AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic - The Big Fat Summon and Dominate/Control Nerf

Mr Mago wrote:

Wait a second. So you're saying that wizards/sorcerers should be on par with dev-critting fighters/WMs, using only their offensive spells?

Hell no. No under any circumstances. If they can pump out as much damage as a fighter or weapon master consistently that's bad. I expect them to be able to keep it up for a few spawns (a good build could easily tear through the entire Spires), but when it comes down to it a melee class should always beat mages in pure damage.

TormakSaber wrote:

Quote:

.....And nerf Dev Crit in that case, since ALOT of melee characters use that to solo the Abyss too.

Go roll me up a level 30 WM with Dev that soloes the abyss and I'll eat my hat. It''s not doable. Soloing the Abyss and actand is the purview of spellcasters. A meleer with no friend is stuck 2-3 rungs down the ladder.

That's a challenge I leave to Ruce.

Honestly though all the other good spells are nerfed. Shapechange bites, elemental shields suck, every good spell is gone...and for what? To stop the few all WIZ's who can solo an area?

Sorry but in effect you're castrating all the people who had RP builds based on summons.

I understand the need to keep a balanced server but honestly I have yet to see any caster who couldn't be dropped and there's a point where the idea for an RP build should negate my need for another powerbuild.

Tormak, you said I should make a better build, not directly I know but I get the jist of it...but honestly should that be the first thing on my mind when making a character? Because in all honesty I made my character based on the idea that my summons was strong. I RP'd someone who liked the idea of controlling undead rather then becoming one...and what's the point if every summons sucks?

So in essence, you are taking away someone's Dev Crit.....

Also note not every player is a lvl 30 mage, most people Multiclass. There are in fact NOT MANY pure lv 30 mages. You are weakening EVERY WIZ multiclasser to weaken these few lvl 30 mages and I don't think it's a good trade off.

Geld Yaztran wrote:

Tormak, you said I should make a better build, not directly I know but I get the jist of it

no I think he was saying learn to play the class, like dont throw fireballs at a fire elemental.(yes I know you might not do that but you get the jist)

Uberuce wrote:

Their defensive abilities are almost all untouched, but their AB and damage per hit have taken a dive of between two and five, depending on how epic they are.

...

The Summons from I-VII and the lowbie Planar spells are also untouched as yet....

I doubt lessening AB/Damage per hit by 2-5 can somehow compare to the removal of dev crit, nor does it make the summons "sucky".

Honestly that's bull crap. I'd trade ALLLL my summons AC for really high damage/good AB...cause I can summon another so it's AC is irrelevant.

This is one of those things that makes the server worse not better, because this whole thing is based on lvl 30 wizards, which I don't recall them ever running rampant around the server......

PM summons should be exempt from this.

Where to start...

Geld Yaztran wrote:

Honestly though all the other good spells are nerfed. Shapechange bites, elemental shields suck, every good spell is gone...and for what? To stop the few all WIZ's who can solo an area?

-Shapechange is BETTER then the Bioware standard, You've infinite slaad fireballs, dragon breath.
-Elemental Shield hasn't been touched. The fact it stacked with acid scheath in the first place was just Ugh!
-Ever played an offencive cleric caster before? Mages can't complain.

No, it's not to stop a few wizards, it's for balance reasons. In case you haven't noticed Mages are still kings of the server in PvM and PvP.

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Sorry but in effect you're castrating all the people who had RP builds based on summons.

I understand the need to keep a balanced server but honestly I have yet to see any caster who couldn't be dropped and there's a point where the idea for an RP build should negate my need for another powerbuild.

2-5 AB isn't the end of the world. It's a minor change. Your summons still have their AC and DR, they'll just hit 1/10 attacks less. Stop making it out like it's the end of the world.

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Tormak, you said I should make a better build, not directly I know but I get the jist of it...but honestly should that be the first thing on my mind when making a character? Because in all honesty I made my character based on the idea that my summons was strong. I RP'd someone who liked the idea of controlling undead rather then becoming one...and what's the point if every summons sucks?

2-5 AB isn't the end of the world. It's a minor change. Your summons still have their AC and DR, they'll just hit 1/10 attacks less. Stop making it out like it's the end of the world.

Quote:

So in essence, you are taking away someone's Dev Crit.....

2-5 AB isn't the end of the world. It's a minor change. Your summons still have their AC and DR, they'll just hit 1/10 attacks less. Stop making it out like it's the end of the world.

