AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic - The Big Fat Summon and Dominate/Control Nerf

What was it before?

Well its strength was 44.AB was 49 if i recall - at least according to the character sheet. I felt satisfied with the 4 feats put into it. Lets be honest. It'll still own the the fire giants but its in the later levels that it'll really start to show...*sigh*

Think of your summons like your gear. Will your awesome gear that you picked up at level 21 still be as awesome at level 30? Probably not. Same should apply for summons. So how do you find awesome level 30 summons? Party with other PCs.

Well, I use my Juggernaut more than I use my EDK anyway. EDK has never been worth those four feats in my opinion, but if your build is completely dependent on that one summon, you fail fail faility fail and big time. Besides, I don't think that the nerf is all that harsh, we should be able to live with it just fine.

Not a good analogy. Depends what your class is. Some classes are ridiculously catered for when it comes to gear and get awesome stuff all the way through from level 1 and remains useful all the way to 30.

Blackdragon12121 wrote:

Well its strength was 44.AB was 49 if i recall - at least according to the character sheet. I felt satisfied with the 4 feats put into it. Lets be honest. It'll still own the the fire giants but its in the later levels that it'll really start to show...*sigh*

Well, not really. If you consider the damage your player tanks will be outputting, the difference will be so slight that it'd take an Uberuce to notice.

Uncle-Opustus wrote:

Well, I use my Juggernaut more than I use my EDK anyway. EDK has never been worth those four feats in my opinion, but if your build is completely dependent on that one summon, you fail fail faility fail and big time. Besides, I don't think that the nerf is all that harsh, we should be able to live with it just fine.

I'll have to agree on that.

Remember when everybody cried out that the nerfs on BBoD and GS would absolutely ruin their characters, and nobody would ever use them again? Seems they still get used well enough to me. Hells, I could go all the way back to when I first arrived at Amia, and people were crying about Shadowdancers being horribly neutered because HiPS was moved to Level 6 SD. Doesn't seem to be much of a problem now.

Just give the changes a try before you cry that your characters are ruined. The designers don't make changes lightly, and put a lot of thought into making sure they're balanced. Ruceyboy probably knows the numbers better than most everyone else on the server, so if he feels this is the way to go, I trust him.

Last edited by Azrael on Thu, Apr 02 2009, 9:34 AM, edited 2 times in total.

The Cobbit wrote:

You know, I really should stop using analogies. I suck at them. But what the hell, I'm already in this deep...

You know how you have different gear for different sets of spawns? The gear you have set up for the Broggie Manor probably isn't the same set up as, say, the Abyss or Actand.

So, just like you have to change out gear to combat something that might be harder, you'll have to change out summons for disabler or explodey spells.

Yeah, I totally suck at analogizing, but I swear I have a point in there somewhere, if you follow me.

...3 days later (or more) ^^

yes you mean like people change their spells and summons around to suit the diffrent areas they hunt, just like (everyone else does) they do with gear as well. Yes, also true.

...the gear point still remains valid.

Things to Change:

Then that means the summon(s) gained at lvl 21 need to start out at a lvl21 power-level and (as the character levels up) progressively increase in power until lvl 30, so finally at level 30 they are still useful, and using lvl30 'gear' at lvl 30.

You know, I really should stop using analogies. I suck at them. But what the hell, I'm already in this deep...

You know how you have different gear for different sets of spawns? The gear you have set up for the Broggie Manor probably isn't the same set up as, say, the Abyss or Actand.

So, just like you have to change out gear to combat something that might be harder, you'll have to change out summons for disabler or explodey spells.

Yeah, I totally suck at analogizing, but I swear I have a point in there somewhere, if you follow me.

Kendera wrote:

I still disagree with this. EMD's AB was horrific as it was. All of the high level summons had terrible AB. Shredding summons, means that I wasted feats. Dissatisfied doesnt even begin to describe my genuine reaction to our 'distractions' being made overwhelmingly useless. I'll play around with it in game, when I'm able to come back, and will whine more then.

-N.S

Ahahaha

No, you are wrong. This is a place where opinions can actually be right and wrong and this opinion is wrong, sorry.

The Cobbit wrote:

You know, I really should stop using analogies. I suck at them. But what the hell, I'm already in this deep...

