AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic - The Big Fat Summon and Dominate/Control Nerf

This one's been brewing for a while, and I've finally got off my lazy arse and started it.

The short version is that I'm snipped a hefty chunk of STR from most of the higher end summons, and trimmed off the likes of Improved and Overwhelming Crit from them. Their defensive abilities are almost all untouched, but their AB and damage per hit have taken a dive of between two and five, depending on how epic they are.

For Dominate Monster and Control Undead, I went for the least radical solution, and made the usual suspects less buffable. Their Will saves are untouched, the duration of the spells aren't changing and there isn't a gold cost being applied. But, there's a few spells that are now pointless to cast upon them, and I doubt it'll take you long to work out which ones they are.

That means there's still plenty of critters that can be buffed up more than the likes of the Coven Leaders, Khazorks, Frost Chieftans, Arctic Manticores and Balors, but there's a pretty simple reason those ones rarely get nabbed.

What I haven't decided is what to do about the Ranger/Druid pets. I've not played a Druid so I don't feel comfortable trashing their Summon I-IX and the Elemental Swarms, and I personally can't nerf the Animal Companions anyway - that's a Disco task. The fuzzybutts are monsters, but the price you need to obtain them is to be a near-pure Ranger or Druid, which is, compared to the price a mage or Cleric pays to get their summons, pretty hefty.

The Summons from I-VII and the lowbie Planar spells are also untouched as yet. In many cases they're too AB-ish and damagey as well, but I don't have any issues with lowbie time being easy - it's sound business for attacting new players, like selling schoolchildren drugs for half the price until they get hooked. Apart from that, leveling tankly types is likewise easy at the Summon I-VII stretch.

We don't plan to implement this until the weekend, so you've time to adjust, comment, and such. I'm off to bed now, so don't expect swift replies tonight.

Could get a list of which critters are affected?

These are more for Disco, but I will write them here anyways

Change the summon monster 8, the Pixie Knight, too.
Its so not useful for its level. A few spells, quite low hp, low BAB, low damage, medium AC.
Summon monster 7 has higher bab, higher HP, higher damage and higher AC.
Also, summon mordenkains sword, a level 7 spell if I remember correctly, summons a helmet horror, which you already get with a summon monster 6 or so.

Except of that, good enough for me. No critique on my side.

This is utter nonsense. Summons are a mage's weapon. If they're being nerfed, why not nerf the rest of the weapons on the server?
It's ridiculous. I have nothing good to say about this move, so I end my rant. *sadly shakes head*

Dervish wrote:

Summons are a mage's weapon.

Ahaha no. Evocation or party beefing.

I find this change absolutely atrocious. That is all.

Jan wrote:

Dervish wrote:

Summons are a mage's weapon.

Ahaha no. Evocation or party beefing.

Evocation is without any question the most inefficent way for a Mage to use his spell slots.

I still am amazed people think Mages are awesome blasters. I only have three damage spells, because I never need them. It's for RP only.

Mages are Black and White in terms or damage output. Either we buff our party members or a Summoned/Dominated critter, or we do insignificant PvM damage. The End.

You can't fix this without drastically altering the magic system. It's fundamental to NWN and DnD.

I, personally, probably won't notice the change because I can't be bothered to solo often (bores me to death) but if the summons are weakened enough to make it no longer possible, you are going to see a serious fallout of mage players.

Drannok wrote:

I, personally, probably won't notice the change because I can't be bothered to solo often (bores me to death) but if the summons are weakened enough to make it no longer possible, you are going to see a serious fallout of mage players.

No class is able to solo the really epic areas, why should mages be? You can chill in GS with a dominated critter offline.
Or find a party and buff them. Mix buffs with a couple fireballs. Epic spells. Don't even consider "maximum damage per second efficiency", you're on the wrong server for that.

well at least they are not below shifters then you know your screwed

If you really think people other than Mages can't solo epic areas, you're mistaken.

Mages are just the lazy way.

Mages get flak because of the low risk method they use. But as I said before it's black and white. If you remove summons and domination Mages become utterly impotent and reliant on other powerful party members. A party does not need Mage buffs.

