AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic - The Big Fat Summon and Dominate/Control Nerf

Kjetta wrote:

A pointless rant, I know, but it helped geting it off my chest. You may continue with your dragons (but please don't summon them inside houses, it makes no sense!)

Well, that'd be great if people'd take a wizard along for 'identifying items', 'Opening doorways with their massive intelligence and language grasp.' and 'fancy fireworks at parties' and Wizards only had access to UMD. >.>

You can do that in events.

This is part of the reason why I wanted traps and other ability/skill check door locks or 'puzzle locks' on dungeons with say, bonus loot chests.

As I slept I thought it over and now I'm not thinking it's a bad idea anymore. After all a Full lvl 30 wiz/sor has a familiar who is equally as powerful as any fighter. Likewise Druids also have an animal companion. Combined with a powerful amped summons it's like having three Epic characters instead of one.

Sure your change of opinion didn't have something to do with the Epic Dragon Knight's severed head in your bed this morning? :wink:

So thats where that came from. . .

On topic

Uce may i also ask that the model for the Efreet is changed. For some reason its got the footprint of an EDK which makes it have the intelligence of a monkey. I understand nerfing a summon but it would be nice if i could in fact use the summon your nerfing rather than it getting stuck on a pixel that may or may not be a smudge on my monitor.

Uberuce wrote:

I'm openminded to nerfing duration of brainwash/summons right down, but again I made the assumption that the playerbase wouldn't want that.

Feel free to campaign among them for the reverse, though.

Oh, before I forget, when you sent that Pitfiend into Brog what buffs did it have? I tried replicating the result with a White Slaad CL27 that I'd not buffed STR/DEX/CON/AC as much (to account for the 5 level drop to the CL22 Gate)and it wiped the floor with them. In terms of AB/AC/STR/creature weapon they're clones of each other, but the Slaad does have much more Cold DR, if I recall.

The white slaad, level 27 is a beast and rightly so. I take that back, it wasnt the northern wolves, it was a bunch of dodo's... 6 i recall and it was a freshly summoned lvl 22 pitfiend. By contrast the level 22 plantar was badly injured in a similiar showdown.

Kjetta wrote:

I wish that mages were more mysterious, like Gandalf in the LoTR. He's a level 80 wizard or something, yet he seems very cautious with his spells, only tossing them around in dire situations. Perhaps it's a big deal for him to break the laws of nature, I have no clue. And I know that's not at all how Amia/DnD is or should be, but still...

That's because Gandalf is Istari and was prevented by the Vala from confronting Sauron with any of his powers. However, he was allowed to when he confronted another Maia (SP?) spirit i.e. the Balrog, and when fighting the fallen of his order (i.e. Saruman).

As for magi ... why wouldn't they break the laws of nature? What is the point of having overwhelming amounts of magic and not using it for the betterment of society?

Edit: Gah, I hate not noticing a second page

Blackdragon12121 wrote:

The white slaad, level 27 is a beast and rightly so. I take that back, it wasnt the northern wolves, it was a bunch of dodo's... 6 i recall and it was a freshly summoned lvl 22 pitfiend. By contrast the level 22 plantar was badly injured in a similiar showdown.

Freshly summoned meaning totally unbuffed?

Mages in most DnD campaigns are way less understood and far more mysterious (IC). FR just sorta ruins it because every barmaid is a level 10 bard, and that farmer out there is a level 40 retired Paladin.

FR is a love or hate campaign setting. It's the highest magic world in DnD, and some people utterly despise this (for good reasons) as it draws the powerbuilds by neccesity because of the high power opponents you usually deal with.

It's why it makes a good high powered action setting, and why Baulder's Gate and Neverwinter Nights use it.

In most DnD worlds, a level 20 wizard is rare to the point of possibly being non-existant, and usually, is either the most powerful mortal, either good or evil. And you never even reach epic.

Freshly summoned, unbuffed anything is mincemeat for any spawn actually worth your time.

Drannok wrote:

Mages in most DnD campaigns are way less understood and far more mysterious (IC). FR just sorta ruins it because every barmaid is a level 10 bard, and that farmer out there is a level 40 retired Paladin.