You know how you have different gear for different sets of spawns? The gear you have set up for the Broggie Manor probably isn't the same set up as, say, the Abyss or Actand.

So, just like you have to change out gear to combat something that might be harder, you'll have to change out summons for disabler or explodey spells.

Yeah, I totally suck at analogizing, but I swear I have a point in there somewhere, if you follow me.

I usually go for the one size fits all for my gearset because I'm lazy >.>
Can still survive Actand, though! That's got to count for something.

But yes, changing gearsets is important if you want to be really good, just as changing spells and even spell-type as you progress to different regions.

A momentary discourse: I realize I'm being a jackass in this topic, but it's become ever apparent to me that if you read this entire topic and still don't understand why it's being done, no amount of logic is going to convince you otherwise, ever.

Well you can't compare gear with summons in an mage topic anyways..I know my sorcerer wore the same thing from level 6 through to level 25..gear is justa top off.. I already know a sorc can solo maxi naked.

But I'll crck out rith and see what I thought, I was actually disapointed last time I took out my gate, and not because it wasn't hitting much, it just.. died had no staying power.. maybe Maxi was getting lukcy, but I know I used to be able to go through all the barrows with th trillions of ghosts and still ahve enough umph to take out maxi. so maybe now I have to rest,a nd keep an eye onmy gate to unsummon him before he dies (tormak scarred poor rith for life with summoning and unsummoning.)

see how Rith handles it anyways

If it makes any difference, I had it explained to be in really simplistic laymans terms because I don't understand number crunching or caster summons for the most part. It came down to 3 things in my brain.

1. Trust Uberuce. Looking at what he's done behind the scenes, I can't tell you when I've seen someone who's done more neat stuff monster wise and I don't think he'd screw anyone who didn't deserve it fully. How many of you people are walking around with his build suggestions, hmm?

2. Not that much is being changed. Just a few little things here and there to level the playing field and make you use your brains which I've found, by and large, Amia is ripe with. Smarts!

3. Nothing done on Amia is worth a nuclear size stroke.

Peace and love peace and love
La

Lalelilolu wrote:

1. Trust Uberuce. Looking at what he's done behind the scenes, I can't tell you when I've seen someone who's done more neat stuff monster wise and I don't think he'd screw anyone who didn't deserve it fully. How many of you people are walking around with his build suggestions, hmm?

That's the one I'm going with. I have o idea exactly how much of an effect this will have, but I trust Ruce's judgement.

Did the silver EDK have 49 fucking AB prior to the changes? Is that a fucking joke? >.<

That's utterly retarded. Really. And some of you guys are fucking whining about it? Seriously?

You do realize that your average level 30 WM is looking at self-buffed 51-52 AB, tops?

Lulz. I has EDK, it hits just as good as any WM, has twice the amount of HP, practically the same AC, I can buffz it with premonition and stoneskin and it only cost me 4 feats to take.

Eat that, all you silly meleers! Start playing casters, you stupid fucks.

The ignorance, lack of knowledge and whiney bitch attitudes in this topic disgust me.

Last edited by Galenson on Sun, Mar 29 2009, 1:50 AM, edited 1 time in total.

I still find this whole ordeal funny. I'll place a bet most of you complaining have never tried to level with neutral summons before. The Jann, the Clockwork Spider, the Effigy and the white slaad (17, 22 and 27) will make you cry when you compared them to Azers, Efreets, celestial minotaurs, planetars, balor lords, mordikainen's swords.... the list goes on.

Woohoo! Unbuffable White slaad claws with on hit disease vs a Planetar's greatsword that hits divine damage and can be buffed properly with GMW and (if you use it) Flame weapon. I know which one I'd choose.

Welcome to the level playing field. Adapt and move on.

Mr Mago wrote:

Did the silver EDK have 49 (censored) AB prior to the changes? Is that a (censored) joke? >.<

That's utterly retarded. Really. And some of you guys are (censored) whining about it? Seriously?

You do realize that your average level 30 WM is looking at self-buffed 51-52 AB, tops?

Lulz. I has EDK, it hits just as good as any WM, has twice the amount of HP, practically the same AC, I can buffz it with premonition and stoneskin and it only cost me 4 feats to take.

Eat that, all you silly meleers! Start playing casters, you stupid (censored).

The ignorance, lack of knowledge and whiney bitch attitudes in this topic disgust me.

