You're suggesting that we nerf the wizards even further?
Since you can't cast spells while shapechanged, it's usually not an issue in PvP, with the exception of wizards/sorcerers using their dragon familiar to spot the location of the hider, and cast spells in that direction.
It is a rather unrelated change that I would hardly call a nerf. Unaltered TS shouldn't exist, period, ESPECIALLY with just 1 level of Wizard or Sorcerer. However, I can understand it maybe being left on Dragonshape and EDK, because those are epic feats and such. And shifters aren't usually strong enough to do much, so I can give them TS on their higher level forms.
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I would like to state that I really feel sorry for some of you people.
It always the same people I see replying to these topics and it really makes me wonder why. I dont care if its unbalanced or if some people think its unfair. Or even all those of you who will powerbuild for the new system and calculate every stupid point just to maximise your chances.
I salute all those other players it is my distinct pleasure to rp with on Amia who -dont- moan and whine and need to see every little number tweaked for some reason.
Leave Amia alone and enjoy it as it is please.
only playing my shifter have never played a person who uses summons so looking at the change it seems like nothing big,but it matters too people who are the ones effected
Why do you think shifters were not on the top of the list, it's because very few people play them who cares if they suck its only only effects about 10 people and only one who will "moan and whine" I'm sure if they kept all the peoples animal companions vanilla NWN you would see alot of people up in arms.
staff has to deal with the problem that effects the most people and how large, because balance works on lots of diffrence levels, if class balance does not matter then item and spawn balance would not matter. on that note, I got about the combined total of 100 Intermediate/Greater mythals can I have a 25d6 fire,acid,sonic and cold sword I R HAZ TEH MATZ
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Request: Please remove power attack from the EDK while you're at it.
Crux of it: Wizards, who effectively have nearly nil->no chance of dying if played properly at epic levels even post GS nerf in the current dynamic needs addressed, that is why summons are being nerfed, can't have your safe-cake and eat it too.
Suggestions:
Overhaul summons, make them nothing but high hitpoint/DR fodder which have a unique immunity or something that they offer. Be it damage type or status effect immunity and physical durability etc etc. Have summon hitpoints that scale with clvl to give a wizard something tactically from varying on their nukes/enemies in the module.
Secondly in conjunction with the nerf to summons offensive capabilities, I suggest the cloud/evards/fog spells to give better damage output over time/duration and scale to caster lvl30. Make them into area effect 'nukers', give them a concentration check too, this'd let mages nuke 'an area' over time with fewer spell uses per day, letting them have some decent 'all day damage'. Also add BoT pages for the AoE spells to allow you to modulate their damage types. It'd also be something one could easily avoid in PvP, but it's damage could be high enough in PvE to be useful so you'd only 'need' maybe 1-2 spells per spawn, instead of 5-6 damage spells, but slow enough to not be OMFGWTFBBQ.
In theory it'd sort of look like this: Send in fodder, Start nuking the mobs around the fodder beast with the AoE Damage over time. Mobs fall over after x-amount of time, or fodder summon does, forcing the mage to either finish them with big damage burst AoE with things like fireball/ice storm/etc, or status effect, and let the familiar chew up the remaining HP. Balance the fodder's survivability based around these facts.
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What's rather scary, is... that while Darthion had an EDK, I managed to buff it up to 70-ish AC, 50+ AB with 5 attacks per round and about 750-800 HP.
And to those who still complain that wizards lack offensive abilities need to study what the class actually has to offer.
If you don't know which they are, I'll give you some help;
Horrid Wilting (has no save): 25d8
That's 2700 damage per rest, with Area of Effect spells, that has -no- save. And that's not even counting the empowered and maximized ice storms, which would up that number by a lot.
What I'm trying to say, is... stop the (censored) whining and bitching, and try to learn the (censored) game instead, and the class you're playing.
Horrid wilting has save vs fort for half damage. If you're hitting something with horrid wilting, you're better off wailing it, if its not immune to death spells.
It does a wondrous 50-100 damage most of the time to giants, if you're int stacked and Epic necro. You should be casting wails instead. Most of the frost giants have 350ish hitpoints.
Lets put those numbers in perspective. 2700 damage at say 400 hp worth of damage per spawn. You kill 6-7 spawns every 16 minutes.
15d6 = 90 damage for a max ice-storm bearing in mind no bludgeoning DR.