FR is a love or hate campaign setting. It's the highest magic world in DnD, and some people utterly despise this (for good reasons) as it draws the powerbuilds by neccesity because of the high power opponents you usually deal with.

It's why it makes a good high powered action setting, and why Baulder's Gate and Neverwinter Nights use it.

In most DnD worlds, a level 20 wizard is rare to the point of possibly being non-existant, and usually, is either the most powerful mortal, either good or evil. And you never even reach epic.

Yeah ... it's hard to be powerful, aloof and mysterious when tree of the next ten people you meet are just as powerful.

Uberuce wrote:

Blackdragon12121 wrote:

The white slaad, level 27 is a beast and rightly so. I take that back, it wasnt the northern wolves, it was a bunch of dodo's... 6 i recall and it was a freshly summoned lvl 22 pitfiend. By contrast the level 22 plantar was badly injured in a similiar showdown.

Freshly summoned meaning totally unbuffed?

Thats right. I had previously removed summon IX in lieu of Gate and was shocked how much weaker it was (true it probably gets stronger at level 27). A buffed efreet was able to do something against the fire giants whereas the pit fiend was hitting for measly damage. Hence I decided to test the pitfiend.

I'll bear in mind your definition of a fair test, then.

Blackdragon12121 wrote:

Uberuce wrote:

Blackdragon12121 wrote:

The white slaad, level 27 is a beast and rightly so. I take that back, it wasnt the northern wolves, it was a bunch of dodo's... 6 i recall and it was a freshly summoned lvl 22 pitfiend. By contrast the level 22 plantar was badly injured in a similiar showdown.

Freshly summoned meaning totally unbuffed?

Thats right. I had previously removed summon IX in lieu of Gate and was shocked how much weaker it was (true it probably gets stronger at level 27). A buffed efreet was able to do something against the fire giants whereas the pit fiend was hitting for measly damage. Hence I decided to test the pitfiend.

Is this a buffed efreet vs an unbuffed pit fiend?

Nay the pit fiend was buffed. I did science at school and the concept of a fair test doesnt escape me. Against the dodo's it was unbuffed. went down like a sack of potatoes.

Blackdragon12121 wrote:

Nay the pit fiend was buffed. I did science at school and the concept of a fair test doesnt escape me. Against the dodo's it was unbuffed. went down like a sack of potatoes.

So does the efreet unbuffed. I've had empirical evidence as to that.

Last edited by Dwagin on Thu, Mar 26 2009, 23:51 PM, edited 1 time in total.

Comparing a summon which lasts 20 minutes while buffed at CL20, to one that lasts 4. Isn't a fair comparison as far as spell-slot management. Considering up to 1/4th of that time can be spent buffing said 4 minute summon, doesn't seem equivilant comparison wise either. You'd need 4 gate castings, and 4 sets of buffage for equal coverage.

You'd need at clvl30, 3 gates, with 3 sets of buffs, to get same spell slot usage. (one full rest worth of a summon)

Gate duration needs to go up, it'd help usability issues a lot imo.

Yurell wrote:

Blackdragon12121 wrote:

Nay the pit fiend was buffed. I did science at school and the concept of a fair test doesnt escape me. Against the dodo's it was unbuffed. went down like a sack of potatoes.

So does the efreet unbuffed. I've had empirical evidence as to that.

I never tested the efreet against the dodos. I expected it to lose that fight. I didnt however, expect the Gate to be as underwhelming as it was, given the difference in their durations both against the fire giants and the unbuffed dodos.

Dwagin wrote:

Comparing a summon which lasts 20 minutes while buffed at CL20, to one that lasts 4. Isn't a fair comparison as far as spell-slot management. Considering up to 1/4th of that time can be spent buffing said 4 minute summon, doesn't seem equivilant comparison wise either.

You'd need at clvl30, 3 gates, with 3 sets of buffs, to get same spell slot usage.

Gate duration needs to go up, imo.

Didn't it use to be awesomely powerful but with a gold cost? I'd take that over duration any day.

Yurell wrote:

Dwagin wrote:

Comparing a summon which lasts 20 minutes while buffed at CL20, to one that lasts 4. Isn't a fair comparison as far as spell-slot management. Considering up to 1/4th of that time can be spent buffing said 4 minute summon, doesn't seem equivilant comparison wise either.