*sigh* Chill Mago. Dont have an apoplexy. No EDK hits as good as any weapon master. Gross hyperbole right there.

*sigh*...You do know premonition is only usable on the CASTER...dumbo

Yeah, the neutral summons are...interesting to say the least...

[quote]Did the silver EDK have 49 (censored) AB prior to the changes? Is that a (censored) joke? >.<
That's utterly retarded. Really. And some of you guys are (censored) whining about it? Seriously?
[quote]

Seriously how many (censored) times?! 1. I don't care about the changes...really I don't. 2. But this is retarded as you put it. If your WM can't beat an EDK in a fight then you're doing it wrong. It does NOT hit harder than a WM, and its a friggin EPIC spell that cost 4 feats!
If anything its strength should remain but the duration shoulda been cut. Its a friggin dragon for peats sake...now it just a glorified fat-assed lizard with a severe case of halitosis - not worth an Epic spell and 4 feats AT ALL.

PS Mr Mago premonition caster only :roll:

..as the immortal Tormak said...if you don't know what you're talking about please refrain from comment.

PS my mage was a neutral necro and yeah the neutral summons were...well lets just say ''different'' and no i've not been complaining merely providing an alternate perspective

.

Mr T

It's been proven that a buffed EDK prior to the tweaks (-after- it's used its aura and breath widgets) can stand its ground against a melee cleric and beat it solely on damage vs HP alone. Weapon masters crit alot more often then clerics which depending on the weapon can kill the EDK quickly.

But.

If buffed correctly, EDKs used to be on par with melee clerics fully buffed -permanently- due to the sheer amount of damage and the consistency they hit things.

Till the cleric dev crits it and it dies.

I'll do some 'testing' tonight. But I highly doubt I'll find something different than what I expect. I'm not really concerned.

Oh, I know premonition only works on the caster. I was mocking you, in case you didn't notice the sarcasm.

And a couple of you still don't get it.

Aeriel and I thought of doing tournaments with the EDK, offering 1 million to whomever could beat our combined buffed dragon.

That's how good it was.

Keep practicing and maybe it might start to resemble mocking as opposed to idiocy.

Did the WM get the combined buffs too?

Are you kidding me? Lulz.

There has been some insane over reacting to this... 'Never using my mage again'; that is the type of thing my girlfriend's nephew says when he doesn't get his way. He's four. If you really want to abandon a character for something like that then please go to a different server. Not intended to be a flame or an insult but get some commitment for gods sake. Or go to an action server.

Good, I was tired of soloing everything anyways....

Seriously, not that much of a hit, I found myself able to easily able to solo any area on the server, aside from Actand, with my level 30 wizard using only a few heal kits once in a while.

I know most characters that put themselves in melee combat find themselves chugging heal pots even when buffed up, out solo, they must use alot more.

And if a few people build a melee build that can take down the whole server, good on them, as it is now, a mage can do that with little problem, with the right spells.

My character has a tough time finding party members, but then again I'll admit I never had to look for them if I decided I needed something or decided to someplace on the server.

One problem, even a fully buffed EDK can loose a to a properly built melee build because the breath can be interupted like a spell, so the EDK will constantly be trying to use its breath attack and it will be constantly interupted

Halecta wrote:

One problem, even a fully buffed EDK can loose a to a properly built melee build because the breath can be interupted like a spell, so the EDK will constantly be trying to use its breath attack and it will be constantly interupted

And while that melee build is fruitlessly trying to knockdown the EDK's 600+ hp in the mean time he's been Mords'd, Sunbeamed, Subburst, Sitting under a Storm of Veangance, Earthquaked, Timestopped, IGMS'ed, Wailed, Dominated, Bigbied, Level Drained, Neg Bursted.

Your point is invalidated because the objective of the nerf was so Wizards and Cleric weren't the best at everything. The nerf had nothing to do with PvP and i don't know why people are bringing up direct confrontations between summons and PC's. Read all the posts in the topic before making statements.

My Cleric never could solo abyss, Beholders, and Mind Flayer using just EDK and Invisibility

For Frost Giants and Firegiants you dont even need summons for those

However my unbuffed 23 Cleric/6 Fighter has the same AB (35)as the Prismatic Dragon (35 after power attack), and its not even a power build

Halecta wrote:

However my unbuffed 23 Cleric/6 Fighter has the same AB (35)as the Prismatic Dragon (35 after power attack), and its not even a power build

And that seems a very sensible thing to go for, balance wise. Even the hint of a possible suggestion that a summon should be comparable to a powerbuild PC makes me shiver.

