AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic - The Official Build and Build Advice Topic: Mark II

5 druid/ 10 shifter/ 13 assassin? No clue really.

The only way you can even come close to making it work is by replacing Asn with Rogue and going to Shifter 17 for the Epic Drow Shape, forgetting the Undead Shape altogether since you say you're only shifting into Underdark Shapes. That's Dru5/Ro6/Sh17 taking Rogue at lvl 1 for squillions of Skill Points. You're replacing Death Attack with Sneaks and Ghostly Visage (which you can get from a potion anyway) with Evasion. Unless you're pumping your Int to such levels that you can't hit anything in the first place your Death Attacks will just be Sneaks with a fancy name anyway. You have to build to the Shape(s) you intend to use, too, but I'm not sure what the Drider/Drow shapes use on Amia (it's a Longbow and Longsword, respectively, in Vanilla), so you'll want Weapon Focus somewhere in there.

Driders use spears actually, and Drow thhe longsword.

My Drider in HotU had a Longbow o.0 Maybe the Drider and Epic Drider have different weapons? Or do you mean on Amia?

What about focusing the kobold thing, it's got HIPS?

Same level as Drow Warrior, Shifter 17, so not much difference except that taking Rogue at level 1 means more Skill Points for H/MS.

I'm beaten, too. Druid6/Shifter17/Assn5 is all I've got. Assassin's Death Attack at least stacks with the kobold's Sneak dice.

Last edited by Ts_ on Sat, Mar 21 2009, 13:32 PM, edited 1 time in total.

Shouldn't the correct reply be: "Wait for the new forms." ?

How about: Druid 5/Shifter 10/Rogue 13 with Epic Dodge (on level 28) as Risen Lord? It lacks the damage of the Scythe Weapon Master Shifter, but you shouldn't die as easily. And sneaking with a scythe is ... surprising? But basically you give up everything for Epic Dodge here ...

EDIT: THIS DOESN'T WORK! Either Shifter 10 or Rogue 13 would need to be taken on Level 28, but level 28 gives no general feat ...

Probably that's a very weak build ...
Ts

According to nwnwiki, Thundering rage and overwhelming crit stack with each other. Anyone know if this is true or tested it before?

Galenson wrote:

According to nwnwiki, Thundering rage and overwhelming crit stack with each other. Anyone know if this is true or tested it before?

Tested and true. But Thundering Rage does NOT stack with massive crits.

It doesn't stack because it adds a temporary massive criticals property to the weapon, and NWN will only accept the largest.

*slap*

*wallop*

*zhadunmph*

*other cartoon Tormak chastisement noises*

It stacks because on Amia, Thundering Rage doesn't fanny about with Massive Crit properties at all. It gives you 1d8 Sonic and 20DC Stun on Hit.

Hurk. Sorry.

Uberuce wrote:

*slap*

*wallop*

*zhadunmph*

*other cartoon Tormak chastisement noises*

It stacks because on Amia, Thundering Rage doesn't fanny about with Massive Crit properties at all. It gives you 1d8 Sonic and 20DC Stun on Hit.

Woah, srsly?

Quick query regarding weapon specialisation. Can you only take it as a bonus fighter feat?

What about epic weapon spec?

If so that may change my build somewhat (I have 4 fighter levels already but took mobility with my bonus feat so as to qualify for SD). I thought once you had the pre-reqs for it you could take the feat at your leisure (This is how it works in D+D), but seems not.

My build at the moment is going to be Ftr4/Rog16/SD 10... should I then chancge it to Ftr6/rog14/SD 10 or even Ftr8/rog14/SD10?

Epic Spec can be taken on a regular Fighter or CoT levelup that just happens to coincide with an Epic Feat, or it can be taken as either of their Epic Bonus Feats.

6 bonus damage is definitely better than 1d6 Sneak, though for a Shadowdancer 2d6 Sneak is already about the same. Your build of 4 /16 / 10 is fine and means you can grab more Rogue Epic Feats. Starting now to take Weapon Spec is sort of a waste if it would mean picking up the regular Weapon Spec on an Epic level.

It is useful against anything sneak immune, which is quite a bit. Some people will wholeheartedly recommend you picking up both the feats. Personally, I think you playing as a Rogue means that you have a niche to fill and you should work towards filling it as good as you can. Someone else can do the raw damage while you sneak.

Hmm, thanks for the reply xordae.

My current level is actually 15, im just thinking ahead on how to optimise him since its a self rebuild and thats the point of doing self rebuilds :p.

So yeah, my levels are rogue 7/ Fighter 4/ SD 5, so theres still 5 levels before epic. I'm impartial to fighter levels because they give more BAB, but this is really a rogue centred character. I'll also note that I do want him to be competent/awesome in PvP (he wants to become Amia's most notorious criminal

).