You'd need at clvl30, 3 gates, with 3 sets of buffs, to get same spell slot usage.

Gate duration needs to go up, imo.

Didn't it use to be awesomely powerful but with a gold cost? I'd take that over duration any day.

Amia's gold problems solved! summons such as edk, gate etc, cost 20k a use

flame war begin!

Yurell wrote:

Didn't it use to be awesomely powerful but with a gold cost? I'd take that over duration any day.

'Awesomely powerful' .. isn't a way I'd put it.

More like equivalent to a level 20 2-h warrior with decent spell resist.

I don't propose its power to be lowered. If you want to jack onto it a 25,000 gold cost/cast, i don't care, though, nor would I, even if leveling with it on a fresh wizard, if its duration was upped.

Craig deathwalker wrote:

Yurell wrote:

Dwagin wrote:

Comparing a summon which lasts 20 minutes while buffed at CL20, to one that lasts 4. Isn't a fair comparison as far as spell-slot management. Considering up to 1/4th of that time can be spent buffing said 4 minute summon, doesn't seem equivilant comparison wise either.

You'd need at clvl30, 3 gates, with 3 sets of buffs, to get same spell slot usage.

Gate duration needs to go up, imo.

Didn't it use to be awesomely powerful but with a gold cost? I'd take that over duration any day.

Amia's gold problems solved! summons such as edk, gate etc, cost 20k a use

flame war begin!

Nope.
It'd either be not worth it, in which case it wouldn't be cast, or it would be in which case the incmome > expense.

I have to say this balancing move is a silly move because it won't change a thing. People are going to continue to do what they do but find new ways to do it. Honestly, I do not even see this as a balancing move but a "things to change for the sake of changing them". I do not see how this change is going to remedy any complaint previously stated in the last 6 pages.

Yurell wrote:

Really Evil Pigeon wrote:

Like I said since we are going to be using summons as defence rather than offence i would like to see our offencive to be offensive.. considiering alot of the bosss are immune to most tactics. I would like to see the bosses become kill able on 1's from a wail,so using them as defence becomes more viable

Aren't they already? I know ASB at least fails fort saves, and I don't see why it would have death magic immunity.

Only dev. most bosses are immunte to IGMs and Wail as well as forceful and groping hands. the hands are understandable.. but I would love the chance for a 1 to be able to be rolled on the non undead bosses.. it would make using summons as sheilds more viable and useable, considering alot of the new bosses have also alot of elemental resistances.. I do think this has gone to far in the "I hate mages" line..oh and the asb has imporved evasion. if not atleast give them slay red dragon diciple and palemaster on hit!

Really Evil Pigeon wrote:

Yurell wrote:

Really Evil Pigeon wrote:

Like I said since we are going to be using summons as defence rather than offence i would like to see our offencive to be offensive.. considiering alot of the bosss are immune to most tactics. I would like to see the bosses become kill able on 1's from a wail,so using them as defence becomes more viable

Aren't they already? I know ASB at least fails fort saves, and I don't see why it would have death magic immunity.

Only dev. most bosses are immunte to IGMs and Wail as well as forceful and groping hands. the hands are understandable.. but I would love the chance for a 1 to be able to be rolled on the non undead bosses.. it would make using summons as sheilds more viable and useable, considering alot of the new bosses have also alot of elemental resistances.. I do think this has gone to far in the "I hate mages" line..oh and the asb has imporved evasion. if not atleast give them slay red dragon diciple and palemaster on hit!

I thought they just had high SR? Does Mords + Epic Spell Penetration not work?

To anyone complaining that they will no longer be able to solo the Abyss and Actand.. You shouldn't be able to in the first place. Really, anyone who solos either place might as well start rping their character as an immortal.

The_Cheef wrote:

Really, anyone who solos either place might as well start rping their character as an immortal.

1) I don't think anybody in here has claimed that -they- solo either place.
2) I already have a character RP'ing as an immortal.