You'd need to hit the entire spawn with 5 of those to do sufficient damage to kill most epic level spawns. But ice storm won't do that. It's range is too small.
Maximized ice-storm also takes up a Level 7 slot. Level 6 slot for Empowered.
Empowered does like 60-70 average.
How many things are resistant/immune to cold damage in epic content?
/edit: How many things beat dc 41 fort saves in Epic content as well?
I also would like to know how you got your EDK to 70 armor. He has 41 base. Unless you feed him Bark-skin pots, level 30 bard-song, haste, Magic vestment, and divine shield, I don't know how thats happening.
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Last edited by Dwagin on Wed, Mar 25 2009, 20:06 PM, edited 1 time in total.
I have a suggestion, can we just all be clones? please if we are all the same, 100% the same, no diffrences what so ever, no one would need to cry nerf this or that.
*note:above is sarcasm*
I do wonder though, can we get a nerf class X in the things to change so we can figure out how to make class X sucky, i mean balanced. nerfing this and that eventually will get out of hand, or we can as my sarcastic reply above said, be clones.
You're suggesting that we nerf the wizards even further?
Since you can't cast spells while shapechanged, it's usually not an issue in PvP, with the exception of wizards/sorcerers using their dragon familiar to spot the location of the hider, and cast spells in that direction.
Unfortuneatly, this can be worked around rather easily.
You still see the hider if you shift in and out real quickly (biofail) and Mordenkeins Sword, when summoned from GS with a hider hostile, bum rushes then and breaks their stealth as well.
Umber Hulks have true seeing to simulate tremor sense and blindsight, so it makes sense. Dragons should not have hide-o-vision though.
I don't know why Helmed Horrors have it, but I suppose since they are animated objects, they have blindsight as well.
I do wonder though, can we get a nerf class X in the things to change so we can figure out how to make class X sucky, i mean balanced. nerfing this and that eventually will get out of hand, or we can as my sarcastic reply above said, be clones.
Nobody stops you from making a thread like that.
But my suggestion would then be to type all your arguments out nicely, balance em in your mind a few times without thinking of your favorite classes and characters and then post the whole list and ask other people to do like you did.
And not just go "nerf dev crit/hips/..." but propose a solution which works (or which you are quite sure works) and also take the full view into account.
If you majorly nerf something (unlike this here, which will drop the AB/damage just a few points) like removing dev crit or adding a timer to hips, concider things to give the classes more appeal and also not make them less useful then a harper scout.
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Mages find a Bard and your problem is sorted.
For Constructive purposes.
Druid/Ranger Animal Companions: Hardly need a change. From a pure class perspective the Animal Companion does your damage with your Druid spells and Ranger Combat ability as back up. AE is the only thing that unbalances this in my belief. Yes you can buff the pig, bear and pup to stupidly high AB but their HP remains comparitively low and you can't stack them up five times like a level 9 summon.
I believe they are unlike the wizards familiar on a .75 BaB per level type deal which means they max out at three attacks per round which in my belief is counter-acted by the slightly higher -albiet- buffed to hell stats.
Druid summons: The only broken one here is the elemental swarm. As a druid you can solo from Werewolves to Brog Wilderness because
1. The swarm lasts 24 hours so is unaffected by CL based duration.
2. Its four summons for the price of one spell which can be aquired through using a specific amulet which as a summon/buffer/companion type you can usually afford easily by then.
3. Level 9 is when a druid starts to hit its own buffing straps.
4. The Eles AC is easily buffed over the 40 mark.
5. Uncrittable, unsneakable
The other druidic summons generally suck due to creature weapons and only having three attacks per round
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I hunted with Opustus' Ranger the other day (25 Ranger levels), and he dished out damage and criticals while dual-wielding that were comparable to my 11 Ftr / 16 WM wielding a two-hander. And on top of that you have Ranger pets that are damage cannons themselves. That's two for one in my opinion, and too much goodie. Should get nerfed towards less damage/AB, but durable enough.
Druids are in the tougher spot of being either Dragonshapers or rather mediocre builds. The latter would be wimp without a decent animal companion while the former fall into the Ranger category again.
The problem with nerfing the Animal Companions would be that any druid who -doesn't- take Dragonshape will be in trouble. Druids don't get GS and Invisibility, like the mages do, unless they feel like dishing out the gold for stacks and stacks of Invisibility potions. Saying that they're the same as mages, in that regard, is just silly.