Quote:

Also note not every player is a lvl 30 mage, most people Multiclass. There are in fact NOT MANY pure lv 30 mages. You are weakening EVERY WIZ multiclasser to weaken these few lvl 30 mages and I don't think it's a good trade off.

Believe it or not, it's generally the multiclassers that do all the soloing. You have your 29 sorc/1 rangers, your 26 sorc/2 rogue/2 BGs, your 26 sorc/1 paladin/2 rogues, your 23 sorc/1 ranger/6 SDs, you have your 26 sorc/3 BG/1 monks... funny enough they're all sorcerors.

So all I say to that... is Good. They can multiclass some more to make up for some single hair on the head, minscule, minor, tiny, unnoticeable changes that most have considered the end of the world.

As I said earlier... if this wasn't posted on the forums, it's so minscule I bet noone would have noticed.

Good lord. We are talking a loss of 2-5 AB for summons. What is the freakin deal? They're still your meatshield that no other non-casting class has.

Man... learn to party. End of story. I just cannot believe this "sky is falling" stuff. Wow.

krytellan wrote:

Good lord. We are talking a loss of 2-5 AB for summons. What is the freakin deal? They're still your meatshield that no other non-casting class has.

Man... learn to party. End of story. I just cannot believe this "sky is falling" stuff. Wow.

No noncasting class without UMD

It's more or less tradition for at least some people of the class/ability group being toned down to come in and scream bloody murder, regardless of what the actual changes are.

If the changes are oh-so miniscule and irrelevant, and not going to make much of an effect......then why the hell would all the time be wasted to MAKE the changes?

Answer: It wouldn't.

The fact the change is being made, is enough proof all on it's own, that the change will make a noticable difference. Not to mention the fact that the change was posted about before being implemented. If it was a minimal-impact change, then it'd be posted just like 99% of the other changes that get done - as a footnote in Disco's update announcements.

So don't harrass people who aren't thrilled with the concept based on your ill-conceived notion that it won't make much of an impact, if any. (incidentally "your" refers to anyone in this thread who IS arguing against people who don't like the change, not the previous poster, or any other individual specifically).

THAT SAID.....I played Amia long ago, before the summons got uber-fied in the first place. Frankly, almost anything short of nerfing them back to bioware standards, is STILL better than what Amia used to have only 2-3 short years ago. Because if anyone DOESN'T remember just how utterly PATHETIC the default summons are....well, go test it out on some other server that hasn't beefed the summons. Bioware default summons are worthless against anything on Amia.

Personally though, I'm more interested in seeing broken/useless summons "fixed", and made useful, than I am in seeing the summons as they are being nerfed. I don't think it is necessary. I think it's a waste of time to worry about summons that are performing adequetly (or wonderfully), when there's summons that don't perform at all, that need priority help. ie/ Blackguard CE book summon (which is a complete non-performer).

Either way, the change IS being made. Since none of us can see how the new summons will perform until such time as they are in place and testable, there seems minimal point in telling someone that the change won't make much difference, when in fact, it very well might. After all, there's feats that give a minimal 1 or 2 AB, and those seem to make a difference.

Cori wrote:

So don't harrass people who aren't thrilled with the concept based on your ill-conceived notion that it won't make much of an impact, if any. (incidentally "your" refers to anyone in this thread who IS arguing against people who don't like the change, not the previous poster, or any other individual specifically).

Yeah... but it is a -game-. A video game we all play, I thought, to get away from real life and enjoy ourselves. Uberuce decided that something could be done to encourage teamwork and balance things. Increased teamwork = increased fun for more players.

Seriously guys. It's a game we play on the best server I have ever played on for a game that is largely outdated. I don't pay to play on Amia, do you? Seriously, relax. One of your pixelated summons can now not cut through mobs as quickly as it used to. Is this the end of the world? No. It increases reliance on other players. You may not know this, but this is largely a GOOD thing. Why do people have such a hard time accepting changes?

Take a breath. Step back and ask yourself if when you wake up in the morning this is really going to ruin your life. The ability to roll with changes is a great ability to have in life. Why not try learning to do that better here?

Game. Fun. Fantasy. Free. All reasons to chill. Someone made a decision. Someone, who I might add, has a lot of credibility in my book. That's all I need to say have at it. Change away. I will take a small hit to my uber solo loot if that's what's better for the server. Although my credibility falls away when I say I have never epic soloed. Admitted and guilty. Because it is not all that fun.

