AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic - The Big Fat Summon and Dominate/Control Nerf

Seriously stop with the bragging already. Please just state exactly what spells you used to ''solo the abyss from level 17 or 22 or whatever to level 30''? I really don't care about this change but to say soloing the abyss with a pure wiz is easy? state some facts please.

PS if the abyss is that easy to solo maybe toughen it abit...
PS for the record the EMD is now prob the best epic summon...EDK really can't hang at high end areas...except for those people with the ''real EDK '' and not those of us with the version stamped ''made in Taiwan''

Mr T

Was the winterwight nerfed by any chance?

I'm tentatively experimenting with the theory that it's a good thing if undead summons are better than live ones. Hang on, I've said this already...

Ach, what the hell, I've only said it once. I've got another seven repetitions to go.

If there's a real mechanical incentive to use undead, then more people will who otherwise wouldn't. Summoning undead is a political hot potato over in DnD, and RP is to a large extent born from conflict. Not all RP, but the kind that has no conflict in it, uncharitably called giggle-poke, doesn't strike me as being changed by this in any way.

I'm not confident it's going to work, so watch this space.

Anyway, Winterwight is the same, but I couldn't in good conscience leave the Deathless Paragon alone. I hold my hands up and confess, again, that I made it too damagey even in the context of undead>live. I've not got round to beefing up the lowbie generic undeads either; they stink, so I'll have to do that soon.

Uberuce wrote:

I'm tentatively experimenting with the theory that it's a good thing if undead summons are better than live ones. Hang on, I've said this already...

Ach, what the hell, I've only said it once. I've got another seven repetitions to go.

If there's a real mechanical incentive to use undead, then more people will who otherwise wouldn't. Summoning undead is a political hot potato over in DnD, and RP is to a large extent born from conflict. Not all RP, but the kind that has no conflict in it, uncharitably called giggle-poke, doesn't strike me as being changed by this in any way.

I'm not confident it's going to work, so watch this space.

Anyway, Winterwight is the same, but I couldn't in good conscience leave the Deathless Paragon alone. I hold my hands up and confess, again, that I made it too damagey even in the context of undead>live. I've not got round to beefing up the lowbie generic undeads either; they stink, so I'll have to do that soon.

I'd support making undead better than live ones. On tat note I don't use undead, either >.>

Yurell wrote:

Can the efreet get its old portrait back? Not having a portrait makes my party list look ugly.

Ach, balls. I must have used a custom one thinking it was default NWN. Fixysoon.

Uberuce wrote:

Yurell wrote:

Can the efreet get its old portrait back? Not having a portrait makes my party list look ugly.

Ach, balls. I must have used a custom one thinking it was default NWN. Fixysoon.

Or you could dump it in the download pack.

Shouldnt undead be just different, not necessarily better?

If you ave exactly the same stats as everyone else, and you're undead you are better - immune to mind spells and crits, for example

Kendera wrote:

Okay, I'd love for you to show me this, because I call this straight (censored). I'm not exactly amazing at soloing much of anything with Kaylee- but the only thing my EMD can take on is friggin mind flayers.

Thats after Being buffed with
mage armor-
stone bone-
Extended haste-
empowered cats grace-
empowered bulls strength-
blackguards bulls strength-
Empowered Neg Energy Burst-

Hits around 46 AC with 34 AB. It'd be different if I was a cleric, because then I could Shield of Faith it to 50 AC. . . but the Abyss and Actand would still destroy it. Quickly.

Gets its ass kicked everywhere except mindflayers.
Add a well placed dom, and you could take everything down, but that only leaves the dominating mages as overpowered. Thanks for -screwing- the rest.

Show me your numbers, because now I'm irritated.

Summon 9 gets eaten at higher up places, as it should be. Gate is friggin horrific too, and the only thing my cleric uses it for is to momentarily distract something so I can kick it while it's busy.

