AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic - The Big Fat Summon and Dominate/Control Nerf

Amarice-Elaraliel wrote:

No offense Ruce, I truly admire your builds... but yes most of your builds are by far more powerful than any wizard with his/her summons.

I concede the point that I can grind XP faster alone than a mage reading a book while his EDK fannies about trying to eat stuff it's Feared into a little corner, but that's a pisspoor way of playing so I never did it; my mages worked status and my Clerics fought too. You need to compare like with like.

By level 27-30, when their AB/HP, Epic Dodge, Epic Damage Reduct III or Devcrit DC have matured, sometimes my non casters work faster, but that's the Spires Fallacy again. Up until then, those builds have invariably lost the XP/hour race against my mages/Clerics with their summons/dominates.

Last edited by Yurell on Sat, Mar 28 2009, 9:09 AM, edited 1 time in total.

Don't people compare mages "sitting in invis doing nothing with no risk" while their EDK does the work, though?
If that argument is going to be used, then the comparison is with the mages doing nothing.

That said, mages should be working: if they want to level quickly (although mine don't - I take security over speed any day).

I am getting flashbacks to Aleph. The slippery slope she predicted is happening.

What's wrong with people having an easy time hunting exactly? Not everyone cares to powerbuild or have dozens of gearsets. Some people just like to buff their summon and have a fun relaxed time bashing monsters.

How does the way someone else hunts affect other people's experience that much that it needs to be nerfed?

I agree with everything Amarice said.

Yurell wrote:

Don't people compare mages "sitting in invis doing nothing with no risk" while their EDK does the work, though?
If that argument is going to be used, then the comparison is with the mages doing nothing.

That said, mages should be working (although mine don't - I take security over speed any day).

What is a risk a Ruce-build wm faces? He could literally go afk and let autoattack take care of everything while he gets a drink.

I edited mine because I realised I left out an important part of the sentence: namely my point.

And just in case my intended tone wasn't clear, I am against the argument I provided at the beginning.

Please keep in mind that we just added a scripted system with the sole purpose of advancing RP. We don't only focus on game balance and we don't only focus on adding RP stuff in, but we do both.

I find it quite unfair to "forget" the jobs system when criticising the more technical balancing.

I despise this. I wont up and leave, but I beleive that this is a particularly rediculous move. The high end summons didnt survive as it was, and now you've nerfed them. The problem with summons was that you could solo with them almost exclusively until level 20. Adjust the lower, not the higher.

Stop nerfing things.

-N.S

//Edit- This isnt entirely biased either- I dont use any summon but my mummy dust, and havent since about level 21. It's just rating their survivability, not in soloing, but even in a party.

Nekhy wrote:

Please keep in mind that we just added a scripted system with the sole purpose of advancing RP. We don't only focus on game balance and we don't only focus on adding RP stuff in, but we do both.

I find it quite unfair to "forget" the jobs system when criticising the more technical balancing.

That wasn't against the developer/DM-Staff but against the players who nowdays mainly complain about classes to be nerfed or empowered.

I know some really nice RP-items, areas and scripts have been added recently, and I do really appreciate and love that.

Seems my wording got out a bit wrong, sorry about that.

And I do not forget the good things that are done... that's the reason I'm still here.

Yurell wrote:

Don't people compare mages "sitting in invis doing nothing with no risk" while their EDK does the work, though?
If that argument is going to be used, then the comparison is with the mages doing nothing.

Again, compare like with like.

If you were ever to see me operating my pure tanks when getting XP, you'd see me hunched rigid with tension over the keyboard watching all my very short lived item buffs like a new mother watching a sickly infant, and clicking furiously to tie up critters on the terrain's chokepoints.

You'd also have seen me spend hours per week camping shops for epics' castoffs, trawling around the other ones for the best they sell normally, Mythalling it up and bankrupting myself on potions and scrolls.

That's only just competition for a summon that a Recommend button mage gets by default.

The book reading mage needs to be compared to the tank doing as Zante said "literally go afk and let autoattack take care of everything while he gets a drink" , cannot be a Ruce-build and cannot be kitted out under my supervision.

I do not believe a badly made, under-equipped tank, played semi-afk, is any match for a magebuffed summon. He does zero damage because he's dead.

