I'd have no problem with the dynamics, of futher nerfing summons if the rest-timer was shortened.

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Dwagin [Duh-wa-GIN] N. - 1a. Small and cute thingum, particularly fond of four legged scaled creatures of the metalic and chromatic varieties.

-Extraordinarily ordinary in the mostest of ways.

Sorry, I stopped reading your post right there, heh. I can't take it seriously if that's what you believe. You are a bit to mages like Galenson is for clerics, Krin.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

I'm amazed this thread is still going. Personally, I don't care if my summons are large damage dealers, that's not why I summon them. I summon them to be large damage soaks. If I could get something that has five hundred HP, 40/- DR, crit immunity and could only do one damage I'd be ecstatic.

If I wanted large damage, I'd find someone to party with (and for those who complain there is never anyone on I seem to manage alright in Aussie timezone ... with all 35 people spread across both servers).

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2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player

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Earlier in the thread sopmeone mentioned turning summons into high dr/hp "targets" to suck up blows whilst the pc does the damaging.

Personally, I love that concept. I don't think summons should be outdoing players for damage. I personally only use them as an additional target to draw attacks away from me, and so I hate it when the summons get pulverised within moments of engaging in a fight.

I'd much prefer to see them lose their teeth, but gain some thick-skin to make up for it. This would solve the issue of the ridiculous dps they offer allowing mages and clerics to sit in gs and do nothing, while still keeping them useful both for soloing and in a party.

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Role with the Punches...
Elan: A 10% chance is pretty unlikely, but everyone knows that a one-in-a-million chance is a sure thing!

Mages and clerics -already- can't do that due to the changes in GS.

95% of summons really dont out do fighters for damage. In fact, 99% id say. Ive heard some great things about the lvl 28 death domain summon but well, I still think my barbie would out-damage it. As for EDK...pfft weak sauce compared to the amount of raw damage fighers can put out.

Even if summons were damage reduction HP sinks and lost their offensive game, Wizards still couldnt put critters down with their spells. Hence all this means is that you'll encourage palidoom builds who can actually put spawns down.

Don't ever call anything a Paladhoom if you don't actually know what a Paladhoom IS. There is *no difference* in the killing ability of a plain level 30 sorc, and the 26 sorc/2 2 pally/1 rogue. No difference whatsoeevr.

Actually, the 30 sorc is *better* at the plain killing part.

There are some people who should just really politely stay quiet when it comes to the number crunching because they do not understand the terms they're talking about. The last post was an example of that.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

*shrugs* Isnt a paladoom a high level sor mixed with BG, paladin and a bit of rogue thrown in? I may be wrong?

In my experience, a paladoom can do everything the level 30 wiz can do, and still pick up a weapon and hit things. True beating spell resistance is slightly harder but you can get your DCs to just about equal that of a pure mage. At least, my paladooms can.

No. It's not. You are indeedy incorrect.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

So what is it then?

There are certain builds that I refuse to make and explain to people. If you want them, find it yourself. The sorc/pally/rogue is one of those, but The Paladhoom is far more specific, the sorc/pally/rogue taken to an extreme, and actually requires a modicum of skill, gearmanaging, and twithc reflexes to play. It is not "E-Z Mode".

Short answer: Sorry, not telling.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

Seriously Tormak were you not loved as a child or something? the level of rudeness and antagonism that flows from one person is astounding....
And yes just because other ideas or opinions exist doesn't make them any less valid. Please O' wise one please tell me which summon aside from EDK, Winterwight and Gate can even approach let alone surpase a *well* made fighter's damage?

(And before the gallery accuse me of whining and crying for my summons I don't care. I'm good enough to do without them when I play my wiz. the only people it will hurt are new players and those who based there build around them).

Mr T

Riight...so its a VERY specific, refined version of a broad spectrum of "sorceror-with-paladin thrown in for saves and rogue for evasion" builds?

Before ECL 30 and uberloot/DC items?

A well made fighter in the harshest environments a mage-buffed summon can survive will do zero damage.

He or she will be dead. And that's okay. The price you pay for being a god when externally buffed is that you stink when you're not.

Mages don't pay an equivalent price.