You forgot Lesser mind blank, GMW, Stoneskin, Improved Invisibility, Protection from elements, Protection from Alignment, Endurance, Flame weapon and Shield.

That's only the turn-based buffs though. You could add several round-based buffs as well to that, if one were so inclined.

What was it Tormak said again...?

Minus Shield - caster only

Imp invis is like one of the most important buffs - it instantly doubles the amount of time your summon will live for.

are people seriusly afraid that mages are mortally wounded as a class now?...

X)

Blackdragon12121 wrote:

Minus Shield - caster only

you can feed it a potion of it.. if you -really- want to.

I don't know why you would cept on a boss fight.

Apparently that just pops Shield onto the caster. I think I remember the people who found this out saying True Strike had the same bug, assuming it's a bug. It's a sensible decision if it's deliberate on account of the way summons don't stop to drink potions, so let's be generous and praise Bioware for once.

Quote:

Shouldnt undead be just different, not necessarily better?

Well, because of their 1/2 BAB progression and their immunities, they're always going to be inclined towards more tankiness than the outsiders on their sneakable, crittable, mindspellable full BAB.

Now, since I've made the outsiders and dragons less cannony, the undeads are already looking a little better, but I've more work to do there yet, methinkles.

Indeed the summon 7's on the good and evil alignment need to be smote with your nerf wand.

Casting GMW on the MD doesn't do anything, so it's just a waste of time. Unless they've been nerfed there aswell now. <.<

That forum filter you have that blocks all my posts? Where do I get one? I've been looking for a forum Ignore button for years....

Uhhh... why did you nerf all the undead summons, mistah?

Mr T wrote:

Seriously stop with the bragging already. Please just state exactly what spells you used to ''solo the abyss from level 17 or 22 or whatever to level 30''? I really don't care about this change but to say soloing the abyss with a pure wiz is easy? state some facts please.

PS if the abyss is that easy to solo maybe toughen it abit...
PS for the record the EMD is now prob the best epic summon...EDK really can't hang at high end areas...except for those people with the ''real EDK '' and not those of us with the version stamped ''made in Taiwan''

Mr T

Death Armor, Pseudo Dragon, EMD, mass haste, imp invisibilty, 7x castings of dominate and praying for a low roll, standard buff set, Neg Burst, stones bones, wiltings, empowered IGMS, premonition, Empower Lesser Missile Storm and others i can't remember

The character was a pure wizard.
10/bludgeon resist, 5/- slashing resist, 10/- piercing resist.
5/5 soak cloak.

The character had 300 HP.

It took me roughly 1 hour to go from end to end (ie the merchant), not incuding the 30 minute wait and break i took at the caravan whilst a group went through ahead of me.

I rested three or four times.

I was level 23.

Note: This was done before the Abyss upgrade. I don't believe i'd be able to do it with the Uces X-blow types now there preventing me from running around in circles provoking AoO's.

On a side note: I dunno whether to count that last as another extrapolation on the undead thing. If it does it means you have six left.

I, as many others, do believe that mages are "slightly" unbalanced on Amia, both in PvP and PvM. And in my opinion, the nerf has made a major balancing change that perhaps would even things a little bit more between meleers and mages.

Although, I don't think the Summonerf was necessary, infact, I think the nerf, and any other nerfs to come might proved as a big mistake.

I'm not suggesting to forbid the nerfing policy. I just feel that with all of the ranting and argueing over the effectiveness of this nerf, you're all forgetting one thing - Amia is a role-playing server, not a PvP arena server. And because of that I think that every nerf/change you make on the server shouldn't be just looked at from a balancing aspect, but also from the opinions of the players, what do ~they~ feel about such change? - Because really, it's the players who endure all the nerfs eventually, and I think we lost too many good RP'ers to not keep that in mind.