It doesn't matter it;s an RP server, so throw that argument away. This is a large change that drastically effects some peoples favorite characters. It will make the class less fun to play for many of the current Mages. And when has a Mage's ability to contribute more than buffs ever really bothered you?

This is all about trying to bring balance into a system that will never be balanced, ever. 3.0 and 3.5 were ditched entirely when this was recognized.

Note, if we do this, we'll probably be able to beef up other spells in good conscience.

The main issue with summons is that you're getting a free party member and a low risk means of solo'ing. Yes, other classes have the capability of solo'ing, but none has the absolute-low-risk means of doing so that the mage does.

As an avid player of my own mage, Airais Alanein, I support this change.

Beefing up evocation can possibly help, but the fatal flaw is the limited spells per day issue.

You have to make the use of evocation safe for the Mage and the party (monsters bum rush and maul non invisible Mages who aren't built for high AC) while still not draining them of all their spells per day in two fights.

This is why Summons are the things Mages use. Evocation spells would almost have to be instant win levels of damage to be worth the slot, because you have to recloak or recast premonition every fight when not invisible. And, keep in mind, certian evocations (Ice Storm and LGMS) allow realtivly low level Mages to effortlessly destroy a boss so long as said boss if busy with a tank.

Even with high Int/Charisma, you need either a full party to defend you or you run out of power quickly using evocations. And parties don't like the Mage resting every fifteen minutes and rebuffing everyone.

Mages can be damned useful in a party, if you're playing the cards right. Outright damage spells are typically a bad idea, but status-maging is a great way to play it. You're damned useful, and if you're doing it right a single mage can help a -level 18 party- finish the entire Abyss, just because the people on the front lines have an extremely easy job.

I doubt we'll give too much beef to outright-damage spells, if only because, well... While we don't balance for PvP actively most of the time, we do have to keep it in mind.

That said, no means given will be 'safe'. The Mage will have to deal with risk the same way anyone else does. Non-AC/Con Built Mages will have trouble, sure, but that's no different to other builds with flaws; you have to live with it.

My Mage is basically a pure party support Mage, and I know how useful he can be. He is rather self-handicapped for a Mage, and again, I loathe solo grinding.

I'm just voicing every complaint I can think of to get them out of the way >_>

... I guess I sort of am defensive since, well, Drannok has only one PvM ability on his own. A Big Fat Summon.

And as one of those mages who buffs up and fights in the frontline alongside my summon all I have to way is... pwnd.

If I wanted to do that I'd be a Cleric, and do it better than a Mage could ever hope to.

Good thing I'm not you, then. Because it's SOOOOOOOOOOOO much cooler to stay behind in GS and do NOTHING for hours.

As long as you don't go overboard with the changes, it's okay. Druids, meh. They can range from pretty sucky to awesome Dragonshapers. So I'm not sure how fair it would be to nerf those companions. What I would definitely weaken to some degree is EDK, though.

EDK already dies in 2-3 rounds in PvP, why would you nerf it?

You perhaps didn't read where I said I don't like grinding. I spend most of my time RPing, actually, and usually only go out with a party, buff them all up, and then, yes, follow them around with either a summon, or use mass control spells in a full party.

It's a different style of play. I prefer control and strategic characters. If I may ask, did you make a Melee Mage to be different? Because a Cleric get's Epic summons that are just as good, and fights infinitely better than a Mage, AND has better party buffs.

Talon wrote:

EDK already dies in 2-3 rounds in PvP, why would you nerf it?

Summons suck in PvP. If this was done for PvP, I laugh in the faces of the Devs (But I don't think this has anything to do with PvP) because Mage PvP is Time Stop, no save evocations, or Save or Lose instantly combined with ease of escape and GS.

corypx wrote:

well at least they are not below shifters then you know your screwed

I have actually seen quite a few shifters around... it makes me sad because I like to be special... I had no idea there were so many until I was completely attached to mine...

anyways, mages are the epic of the uber (and vice versa), and nerfing them is pretty much necessary for balance.

blackvswhite wrote:

anyways, mages are the epic of the uber (and vice versa), and nerfing them is pretty much necessary for balance.