But so what? The inability to solo is not a balance issue.

"I can't solo, but I'm awesome in a party" = balanced, but that's irrelevant because "I can't solo. Full stop" is fine by us.

It certainly makes "I can solo, and I'm awesome in a party, and I'm awesome at PvP and I'm awesome at bossrunning" look a little unfair.

Complaining that "I'm awesome in a party, and I'm awesome at PvP and I'm awesome at bossrunning but I can't solo" is an epic fail of a balance appeal. It's not even going to be true anyway.

Well when I play my mage, like when I play all other classes, I do not do nothing. I also stay aware that the summons are buffed, and healed, I cast spells too and do not -only- let the summons fight. I watch over the rest of the group and make sure to recast the spells that are worn off or disspelled during the hunt.

It's not like I just run behind my summons and pick my nose. But maybe that's just me <.<

I am also very alert during hunting... and if I were not I am dead just like every other hunter.

Maybe I am doing something wrong.

Kendera wrote:

I despise this. I wont up and leave, but I beleive that this is a particularly rediculous move. The high end summons didnt survive as it was, and now you've nerfed them. The problem with summons was that you could solo with them almost exclusively until level 20. Adjust the lower, not the higher.

Stop nerfing things.

-N.S

//Edit- This isnt entirely biased either- I dont use any summon but my mummy dust, and havent since about level 21. It's just rating their survivability, not in soloing, but even in a party.

A summon you gain at level 17 should not be particularly effective ten levels later. He higher-end summons are still viable in epic levels, but they, too, become less effective as you advance in levels. As it should be. You cannot expect something you get at level 21/24 to still perform as well at level 30. That's simply not how it's supposed to be.

I think people severely lack perspective, because they've been so pampered on Amia.

One of my newest chars is a sorc. He dies all the time, because he also casts spells after he sends his buffed edk in.

The spells aren't even effective, I only do it because I want him to be nuker, and blasting stuff with fire and lightning is kind of fun.

My point is that mages would not sit invisible behind their summons if they were effective at doing anything else than buff summons/buff party.

Give mobs lower saves, make them not immune to every element and people might actually be inclined to help their summons out with a chain lightning or meteor storm.

Zante wrote:

One of my newest chars is a sorc. He dies all the time, because he also casts spells after he sends his buffed edk in.

The spells aren't even effective, I only do it because I want him to be nuker, and blasting stuff with fire and lightning is kind of fun.

My point is that mages would not sit invisible behind their summons if they were effective at doing anything else than buff summons/buff party.

Give mobs lower saves, make them not immune to every element and people might actually be inclined to help their summons out with a chain lightning or meteor storm.

Or you could hang back with massive DR, HP and Acid Sheathe that kills any attacker before you die, blind entire spawns with Sunburst, knock them senseless with Thunderclap, Bigby selectively, take out half the spawns (Spires and lower, at least) with Wails, make them wander around with Confusion etc. If you want damage, maximized and empowered Ice Storms are nothing to frown upon, albeit not the best use of spell slots.

I'm not averse to tweaking some saves, if it's deemed smart. It doesn't only affect evocation spells, though. At high levels, monsters have so much more HP than PCs and melee characters deal such obscene damage that increasing the effectiveness of damage spells would make them insane in PvP, among other things.

IronAngel wrote:

A summon you gain at level 17 should not be particularly effective ten levels later. He higher-end summons are still viable in epic levels, but they, too, become less effective as you advance in levels. As it should be. You cannot expect something you get at level 21/24 to still perform as well at level 30. That's simply not how it's supposed to be.

I think people severely lack perspective, because they've been so pampered on Amia.

Hm... I actually agree to this. Yes they are pretty strong on the lower levels.

Personally I was more hinting to the EDK which needs 2 epic feats and is an epic spell.

On second thought... the summon VII-IX shouldn't be that tough on lower levels.. which often is an issue not only for mages who cast them but also when people just buy summon scrolls for "easy leveling".

I guess I now see the real issue here.

At least for the regular summon monster X this gets my seal of approval then. For what it's worth.

I am still skeptical about the epic summons... since yeah... they're epic. *nods*

Last edited by Yurell on Sat, Mar 28 2009, 10:02 AM, edited 1 time in total.