The way I see it, more than we strive for balance between classes (Which is virtually impossible), we strive to make the server a better place for all players. And seeing a lot of the responses here against the nerf I fear that we're going the opposite way. I think the number of posts despising the nerf alone, should alert the DM's of it's bad outcome. Think about it... people who support a nerf wouldn't be so disappointed and frustrated if the nerf wouldn't go through, but if it would, people who against it might be. And in this case, as a few people mentioned before, the ones who mostly suffer from this change are the common RP'ers who got their main PC ruined while powerbuilds are, and always will be.

On one of my first days on Amia I'v witnessed a sorcerer beating the crap out of 6(!) epic/pre-epic characters on a single Arena fight (before the 23summonerf). It was followed by a very amusing RP and we all, both the pawned characters, the sorcerer and I, had a lot of fun out of it. - What I'm trying to say is that, in my opinion, having fun and enjoying an interesting RP shouldn't be always linked to the level of balance among classes. Some would say that it is, but again, the number of posts against this nerf makes me doubt that.

I dunno.. maybe I'm wrong and I look at this nerf with too meaningful prespective. But i'v noticed lately that a lot of RP'ers have left Amia because of harsh attitude and irrational decisions of the DM staff, and I just fear this is one of those decisions.

Dammit, wizards, sorcerers and clerics are still the most überest classes! That rant has damaged my eyes already.

Daniel wrote:

<snip>

Actually i have a feeling the Majority of the server are actually in favor or at least unconcerned in the slightest about the nerf and thats its the same group of douchebags plainly not getting it thats caused this topic to get to 10 pages and caused Uce to repeat himself on so many occasions.

AS an RP server that allows pvp it requires the balancing of classes. End of argument.

Daniel wrote:

I'm trying to say is that, in my opinion, having fun and enjoying an interesting RP shouldn't be always linked to the level of balance among classes. Some would say that it is, but again, the number of posts against this nerf makes me doubt that..

Have a look here at my Buildmonkey post, the tenth one down, I think: http://www.amiaworld.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=569360 Now, put your hand over mages. See the mix of joygasm, happy and sad colours on everyone else? That's good. If there's any RP stemming from variety in class's strengths and weaknesses, then two things would be bad: a screenful of green in that post; and one class being nothing but joygasm and happy colours.

I already said in that post that it's only because I defined Pass as magebuffs that they didn't get Honours, and (once I found out about it) I simply didn't want to tell people about the strength of dominate/Control, so they didn't get the Pass those spells granted all the way to 30.

Take your hand off. Boom, there's the problem. When one class can RPly lord it over everyone else and the engine backs them up, it's time to change the engine. Some people appeal to PnP to demonstrate mages should be that world-ruley, but becoming an epic mage is 2938348 times easier here than in PnP. Others just assert it and leave it at that. Neither argument convinces me.

If one does not believe any RP stems from balance, then I don't understand why there's complaints, except in terms of pure action gaming.

If someone considers it fair from a purely numbercrunching perspective that one group is demonstrably much better than any other, then I am just baffled. I don't understand how that can be described as balanced in a multiplayer game with heterogeneous classes. I guess I've got nothing else to do put pull rank. I've got module access and they don't.

In my experience, powergamers will happily stink to high heaven and leech from parties for thirty levels if it means they're uber at bosses/PvP come close of play. First off, you can't leech from a party when solo. More importantly, powergamers don't solo for XP; parties are better, and mages rule when played well in party. A person who got most of his XP solo might think he's a powergamer...but really he's not. Antisocial failures lose out, powergamers don't care.

Quote:

And in this case, as a few people mentioned before, the ones who mostly suffer from this change are the common RP'ers who got their main PC ruined while powerbuilds are, and always will be.

Ruined at solo PvMob. And that RP you get when you're soloing...doesn't it require imaginary friends? Can't solo != can't RP.
Well, I suppose I've ruined the RP of being in a party and laughing as your summon/dominate/control outperforms the dedicated but not powerbuilt tanks until they get the levels needed to catch up.