For druids who don't shift so much for battle (and there's a lot of reasons this could be the case), the summons really are all they have. Especially in the lower levels.
As far as the mage summons go, I can see the problem, of course. There's nothing wrong with forcing mages out of hiding. (And I say this with a Sorcerer as a Main, who only has a Summon 9 to work with as far as summons go.)
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That's my opinion as well. I also think that looking at stats gives you bad breath and saggy boobs, so I rather place the burden on a foreigner anyway.
I have a suggestion, can we just all be clones? please if we are all the same, 100% the same
I keep telling them that, but they don't listen. If everyone thought like I do, roleplayed like I do, and reacted like I do, Amia would be a happy and carefree place.
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xordae wrote:
I hunted with Opustus' Ranger the other day (25 Ranger levels), and he dished out damage and criticals while dual-wielding that were comparable to my 11 Ftr / 16 WM wielding a two-hander. And on top of that you have Ranger pets that are damage cannons themselves. That's two for one in my opinion, and too much goodie. Should get nerfed towards less damage/AB, but durable enough.
Druids are in the tougher spot of being either Dragonshapers or rather mediocre builds. The latter would be wimp without a decent animal companion while the former fall into the Ranger category again.
Question. Was this against his fav. enemies? If it was thats not a very fair comparison. Str Rangers mixed with tumble dumps, and epic weapon spec hand out of the most face DPS possible against their fav. enemies. 25/4/1 is great PvM if you choose PvM favoured enemies which inevitably leads you to fail PvP.
I'm against nerfing it given that a Druid relies totally on disabling and summons by the very nature of the class and has no wonderous insta-gib spells, GMW, FW, Imp Invisi, Haste, Mass Haste.
By the way Xordae i was talking from a Solo PvM perspective in my post. I have a similiar/same build to Opustus. From my own experiences soloing even with the pig-bigdawg-bear is nigh impossible given its highly subject to dismissal.
Dragonshapers incur a penalty. . .a huge one. . .they get stuck. . .my cheap cheap monk/shifter/druid did and got liberally splashed even with his 70 AC.
Dragonshape is totally underwhelming and doesn't even begin to approach STR - Ranger in damage potential.
Oh i also don't use my Ranger at all so i am not biased either way its just i don't believe that it needs a nerf.
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I hunted with Opustus' Ranger the other day (25 Ranger levels), and he dished out damage and criticals while dual-wielding that were comparable to my 11 Ftr / 16 WM wielding a two-hander. And on top of that you have Ranger pets that are damage cannons themselves. That's two for one in my opinion, and too much goodie. Should get nerfed towards less damage/AB, but durable enough.
Druids are in the tougher spot of being either Dragonshapers or rather mediocre builds. The latter would be wimp without a decent animal companion while the former fall into the Ranger category again.
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I'd only be ok with dominate spell nerfed weaker (or monsters higher) IF it is fixed to be useful in Pvp, by making (mindblank.clarity) potions non-effective on a user while they are dominated by the spell.
I also think an epic focused enchanter should be able to dominate some of the stronger monsters, but not so much for non-enchant focused mages. (meaning if you invested the feats for it, then it's actually useful) So let the epic focus enchanter dominate the balor, but only the epic focused enchanter, not just any run-of-the-mill mage.
Same logic goes for EDK, alot of feats were invested (when extended), it 'should' be strong, and in my opinion could use an upgrade... if not a completely diffrent summon power level for those with epic focus conjuration. (aka stronger dragon for those who took the focus in conjuration) ..because let's face it one look at black tentacles makes you want to look at another spell focus. The dragon is the only real motivation.
UMD...this needs help, make the UMD skill required on magic items higher plz. (especially potions/scrolls). I saw a dm character making potions with premonition on them and just about fell over from the un-balanced shock.
As for lowering usefulness of some summons, ok... but increase usefulness of the useless ones. Case in point the undead summons (non-palemaster,deathdomain), it's ghost after useless ghost, and in my opinion shegorath's persistent blade is simply the only low level spell summon worth taking at the moment.
If summons are weakened across the board, then damage spells need to be strengthened across the board.
Some say mages are too strong, so oh weaken them and leave it, I think these people need to take another look at the melee builds hitting 100-200dmg a hit with dev crit added for laughs. No mage can do that kind of damage consistently, dev crit is like an upgraded FoD spell, and it's free every single hit...with no limit on uses. Oh and guess what? ..it works on most epic bosses when they roll 1's...