I feel like I'm alone in this line of thinking, but I can't understand why.

You're not.

Every change makes a difference, because every change makes the game different....unfortunately not for the better in this case.

The only ones who'll think this is a good idea are only the people who don't want to lose to Caster's, simple as that, and those are the only ones who benefit from it...no one else.

That's why I'm against the change. In terms PvM this change means nothing. Why anyone would worry about a lvl 30 being able to solo is ridiculous. They're lvl 30. They should be able to solo.

Hell, I can't even remember the last time I actually "hunted/trained" with my highest character.

People actually waste their time doing that?.....

And would people please stuff the "it's only a game" crap? Every player who has typed that has complained on these forums as well about things they were dissatisfied with....and the DMs have a right to know the players opinions about changes they make if nothing else to gauge the reaction before or because the change.

If I play Halo one day and it becomes Tetris another, then yes, change makes a difference.

Dwagin wrote:

Mago:

Comparable pwnage for a fighter vs mage caster, over the course of 16 minutes (Keep in mind thats the limit of mage damage ouput. Spells per 16 minutes.)

Devcrit-G.Cleave, Devcrit G.cleave, Devcrit G.cleave, Dev-crit.

You don't get G.cleave with dev. crits.

TormakSaber wrote:

In the politest of terms, the most I can really say is "learn to play".

Given I've already stated in this threadI haven't touched any undead but the Death Domain top dogs, then I would amend that advice to Geld and make it 'learn to read'.

Yurell wrote:

Quote:

Go roll me up a level 30 WM with Dev that soloes the abyss and I'll eat my hat. It''s not doable. Soloing the Abyss and actand is the purview of spellcasters. A meleer with no friend is stuck 2-3 rungs down the ladder.

That's a challenge I leave to Ruce.

Maybe, if I rejigged Stillborn back to onehander, and went from 11/19 to 12/16/2, bossfarmed senseless till he got enough uberloot, stocked up on Haste wands, bossdrums and Premo/Imp invis scrolls and the aforementioned bathtub of Heals, I could do it. Maybe...two or three months of 2 hours per night farming would get the kit I need.

Or....I could get my Cleric, drive her to the Manor, bust out the Mummyduster while she picked up a Coven Leader, port to Zan, and then superglue the Abyss's hands to its feet so the two of them could anally rape the demons till their eyes exploded. With the new node right by the front door, that'd take around six minutes. She was able to peform that feat at any point from level 21 onwards.

Geld Yaztran wrote:

The only ones who'll think this is a good idea are only the people who don't want to lose to Caster's, simple as that, and those are the only ones who benefit from it...no one else.

That's why I'm against the change. In terms PvM this change means nothing. Why anyone would worry about a lvl 30 being able to solo is ridiculous. They're lvl 30. They should be able to solo.

I'm confused... I thought the popular opinion was that summons are crap in PvP? And if in terms of PVM this change means nothing, then why would a lvl 30 intending to solo epic places indeed worry about this change?

555444333 wrote:

out the wazoo = I've got o much crap it's coming out my ass and yet there is more

Now that's what I call a good contribution to this topic. Never would have guessed it meant that. Thanks you!

Is that because most of the undead summons are already useless enough as it is? I used to think it was cool that the sand minotaurs could barely touch the normal lvl 12 wraith (even though it could do nothing to them)...then i suddenly realised that the sand minotaurs are complete tarts which serve only as bags of xp/loot. Sure if your PC can fight at least half decently then thats great but most wizzie's never bother summoning it.

Rather than nerfing those summons which most are already, lets face it, surprisingly lackluster esp compared to a fighter of equal level, it'd be good to see some of the useless summons become viable options - CE BGs, Evil gates (havent seen the level 27 Pit fiend - fingers crossed that bad boy finally gets enough game to take down that pack of northen wolves)

Wyjyn: Loving all of you (and above all Disco) since 11 Jan 2007.

"learn to play" is comfortably the worst argument I have ever seen, damn irresponcible as well. Don't compare the peak example of a class powerbuild to what the players actually use in general, thankyou.

Uberuce, that is a 'potential' tactic. What about a cleric who won't use control undead or summon undead? hmm? My mage doesnt use illusion or necromancy spells, because that is his character. Something seemingly forgotten by the likes of mago is that this is a roleplay server and being an expert isnt a pre-requisite to play here.