Your example of the Sorc owning in PvP is not a problem; since the classes aren't going to be the same, someone is going to have to be best at it, and I see no reason why it shouldn't be mages.

Becoming an epic level mage would be an accomplishment if we had Pnp death rules, and started pc's at level 1.

And by all that is fun and enjoyable, I'm glad we don't.

TormakSaber wrote:

And by all that is fun and enjoyable, I'm glad we don't.

Yeah, dying in PnP really sucks.

Although once there was an NPC willing to raise a party member (I was DM), but when they found out the cost one said "I'd rather die!".
Naturally, the NPC accepted this arrangement :D

Mages are excessively powerful because the engine makes them so. They may be 'crap' at low levels, but the problem is in the server not everyone is moving at the same rate, and balance issues really come into play when you have a large aggregate of players in the epic levels.

Yurell wrote:

They may be 'crap' at low levels

Once a wizard gets level 3 and a sorceror gets level 4 they become nigh invulnerable at low levels. Panther + Summon = faster xp than any other class at the same level can obtain solo while the wiz/sorc sits underneath invisibility.

I wonder how many pure mages withe Epic Spell Focus: Conjuration will be vying for rebuilds as PMs or Death Domain clerics so they can have the unnerfed Undead summons. It's all in the name of RP after all! :roll:

MoshingChris wrote:

Yurell wrote:

They may be 'crap' at low levels

Once a wizard gets level 3 and a sorceror gets level 4 they become nigh invulnerable at low levels. Panther + Summon = faster xp than any other class at the same level can obtain solo while the wiz/sorc sits underneath invisibility.

Unless they get crit by a kobold and get 1-shot.

And players say that mages are weak offensively? For a taste of true power take a level 10-12 party down the Temple of Malar as I did the other day. Pack plenty of butter and jam. Those pygmy mages have started working for Tefal and turn out toast faster than any electric device you've got on the kitchen counter. :lol:

I'm going back, I'm going prepared, and I'm taking the biggest damned water cannon I can lay my hands on....and I fear that might not be enough!

Jan Busta wrote:

And players say that mages are weak offensively? For a taste of true power take a level 10-12 party down the Temple of Malar as I did the other day. Pack plenty of butter and jam. Those pygmy mages have started working for Tefal and turn out toast faster than any electric device you've got on the kitchen counter. :lol:

I'm going back, I'm going prepared, and I'm taking the biggest damned water cannon I can lay my hands on....and I fear that might not be enough!

Hey, if you're the first thing a prepared mage comes across your dead ... mages can do intense damage against their first and second spawn, but after a while they need to rest since damage can't be kept up ad infinitum (not after just two spawns though

)

Its good malar finally is a bit dangerous esp solo. Funnily enough, those mages have very few hp so if you charge them down they end up fireballing themselves to death.

Oh and at the level you mentioned, Evocation is still useful, especially when you have 5 or so castings of fireball per mage.

Evocation controls the Sunburst. He who controls the Sunburst controls the Universe.

So has the world ended for mages as we know it yet?

Probably has, after all are there no new massages

Last edited by Azrael on Thu, Apr 02 2009, 9:52 AM, edited 3 times in total.

The Cobbit wrote:

You know, I really should stop using analogies. I suck at them. But what the hell, I'm already in this deep...

You know how you have different gear for different sets of spawns? The gear you have set up for the Broggie Manor probably isn't the same set up as, say, the Abyss or Actand.

So, just like you have to change out gear to combat something that might be harder, you'll have to change out summons for disabler or explodey spells.

Yeah, I totally suck at analogizing, but I swear I have a point in there somewhere, if you follow me.

...3 days later (or more) ^^

yes you mean like people change their spells and summons around to suit the diffrent areas they hunt, just like (everyone else does) with gear. Yes, also true.

...the gear point still remains valid.