IronAngel wrote:

Zante wrote:

One of my newest chars is a sorc. He dies all the time, because he also casts spells after he sends his buffed edk in.

The spells aren't even effective, I only do it because I want him to be nuker, and blasting stuff with fire and lightning is kind of fun.

My point is that mages would not sit invisible behind their summons if they were effective at doing anything else than buff summons/buff party.

Give mobs lower saves, make them not immune to every element and people might actually be inclined to help their summons out with a chain lightning or meteor storm.

Or you could hang back with massive DR, HP and Acid Sheathe that kills any attacker before you die, blind entire spawns with Sunburst, knock them senseless with Thunderclap, Bigby selectively, take out half the spawns (Spires and lower, at least) with Wails, make them wander around with Confusion etc. If you want damage, maximized and empowered Ice Storms are nothing to frown upon, albeit not the best use of spell slots.

I'm not averse to tweaking some saves, if it's deemed smart. It doesn't only affect evocation spells, though. At high levels, monsters have so much more HP than PCs and melee characters deal such obscene damage that increasing the effectiveness of damage spells would make them insane in PvP, among other things.

That. Mages simply cannot do the obscene amounts of damage necessary. They can, however, use other approaches, as Ruce mentions earlier, and Iron does here.

Well, you still get EDK/rounds at 21, and an all-day EDK at 24. And in areas where it can move, it's no secret it's a good party member even at 30, if not on par with melee-built characters. Taking some of that DPS away means it's still a viable damagesoak, flanking-aid and a nice bit of damage dished, but it's not quite as gross.

It still does get stuck in almost any notable area for that lvl.

That said, I don't care much if it's nerfed, but then I wouldn't want to put 4 feats into it and 2 of them beeing epic.

Had I known that I had built the chara differently... with auto quicken or some other epic spells.

Last edited by Zante on Sat, Mar 28 2009, 10:10 AM, edited 1 time in total.

I found myself to really like the sahaquin (sp) because of their vulnerability to lighning. Fire and frost giants both have well deffined vulnerabilities that a mage can exploit.

That's something I would like to see more, to have all mobs some weakness a mage can exploit, in the high epic areas.

Actand/abyss... I found none of my spells really doing anything. Bigby's get resisted 50% of the time, and they save against neg energy burst, evards, wails most of the time.

And agreed with above, with all the nerfs mages are getting as of late, free rebuilds should be considered.

That is true. They are not very grateful areas for the offensive mage, I'll give you that. I've got no solutions as to how to amend that and still keep them more challenging than lower level areas, and not make it considerably easier for parties with the typical tactics, at the same time.

That's irrelevant to the summon change, since I take it you don't want to sit back, buffing and summoning. >_>

Blackdragon12121 wrote:

Mr Mago wrote:

TormakSaber wrote:

Re: Sorc/pally/rogue: It's debated if the 26(7)/1/2 or the 26(7)/2/1 is better, even among the Paladhooms.

Actually, neither of those two are the best

Tihihihihi.

So...you dont consider those builds powerbuilds but rather only the very secret, specific combination or sorc/pally/rog? Interesting.

Eh... no.

Any sorc/pally/rogue is a powerbuild by itself. What I referred to, was that there is a better version of the sorc/pally/rogue which has the class levels distributed slightly different then what Tormak suggested.

The paladh00m, however, has a very specific combination.

Blackdragon12121 wrote:

Ok i must be understanding this wrong...Tormak just said that even amongst the paladhooms its undebated whether sorc/pally/rog which combination is better: 26(7)/1/2 or the 26(7)/2/1?

They just hit very often but its a stream of low damage. Not saying they arent tough but there are ways to use that to your advantage...Unless you have like 150hp, then things may get trickier.

A paladh00m doesn't melee...

Zante wrote:

I found myself to really like the sahaquin (sp) because of their vulnerability to lighning. Fire and frost giants both have well deffined vulnerabilities that a mage can exploit.

That's something I would like to see more, to have all mobs some weakness a mage can exploit, in the high epic areas.

Actand/abyss... I found none of my spells really doing anything. Bigby's get resisted 50% of the time, and they save against neg energy burst, evards, wails most of the time.