I think the total the damage is what the base it off of, so you have a summon,familiar and your self. a fighter is alone and so the monsters would only attack him. if you added assassins and stuff into the mix sneak/death attack is useless alone.

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================-<Cory ShadowFlame>-================
Risenlord-Shifter(OMG a Non-Dragon Shifter that can hold his own in PvE)

Wouldn't 26 sorc/1palla/2 rogue be better? *ponders and shrugs*

In either case, I stick to my main point, the change is not that problematic or big, and that I say as a Sorcerer who sticks to summons and dominated monsters in a group, fi I can.
Normally players outweight them by far, more intelligent, heal themself, know when to retreat, etc, etc.

They are good and they have uses, but they can't replace other party members.
However in a party do you become a buffbot, and not many people are happy with that and hence want a summon to dish out damage.

Of course we could try to use wail on the Abyss spawns while fighting, but can we beat the 36 - 40 Fort of them?
Barely.
Can we break that death immunity?
Oops?
So instead if instant kill spells you use lesser spells.
It still will be not enought on effectively kill a single foe with 400 or more Hp though.
Well, sure, lets say we use horrid wilting?
60 damage per hit, roughly, double it for a failted fort.

So we cast it like 7 times on a single spawn, if we are lucky are they all down, if not then you are screwed.
And the summon can only last that long. If 6 foes pound onot hit is it quickly dead, and then you follow.


I personally suck at powerbuildin, all the builds I ahve seen, Sorcerer/BG with 80 AC, SD with 100 AC, Cleric with 70 AC, Dragonmonkshifter with 80 AC.

Honestly.. I got an SD with barely 44 AC. I already thought that was huge! Seems I was proven wrong.
My mage? 17 AC, unbuffed, 27 AC buffeed.
My BG? Don't even talk about him, his AC is horrible.
I personally wouldn't know how to make it any better than that and I have been playing it already some time and did some feat research and what...

My point: Not everyone is a doing such extremely survivable builds not everyone can do it or wants to do it, others just want to have fun.
And if that fun is helped with summons as a usable support, then please.
Even if it is changed, it is not the end of the world.
Just change the damage output by a bit, remove the ability to add keen/GMW to summoned monster weapons and the damage output is already reduced by 5 x crit mod.
But why reduce the chance to hit I ask? Wouldn't just changing the damage be more productive?

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"Most assume that all the followers of Lathander are great morning people. They're very wrong."
"I think we are the only group where AD&D stands for Attention Deficit Disorder."

Thank you Hellscourge, for a moment, I thought I was losing my mind!

err as I said apart from the aforementioned (EDK, Death summon, Winterwight or Gate) just which summons *are* these that aren't dead too? seriously Uberuce there's no election on the line, this isn't politics just answer the question and name some summons...

Mr T

All of the ones I'm fiddling; Summon VII and below are as yet untouched except for Shelgarn's.

From Summon VIII upwards, the disparity between what a mage can solo without a tank and vice versa becomes fatally large.

I'm shocked...you really think summon summon VIII, and XI are overpowered...really? Let me rephrase that...you think the beholder, effigy, asur and juggernaut are overpowered really? Uh ok. One things right tho it'll make no difference anyway most people with any sense ditch those ASAP or rarely use them...

Mr T

Summon VIII is awesome. Summon it as soon as PvP is beginning

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2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player

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You're misreading all of my posts purposefully. I refuse to take your bait, unfortunately, that means I gotta lump you in with the rest of the people who Don't Know What They're Talking About.

Re: Sorc/pally/rogue: It's debated if the 26(7)/1/2 or the 26(7)/2/1 is better, even among the Paladhooms.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

can we have the cleric's gate made somewhat useful? They die to quickly or is it me that dont know how to use it?

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Signature by Qualiz

Del's Characters Entry - Amiawiki.

Fine with me as you've pretty much always been in this group as far as i'm concerned. Anyway in terms of overall balance it's probably a good change. I just wanted some answers to my questions. Oh well thems the breaks.

Mr T

At level 30? Yes, they stink. At the levels they are first gained?

Okay, maths time. Let's consider Joe Devcrit, 18STR at start, pretty crappy stats elsewhere.