"Things to Change:

Then that means (edit:we need to make it so) the summon(s) gained at lvl 21 need to start out at a lvl21 power-level and (as the character levels up) progressively increase in power until lvl 30, so finally at level 30 they are still useful, and using lvl30 'gear' at lvl 30."

Instead of what is being done currently..which is nerf the over-powered lvl21 gear because it is the ceiling used by lvl 30's and you don't want lvl 21's having so much strength.

I love common sence...and analogy's too. *nod nod*

Uberuce wrote:

Anyway, Winterwight is the same, but I couldn't in good conscience leave the Deathless Paragon alone. I hold my hands up and confess, again, that I made it too damagey even in the context of undead>live. I've not got round to beefing up the lowbie generic undeads either; they stink, so I'll have to do that soon.

After Testing on my Death Domain Cleric, the Deathless Paragon now is not only Less Damagy (19-20 Crit range instead of 17-20 Crit Range. Understandable) but now has 6 Less AC (was able to buff it to 52 AC before, now only 46 Without Haste). for a Summon that requires a gimping of a Cleric Why does it become Less than EDK now?

Ahaha, taking Death Domain required "gimping" your cleric? How? IT's.. free summon.

Uberuce wrote:

Their defensive abilities are almost all untouched, but their AB and damage per hit have taken a dive of between two and five, depending on how epic they are.

6AC is quite a bit of a dive isn't it.

He said "Almost". 52 AC is better than a Tumbletank in standard gear. You need bits of +5 to up that past 50.

TormakSaber wrote:

Ahaha, taking Death Domain required "gimping" your cleric? How? IT's.. free summon.

Taking Death Domain, 27 Levels of Cleric Required, so you can't take Other classes which may Make ones Cleric Survive Longer. I reference you this post made by Galenson

As I said it's a fair trade off. Cleric offencive spells are crap (in comparison to mages) and by getting 28 cleric levels you've effectively thrown away any chance of multiclassing with another class to boost your melee abilities. You can't even get the 3 monk levels for the wisdom AC bonus. It's a damn hard sacrifice which is in turn rewarded with a summon that does it's job.

http://amiaworld.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=35108

And nowhere in my post did I say Almost Tormak. and 52 AC is Better than a Fighter of the same level yes, due to Shield of Faith, and Stone Bones neither of which a Fighter is able to get. If they had the same equivalent to it, then they could surpass the 52 AC easily.

OK... gonna pull a Ruce for a moment.

Just so we're on the same page, what is the job of a summon and what are your credentials for a summon that "does its job"?

The Question of My Definition of a Summon is not what is in question here, and you have sidestepped the Issue completely. The Issue is why Has the Deathless Paragon gotten 6 Less AC, Is now Worse in the AC Department than the equivalent of a EDK (red dragon) Which any mage Arcane or Divine, (Druid, Cleric, Wizard, Sorcerer), or Even the level 29 Gate, When Those can be reached without Devoting ones self to the School required, and any Joe Schmo can cast. If one is Devoted to a school or "Domain", should the Caster, be rewarded for it, such as Necromancers are Rewarded with Mummy Dust going from Minutes to Hours, and Conjurationists EDK going from Rounds to Turns? The AC on The Deathless, is also now LESS than Vampire Viscount was at the same level. It just seems If a Cleric is going to be Devoted to something, They should reap the rewards of it, instead of being offered a lesser summon than someone who is not devoted to something can recieve.

No, answer my question, because your definition of what a summon's job is, and what a summon needs to do its job, is crucial to this argument. Without understanding where you come from, I can't efectively communicate my stance.

Deadlydread wrote:

It's a damn hard sacrifice which is in turn rewarded with a summon that does it's job.

I believe this is Tormak's point - what is the job you expect a summon to do? Damage soak? Kill everything in your path?

Last edited by Azrael on Thu, Apr 02 2009, 10:30 AM, edited 2 times in total.

TormakSaber wrote:

OK... gonna pull a Ruce for a moment.