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Mr Mago wrote:
30 x 15d6 + 10 x 25d8 = 450d6 + 250d8 = 1575 + 1125 = 2700 damage on average.
That's 2700 damage per rest, with Area of Effect spells, that has -no- save. And that's not even counting the empowered and maximized ice storms, which would up that number by a lot.
2700 damage does sound a lot ...
It is across fort rounds, so this means 67.5 damage per round - if we assume the empowered-maximised bunch would add another 50% (since there are less of them and I can't b bothered doing the full working out) and that it would hit four enemies each time (this would be averaging out opening shots that hit more enemies and 'cleaning up' which hits less), that's 405 per round in the casting rounds, which is really impressive.
Of course, after those 40 rounds you can't cast those spells again, and have to wait until rest. This means your total damage is 16 200 damage per rest. Now a rest cycle is 150 rounds (number of seconds divided by six), meaning that your mage cannon pumps out an average of 108 per round, which isn't exactly something to be balked out.
However, I know if I use those slots to buff a meleer instead I can get them to do a lot more damage.
Edit: Or a buffed EDK can beat that
Azrael wrote:
Same logic goes for EDK, alot of feats were invested (when extended), it 'should' be strong, and in my opinion could use an upgrade... if not a completely diffrent summon power level for those with epic focus conjuration. (aka stronger dragon for those who took the focus in conjuration) ..because let's face it one look at black tentacles makes you want to look at another spell focus. The dragon is the only real motivation.
Why should it be stronger for someone who focuses is in conjuration? It already lasts ten times as long.
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A. the damage calculation of 108 per round which would actually start to get into a fighter's league damage-wise is based on the assumption that a mage has taken tons of metamagic feats and has at least 30 icestorm spells to cast per rest or 10-15 horrid wiltings.
...that is hardly the case on the average mage, they do have other spells ...like buff's to cast(and other feats to take). If they went pure dmg dealing spells it's the equivalent to a fighter who can deal 108dmg a round but die in two seconds when hit. Mages have to balance offense and defensive spells, fighters get good defence 'and' damage. The pure spellcaster has to balance these or simply take the easier path of being the party buff-bot.
B. If the time limit on the dragon is so ridiculously, and needlessly long, then perhaps cut some duration for increased stats?
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Azrael wrote:
Mages have to balance offense and defensive spells, fighters get good defence 'and' damage.
Sorry mate, I had to laugh at this. With meleers it's either damage OR defence. You go strength, your AC is lower but your damage is higher. You go dexterity your AC is higher but your damage is lower. Getting both high damage and high AC without being a cleric or bard isn't as easy as you make it out to be.
EDK's fine, compared to the bioware version it's a rich diamond mine spurting off large amounts of crude oil. It doesn't need to be any more powerful.
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Azrael wrote:
A. the damage calculation of 108 per round which would actually start to get into a fighter's league damage-wise is based on the assumption that a mage has taken tons of metamagic feats and has at least 30 icestorm spells to cast per rest or 10-15 horrid wiltings.
...that is hardly the case on the average mage, they do have other spells ...like buff's to cast(and other feats to take). If they went pure dmg dealing spells it's the equivalent to a fighter who can deal 108dmg a round but die in two seconds when hit. Mages have to balance offense and defensive spells, fighters get good defence 'and' damage. The pure spellcaster has to balance these or simply take the easier path of being the party buff-bot.
B. If the time limit on the dragon is so ridiculously, and needlessly long, then perhaps cut some duration for increased stats?
A. I know it is ... I am against mage's spells being used like that, which is why I said you'd be better off buffing a fighter
B. I never said it was ridiculously long - it is a trade off: 3 feats for ten times the duration.
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The reason I posted the offensive spell stuff was because, as I stated in the post, that wizards -do- have rather capable offensive qualities... which quite a few had denied in previous replies.
That doesn't say there aren't potentially other, more effective means of using wizards, however.
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Yurell wrote:
A. I know it is ... I am against mage's spells being used like that, which is why I said you'd be better off buffing a fighter
B. I never said it was ridiculously long - it is a trade off: 3 feats for ten times the duration.
Well then I said it's ridiculously long ^^
Why ten times longer instead of a shorter time period but stronger?