Level 17 Full BAB: 17AB
22STR by this point and +12 buffs for +12 STRmod: 29AB
Assume +4 weapon: 33AB
Assume Weapon Focus: 34AB - 34/29/25/24
Assume +4AC in all categories and crossclass Tumble: 42AC
Hitpoints: 170 base, assume 12 CON for 210, perhaps +6CON with potions? 270HP.

Now see the lol underpowered Azer:

Spawns in at 34AB, 37AC, 292HP, buffs to 37/37/32/27/22AB(cuts Stoneskin), 46AC(Improved Invis), 352HP.


When I see the numbers racked up like that, I can't believe I've been so conservative.

I think the disparity is comparing a buffed summon to a totally unbuffed (or potion buffed) melee character. A pair of mages towing summons are worse than one mage buffing one warrior.

Bearing in mind a lot of these buffs are available in potion form, haste, bulls, improved invis dust. And if joe dev crit is smart hes picked up IKD, which im sure the azer doesnt have.

And the summons dont have human intelligence behind them. None the less Joe dev crit>Azer.

If we're going to be that clever, then the mage gets competent use of disabling spells. As soon as you bring that into the mix, the mage solos a trillion times better than the best played tank in the 15+ field. Well, until we hit ECL 30 and start doing laps round the Spire, but I've already shown that mages can win there too.

You need to compare like with like. I was just giving raw dumbass buff'n'run stats there.

the point is that a fighter does not get two friends all the time that he could buff, potions or not. the point is three for the price of one.

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================-<Cory ShadowFlame>-================
Risenlord-Shifter(OMG a Non-Dragon Shifter that can hold his own in PvE)

That. Mages can solo better at high levels than fighters can dream. Of course, a lvl 1 mage is likely to be killed by a cat

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2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player

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And just in case anyone misses a point: it's okay for pure tankly types to suck alone. They are utter. Utter. Nightmares. When externally buffed.

Just say it one more time...

IF THIS MEANS NO SOLOING IN EPIC AREAS THEN GOOD GOOD GOOD!

All this number crunching to find out exactly how much can be killed before your summons hits the deck is silly! Your summon is a support bot for your party... isn't it? ISN'T IT!

Playing both sides of this coin, my Fight/Wm/Rogue, Pier is .. arse alone. Totally horrible once getting to brog. You put a bard with her though and she's mean, I doubt i'd have issue duoing abyss with a setup like that.

At 30, you put her with a 30 bard, there's not going to be much/anything that'd stop her PvM, cept maybe the Pirate, and Darkness prolly too.. Thats fine by me tho.

By herself? She gets mugged by a group of barbs/Sandbugs in Ankh Desert if they get lucky rolls, at lvl 21.

Btw Ruce, you should parse the AB that the barbs get from rage/Bardsong, I think they're a bit out of wack for their Challenge Rating, in that they're more dangerous than the fire giants. or at least seem that way.

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Dwagin [Duh-wa-GIN] N. - 1a. Small and cute thingum, particularly fond of four legged scaled creatures of the metalic and chromatic varieties.

-Extraordinarily ordinary in the mostest of ways.

I dont think the nerfs are really about soloing, or they would simply say "Dont solo anymore or else." I mean.. spend forever nerfing things to stop people from soloing.. or simply make it a rule that you cant solo anymore.. what makes more sence?

Maybe give spawns a +20 AB and AC buff if your soloing, that would stop soloing too, for the high end stuff, but still let the epics go out and butcher goblins like they should be able to.

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House Auvrea'Kan Crafts and Services is now open and prepared to discuss orders.

And no one who plays a drow lowbie will ever be able to level.

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2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player

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I answered your questions, whether or not you listen to the answers is your problem.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

Sorcerer/BG(or Paladin) doesn't get 80 AC, but rather ~70 AC.

There's absolutely no SD that can get 100 AC. The highest self-buffed AC an SD realistically gets is also around 80-ish. But that's by stacking Shadow Evades (dunno if you can still do that on Amia, though).

Clerics rarely get 70 AC now. Most of the time you're looking at 60 AC, due to the UeF nerf.

You can make very complex powerbuilds with clerics, that go beyond 70, but those are rare.


Even though Tormak might not come off as very polite in his replies, he does have a point...