Wyjyn wrote:

Something seemingly forgotten by the likes of mago is that this is a roleplay server and being an expert isnt a pre-requisite to play here.

Nor is it a pre-requisite, nor a promess that you'll be able to solo the entire server with your poorly RP-built wizard, with 0% risk of dying and 100% of the rewards.

Ohhhh......okay. I did read that part but I wanted confirmation.

Blackdragon12121 wrote:

Rather than nerfing those summons which most are already, lets face it, surprisingly lackluster esp compared to a fighter of equal level, it'd be good to see some of the useless summons become viable options - CE BGs, Evil gates (havent seen the level 27 Pit fiend - fingers crossed that bad boy finally gets enough game to take down that pack of northen wolves)

The evil gate summon (pit fiend) is actually quite good, even without the CL 27 beefed up version of it.

I used to employ it rather frequently at the yuan-ti, and it was highly effective.

Quote:

"learn to play" is comfortably the worst argument I have ever seen, damn irresponcible as well. Don't compare the peak example of a class powerbuild to what the players actually use in general, thankyou.

A wiz 30 isn't a peak powerbuild.

"Learn to play" is a viable arguement. If make a wizard and choose to give myself 20 max int and 30 charisma, I have no room to comment when my spells are not as effective. There is a certain skill curve one must assume when playing a game. This is often why games get harder towards te end of the game: Not only (oftentimes) has the player's ingame persona progressed or become more powerful, but over the course of playing the game, the player has *gotten better* at it.

Quote:

Uberuce, that is a 'potential' tactic. What about a cleric who won't use control undead or summon undead? hmm? My mage doesnt use illusion or necromancy spells, because that is his character. Something seemingly forgotten by the likes of mago is that this is a roleplay server and being an expert isnt a pre-requisite to play her

Clericbuff + Summon IX or Gate or EDK works just as well. And again, being an expert may not be required to play, or even do well her,e but there is a certain level of competency that one must assume is picked up by even basic time on Amia. These are things like "Greater MAgic Weaponing my tank is better than lobbing a Fireball" or "Horrid Wilting is less effective here; let's try Great Thunderclap and let my summon/friends munch them" or etc.

We all appreciate you taking the time to play devil's advocate but you're not helping the opposition's position. "They can't play well at all" isn't a reason to give them a crutch, they should be eased off it so they can play better, or whatever. This is implied ICly, as well: The OOC skill curve along with levelling up shows that you have a better understanding of magic and what spell to use when.

And essentially calling the people you're arguing for too stupid to learn to play isn't the best idea either....

Wyjyn wrote:

Uberuce, that is a 'potential' tactic. What about a cleric who won't use control undead or summon undead? hmm? My mage doesnt use illusion or necromancy spells, because that is his character. Something seemingly forgotten by the likes of mago is that this is a roleplay server and being an expert isnt a pre-requisite to play here.

Get a party?

Heh, I was trying to avoid that arguement because it would be brushed off as being as fallacious as "Learn to play" but yes, I consider it valid, if not my intended route here.

Wyjyn: Loving all of you (and above all Disco) since 11 Jan 2007.

I am not saying that, I am saying that they play a character. The point of RPGs is that you play a character, so you dont necessarily need skill your character is the one with it which develops as a response to setting. My character developed in a certain way, now depending on this change that is denied in favour of skill. If I wanted skill, in building or in playing I would have played a game with a higher skill roof such as starcraft, quake 3, etc. Those are skill games, this is an RPG where storyline is meant to come first especially as this is a RP server.

I oppose all changes like this, because they deny character development. I oppose biowares as well to a degree, provided they arent just bug fixes. However, I cannot potentially do anything about biowares but here I can. Now, if this had all been the case fromt eh start it would have been fine, my character would have been ICly forced to join a party etc. Makes sense, but as it is he was able to take a loner approach due to how the server was, if the change in EDK means he can no longer I at least want an in character reason for the change that I can respond to. So it makes some degree of sense.

Blackdragon12121 wrote:

Rather than nerfing those summons which most are already, lets face it, surprisingly lackluster esp compared to a fighter of equal level, it'd be good to see some of the useless summons become viable options - CE BGs, Evil gates (havent seen the level 27 Pit fiend - fingers crossed that bad boy finally gets enough game to take down that pack of northen wolves)

They're not meant to replace fighters or a party.