And agreed with above, with all the nerfs mages are getting as of late, free rebuilds should be considered.

Agree with this. Similarly those ghost dwarves out in a mine on Amia B seem to have a definite weakness to fire and divine. Flame strike and firestorm worked very well here. Mobs, particularly high level mobs should be given more weaknesses for mages to exploit. Also, more creatures in spawns or even double spawns after walking over a single trigger at lower levels would really make evocation that much better. An example is the trolls on Amia B after you beat the boss and go up into the next room. A well timed fireball or 2 there really helps. Similarly the barbarian boss room at the mountain peak.

Ok Mago, I concede. Really dont care that much about the paladhoom whatever build it is anyway as PVP is never my goal. What i suggested was still a paladhoom, just the one you're all referring to is a very specific build thats PVP pwnage.

With regards to the "They just hit very often but its a stream of low damage" - that was about the Brog barbs not paladhooms. Position your fighter near one of those skalds or throwers while fighting one of the greataxe wielders and they get AoO galore.

PS Tormak I don't know if you've done the same political science degree as Ruce but you *really* didn't answer the specific question. However we have now reached a point were I do not care what the answer is.

Quote:

Or you could hang back with massive DR, HP and Acid Sheathe that kills any attacker before you die, blind entire spawns with Sunburst, knock them senseless with Thunderclap, Bigby selectively, take out half the spawns

Ding ding and we have a winner! As someone else earlier posted on this thread - unless we *all* don't know what we are talking about it's not rocket science to know which spells suck and which don't.

However to *force* people to make Con/AC mage, abuse the Bigby spells and acid sheathe is wrong. Most people know these spells are golden but maybe it doesn't fit a diviners style to ''tank'' with acid sheathe. I personally only use it as a last ditch defense spell when cornered. If and its a big if (Mago don't pass out on me now) there was another I don't know *more mage-like* playstyle with other useful spells (don't worry they should be no where near the power of the aforementioned bigby, acid sheathe, wail, timestop) that can actually work we may see less abusive mage builds and more diversity. Fancy that a mage who doesn't cower in GS/Invisibility because he can actually contribute beyond ''buffstick'' :roll:

Oh well....

Mr T

IronAngel wrote:

A summon you gain at level 17 should not be particularly effective ten levels later.

So advancement for mages ends at level 17 on a 30 level server?

Because it's not exactly like there are more summons you get, ever. (Except for the ones that are available at level 21, which you also say should become long outdated by 30.)

StandingBehindYou wrote:

IronAngel wrote:

A summon you gain at level 17 should not be particularly effective ten levels later.

So advancement for mages ends at level 17 on a 30 level server?

Because it's not exactly like there are more summons you get, ever. (Except for the ones that are available at level 21, which you also say should become long outdated by 30.)

What he is saying is, the epic spell feats should be what mages use to continue advancing. Not a mundane summon that will carry you for the rest of your amia lifetime. A melee build at level 17 could not survive the abyss, sorce and wizards can. That should not be possible.

Craig deathwalker wrote:

StandingBehindYou wrote:

IronAngel wrote:

A summon you gain at level 17 should not be particularly effective ten levels later.

So advancement for mages ends at level 17 on a 30 level server?

Because it's not exactly like there are more summons you get, ever. (Except for the ones that are available at level 21, which you also say should become long outdated by 30.)

What he is saying is, the epic spell feats should be what mages use to continue advancing. Not a mundane summon that will carry you for the rest of your amia lifetime. A melee build at level 17 could not survive the abyss, sorce and wizards can. That should not be possible.

Well they could survive - Just sit in GS. Doesnt mean they could contribute anything, save +5 weapons and haste. He couldnt scratch the spawns there. Well if you take epic spell focus necro AND great int. Your DCs still arent good enough with the monster saves jacked up so high.

Craig deathwalker wrote:

What he is saying is, the epic spell feats should be what mages use to continue advancing. Not a mundane summon that will carry you for the rest of your amia lifetime.

IronAngel wrote:

He higher-end summons are still viable in epic levels, but they, too, become less effective as you advance in levels. As it should be. You cannot expect something you get at level 21/24 to still perform as well at level 30. That's simply not how it's supposed to be.