The only reason why peeps can fully solo Actand is because of dragon fear (or in one case i've seen...well lets just say he's probably a quiet powerbuilder who is a friend of mine and yes, he solo's just fine, without summons...there...). I'm just so glad he never starts a PvP encounter...

Really Evil Pigeon wrote:

Aren't they already? I know ASB at least fails fort saves, and I don't see why it would have death magic immunity. considering alot of the new bosses have also alot of elemental resistances.. I do think this has gone to far in the "I hate mages" line..oh and the asb has imporved evasion.

I must admit, I don't see the point of the death immunity in the light of the bossly saves. Camping for a 1 is a pisspoor tactic even for a Devcritter(and also people slapping Maxi and the suckerhead Dom with the relevant slay OnHits), so for someone on finite ammo, it's a joke.

I don't mind if people could start swapping stories of 'pwning' the ASB/JFK/Windy/FGK by getting it to roll a 1.

I would draw your attention to the Pirate Captain and Darkness. They made me a little nervous with the extreme ease with which primary casters eat them, but then I reckoned that I had indeed been a little harsh on pointy hats with previous bosses, so I didnt fix their glaring weaknesses.

soundofastream wrote:

The only reason why peeps can fully solo Actand is because of dragon fear (or in one case i've seen...well lets just say he's probably a quiet powerbuilder who is a friend of mine and yes, he solo's just fine, without summons...there...). I'm just so glad he never starts a PvP encounter...

Actand Angels also only have a 50/50 save against SoV ... and that's my drow with no focus in the school, so a human cleric with focus could tear through them easily enough without EDK.

Mr Mago wrote:

I did some more thinking, as well. Say, you're hunting in the Spires. A maximized Ice Storm with a level 30 caster *snip*

To be fair(which is the point of this entire exercise) the Spires Fallacy cuts both ways; while it's certainly fun to compare lap times around the nice flat circuit that the Fire Giants live on, it's not a real consideration.

What works at level 30 needs to work at level 20 too, or it's not valid for the Spire.

Although, in a laptime discussion, cast your eyes to the log of Planki in the Spire Are You Bored aka FGK Humiliation thread in Off Topic. When I was rushing off to do that last night I was racking up ~400 damage per round against the mobs from Mestil's. He went through roughly two spawns per Premonition, and once they were dry, needed one Heal per three. Transmuted to cold, it would obviously be 1.5 times as effective.

That's not a wise plan for anyone but a Planki clone at level 30, and that's a truly revolting munchkin of a build. Totally disusting how easy it is to rape the place? Yes, but so what? It's ten levels beneath him.

Wyjyn: Loving all of you (and above all Disco) since 11 Jan 2007.

Uberuce, Mago and Tormak ... what do you do outside amia exactly?

soundofastream wrote:

The only reason why peeps can fully solo Actand is because of dragon fear (or in one case i've seen...well lets just say he's probably a quiet powerbuilder who is a friend of mine and yes, he solo's just fine, without summons...there...). I'm just so glad he never starts a PvP encounter...

62 DC Terrifying Rage works just fine too.

Wyjyn wrote:

Uberuce, Mago and Tormak ... what do you do outside amia exactly?

Fuck.

Ive said it before, and reading some more of this thread reminded me..

If the goal is to stop people from Soloing, then make it a rule that you cant solo. That fixes all the proablems right there! Sure, i can make the sickest powerbuild ever.. but its against the rules to solo, so it dosnt matter unless i have a buddy.

I mean, there is that, or you can keep changing things here and there so people cant go it alone. IMO a rule or script over a number of areas that dosnt let you go there alone, is alot easier and ends the proablem for good.

Perhaps you can only go solo to places with roads to them. That would leave going from town to town an option still, but no more 20 min laps through the spiers, or whereever. Also cuts down on boss farming, and gold income from random item drops.

As far as I can see solo-ing is just one example showing why the summons are ungodly good in Amia. The last bit is the issue.

maglorine wrote:

I'm going to make a case here for Animal Companions not going under the knife.

[...]

I assume I'll get some disagreement so have at it.

I'm with you there! The pet is part of the druid him/herself pretty much, they are direly needed.

Talon wrote:

The_Cheef wrote:

Really, anyone who solos either place might as well start rping their character as an immortal.