Mages are made of glass. Basically if you're close enough to hit them, they die. If we're nerfing mages we should completely remove Dev Crit.

you have invis spells... you are also the ones with the spells to see invis... and concealment... and chunky DR spells...

I'm happy atleast one undead on that list was left untouched please keep it that way because if someone snags him, they deserve the full benefit, but all in all. I think it totally sucked specially with what I have heard has been done to the epic monsters, an I know a fair few people have complained to me about "us non powerbuilds" can't get the gold anymore loot. just because some retards decide to farm all day. I think we are now running in danger of alienating alot of the server.

With Gates short duration, it's not liek you can run it all day and night. and I thought it's pretty obvious were druid pets need to be sniffed off.. we have spoken about them being mini weaponmasters.. so maybe.. there ab? when i hear about pets getting higher Ab than a level 30 well built 16 level weaponmaster, it could be pretty obvious.

But all in all..I didn't see a problem in the first place, and think rather strongly it should of went untouched.

Invisibilty is lost the moment we use any spell that effects a hostile target. We need to wait a round before recasting it, unless we swap a hostile spell with GS.

Removing GS and invsisibilty is instant death to all Mages except high level Con/AC ones. Yet it''s mobility and GS that fundamentally makes Mages so effective in PvP.

So the only way to make Mages not overpowered in PvP, effectivly, makes them free kills in a real time game.

EDIT: I'm pretty sure I could cook up a bonus spell based sheath using Sorcerer/PM/some-other-class with loads and loads of Con that would be nigh unkillable without time stop, as well. Worthless in a party, though.

Last edited by Dev Disco on Tue, Mar 24 2009, 23:26 PM, edited 1 time in total.

Is there any mage who used his summons as a PvP weapon? I guess the answer is 'no'. Which also limits the reasons why this change will be implemented.

About time, in my opinion. Summons that are as strong as a party member combined with a class like cleric or mage was ridiculous, is ridiculous, and will be ridiculous.

OK, if a Harper Scout got a pet of that power... now THAT I'd understand.

There are ALOT of items in the game that let everyone of every class counter invis. If someone beats you with invis, your a retard.

DR isnt as great as it sounds, its not something to count on, its more of a "Oh shit, that one didnt die and his hitting me in the face" Again not something you can run long while taking damage.

I dont see why these changes are made at all, i dont know the full extent of the changes though, so maybe im thinking worse then it is. But if you want to talk about Soloing.. a Wizard with summens isnt the best, and Uce knows that. There are LOTS of people that solo bosses all day long, solo spires, all that stuff, and i cant think of any Wizards that do it off the top of my head.

I mean, if a DM wants to break out a stop watch, ill run spires with my Wizard, and again with my Bard. If my wizard can do it faster, ill delete both my chars and start over something new, no questions asked. A Dev critting anything can run thouse places far better and far faster then a Wizard can, and with only potions to buff them along the way.

I dought the team will even read these posts.. not sure why they bothered to make this post in the first place.. kinda feels like a taunt like "Haha i fucked your sister!" letting all the other kids lol along with it.

Last edited by Dev Disco on Tue, Mar 24 2009, 23:30 PM, edited 1 time in total.

Xenos wrote:

I dought the team will even read these posts.. not sure why they bothered to make this post in the first place.. kinda feels like a taunt like "Haha i (censored) your sister!" letting all the other kids lol along with it.

Why the fuck do you think he posted this? Because he was bored? Sorry, but I think this is a comment that's so completely unfair that I can only say "shame on you" for making it.

The Wizard is slower, but has zero risk, and zero cost.

That's what is broken.

If your wizard is not running through faster with a longer lasting haste, a familiar and summon buffed, combined with wail's.. then well somethings not right.

In other words, wizard has 2 things that fight 8 attacks a round, and a spell that can kill 80% of the spawns in the spires.
Bard has 4 attacks a round, a low damage output than those 2 summons combined and does not have a spell that can kill 80% of the spawn.
Not only that but DR and cold sheath on Mage means even if your visable with mage you will be attacked, but cause more damage to the spawn than the bard with wounding whispers. You will take less damage and thus is more cost effective.

Wait.

Suddenly I get it. *coughs*

Nevermind, I don't see a major problem here unless the nerfs are extremely drastic.