I think people severely lack perspective, because they've been so pampered on Amia.

I don't think, "mages should get progressively worse every level after 21, because no new spells are implemented over that level" is how things are supposed to be.

Interposing hand, neg energy burst, level drains, bigbyforcefull. All doable, don't argue with me with whats doable and not doable, if your only style of play is GS summon buff let it fight. Learn what is possible and what is not and then come back and argue about the strength of mages on amia.

Mr T wrote:

PS Tormak I don't know if you've done the same political science degree as Ruce but you *really* didn't answer the specific question. However we have now reached a point were I do not care what the answer is.

Physics, here. But if you didn't care for my exact numerical breakdown of player tank vs summon, you might want to shield your eyes now since I forgot damage, which you did indeed ask for:

Azer: 30STR, maxed Bulls to 35 = 13 STRmod.
+5 enhance, 1d8 base, +2d4Fire and transmuted Flame Weapon, +1d8 Cold/Electric
= 18 + 4.5 + 5 + 4.5 = 32 average.

Tank is on 12 STRmod, +4 enhance, 1d8 base, 1d6 element/bonus physical
= 16 + 4.5 + 3.5 = 24 average.

Craig deathwalker wrote:

Interposing hand, neg energy burst, level drains, bigbyforcefull. All doable, don't argue with me with whats doable and not doable, if your only style of play is GS summon buff let it fight. Learn what is possible and what is not and then come back and argue about the strength of mages on amia.

ok, -10AB, -4str = -2AB, and bigbys has a concentration check. Not enough my friend. Also, whats ACTUALLY killing the spawns? Your Azer?

Quote:

Interposing hand, neg energy burst, level drains, bigbyforcefull

At level 17? you really suggested neg burst (-4 str) good but not Balor pawning good, bigby's? good but if he has mates hello concentration check, and finally level drain... did you *really* suggest one of the worst spells in the game?....

Here's an idea ripped straight from a certain Forum socialite/personality ''please refrain from comment if you don't know what you're talking about''

But in all seriousness make a lvl 17 mage go to the abyss and see what happens...

Mr T

Quote:

Tank is on 12 STRmod, +4 enhance, 1d8 base, 1d6 element/bonus physical
= 16 + 4.5 + 3.5 = 24 average.

nice comparison fully buffed Azer v unbuffed ftr... huh next time I see Stillborn I'll laugh at his inbred leather-face wannabe ass

, afterall who's scared of 24 av damage...Man when you put it that way no wonder you never see any sword n' board warrior types hangin around Cordor and everyones in a dress with a pointy hat :lol:

.

O that's right no well built fighter does so little. Hell my 21 lvl dex ranger-rog does that much...

Mr T

Uberuce wrote:

Mr T wrote:

PS Tormak I don't know if you've done the same political science degree as Ruce but you *really* didn't answer the specific question. However we have now reached a point were I do not care what the answer is.

Physics, here. But if you didn't care for my exact numerical breakdown of player tank vs summon, you might want to shield your eyes now since I forgot damage, which you did indeed ask for:

Azer: 30STR, maxed Bulls to 35 = 13 STRmod.
+5 enhance, 1d8 base, +2d4Fire and transmuted Flame Weapon, +1d8 Cold/Electric
= 18 + 4.5 + 5 + 4.5 = 32 average.

Tank is on 12 STRmod, +4 enhance, 1d8 base, 1d6 element/bonus physical
= 16 + 4.5 + 3.5 = 24 average.

Are you comparing a straight level 17 fighter? If so, I think the well used phrase is "learn to play the game". Nobody builds a "fighter" like that. If you do, accept that your gonna suck.

Tank is on 12 STRmod, +4 enhance, 1d8 base, 1d6 element/bonus physical + 2 weapon spec + 1d8 flame weapon
= 16 + 4.5 + 3.5 + 2 + 4.5 = 30.5 average. Still slightlly weaker but then with the fighter feats galore it evens out and id still rather have the fighter. Human AI is very undervalued. The summons need pure power as they have no idea the best course of action to take dependent on the spawn and the summoner has only limited control. Still, im sure you know best so tweak away.