And, generally speaking. A big part of NWN isn't just RP. You have a character, with which you make a combination of classes, abilities, feats and skills, which add up to a powerlevel.

Being ignorant of the game mechanics and what combinations are available, is in my opinion no excuse to lessen the challenge of the game for those (the majority of players, these days), that have taken the time to find out what's the most effective way of maximizing your characters combat potential.

It's just as bad as not knowing the spells wizards have available, and then making claims of them ineffective or insufficient.

EDIT: No, I can't type at 6 am in the morning.

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Darthion Illys

Join the Banites!

Actually, neither of those two are the best Tihihihihi.

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Darthion Illys

Join the Banites!

Did you try buffing it?

I used my Gate spell with the Yuan-ti. It did marvelously well.

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Darthion Illys

Join the Banites!

And... we have a winner.

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Darthion Illys

Join the Banites!

Quadruple post?! That's got to be a new record for you .

Ordinarily from what I've seen Bard/BG seem to have the highest ACs, but Mago has a good point - just because one can't powerbuild (this category includes me) doesn't mean the challenge for one that can should be removed.

And Gate works fairly well so long as you buff it ... although I generally don't use it in favour of more aggressive spells (SoV <3).

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2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player

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In Summation: Fob off Clonejyn.

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I play: Gage le Gris
Socially and recently politically Inept Knight of Xymor

I look at it the opposite way and say "One shouldn't HAVE to powerbuild, to adventure here enjoyably". Powerbuilders want a challenge, there's plenty of action servers out there to choose from.

Still, I'm not against the nerf, but I really hope that part of this nerf is fixing useless summons as well. And it really doesn't sound like it is, unless that is something just being glossed over.

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Role with the Punches...
Elan: A 10% chance is pretty unlikely, but everyone knows that a one-in-a-million chance is a sure thing!

LOL dude

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UCE THIS, YOU COW.

My belief is that there should be enough areas where one does not have to powerbuild, merely be in a party, to get to lvl 30.

Edit: At any rate, let's not argue server philosophy here and stay on topic - we support the change

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2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player

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So...you dont consider those builds powerbuilds but rather only the very secret, specific combination or sorc/pally/rog? Interesting.


Right, law of diminishing returns. 70 odd AC is still good enough when it comes to PVM. High-end spawns it may come into play. Amia really isnt that challenging whether you weaken summon VIII upwards or not. Clearly im not a powerbuilder as i have no idea what im talking about. Its not hard to take a look at wiz spells and immediately know which are ineffective/insufficient. In fact, i took the liberty of posting those spells earlier on in this thread (or a different one, I cannot recall exactly). But it did include spells like displacement, enervation, wall of fire incendiary cloud and ball lightning. Are you trying to tell me I dont know what im talking about and these spells are REALLY that darn good if you know what your doing?

When it comes to challenge ratings the barbarians in brog are ok. If anything, those sharks under the ice and the frost witches really seem underchallenged.

They never said they weren't powerbuilds, just not Paladhooms.

At any rate, I think the barbs are too hard for their CR. They just hit way to often.

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2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player

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Ok i must be understanding this wrong...Tormak just said that even amongst the paladhooms its undebated whether sorc/pally/rog which combination is better: 26(7)/1/2 or the 26(7)/2/1?

They just hit very often but its a stream of low damage. Not saying they arent tough but there are ways to use that to your advantage...Unless you have like 150hp, then things may get trickier.

I'm not going to debate the Paladhoom in much more depth: ?It's a build, a bastardly build, and it focuses on exactly what I don't in builds: PvP. It's petty arse at anything else. I have the same issues as Ruce helping anyone build purely a PvP monster.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

Okay... as usual I wondered a while weather to post but.. what the heck... and my appologies right away I admit I did not read the -whole- thread.

I just want to give a quick view on my opinion for now having played a wizard who indeed has ESF conju for about 3 years.

This is no complaint, or critic... I couldn't care less what you empower or nerf... for that I just don't care enough for PvP or PvM

1) Dominate = rather powerful indeed, especially if you have ESF enchantment. On the other hand if it's nerfed that is 3 wasted feats, one of them epic. It's about the only spells ESF actually matters.