1) I don't think anybody in here has claimed that -they- solo either place.
2) I already have a character RP'ing as an immortal.

anyone complaining about these changes either A. Is upset because it will reduce their epic area soloing abilities, or B. doesnt understand the changes taking place.. there is no C.

So either, we who are okay with this, are either Oblivious, uneducated, or upset about the nerfs?

What about option 4: We understand, and see the nerfs as acceptable/reasonable/needed?

>.>

MoshingChris wrote:

So thats where that came from. . .

On topic

Uce may i also ask that the model for the Efreet is changed.

Already done. *has oogly foresight powers*

The Great Equalizer wrote:

I thought that was what the GS nerf was supposed to do?

+1

Uberuce wrote:

Yep, that's about it. It's flat-out unfair that mages are best/best/oftenbest/prettygood at PvP/PvBoss/partybuddy/solo PvMob We don't want to nerf anyone for group work, so we can nerf mages in PvP/bosskilling, or we can nerf the summons for solo PvMob.

I made the assumption that mages will cling like steroid-fulled limpits to their PvP/PvBoss dominance, so that meant their solo PvM claws needed filing.

Feel free to campaign among the arcane playerbase for a PvP/Boss declaw. I'd actually argue against them, were they to ask for it; as herkles fails to appreciate, there is such a thing as heterogenous balance (not that I think NWN is going to allow it perfectly, especially since it's subjective to the individual player's chosen focus of play), and I'd be sad to see the once/day stompasaurs go.

Regarding the scope of the changes, that's one thing that I have some trepidation about: that the intended target of this is mages, but clerics (outside a certain range of builds) will get hit incidentally. That isn't to say that clerics aren't really good as-is, but they aren't half as good as being pokemon masters as mages (no familiar or Dominate), and they don't have the same range of buffs and debuffs and other offensive tricks to use instead.

If this was intended to hit clerics (and make those who aren't self-contained melee powerhouses feel the pain), that's understandable and I assume a good deal of thought went into it. But I hope that this was an intended effect and not just collateral damage in the War On Mages.

meh, all this discussion and I only have one weapon master that can solo two basic places that most powerbuiders dont even bother in going because they have better places to farm.

I dont know how to build, I play in Amia since july 2007 and I have one epic loot, and one +5 item I bought, cause I cannot solo anywhere with none of my characters and you don't see me here crying.

So many of the players are so good at doing it, that they have hoards of nice things that I only can look at sighs and walk away trying to ignore the existence of such item, because I know I have no access to it. And you folks able to do misery in this game, to grab anything you want, are here crying for a change that will make you a little less powerful?

Meh, I want powerbuilding schooling.

By the way, my almost full cleric sucks by herself. Her summon is soooo weak that makes me want to cry. She is lvl 23 now and that little guy does not help. I can heal greatly, what is good for an ilmaterite, but forget about farming. I can yes, buff people with nice thingies, but it is limited. I cannot buff a full part more than once.

Alynne is a devastating critical and she can do better than all my characters, and after killing the same monster three times without getting nothing, I usually give up. It is so mindlessly boring.

Delarwyn wrote:

I dont know how to build

I don't either, so that's what I used the build thread for! Just using one of the builds there (I mean the ones that are advertised as good ideas, not the ones that have funny titles like "Accountant of Death") worked out pretty well for me.

Quote:

By the way, my almost full cleric sucks by herself. Her summon is soooo weak that makes me want to cry. She is lvl 23 now and that little guy does not help[...] I can yes, buff people with nice thingies, but it is limited. I cannot buff a full part more than once.

My cleric managed to level by finding a weaponmaster to follow, and clinging on for dear life.

Last edited by Delarwyn on Fri, Mar 27 2009, 19:03 PM, edited 1 time in total.

I did take a look on there.. It supposes to be not a bad build and I chose not to get the dragon. Maybe I should have, but there are so many already.

ROFL Standing. I need to find one too..