Just so we're on the same page, what is the job of a summon and what are your credentials for a summon that "does its job"?

TormakSaber wrote:

No, answer my question, because your definition of what a summon's job is, and what a summon needs to do its job, is crucial to this argument. Without understanding where you come from, I can't efectively communicate my stance.

Tormmy, sorry to say...seems like your setting a trap here, your asking what his/her credentials are? they play nwn...they play amia, they seem to have a logical argument...what else is needed? if they answer your actual 'direct' question you'll probably just say something like "i know more and am more qualified" ..which means the first post was a trap.

...the value of opinions is what matters here, not how high our post count is.

Why do you need their specific definition of 'what a summons job is?' ..logically...because other than a word trap I don't see the point.

Unless you are referring to the most basic answer 'to actually be useful in PvM/Pvp'

...I need more than 1 line posts to understand where your coming from, i rly hope it wasnt a potential flame attack.

Yurell wrote:

Deadlydread wrote:

It's a damn hard sacrifice which is in turn rewarded with a summon that does it's job.

I believe this is Tormak's point - what is the job you expect a summon to do? Damage soak? Kill everything in your path?

This is a subjective question with many answers, a summon can be anything useful that is worth the spellslots/feats, to pick just one use is nothing but a personal flavor or like of how summons should be used. It's the overall usefulness that is to be taken into consideration here.

Yurell wrote:

I believe this is Tormak's point - what is the job you expect a summon to do? Damage soak? Kill everything in your path?

What I feel a summon should do is provide reasonable steady DPS, in contrast to flashy spells that provide high damage then run out quickly.

Things die because of damage. Damage must come from somewhere. Mages should have a way of damaging things will spells. If you could cast a fireball every round instead of binding a being from another plane to your will and letting it swing every round, that would be great -- I hope the Warlock in NWN2 doesn't suck.

Azrael wrote:

Yurell wrote:

Deadlydread wrote:

It's a damn hard sacrifice which is in turn rewarded with a summon that does it's job.

I believe this is Tormak's point - what is the job you expect a summon to do? Damage soak? Kill everything in your path?

This is a subjective question with many answers, a summon can be anything useful that is worth the spellslots/feats, to pick just one use is nothing but a personal flavor or like of how summons should be used. It's the overall usefulness that is to be taken into consideration here.

I believe that's the point. He is complaining that the summon no longer 'does its job', and Tormak is enquiring as to exactly what this 'job' is supposed to be. If it's subjective then it may be doing its job from somebody else's point of view, or from a balance point of view.

A summon is Exactly what It is, If you Practice the arts enough and become skilled enough to Summon an Elemental from its plane, but can only muster enough Strength through your incantations, then you would only be able to summon a lesser elemental, until your incantations are well enough that you are able to bring a greater Elemental from its plane. When you are of Said Strength to Bring in a Dragon (level 21), It reflects that in its current stats. When you are able to bring in a Deathless Paragon (27) It should also reflect those stats, because your incantations/praying/whatever Is more knowledgeable than those than you were at the earlier stage of your life (21). When The Summoning of the 21 is Greater than that of the 27, the Balance and very nature of Summoning itself is thrown off, and Because you are more powerful, you get lesser. Do Spells Themselves not grow in power, such as a 2d8 Spell becoming a 25d8 Spell, or should one be penalized such as the Deathless is having done to it, by you learn up to 20d8, and as you grow in levels, it becomes only 15d8 at max. A summon is Assistance, and sometimes The Summoned being would be more powerful than the caster, Hense Why in Original NWN, Protection from Evil was needed to summon a Balor.

Oh, ok.

I disagree with your entire line of logic, but at least I know you're one of those people who feel a summon should be able to replace a party member, i.e. the people who will bitch about this nerf and to who Ruce says "Thank you for proving my point."

The Big Fat Summon and Dominate/Control Nerf

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