Monsters, IMO, shouldn't be designed to cater for powerbuilds except as an option at the high end. Everything should be possible with a party of four average builds ... and short of the Abyss (or maybe including this), it is.

The problem is this: If there was a problem with the solo PvMing you buff up the monsters, not weaken one of many types of solo artists while keeping the others just fine.

Which means this has more to do with PvP than PvM.

One too many wizard players summoned up some damage with a side of dragon.

Wyjyn wrote:

I am not saying that, I am saying that they play a character. The point of RPGs is that you play a character, so you dont necessarily need skill your character is the one with it which develops as a response to setting. My character developed in a certain way, now depending on this change that is denied in favour of skill. If I wanted skill, in building or in playing I would have played a game with a higher skill roof such as starcraft, quake 3, etc. Those are skill games, this is an RPG where storyline is meant to come first especially as this is a RP server.

Sorry, but I'm having trouble following the relationship of these changes to any character's RP... Considering that people can just retcon these changes into their RP, reduction of summon AB/Damage by 2-5 can really deal that much damage to a character's profile? Please enlighten me..

Geld Yaztran wrote:

The problem is this: If there was a problem with the solo PvMing you buff up the monsters, not weaken one of many types of solo artists while keeping the others just fine.

Which means this has more to do with PvP than PvM.

Actually, the monsters have been beefed up in several places.

And it really has nothing to do with PvP at all.

Mr Mago wrote:

Blackdragon12121 wrote:

Rather than nerfing those summons which most are already, lets face it, surprisingly lackluster esp compared to a fighter of equal level, it'd be good to see some of the useless summons become viable options - CE BGs, Evil gates (havent seen the level 27 Pit fiend - fingers crossed that bad boy finally gets enough game to take down that pack of northen wolves)

The evil gate summon (pit fiend) is actually quite good, even without the CL 27 beefed up version of it.

I used to employ it rather frequently at the yuan-ti, and it was highly effective.

Funnily enough, the yaun ti are also big juicy bags of xp and +4 loot. Incidently, this is why i spend most of my time on Amia B and only return to A to pick up my animal friendship rings and magical berrys from the grove (which i found out in addition to haste, 1d10 fire/ice damage, also give a degree of elemental resistant to its respective elment - seriously could this item be any more broken) or to farm the spider queen for bags etc.

Well done on server B by the way. Its truely reinvented amia for me in terms or the action aspect. Its also far more of a challenge and actually REQUIRES you to try and find a party when adventuring.

Wyjyn wrote:

"learn to play" is comfortably the worst argument I have ever seen, damn irresponcible as well. Don't compare the peak example of a class powerbuild to what the players actually use in general, thankyou.

Uberuce, that is a 'potential' tactic. What about a cleric who won't use control undead or summon undead? hmm? My mage doesnt use illusion or necromancy spells, because that is his character. Something seemingly forgotten by the likes of mago is that this is a roleplay server and being an expert isnt a pre-requisite to play here.

I have to agree here, with pretty much that entire post.

That said, I have no issue with adding a nerf to controlled monsters to make them less uber. I would however much prefer to see attention given to the summons which are utterly worthless. Wraiths certainly come to mind. The BG having the same summon from low levels to mid-epic, for a fiend, comes to mind. CE BG book summon. Most caster-based summons. The abysmal lantern archon summon (what is it, summon 2 I think? Too lazy to check, but I do remember off hand that summon 1's dog is better than the lantern archon).

If those things are going to be made useful, in addition to other things that are allegedly overpowered being nerfed, then I have much less of a problem with this.

If it has noting to do wth PvP and the monsters are beefed up, then why not...uh...beef them up more...obviously they're not beefy enough then....why go through ALL the hassle of nerfing these summons because a few Wiz's can solo a hellpit?

Can someone please just scream out "THIS IS BECAUSE PVP and We're tired of seeing the wizard win...you mean mean wiz!!"

Because all the talk of solo PvMing as a reason sounds like sugar coated bull or a really lame reason for nerfing.

Wyjyn wrote:

I am not saying that, I am saying that they play a character. The point of RPGs is that you play a character, so you dont necessarily need skill your character is the one with it which develops as a response to setting. My character developed in a certain way, now depending on this change that is denied in favour of skill. If I wanted skill, in building or in playing I would have played a game with a higher skill roof such as starcraft, quake 3, etc. Those are skill games, this is an RPG where storyline is meant to come first especially as this is a RP server.