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Yes some mages build themselves as 'AC mages' ..not all of them do. If you wish to play an ac built mage with metamagic feats out the wazoo then oook, but that's not the measuring stick on a mage's power, that's one specific build, using one or two specific spells constantly.
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Mages are also as effective without AC as they are with high AC.
You see... there's this combination of spells. Premonition and Mestil's Acid Scheath. Acid scheath as you know has a BoT page. Don't know about you... but fire giants taking 99 cold damage every time they hit your character which is 3-4 times a round... that's alot more damage then a fighter can dish out.
Just thinking of that overpoweredness makes me wonder why it was Mestils that got the BoT page and not Elemental Shield.
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Mr Mago wrote:
Azrael wrote:
an ac built mage with metamagic feats out the wazoo then oook, [...] using one or two specific spells constantly.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't "out the wazoo" imply that it doesn't have the nessecary metamagic feats?
Or is this just a case where my comprehension of the used english language fails me?
Means having alot or tons of them. (I'll try to refrain from more local language terms used online)
Glad this was just a comprehension error.
Galenson wrote:
Mages are also as effective without AC as they are with high AC.
You see... there's this combination of spells. Premonition and Mestil's Acid Scheath. Acid scheath as you know has a BoT page. Don't know about you... but fire giants taking 99 cold damage every time they hit your character which is 3-4 times a round... that's alot more damage then a fighter can dish out.
Just thinking of that overpoweredness makes me wonder why it was Mestils that got the BoT page and not Elemental Shield.
This is actually a rly good point, I see the damage numbers potentially rising to balanced levels here.
Edit: but that's not by using one-shot damage spells, it's a spell shield. (which might need balancing compared with with elemental shield)
Wait a second. So you're saying that wizards/sorcerers should be on par with dev-critting fighters/WMs, using only their offensive spells?
What about dex-based characters? Or monks?
I did some more thinking, as well. Say, you're hunting in the Spires. A maximized Ice Storm with a level 30 caster does 15d6 damage. That's 90 damage. The giants have 50% cold vuln. (correct me if I'm wrong). That should add up to a total of 135 damage.
The mobsters in the spires usually spawn in groups of six. While hasted, you're able to cast 2 ice storms in one round. That's 135 x 6 x 2 = 1620 total damage in one round.
Show me a meleer who's actually managed to top that.
While dashing out that damage, you can have an EDK summon with you, + your familiar. I really can't see how, or where, wizards/sorcerers are weak in PvM. In any aspect.
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Mr Mago wrote:
Wait a second. So you're saying that wizards/sorcerers should be on par with dev-critting fighters/WMs, using only their offensive spells?
No but it puts into perspective the balance needed by knowing the extremes.
Mr Mago wrote:
What about dex-based characters? Or monks?
They are also apart of the balance equation. When people say oh mages are too strong I say oh well take a second look at the dev-critting fighters/WM with all the potion buffs they need, and with a touch of UMD, the majority of buff spell scrolls.
Mr Mago wrote:
I did some more thinking, as well. Say, you're hunting in the Spires. A maximized Ice Storm with a level 30 caster does 15d6 damage. That's 90 damage. The giants have 50% cold vuln. (correct me if I'm wrong). That should add up to a total of 135 damage.
The mobsters in the spires usually spawn in groups of six. While hasted, you're able to cast 2 ice storms in one round. That's 135 x 6 x 2 = 1620 total damage in one round.
Show me a meleer who's actually managed to top that.
Again that's a specific situation- with a 50% increase due to monster weakness, and I don't see too many level 30 mages in the spires. I think here you really want the giants to have a less vulnerability, instead of 50%.
Mr Mago wrote:
While dashing out that damage, you can have an EDK summon with you, + your familiar. I really can't see how, or where, wizards/sorcerers are weak in PvM. In any aspect.
This depends on the severity of the change to summons, ofcourse, the firegiants are an exception to the evocation PvM trend because of their huge damage vunerability to ice. One of the most damage-dealing spells mixed with a 50% immunity on the target does tend to inflate the numbers.
Why would you Nuke down fire giants? o.O Its more like, Wail/Killer/FoD/Phantasmal, EDK/Dom eats the 1 or 2 that's left, next spawn plz, for Mentaki.
The only reason I have EDk on him is for the fear aura, and i've honestly been considering speccing out of the feats for it as it isn't needed as he either runs with a group if he does anything at all combat wise anymore.