If I was Rog 8/Ftr 5/SD 7 pre-epic, and took my first epic level as fighter, could I take spec and epic spec in the same level? And then build on to Rog 14/Ftr 6/SD 10? That would be 16 BAB pre-epic, one less sneak attack dice, extra hp and less skill points.

OR I could go Rog 8/Ftr4/SD 8 pre epic and build to Rog 16/Ftr 4/SD10 and ditch spec. That would also be 16 pre epic BAB, give an extra sneak attack and rogue ability/epic feat and more skill points all up.

So I guess now the question is, whats going to be better all round? 6 bonus damage on every attack from my duel wielder (who has improved TWF btw) OR the epic rogue feat and 1d6 sneak attack? At the moment I'm leaning more towards the fighter levels, if anyone can confirm whether spec and epic spec can be taken on the same level that would be awesome.

You can take them on the same level, yep yep. As long as you already have Epic Weapon Focus.

Just to make it clear, you can only get E/WS at the same time on a Fighter Bonus Level. This means taking EWF at level 21 as a General Feat and then at 24 taking WS as General and EWS as your Fighter 6 Bonus feat. If you had taken WS at level 4 Fighter then you could have taken EWS at Fighter 5 as a General feat at level 24.

You're pretty much stuck with one of three things. Either you go to Fighter 5 and pick up WS as a General Feat, forgetting EWS altogether, or you go to Fighter 6 and get both WS and EWS at level 24. The last, and least desireable, is to do another rebuild and leave Fighter 4 until level 24 and take them both then (taking a BAB hit, but gaining/retaining Rogue levels).

Hmm, thanks for the help guys. Yeah I wish I knew you could only take WS as a fighter bonus feat. I already have WF. So... I guess pre epic im going to be Rog 8/Ftr 5/SD7, then at level 21 take an SD level and EWF, then at level 24 take my final fighter level and pick up WS/EWS! Sigh, its going to be a while away, but im looking forward to it. Thanks again everyone who replied.

Hmm, now I just hope I can work epic dodge in there... well I should be SD 10 at level 23 anyway so I'll have improved evasion.. my dex is currently 22 i believe... hmm I should be ok.

Finally, what are the main critiques you would give my build from a PvP standpoint? I realise dedicated sneak-hunters will be able to spot me, but what about mages, bards, clerics and dev critters? I should be on at least equal ground with them right?

You're an SD. Your PvP hierarchy is:

Well played mages > SDs (you) > Everything else is dogshit compared to you two.

I would say:

Well played Mages > Well played Pure Caster Cleric > SDs > Everything else.

However there are very few pure caster clerics. Clericzilla is too enticing (and work much better in PvM).

EDIT: Really, the Secret to PvP in NWN and Amia is be a Primary spellcaster. As has been said to me in rules discusions and character concepts a number of times: "Wow, magic is like Oxyclean in DnD."

Let's see about that when my ranger has 111 Spot, huh?

Drannok wrote:

I would say:

Well played Mages > Well played Pure Caster Cleric > SDs > Everything else.

However there are very few pure caster clerics. Clericzilla is too enticing (and work much better in PvM).

EDIT: Really, the Secret to PvP in NWN and Amia is be a Primary spellcaster. As has been said to me in rules discusions and character concepts a number of times: "Wow, magic is like Oxyclean in DnD."

I would say:

Well played Mages > Powerbuilt Dragonshapers > Clerics + Bards > SDs > Everything else.

That's on Amia, at least.

My sickeningly cheesy Dragonshaper cannot touch a Cleric. She's killed a few Mages, but no Clerics.

It's all relative, depending on the player and the specifics of the build.

That really comes down to the Mage trying to stand and fight a Dragonzilla with resources and not fleeing like he should (on Amia).

A well prepared Dragonzilla has unbeatable saves, and is Bigbie proof. This comes down to a nuke off, or a hit and fade "hope for a one" GS + Save or Die gambit.

Nuke off fails on account of the Dragonzillas bottomless bag of heal potions.

... unless I'm forgetting some major spell.

I think you forgot time stop. It stop times. They nuke. They cast time stop again. They win the match. Then again they did blow a lot of gold.

Just wondering why a dragon-shaper would have crazy saves? Never made one so I am not sure if they get some cool bonuses.

Phantom-D wrote:

Just wondering why a dragon-shaper would have crazy saves? Never made one so I am not sure if they get some cool bonuses.

Wisdom = 30 to get dragonshape = +10 will

Free 36Dex, 32Con = +13 and +11 reflex and fort

That's buff-less, so pretty close to what a paladin or bg with 18 CHA gains fully buffed.
Of course only armor merges, so... they lose a lot of slots in exchange for what they gain.