Sorry, but I'm having trouble following the relationship of these changes to any character's RP... Considering that people can just retcon these changes into their RP, reduction of summon AB/Damage by 2-5 can really deal that much damage to a character's profile? Please enlighten me..

Like I said since we are going to be using summons as defence rather than offence i would like to see our offencive to be offensive.. considiering alot of the bosss are immune to most tactics. I would like to see the bosses become kill able on 1's from a wail,so using them as defence becomes more viable

Magnum Opera wrote:

Wyjyn wrote:

Uberuce, that is a 'potential' tactic. What about a cleric who won't use control undead or summon undead? hmm? My mage doesnt use illusion or necromancy spells, because that is his character. Something seemingly forgotten by the likes of mago is that this is a roleplay server and being an expert isnt a pre-requisite to play here.

Get a party?

*gasp* Trying to get us to RP with others to set up a party? How could you!

Really Evil Pigeon wrote:

Like I said since we are going to be using summons as defence rather than offence i would like to see our offencive to be offensive.. considiering alot of the bosss are immune to most tactics. I would like to see the bosses become kill able on 1's from a wail,so using them as defence becomes more viable

Aren't they already? I know ASB at least fails fort saves, and I don't see why it would have death magic immunity.

Wyjyn wrote:

I am not saying that, I am saying that they play a character. The point of RPGs is that you play a character, so you dont necessarily need skill your character is the one with it which develops as a response to setting. My character developed in a certain way, now depending on this change that is denied in favour of skill. If I wanted skill, in building or in playing I would have played a game with a higher skill roof such as starcraft, quake 3, etc. Those are skill games, this is an RPG where storyline is meant to come first especially as this is a RP server.

I oppose all changes like this, because they deny character development. I oppose biowares as well to a degree, provided they arent just bug fixes. However, I cannot potentially do anything about biowares but here I can. Now, if this had all been the case fromt eh start it would have been fine, my character would have been ICly forced to join a party etc. Makes sense, but as it is he was able to take a loner approach due to how the server was, if the change in EDK means he can no longer I at least want an in character reason for the change that I can respond to. So it makes some degree of sense.

You are, if you indeed play the game in this holiest of holy way, part of a minority. The majority on this server (and I think we're talking well over the 90%) takes the NWN classes/feats/skills/etc with a well-deserved grain of salt and looks at what you can do with your character sheet in a game-mechanical way. Most RP could be perfectly well played if we randomised all character sheets on entry, but you'd be messed up in combat. It's what you get with a game that's 99% combat oriented.

I don't say that's how it should be, but that's still how it is. You now have the choice: balance based on reality, or balance based on utopia?

Geld Yaztran wrote:

If it has noting to do wth PvP and the monsters are beefed up, then why not...uh...beef them up more...obviously they're not beefy enough then....why go through ALL the hassle of nerfing these summons because a few Wiz's can solo a hellpit?

Can someone please just scream out "THIS IS BECAUSE PVP and We're tired of seeing the wizard win...you mean mean wiz!!"

Because all the talk of solo PvMing as a reason sounds like sugar coated bull or a really lame reason for nerfing.

1) Beefing up the monsters would mean nothing. Just slow down the XP-gain of the entire server. Because, basically, you'ld need to be of higher level to hunt the same spot with the same party because the monsters would hand you your asses for just a bit longer.
It would make the whole server weaker, but mainly harm the non GS/invis classes as they get the flak from the stronger monsters rather then sit behind their summons. Balancing means to make things more equal for all, not the opposite.

2) PvP wins just through summoning stuff means you are up against a bad build or bad player. They can be a tool to win, but if they are your sole means of winning in PvP then maybe you should start to learn your other spells and use them in combination with your summons.

Wyjyn, did you really just say I shouldn't nerf Control Undead out of consideration for people that don't use it? My head hurts. "if the change in EDK means he can no longer I at least want an in character reason for the change that I can respond to" As I said a couple of pages back, all we can do is apologise for taking so long to fix this balance issue that you had time to base some of your RP off it.

Geld Yaztran wrote:

Can someone please just scream out "THIS IS BECAUSE PVP and We're tired of seeing the wizard win...you mean mean wiz!!"

Yep, that's about it. It's flat-out unfair that mages are best/best/oftenbest/prettygood at PvP/PvBoss/partybuddy/solo PvMob We don't want to nerf anyone for group work, so we can nerf mages in PvP/bosskilling, or we can nerf the summons for solo PvMob.