Mr T wrote:

nice comparison fully buffed Azer v unbuffed ftr... huh next time I see Stillborn I'll laugh at his inbred leather-face wannabe ass

, afterall who's scared of 24 av damage...Man when you put it that way no wonder you never see any sword n' board warrior types hangin around Cordor and everyones in a dress with a pointy hat :lol:

.

O that's right no well built fighter does so little. Hell my 21 lvl dex ranger-rog does that much...

Mr T

So it's okay for summons to be so good that tanks need to powerbuild to keep up? Wow.

That *is* the buffed fighter. Alone they can't do much but chug potions, unless we're going to get clever, which as I've already said means the mage gets to Learn How To Play and the Azer never fights anything that has a functioning brain or eyes at the time.

I do admit, those numbers are just the bare bones. A Barb would get +4 damage from Rage, a Fighter +2 from Weapon Spec and a Ranger +4 from Favoured Enemies, WM gets those crits and UMD fun would give Flame scrolls.

So, let's take our tweaky little tank and see how he does against the things an Azer will be fighting. Oh dear. That's the Brog Frost Giants. Damn Frost Mages and their Premonition stacked with Greater Stoneskin. So Joe Devcrit the munchkin is doing nothing but Flame Weapon damage, while the rest of the gang hit him and he bites Death Armour. Dead.
Meanwhile, Poyn T. Hat the mage's pet firestump is dropping those 32's(actually 34's from the cold theme) in like Flynn with his +5GMW and suffering the Death Armour better on his 350HP.

Well, nowadays the Frosties spam those ice spells like hell, so maybe the Azer's going to get trashed. Let's go in the back door to the Spire? Whoops, the Fire damage on the axe is gone, so we're down to 29 per hit even with the Cold damage from BoT FW.

Now, even 46AC and Improved Invis is a little hairy to be alone in the Spire, so let's give Firestump some company? Woo, buffed DR-happy familiar, coming right up. Protection from Spells and fingers crossed against a Dismissal 1.

Our plucky level 17 player tank, (now on 45AC from full Tumble and Mage Armour item spamming) in order to compete just needs to survive them skelping him at ~33/28/23/19AB. Look on the bright side: their bottom attacks will miss 95% of the time. Dead.

Okay, that's nasty, so we need some Improved Invis, and by 17 he's bound to have a wand he can get crafted back home. Of course, we're now in the Learnt To Play zone, so the mage has snagged a Spire Warrior with their hilarious Will save, and/or is Confusing or Colour Spraying(yes, that humble level 1 spell rapes face in the Spire) the hell out of the rest. I took a level 14 DwD through the Spire with Planki the wiz 18 once, and he just pinyata-whacked the lot of them.

All of the above, fun as it was to type out, isn't a case for buffing tanks in any way. It's not a concern that they can't solo. It just explains what I meant when I said tanks do less damage than summons do in their normal hunting grounds because without a mage, they do zero on account of being dead.

"Quit whining, Tank. You do way more damage than the Azer."

"Yes, but only because you're here. If you left, I'd be dead as soon as Haste expired. I can't afford stacks of Heal potions at this level."

"Yes, but if you left, I'd be dead too."

"Urm...no, you'd just see your XP/hour drop."

Stillborn's level 30, so comparing him to a pre-epic summon isn't something I'd recommend either. Amusingly he dies alone in the Spire pretty often and he's got both an oldschool 10/- Slash Darkwood Ring and +5/5 soak from a Perfect.

Last edited by Krin on Sat, Mar 28 2009, 16:19 PM, edited 2 times in total.

Oookay... Just want to point a few things out here..

Number 1

Damage spells suck in PvM. Too many resistances and immunities for them to be useful on anything but spawns with very specific weaknesses like the Frost or Fire giants, and even then you won't be able to use them for much more than doing some extra damage to help your summon for a few spawns because it'll take 2-3 of them to kill said spawn of baddies or get them around near death. In other words.. Poor usage of spell slots that should be saved for buffs.

Number 2

Did someone say that summons should become less useful at higher levels because you get them at level 17? What? Are there new spell tiers opening up? Where's the sense in a mage not knowing how to summon stronger things as he gets more powerful? You don't get any spells after level 9 and Epic spells. They shouldn't become weaker as you level, they should progressively become more powerful as you level. Just like a fighter's sword arm gets stronger and more skilled as levels go by, a mage's spells should get stronger.