Talon wrote:

blackvswhite wrote:

anyways, mages are the epic of the uber (and vice versa), and nerfing them is pretty much necessary for balance.

Mages are made of glass. Basically if you're close enough to hit them, they die. If we're nerfing mages we should completely remove Dev Crit.

Perhaps you should learn to build a mage before you put any more of your pearls of wisdom onto the table.

Drannok wrote:

The Wizard is slower, but has zero risk, and zero cost.

That's what is broken.

The wizard is faster if being played correctly,

Craig deathwalker wrote:

If your wizard is not running through faster with a longer lasting haste, a familiar and summon buffed, combined with wail's.. then well somethings not right.

In other words, wizard has 2 things that fight 8 attacks a round, and a spell that can kill 80% of the spawns in the spires.
Bard has 4 attacks a round, a low damage output than those 2 summons combined and does not have a spell that can kill 80% of the spawn.
Not only that but DR and cold sheath on Mage means even if your visable with mage you will be attacked, but cause more damage to the spawn than the bard with wounding whispers. You will take less damage and thus is more cost effective.

Or he can take it slower, and pay absolutely nothing at all.

Drannok wrote:

Craig deathwalker wrote:

If your wizard is not running through faster with a longer lasting haste, a familiar and summon buffed, combined with wail's.. then well somethings not right.

In other words, wizard has 2 things that fight 8 attacks a round, and a spell that can kill 80% of the spawns in the spires.
Bard has 4 attacks a round, a low damage output than those 2 summons combined and does not have a spell that can kill 80% of the spawn.
Not only that but DR and cold sheath on Mage means even if your visable with mage you will be attacked, but cause more damage to the spawn than the bard with wounding whispers. You will take less damage and thus is more cost effective.

Or he can take it slower, and pay absolutely nothing at all.

Or he can dominate something buff it up to high hells, bring it along and go even faster and pay nothing at all. Mages can basically form a private army and still maintain all there damage spells to wreak havok. Thats what is broken.

Xenos wrote:

There are LOTS of people that solo bosses all day long, solo spires, all that stuff, and i cant think of any Wizards that do it off the top of my head.

Lol. I can give you a list.

You do realize that the mass farming of epic bosses pretty much began with the improved version of EDK being implemented? That's when most mages began forming a line, waiting for their turn to kill Icingdeath.

Last edited by Drannok on Tue, Mar 24 2009, 23:40 PM, edited 1 time in total.

Damage spells with a dominated monster is a really fun and quick way to die horribly.

EDIT: Extending EDK with ESFC and then buffing Gate at higher CL was a mistake IMO.

I think leaving Gate less powerful, and making EDK sort of "Super Gate" would be a better epic summon solution.

Domination simply shouldn't work on things like Balor Warriors. Yeah, it's alot of fun, but -really-?

Mr Mago wrote:

Xenos wrote:

There are LOTS of people that solo bosses all day long, solo spires, all that stuff, and i cant think of any Wizards that do it off the top of my head.

Lol. I can give you a list.

You do realize that the mass farming of epic bosses pretty much began with the improved version of EDK being implemented? That's when most mages began forming a line, waiting for their turn to kill Icingdeath.

mhmm few months later epic auctions on the forums became a constant thing. Before then it was "mine mine mine! i dont need it but its mine! anyway hahaha epic loot!"

Seriously, I laugh at those who bitch at this nerf. The nerf itself is likely not that overwhelming, and it clearly shows that most of the casters are so desperately spoiled with the Amia beefed up summons that they can't even relate to what the original NWN summons used to be.

The sorcerer/wizard is the most powerful class in the entire game, and you don't even have to powerbuild to exploit its epicness.

If anything, this change was long overdue, and I thank Uce for taking the time to finally implement it.

Mr Mago wrote:

Seriously, I laugh at those who bitch at this nerf. The nerf itself is likely not that overwhelming, and it clearly shows that most of the casters are so desperately spoiled with the Amia beefed up summons that they can't even relate to what the original NWN summons used to be.

The sorcerer/wizard is the most powerful class in the entire game, and you don't even have to powerbuild to exploit its epicness.