I made the assumption that mages will cling like steroid-fulled limpits to their PvP/PvBoss dominance, so that meant their solo PvM claws needed filing.

Feel free to campaign among the arcane playerbase for a PvP/Boss declaw. I'd actually argue against them, were they to ask for it; as herkles fails to appreciate, there is such a thing as heterogenous balance (not that I think NWN is going to allow it perfectly, especially since it's subjective to the individual player's chosen focus of play), and I'd be sad to see the once/day stompasaurs go.

Yurell wrote:

Blackdragon12121 wrote:

Rather than nerfing those summons which most are already, lets face it, surprisingly lackluster esp compared to a fighter of equal level, it'd be good to see some of the useless summons become viable options - CE BGs, Evil gates (havent seen the level 27 Pit fiend - fingers crossed that bad boy finally gets enough game to take down that pack of northen wolves)

They're not meant to replace fighters or a party.

Monsters, IMO, shouldn't be designed to cater for powerbuilds except as an option at the high end. Everything should be possible with a party of four average builds ... and short of the Abyss (or maybe including this), it is.

*sigh* I know they are not meant to replace fighters...the problem is that everyone seems to think they can. Cartain summons are very powerful. EDK is one that should be that powerful purely because its an epic spell. Its duration really could do with some looking at however. Its still not as good a str based fighter and id still rather have one along.

Last edited by Uberuce on Thu, Mar 26 2009, 11:59 AM, edited 3 times in total.

I'm openminded to nerfing duration of brainwash/summons right down, but again I made the assumption that the playerbase wouldn't want that.

Feel free to campaign among them for the reverse, though.

Oh, before I forget, when you sent that Pitfiend into Brog what buffs did it have? I tried replicating the result with a White Slaad CL27 that I'd not buffed STR/DEX/CON/AC as much (to account for the 5 level drop to the CL22 Gate)and it wiped the floor with them. In terms of AB/AC/STR/creature weapon they're clones of each other, but the Slaad does have much more Cold DR, if I recall.

Blackdragon12121 wrote:

Yurell wrote:

Blackdragon12121 wrote:

Rather than nerfing those summons which most are already, lets face it, surprisingly lackluster esp compared to a fighter of equal level, it'd be good to see some of the useless summons become viable options - CE BGs, Evil gates (havent seen the level 27 Pit fiend - fingers crossed that bad boy finally gets enough game to take down that pack of northen wolves)

They're not meant to replace fighters or a party.

Monsters, IMO, shouldn't be designed to cater for powerbuilds except as an option at the high end. Everything should be possible with a party of four average builds ... and short of the Abyss (or maybe including this), it is.

*sigh* I know they are not meant to replace fighters...the problem is that everyone seems to think they can. Cartain summons are very powerful. EDK is one that should be that powerful purely because its an epic spell. Its duration really could do with some looking at however. Its still not as good a str based fighter and id still rather have one along.

Even with, say, 21 levels of wizard, it lasts 21 minutes (if you invested in ESF(conj)). You can rest every 15. Ergo, it's duration is effectively limitless.

Uberuce wrote:

I'm openminded to nerfing duration of brainwash/summons right down, but again I made the assumption that the playerbase wouldn't want that.

Feel free to campaign among them for the reverse, though.

I am inclined to think you made the right choice.

I still think a duration nerf across the board would be a good idea. Certain summons should be hit harder that others - EDK for example should be hit hard but it should be able to own most things that it comes across (which it does pretty well as it is at the moment). This also goes some way to limit reckless scroll abuse too and improve caster type summons. Overall this would allow the summons to be more of a situational thing limiting the wizzies ability to solo which was the initial aim right?

I think I'd rather that proposal was taken to a new thread; this one promises to be enough of a clanking behemoth already.

Can you answer the question I edited in about the Pitfiend in Brog? Curiousity, and such.

If this nerf means that people running around epic areas will invite you to join them instead of taking the 'bugger off. The area, and it's loot, are all mine' road then I say do it.

It really sucks when you get a good party, RP and travel to an area only to find a caster with Summons, dominated spawns, and familiar buffed to the nines who is unwilling to join your group of 4 other PCs as they will have to dump something and share loot.

Don't respond with 'maybe they are built to summon' as that is really no excuse and 'you' know it. Feel free to respond with 'maybe they don't like you (in or out of character)'. I honestly think that if someone is solo in an area they should move on if a party arrives, if this encourages more part PvM then solo then good.