Number 3

Like I pointed out before.. Many of the people speaking out in favor of this are people who have shameless powerbuilds. They are people who farm bosses for epic loot and farm for gold. They are people who make new characters just to try out a build. They are people who solo hunt. This is all so hypocritical it's ridiculous.

Number 4

The 'mages can sit around without risk while summons kill things' argument isn't relevant anymore. GS was nerfed. If you're taking a summon into a higher level area you're going to encounter things with See Invisibility. There is risk.

Number 5

Giving powergamers and powerbuilders preference over normal players when discussions as to what is going to be nerfed or balanced on this server pop up is a bad idea. You are alienating a lot of players. It's a bad move for the server. Stop it.

And apparently mentioning this at the start of my last post was reason enough for it to go unread by certain people. Here it is at the bottom..

Summons are the only useful weapon a normal mage has in PvM. Summons get you killed in PvP because everyone can see through invisibility and dev crit, Mord scrolls, Greater Spell Breach, +5 Weapons, or Acid Immunity rings.

EDIT: One more thing.. People who are solo hunting and farming right now will keep doing it with or without this change. You're doing nothing but punishing the normal player who only hunts rarely when nobody is around and nothing is going on.

No, people powerbuilt for PVP as well. If the summons were weakened people would still powerbuild regardless. Actually, I agree with most of that. Only thing i disagree with is the frost giants. It is possible to do them but you need to have devilish tactics. Fighting them on slopes etc, being smart enough to lure some away and dont attack the mages when they have death armor on. Foolishness! Wait till it runs out. The hurlers do sweet FA and their inclusion has actually weakened the frost giants as theres now that many less mages and warriors per spawn. Believe me, I would like nothing more than for every class to need every other class, i just think you need to go further than making the summons weaker either by reducing the duration of some of the stronger ones or altering their stats. Limiting potions and making magic much harder to come by would mean fighters would need that mage around. Also clerics would now be expected to provide some party buffing too as well as memorizing spells like remove posion etc etc. Amia B has the right idea in that when mobs spawn they start charging you straight away. This makes a rogue invaluable for getting the drop on your foes.

Gotta agree with Krin there. I would love for wizards spells to continue to get more powerful during epic. A couple of extra d6's or d8's could make all the difference especially in the climate of huge saves and mobs that resist everything. Weaken the summons so they are behind fighters but maybe add a means by which the scale with more CL akin to Gate. Dont flame me, just tossing ideas out.

Torzeng wrote:

So now I'm wondering if the goal is to reduce Wizard effetiveness; or Wizard soloing?
It looks like the ideal if it's not already the goal is just getting the Wizard set to a more-fair playing field in terms of SOLO. The idea of Solo-ing should be that it is possible, but either you can only do less-rewarding solo-ing or it's riskier for those who do good builds. Thus, promoting grouping up with at least 1 other if not more.

Now, if the idea is to lessen Wizards overall, which could have a negative impact on their party value; then I take complaint to this. Obviously any change will have an effect in both areas. Tricky, then, that it is kept to just so where the Solo-ing is fixed and parties stay welcoming.

Uberuce wrote:

This one's been brewing for a while, and I've finally got off my lazy arse and started it.

The short version is that I'm snipped a hefty chunk of STR from most of the higher end summons, and trimmed off the likes of Improved and Overwhelming Crit from them. Their defensive abilities are almost all untouched, but their AB and damage per hit have taken a dive of between two and five, depending on how epic they are.

For Dominate Monster and Control Undead, I went for the least radical solution, and made the usual suspects less buffable. Their Will saves are untouched, the duration of the spells aren't changing and there isn't a gold cost being applied. But, there's a few spells that are now pointless to cast upon them, and I doubt it'll take you long to work out which ones they are.

I can not speak for most people. But I would rather the burden of damage/survivability/growth be on the caster etc.. the character. Not the summons.

To some degree, there is largely little difference between the offensive power of a caster from level 20-30. And some spells from 15-30.

Some more scaling with Clvl's l28/30 something would do quite well, and quite far in alleviating it pvm, if it had high enough prequisites to fulfilling it.