Maglorine says:

Quote:

Why should this make a difference you say? I don't know about you, but I view a Ranger or Druid traveling without their companion negatively. They are ally, friend, compatriot, brother, what-have-you, to the PC depending on their viewpoint and alignment. If you are in a party with a Ranger or Druid, the companion should be also. For that reason I believe the Companions should be as strong as a reasonably good warrior of similar level. Does that mean they should be as good as the best dev critting weaponmaster? No. But it also doesn't suggest that they be the first to die every time or be viewed as a leech to be jettisoned as soon as possible. Should the Druid or Ranger who insists their companion remain in the party be punished for being true to their RP because a PC would be superior and improve the parties chance of success? IMO, no. My point being, there are valid reasons to want to incentivize Rangers and Druids to keep their companions at their sides that do not exist for spell based summons.

That made sense to me. My druid's bird is her best friend and when he is not in the party I rp as he is flying above them. He is not far from her, never. I dont really care about the summons though... I am only lvl 12 and this is my first druid, so I have no idea of the potential for it anyway.

Kjetta says:

Quote:

I wish that mages were more mysterious, like Gandalf in the LoTR. He's a level 80 wizard or something, yet he seems very cautious with his spells, only tossing them around in dire situations. Perhaps it's a big deal for him to break the laws of nature, I have no clue. And I know that's not at all how Amia/DnD is or should be, but still...

Yep, I like this idea of not abusing their powers. Because for what I know, after using so much powers you should take a break from playing Amia for days so your character would recuperate from using all your body energy and sucking so much power from the weave. Magic is to be used carefully. Of course I am not defending or attacking anyone. I dont even know all that many mages abusing their powers or anything. I just liked the idea. Besides with many spells going around, my character move so slow, it is sad. Damn spell created lag.

Wyjyn wrote:

"learn to play" is comfortably the worst argument I have ever seen, damn irresponcible as well.

It was in response to a player saying he couldn't solo.

"I can't solo" is not a balance issue. "So what" and "good" are just as valid responses from Tormak. He could also have said "get a party" but that's such an insult to the intelligence of said player that I hold it as evidence his reformation to Forum Nice Guy is doing well.

Conversely I'm not going to balance mobs so that powerbuilds built for the task of solo PvMob and operated skillfully couldn't solo them at level 30 when covered in uberloot. If I did, then parties of lower level people that need to XP from them are screwed unless they too are powerbuilds run by powergamers.

Heavyhanded scripted anti-solo measures aren't really our style either. The stick is the lack of carrot; look at the the Xp/lootrate bonuses you miss if you're alone. It's not your fault if there's literally no-one around to RP or party with, so rather than have you log off or idle, it's okay if you do just saddle up and hack'n'slash stuff for a bit then see if things have changed. We just don't care if you can't.

"Learn to play" is in fact the optimum response. It correctly implies that you can solo if you take the time to gain the necessary skill, and equally correctly implies that we won't change things if you can't be arsed.

Xenos wrote:

If the goal is to stop people from Soloing,

For perhaps the fourth time now....*checks* Oh. Actually one of the times I said the goal was in direct reply to you.

Mages are the best at everything except for the occasional times where Bards edge them out because monster saves/immunities mean they can't work status. They're second to Bards and Clerics at solo PvMob, but that still leaves room to be very good, which indeed they are.

That's a crock. No one group should have it all when everyone else has to lose on the swings to gain on the roundabouts.

Now as I just said, soloing is the thing we at Dev/DM Towers tolerate rather than support, so we can either splat your abilities at solo PvP or solo PvMob, and I found the idea of mages volunteering to lose their PvP dominance utterly absurd. Also, it's pretty hard to nerf solo PvP prowess on mages without also nerfing group vs group, and we don't want to touch your party work if we can avoid it.

So I just went right in and ganked the summons, since they don't count for shiznit except in solo PvM.

I really like reading Uberuce's replies. They're so pleasing to the eyes.

Quote:

"I can't solo" is not a balance issue. "So what" and "good" are just as valid responses from Tormak. He could also have said "get a party" but that's such an insult to the intelligence of said player that I hold it as evidence his reformation to Forum Nice Guy is doing well.

I actually think Tormak is doing great as forum Nice Guy.