Mind that what you don't see is that the unbuffed AB is really 40: It won't always run power attack.

TormakSaber wrote:

Kendera wrote:

I still disagree with this. EMD's AB was horrific as it was. All of the high level summons had terrible AB. Shredding summons, means that I wasted feats. Dissatisfied doesnt even begin to describe my genuine reaction to our 'distractions' being made overwhelmingly useless. I'll play around with it in game, when I'm able to come back, and will whine more then.

-N.S

Ahahaha

No, you are wrong. This is a place where opinions can actually be right and wrong and this opinion is wrong, sorry.

EMD had 33-34 AB with maximum buffs(Painful to do).
It's (censored).

You're fine on MSN, but you're an asshole on the forums. You should probably cut it out, and follow the same code of conduct we're all supposed to adhere too.

More to come when I'm able to log in and see it for myself.

I was able to buff my Mummy Dust, as a mage with *10 caster levels* to a point where it could comfortably solo the Abyss and do reasonably well in Actand. I don't know where you're gettin' your numbers from, hun.

You soloed the abyss with a buffed mummy dust? Cleric or wiz? Has the abyss been weakened in the last 2 years? I just remembered that back then you really needed a party. I'll have to try this for myself

Can the efreet get its old portrait back? Not having a portrait makes my party list look ugly.

Blackdragon12121 wrote:

You soloed the abyss with a buffed mummy dust? Cleric or wiz? Has the abyss been weakened in the last 2 years? I just remembered that back then you really needed a party. I'll have to try this for myself

Wiz/PM/fighter.

Yurell wrote:

Can the efreet get its old portrait back? Not having a portrait makes my party list look ugly.

Please post 'buggy' stuff in Things to Change. Make some "Uce, you sloppy bastard!" topic for it.

Dev Disco wrote:

Yurell wrote:

Can the efreet get its old portrait back? Not having a portrait makes my party list look ugly.

Please post 'buggy' stuff in Things to Change. Make some "Uce, you sloppy bastard!" topic for it.

Rightyo, I just figured since everyone else was complaining about the changes here

Mr T wrote:

Quote:

Interposing hand, neg energy burst, level drains, bigbyforcefull

At level 17? you really suggested neg burst (-4 str) good but not Balor pawning good, bigby's? good but if he has mates hello concentration check, and finally level drain... did you *really* suggest one of the worst spells in the game?....

Here's an idea ripped straight from a certain Forum socialite/personality ''please refrain from comment if you don't know what you're talking about''

But in all seriousness make a lvl 17 mage go to the abyss and see what happens...

Mr T

Took a level 17 mage to the abyss, surviveed with ease. Amia's critters are far far far easier than most servers I have played on. The fact you can gear yourself out for anything makes them incredibly strong. If you want a challange for hunting play bonds of blood.

As for the spells mentioned there, just a handfull of what you can use mages have a large arsenal and I didnt mean -just- using a summon 9. What I am saying is that level 9 summon should not have a chance in hell, yet it does from 17 all the way to 30,

TormakSaber wrote:

Blackdragon12121 wrote:

You soloed the abyss with a buffed mummy dust? Cleric or wiz? Has the abyss been weakened in the last 2 years? I just remembered that back then you really needed a party. I'll have to try this for myself

Wiz/PM/fighter.

That must have taken the better part of a day given the AB of that build and EMD. Im guessing dev crit was thrown in there?

Blackdragon12121 wrote:

*sigh* Chill Mago. Dont have an apoplexy. No EDK hits as good as any weapon master. Gross hyperbole right there.

Are we comparing a mage-buffed WM with a mage-buffed EDK?

Brief historical aside: back in the laggy days pre-split the EDK used to be better for about 6 hours of the weekdays, and 10 at weekends, for the simple reason that the server processed summons, then spawns then PCs so no matter how uber you were, when it was badly laggy you'd stand there helpless for entire rounds at a time looking at the spawns standing helpless, every so often drop a nice fat 150+ crit, while in the background the EDK steadily omnomnomed for five times a round.