If anything, this change was long overdue, and I thank Uce for taking the time to finally implement it.

WTF? I'm agreeing with Mago?

WonWon wrote:

Mr Mago wrote:

Seriously, I laugh at those who bitch at this nerf. The nerf itself is likely not that overwhelming, and it clearly shows that most of the casters are so desperately spoiled with the Amia beefed up summons that they can't even relate to what the original NWN summons used to be.

The sorcerer/wizard is the most powerful class in the entire game, and you don't even have to powerbuild to exploit its epicness.

If anything, this change was long overdue, and I thank Uce for taking the time to finally implement it.

WTF? I'm agreeing with Mago?

Which means your also agreeing with me wonwon! You feeling ok? I mean last time we agreed was on the love topic

Come on.

There's no need to bring "love" into all of this...

I agree with it now as well, on account I seriously couldn't think of a better solution, and it is totally out of whack right now.

WonWon wrote:

Mages can be damned useful in a party, if you're playing the cards right. Outright damage spells are typically a bad idea, but status-maging is a great way to play it. You're damned useful, and if you're doing it right a single mage can help a -level 18 party- finish the entire Abyss, just because the people on the front lines have an extremely easy job.

I doubt we'll give too much beef to outright-damage spells, if only because, well... While we don't balance for PvP actively most of the time, we do have to keep it in mind.

That said, no means given will be 'safe'. The Mage will have to deal with risk the same way anyone else does. Non-AC/Con Built Mages will have trouble, sure, but that's no different to other builds with flaws; you have to live with it.

Mages don't need summons to be powerful. The main advantage to a mage is buffing in party (not as awesoe as cleric or bard, though) an disabling spawns - weakening the enemies makes the meleers cut straight through them. All in all, a fighter will always b bale to do more damage than your spells, so either make them better or make the enemy worse with your spells IMO.

Buffing up other spells is nice balance - I'd love for mages to be flinging disabling spells, although atm I'm looking at only Conj and Necro being useful schools for ESF, maybe Enchantment for those that feel like running around with balors.

Talon wrote:

If we're nerfing mages we should completely remove Dev Crit.

I don't think they can do much about dev crit - they really want to change it, and the fact that they haven't is pretty good sign that altering it is difficult without haks.

I personally have no problem with this change (even though all my casters are summoners :P )

Dev Disco wrote:

OK, if a Harper Scout got a pet of that power... now THAT I'd understand.

*Votes For*

Drannok wrote:

The Wizard is slower, but has zero risk, and zero cost.

That's what is broken.

Well, now that just sums this topic up nicely.

So now I'm wondering if the goal is to reduce Wizard effetiveness; or Wizard soloing?
It looks like the ideal if it's not already the goal is just getting the Wizard set to a more-fair playing field in terms of SOLO. The idea of Solo-ing should be that it is possible, but either you can only do less-rewarding solo-ing or it's riskier for those who do good builds. Thus, promoting grouping up with at least 1 other if not more.

Now, if the idea is to lessen Wizards overall, which could have a negative impact on their party value; then I take complaint to this. Obviously any change will have an effect in both areas. Tricky, then, that it is kept to just so where the Solo-ing is fixed and parties stay welcoming.

Mind you: I Do Not Play or Have a Wizard. My opinions are based off what I've just read through in this topic. I don't even know what EDK is o.o;

Yurell wrote:

... atm I'm looking at only Conj and Necro being useful schools for ESF, maybe Enchantment for those that feel like running around with balors.

Confusion is also one heckuva disabling spell, and another huge plus for Enchanting. Enchanting has the fun RP spells too, even though it requires you to be reasonable and make sure other players are cool with it.

Btw, mages really (REALLY) don't need their 'other' spells buffed.

All this change did (even though, the nerf probably isn't as great as people 'fear' it might be), was that it no longer permitted the sorcerer/wizard to be the best class (solo) in -both- PvM and PvP, pretty much.

All this change did (hopefully), was to rid wizards/sorcerers of the 0% risk of dying while solo'ing in PvM.

I thought that was what the GS nerf was supposed to do?
Nerf them summons some more and let me GS and summon the big guys again I say.

The Big Fat Summon and Dominate/Control Nerf

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