Rather make the critters you don't want to be dominated (Demons, undead kiddies) immune to be dominated or buff their will high enough to have to let them roll a 1 to be dominated.

2) regular summons I-IX: Some of them are good... helpful especially through lvling. Suck in Epic areas... a lvl IX summon is still helpful at firegiants, also Yuan-ti but will die in no time in Abyss or Actand.

Against the sea devils... hmm... lasts a bit but not alone... helpful in a group but solo... uhm... nope.

Gate: Doesn't last evry long... some are stronger than others... the planetar is really good, but those don't last in Actand, Manor or Abyss either without some fighters along.

Mummydust: Pretty good, doesn't get stuck, does average damage. Downside: can't be healed unless you use kits, not many attacks per round and not a great damage doer. Works awsome in a group... but not with soloing.

in PvP: Not bad with the crit immunity against fighters, however with classes who can cast heal, who have high AC or high HP, it won't win the day.

(sidenote, I didn't bother to post the value of summon I-IX and gate in PvP because it is... so to say non existant)

The "oh so mighty EDK" which I admittedly use less and less in the past months.

EDK and Epic areas:

EDK vs. Yuan-Ti: Useless, gets more stuck than it is able to reach anything

EDK v. Frost giants: Yup... works

EDK vs. Fire giants: Useless, gets more stuck than it is able to reach anything, admittadly... works well against the royals though as the area is bigger.

EDK vs. Ilithid: Useless, gets more stuck than it is able to reach anything, Especially useless against the boss.

EDK vs. Beholders: Useless, gets more stuck than it is able to reach anything, gets disspelled too

EDK vs. Actand: Useless, gets more stuck than it is able to reach anything, also in the few areas that are a bit bigger... it is a lot of help but can't solo unless you really feed it with 1-2 heal potions per spawn. (mind, this is soloing I am talkign about... not in group, there it is more help of course)

EDK vs. Sea Devils: Pretty good outside, (Useless in the temple, gets more stuck than it is able to reach anything)

EDK vs. Undead Pirate: High chance to get dev critted.

EDK vs. The darkness: not too bad if you can manage to lurk it out, otherwise the EDK can't reach... while lurking it out you can't counterspell it probably so it's still a bit tricky.

EDK vs. the snowbeast: Hmm... getting there is a bit tricky with the blizzards and the EDK's cold vulnerability... against the snowbeast itself it is rather good there though.

EDK vs. Maximus: Pretty good yes, I admit *nods*

EDK vs. Manor of Mourn: Useless, gets more stuck than it is able to reach anything, also don't last too long alone against the kids

EDK vs. Abyss: Big help for a party, won't last long in solo since the Abyss buff.


Did I forget anything? If so... I will add it later.

EDK vs. PvP:

vs. fighter: average... high chance to get dev. critted against dev. critters... wm's dun have a problem with EDK... I know since Amarice killed a few of those pets already

vs. other mages: well... that's more of a strategy question then, isn't it?

vs. SD: rocks... then again.. for that their HIPS rock against most otehr classes, nO?

vs. everything else: depends on the build really.



In the end... EDK isn't as great as many belief. It is good, no doubt. You need 4 feats to make it worth it, and if the EDK is nerfed more I really want a rebuilt, because those 4 feats are absolutely useless then.


My recommendation on EDK: refuse EDK to be reskinned with smaller skins. Then EDK practically nerfes itself due to most area constructions.


In the end... I would say wizards are supposed to be rather strong too. They studied for decades (or at least that is how it should be, sadly it's rarely rpyed that way).

HIPS, Dev. crit, lasting inspiration, there are many powerful feats in this game so I think it is still somewhat balanced.

No offense Ruce, I truly admire your builds... but yes most of your builds are by far more powerful than any wizard with his/her summons.

That said.. do what you want but if the whole summon thing gets drastically nerfed I'd like a rebuild.



In the end: I think it is really really sad how much discussions atm are goind on about "nerf this class" and "power up this class" instead on a RP-Server. These this are important too but.. should they really draw the main focus atm here as they do right now?

Personally... I would rather see some more nice RP items added and maybe an update to the Amia headpackage. I know few will care and most will disagree... but I guess it was worth a try.

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