Frankly Boss-running and PvP are low on my list. So i'd choose Party/PvM solo friendliness.

Well, I got the bag of changes from Uce and I added them. See how it works and give (constructive!) comments. I guess a topic in Things to Change is easiest for the Cow Dev.

I still disagree with this. EMD's AB was horrific as it was. All of the high level summons had terrible AB. Shredding summons, means that I wasted feats. Dissatisfied doesnt even begin to describe my genuine reaction to our 'distractions' being made overwhelmingly useless. I'll play around with it in game, when I'm able to come back, and will whine more then.

-N.S

Last edited by Dervish on Sat, Mar 28 2009, 21:31 PM, edited 1 time in total.

This is a real shame.
I've been working on my mage for a year now, got him to level 19 and hit the glass ceiling. His summons were worthless in epic areas. With the nerfing, I'm not even going to bother playing him anymore.
So you've totally ruined one class....so what. I have several others to play.
Thanks a bunch guys.

Last edited by Uberuce on Sat, Mar 28 2009, 20:52 PM, edited 1 time in total.

People that refuse to party are not a concern of ours. People that cannot cast [Mass] Haste are beneath the level of competence that I can reasonably be expect to made balance decisions for.

why not just simply not allow soloing?

Last edited by Dev Disco on Sat, Mar 28 2009, 20:59 PM, edited 1 time in total.

Dervish wrote:

This is a real shame.
I've been working on my mage for a year now, got him to level 19 and hit the glass ceiling. His summons were worthless in epic areas. With the nerfing, I'm not even going to bother playing him anymore.
Thanks a bunch guys.

Considering the fact that you haven't logged on today, and therefore haven't even experienced the changes, I can't say I file your comments under 'constructive'. Sorry, but try before you whine. Post specific suggestions in Things to Change, preferably with gameplay examples.

herkles wrote:

why not just simply not allow soloing?

Because that's stupid, and does nothing to fix the situation of grossly overpowered summons, among other reasons?

I'm going to be blunt: if you think Amian summons are overwhelmingly useless, too weak, or necessary to the class, you simply don't know what you're talking about. Go to any other NWN server out there, and see if there are mages there. If there are, it probably means summons aren't so important after all; because Amian summons are among the best there are on the established NWN servers. Complaining that you only get 50% more goodies that the rest of the NWN community, instead of the 75% you got used to, is rather petty, IMO.

Kendera, I don't think EMD's AB was even touched, but I may be wrong.

EDK is now poor. Silver Dragon now has 39AB unbuffed. Just painful. Thats BEFORE its activated powerattack taking it to 34! This is LESS than the AZER!! Thank god i didnt waste the DCs getting it reskinned! EDK now officially sucks and blows at the same time...AND its furter limited by its size. Just poor. Its not even a stand alone feat anymore. Without epic conjuration its totally worthless.

And by contrast, the bear animal companion has 45+ AB. Sure uberuce...Sure we wouldnt notice it. Well done, you've now offically ruined EDK. If you are gonna weaken them, at least get rid of the power attack feat!

It took me a while to work out what EMD was since I always call it the Duster, but yes, it's untouched.

Blackdragon12121 wrote:

EDK is now poor. Silver Dragon now has 39AB unbuffed. Just painful.

So is watching you fail at basic NWN. The character sheet of non-weapon critters does not take the claw enhancement into account, which remains +5 as before.

Last edited by IronAngel on Sat, Mar 28 2009, 21:07 PM, edited 1 time in total.

In addition to the above: Black, that's more AB than my melee-based bard has with a +5 weapon and max Str, before other buffs. And I never have problems hitting stuff.

Uberuce wrote:

Blackdragon12121 wrote:

EDK is now poor. Silver Dragon now has 39AB unbuffed. Just painful.

So is watching you fail at basic NWN. The character sheet of non-weapon critters does not take the claw enhancement into account, which remains +5 as before.

Well thank god it can still break through stone skin. So its now 44. Powerattacking down to 39. In retrospect, I really did overact. I've calmed down a lot now...I was still able to pwn some winterlings...provided a tree didnt get in the way.

Still, its not worth the feats. Nice :roll:

Summon IX is fair enough but EDK...

The Big Fat Summon and Dominate/Control Nerf

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