And I think many people want to solo, because they want the nice things we see some of the folks carrying around. The Black Caravan made it available for some of us not builders. We need now to figure out how to make it available again if they are gone after the war. I believe it would actually bring some balance, because the experts in building would at least get to fight someone with the good loot and not weaklings in both sense. It would even give the powerbuilder some nice fight to fight and not a one blow fight.

I really wouldnt mind you nerfing a wizard's PVP game if their PVM game was improved beyond summoning, buffing fighters or status work i.e evocation got that much needed boost.

Heck, I wouldnt miss Time Stop, Bigby's etc as I never use them.

So... I know I'm not on the server anymore, but I've been peeking into the forums once in a while. I read through much(not all) of the responses to this change and I feel like a few things need to be said.

I think this 'balance' change is ridiculous. Summons are the only real weapon most mages have in PvM and they already suck in PvP.

I saw someone mention Evocation spells as being an alternative weapon for a mage..so..

Evocation spells are horrible in PvM and PvP. Critters have too much DR and resistances for them to be useful at all once you get into Brog, unless you want to do 30 or so damage per casting on a group of frost giants and waste spell slots.

Most people on here who say that mages solo and it's too easy, etc. etc. seem to be purposely forgetting or ignoring the fact that there IS risk when mages solo. GS was already nerfed for that reason.

And, frankly, many of the people I've noticed here talking about how mages farm for epic loot and gear are people who have shameless powerbuilds or farm constantly for gold and loot. I played a mage for years and NEVER got any epic loot. I never got over 1 million gold without my character borrowing from someone else. Mage doesn't automatically mean "This person likes to farm and has a lot of gold. We should punish them."

Hell, most of the powerbuilds I've seen in my time on this server have been melee powerbuilds. Monks with super AC and dragon form, Paladins with UMD, Tumble, and Sneak Attacks, HiPSers with near 100 effective AC, Dev Critting Pale Masters, that cleric who can solo everything, an undead shifter who can solo the Abyss and Actand and only have to drink a couple potions the whole way, etc. etc.

This server is alienating people who don't powerbuild. The people who powerbuild now and solo their asses off will keep doing so with or without this change, the ones who don't know how to build all-powerful mages with high enough AC and saves that they don't die within 6 seconds if they get caught by things in PvM are the ones who you're punishing with this.

It's not the mage class so much as it is the player. If you were to ruin mages so badly that nobody played them, the people who farmed with them would only make other powerbuilds who can run through bosses and spawns faster and keep farming, like many of the people who are speaking in favor of this nerf.

So.. in short.... I think this is a bad move for the server.

P.S.: You shouldn't mention Heal potions when you talk about things a melee player needs to pay for when mages hide behind their summons. It's possible to make them on the server. I won't mention how or where because that's something that should be figured out ICly.

EDIT: And I cannot believe anyone would want to nerf druids.

One way to look at it is to consider the damage you deal and the effective AC/AB you gain from having a summon. Comparing the effects of a single Summon IX spell to another level 9 spell, it was ridicilously powerful before, and it's still an excellent investment. Even if your summon lasts only two spawns, it's still likely to deal more damage than one Bigby's Crushing Hand or whatever.

If it's unthinkable to not spend a few spell slots for Summon Monster, and spending four feats of EDK is a no-brainer rather than a difficult decision, things probably aren't very balanced. In every other D&D based game, in NWN and NWN2, in most other servers, summons are meatshields you throw into the fray for distraction and some extra damage. Only on Amia have they become a standard party member, competing with some PCs in power.

New people who come to Amia will still be amazed by the beefiness of the summons. Old players will simply experiene some 10% less hits and damage.

IronAngel wrote:

If it's unthinkable to not spend a few spell slots for Summon Monster, and spending four feats of EDK is a no-brainer rather than a difficult decision, things probably aren't very balanced.

I disagree regarding EDK being a no-brainer... it hardly fits anywhere, and in the places where it does fit like the Abyss, it dies really fast unless you have it covered with AC buffs and improved invisibility. Even in a party of four ECL 28+ PCs to take the heat as well, I had to feed the EDK a heal every spawn (or every other, I forget) to keep it from dying.

I think the only place I've found it really useful is in the Frozen Wastes.

The Big Fat Summon and Dominate/Control Nerf

Who is online