Allow me to rant my disdain for mages in Amia/DnD. This is why:

Halen in A Natural Disaster Strikes in DM events wrote:

*Even during all the commotion with the Monolith, Halen travels to the mountain town, and begins to cast something rarely used by him. With the conjuring of energies into his hand he holds up his palm. From the ball of arcane energies disc covered in runes forms. From this disc, a Silver dragon flies out, and carries Halen aloft to the site.

Once there, Halen searches for life amongst the rubble, using Stone to Flesh to help make removal of debris easier in delicate situations.. if somewhat strange. Stoneskin and endurance cast upon those pinned to help stabilize them and prevent further injury. Throughout the noon and evening, spells are released to help clean up the town, and protect those drawn from the ruins. The dragon that carried him there begins moving larger boulders and forming piles for disposal.*

This is nothing against Halen, mind you, this is what epic mages are in Amia/DnD, walking deus ex plot devices.

I swear, whenever I make an event I have to spend a ridicilous amount of time to ensure that it doesn't turn into a "watch the mage solve problems" show.

I wish that mages were more mysterious, like Gandalf in the LoTR. He's a level 80 wizard or something, yet he seems very cautious with his spells, only tossing them around in dire situations. Perhaps it's a big deal for him to break the laws of nature, I have no clue. And I know that's not at all how Amia/DnD is or should be, but still...

A pointless rant, I know, but it helped geting it off my chest. You may continue with your dragons (but please don't summon them inside houses, it makes no sense!)

Xenos wrote:

i swear to god i want to kick a dog in the nuts every time i hear someone say something like "Mages suck it up". If you dont have something better to do the LOL at another clases nerfs, however big or small they may be, then dont post.

Just got back to the thread after posting yesterday and read your reply to my post. I sincerely apologise if I upset you. I reread the post and have to admit, its strongly worded. Feel free to kick me in the cyber nuts for it.

I still stand by the general point though. The mage is an extremely versatile class. The most versatile in the game. And I don't think you have to be one of the server designers to work out ways to exploit spawns' weaknesses and blitzkrieg them. I've done it myself with an uber-nerfed mage and I know nothing about the game's mechanics - just did it through trial and error and a little thought. I feel that players who think these changes will in some way nerf their ability to play need to experiment more and not rely on the same old box of tricks.

I've actually witnessed a lvl 19 mage soloing the illithids...don't know how far he got but he'd managed to clear four rooms when I stumbled upon him. The point being he could do this without epic summons and feats...just with a little thought and invention. (and a lot of resting

). If certain spells have taken a small hit, it's not the end of the world, IMV

I'm going to make a case here for Animal Companions not going under the knife.

I don't know about the loremasters here but I've been playing DnD a long time and have always viewed familiars and animal companions much differently than summons. They have a bond with their adventurer, be it a mental and/or emotional and/or physical one. The summons, whether Mundane, Supernatural, or Epic does not.

Why should this make a difference you say? I don't know about you, but I view a Ranger or Druid traveling without their companion negatively. They are ally, friend, compatriot, brother, what-have-you, to the PC depending on their viewpoint and alignment. If you are in a party with a Ranger or Druid, the companion should be also. For that reason I believe the Companions should be as strong as a reasonably good warrior of similar level. Does that mean they should be as good as the best dev critting weaponmaster? No. But it also doesn't suggest that they be the first to die every time or be viewed as a leech to be jettisoned as soon as possible. Should the Druid or Ranger who insists their companion remain in the party be punished for being true to their RP because a PC would be superior and improve the parties chance of success? IMO, no. My point being, there are valid reasons to want to incentivize Rangers and Druids to keep their companions at their sides that do not exist for spell based summons.

I understand that the value being pursued here is to drive players to party up and eliminate riskless soloing. However, I don't think weakening companions such that druid and ranger players desire to replace them in the party with PC's can be viewed as a positive enhancement, it's a tradeoff not a tradeup.

By the way, I do not play an Epic Druid or Ranger, this is just my opinion and viewpoint on what needs changing and what doesn't.

I do have an Epic Mage who has EDK, Gate, etc.....and have no problems whatsoever with the changes proposed especially the aspect of making dominates less buffable. He (the mage) can go anywhere he wants and can level so quickly and easily alone that it's almost boring and definitely low/no risk.

I assume I'll get some disagreement so have at it.

The Big Fat Summon and Dominate/Control Nerf

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