Mago:
Comparable pwnage for a fighter vs mage caster, over the course of 16 minutes (Keep in mind thats the limit of mage damage ouput. Spells per 16 minutes.)
Sorry mate, I had to laugh at this. With meleers it's either damage OR defence. You go strength, your AC is lower but your damage is higher. You go dexterity your AC is higher but your damage is lower. Getting both high damage and high AC without being a cleric or bard isn't as easy as you make it out to be"
Jack hit that right on the nose. You can do Charisma based melee with a tumble dump like rogue, or bard and get good solo AC AND damage, and uMD.. Your AB prolly wont be the best for PVP tho, unless you do one of the vicious RDD/devcrit/cleric builds.
Even with tumble AC, a WM's damage without Divine shield is gimpy as hell without concealment/haste. Putting a WM + Wiz or Bard together is ideal party time though.
You're comparing two very distinct animals though trying to put ALL MELEE builds in one pocket and Arcanists in another corner.
Mages do have it good, but there are things that exist that are better in one situation than a pure wizard, few things can be as good as they are in most any situation they are prepared for ahead of time.
For that, see sorcerers, to a degree.
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.....And nerf Dev Crit in that case, since ALOT of melee characters use that to solo the Abyss too.
Go roll me up a level 30 WM with Dev that soloes the abyss and I'll eat my hat. It''s not doable. Soloing the Abyss and actand is the purview of spellcasters. A meleer with no friend is stuck 2-3 rungs down the ladder.
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*shrugs* It's kind of unfair for those who actually DO depend upon their summons.
I know I had a tough time with the giants of Spires with my summons now that the are beefed up, and now with my sole damage doer dumbed down....I mean a PM only has so many fireballs and lightnings to maybe kill one giant or two but that's it.
Some players make it seem like mages are all godly and I'm sorry but I just don't see it really.
I could think of many RDD builds that could do it...I could even mention names but I won't.
What I can say is that my character is a lvl 16 wiz/ 12 Epic PM. As far as offensive spells goes he has few and they don't do that much damage. He also lacks a fair amount of buffs. His wails could NEVER drop even an average built fighter. Not a single Epic spell.
If it wasn't for the greater mummy I'd be a smear in every combat situation I was in. Not to mention that the above build CANNOT SOLO the Abyss or Actaung where maybe I guess a full on mage could...I don't know.
Palemasters should be taken into consideration when nerfing these summons, at least keeping the PM summons as they were.
Last edited by Geld Yaztran on Thu, Mar 26 2009, 3:47 AM, edited 1 time in total.
In the politest of terms, the most I can really say is "learn to play". There is a certain skill threshold you're expected to learn as you level up, and if you can't be arsed to learn it, then you can't really complain when you do badly.
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.....And nerf Dev Crit in that case, since ALOT of melee characters use that to solo the Abyss too.
Go roll me up a level 30 WM with Dev that soloes the abyss and I'll eat my hat. It''s not doable. Soloing the Abyss and actand is the purview of spellcasters. A meleer with no friend is stuck 2-3 rungs down the ladder.
can we stock the WM with 20mil worth of healing potions?
if so pick out a yummy hat.
_________________ ================-<Cory ShadowFlame>-================ Risenlord-Shifter(OMG a Non-Dragon Shifter that can hold his own in PvE)
In the politest of terms, the most I can really say is "learn to play". There is a certain skill threshold you're expected to learn as you level up, and if you can't be arsed to learn it, then you can't really complain when you do badly.
Tormak and politeness are oxymorons, and by the way, people need to know what happens when making a build, not everyone knows the future to adjust their characters accordingly. Some people build according to roleplay, not soloing the abyss.
Why does anyone even care if anyone can solo the Abyss? We already know one build can do it, so what's really wrong with another?
If it wasn't for the greater mummy I'd be a smear in every combat situation I was in. Not to mention that the above build CANNOT SOLO the Abyss or Actaung where maybe I guess a full on mage could...I don't know.
You brought it up, yo.
My point was that a mage is the strongest thing on the server, period. Whetehr or not you disagree is academic, your opinion would be classified as "Right" or "wrong" in this instance, and not so much an opinion.
BTW, oxymoron in a phrase means along the lines of "redundant". You are equating my name to being polite. I appreciate your vote of confdence in me trying to reinvent myself asa nnicer guy, but I also understand that's not what you meant.
_________________ Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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