But that ended with the server split; huzzah for Disco!

So, anyway: mage-buffed WM >>> mage-buffed EDK, sure, but the topic of this thread is a nerf of solo PvMob ability. A mage-buffed WM is by definition not solo, and furthermore it'll be fighting beside a summon(and maybe a dominate too), which even if I'd gone drastic and slapped No Damage on their weapons and claws, would still cut incoming flak down. I don't get why you're talking about a WM in a mage's party, if it's what you mean.

The relevant comparison is self-buffed tank vs mage-buffed EDK+dominate. The mage is just flat-out better at getting solo XP because the selfbuffed tank either fights easy junk for 20XP/kill or tries the Abyss and is killed by the first spawn. That itself wouldn't bother me, but they're also flat-out better at everything else*. A crock. Hopefully this nerf goes some way to fixing that problem.

*Tell a lie. They're not as good at 'being buffed by a Bard and then becoming godly' Pure tanks rock bells at that.

I count that as seven times Uce has said the same thing using different comparisons.

Wyjyn asked me what I do outside of Amia, and for work, one of my two jobs is out-of-school care for kids in the 4-12 age range.

I'm using work skills, here. Mostly the one wher I have superhuman levels of patience.

Set it so you either have a famillar+summon or familliar+dom. impossible to have familliar+summin+dom.

Win!

Okay, I'd love for you to show me this, because I call this straight bullshit. I'm not exactly amazing at soloing much of anything with Kaylee- but the only thing my EMD can take on is friggin mind flayers.

Thats after Being buffed with
mage armor-
stone bone-
Extended haste-
empowered cats grace-
empowered bulls strength-
blackguards bulls strength-
Empowered Neg Energy Burst-

Hits around 46 AC with 34 AB. It'd be different if I was a cleric, because then I could Shield of Faith it to 50 AC. . . but the Abyss and Actand would still destroy it. Quickly.

Gets its ass kicked everywhere except mindflayers.
Add a well placed dom, and you could take everything down, but that only leaves the dominating mages as overpowered. Thanks for -screwing- the rest.

Show me your numbers, because now I'm irritated.

Summon 9 gets eaten at higher up places, as it should be. Gate is friggin horrific too, and the only thing my cleric uses it for is to momentarily distract something so I can kick it while it's busy.

I looked at the combat log and the EDK never got above 39 attack bonus, and the prismatic always uses Power Attack

If MoshingChris' abilty to count is to be trusted(and I see no reason why it should not) I've said seven times that I intended to reduce the ability of mages to solo mobs.

So if your complaint is that I've reduced your ability to solo mobs, then: Thank you.

And I haven't. I've said twice that I've left the Duster alone; if you were a Rock'n'Rolla Coven Controlla, then you'd find you couldn't buff him to 60AC and 50AB, 40 damage/hit any more, but you apparently aren't.

Much needed change. My first pure wizard on Amia solo'ed from 23 to 30 in the Abyss just with a dragon, all alone. Died a couple times but that was just a minor inconvenience.

Oh, before I forget: guys, please, please don't do what certain players have done in the past and log on, play as badly as you can, then report as if you were playing like a pro.

I have to log on, try to replicate the result, sometimes I need to grab a DM to give me a temporary rebuild or alignment tweak, and then I find it was all BS, and then the DM has to set me back exactly the way I was, and I'd rather be out RPing or powergaming with builds that were actually a fun challenge to pwn in, and I'm sure we'd all rather the DM was out...you know...DMing.

I have one conjuror anymore, and I just feel that its too easy, with summons that is.

Enchanter/evocater build gave me much fun. Both in PvM/PvP as well as in rp. I just love charming people and dominating them to do what I tell them to do.

Conjuration is more than just summons, heal spells are conjuration plus there is conjuration spells ment to dmg. With my druid, I took conjuration because I wanted stronger heals for rp thing, then I realised that it was kind of a powerbuild. I have summons + heal + conjuration dmg spells.

Abjuror was fun, didnt have much trouple getting a party. All I needed to do was to keep everyone buffed, and then I just sat back and allowed them to do the work.

Why everyone cares so much for soloing, in party its much more fun anyway! Better exp, gold, loto change and also you can rp or just chat with people.

The Big Fat Summon and Dominate/Control Nerf

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