I've decided I may go for this, unless a DM threatens to shoot lasers through the internet at me:

I need a Paladin/CoT/WM build that can do crazy, unbelievably huge amounts of critical damage on a smite, but still have enough AB to actually hit things.

He doesn't have to be effective for anything but that, so yes, a crappy party leech possibly unless he can be made useful for both. And yes, Scythe wielding.

Is this doable with a level 30 cap? ... or is Greater Smiting totally illegal?

It's possible. NWNvault has a level 40 Build for it. "Hypothetically" can critical hit on a smite for 4-digit damages, but it never hits anything, has crap for AC, and so on.

It's possible with a level 30 Cap, but you're probably better off with being a mostly pure paladin.

I've actually seen the level 40 build in action, or rather, a version of it, hitting things for 2000 damage.

I'm not going for that kind of insanity ... but I'm wondering where the Greater Smiting trade off is. And if a CHA bonus race is worth the LA.

If I can hit 25 CHA at level 20, I think I can take greater smiting with every bonus feat and have a ludicrious divine damage bonus even without a critical hit. Not sure though.

I'll fire up a modual and see how it goes.

This was a total crash build to see what I could get:

Aasimar, Paladin20/CoT8/Rogue1

Start with 14 str, 8 dex, 10 con, 14 wis, 10 int, 20 cha

Paladin
1: Weapon Focus Warhammer, Blindfight
2:
3: Power Attack
4: +1 CHA
5:
6: Divine Might
7:
8: +1 CHA
9: Extra Smiting
10:
11:
12: +1 CHA, Imp. Crit Warhammer
13:
14:
15: Divine Shield
16: +1 CHA
17:
18: Extra Turning
19:
20: +1 CHA
Champion of Torm
21: Greater Smiting I
22: Greater Smiting II
23:
24: +1 STR, Greater Smiting III and IV
25:
26: Greater Smiting V
27: Greater Smiting VI
28: +1 STR, Greater Smiting VII
29: Tumble/UMD Dump Rogue level

I went with Warhammer because with Greater Smiting VII...

Massive Overkill.

EDIT: Adding in Divine Might damage and Weapon bonuses, plus at least 13 extra AB on a smite, is there anything on the server that can take a full load of 3 300+ damage super smites? That's not even a critical ...

I'm currently working out my drow's cleric build. I've got most of the ideas done but....there's a few issues i'm still debating over. Mostly it revolves around tradeoffs.

23Cleric/5Blackguard gives me same AB/attacks as a fighter and I net an extra darkness spell and a useless fiend minion for additional cannon fodder but at the expense of the ability to summon a mummy (mind you she'll still have a mummy dust I guess and Efreeti, etc)....wight is the best one can hope for...

24Cleric/4BG gets a Mummy and an extra level on spell penetration but at the expense of 1AB, Darkness, Summon useless fiend cannon fodder.

Given the new nerfing of summons, I'm not even sure which way to go now...I guess the person to ask is Uberuce, since he understands the new nerfing...Gut instinct says a 23/5 build

Alternatively, a 23cleric/4BG/1Rogue build....for the UMD/Sneak attack damage...?

I could go EDK but I'm guessing a damage soak is the better option for cleric hence mummy dust.

None of them.

23 cleric/3 BG/2 rogue.

Thanks! Darn, forgot all about the all important evasion...

From a powerbuild standpoint, is there any more reason to go beyond 20 Paladin other than spell duration?

Spell Duration isn't a tiny thing: Nothing like running all day Prayers and better GMWs, and longer Holy Swords... spell duration isn't something to sneeze at.

You're also looking at stronger Turn Undeads, strong Smite Evils, better Lay on Hands, and the bonus epic feats that come from pureclassing high epic.

Not to mention being a b*tch to dispell when you're a 30 Pala. And a Pala without his buffs is like a Fighter without Feats and with probably low Str & Cha. Good luck.

Hm good thing you mention that, i always wonder how Greater dispelling worked and what does it dispell.

Also:
-low lvl class dispeller, what would be dispell vs low lvl spellcaster?
-Hight lvl class dispeller vs low lvl spellcaster?
-Low lvl class dispeller vs Hight lvl spellcaster (probably not much but why?)
-Hight lvl class dispeller vs Hight spellcaster?

I know it all work using Spellbreach, all the info for that one can be find in Wiki but im struguling for the other dispelling stuffs.

I also know a Sorc with Mord with CHA mod 17 can dispell an EDK from one of Terra's build but why?

Dispel check:

d20 + Dispellers CL vs. Effect Casters CL.

Greater dispel can't dispel effects that are higher then 25 whilst the breaches automatic strips a few buffs according to their position in the breachlist.

Mordenkiens is the strongest dispel in the game since its uncapped and does both a breach and then a dispel.

Supernatrual and extraordinary effects can't be dispelled. Mummy dust and EMA are extraordinary and thus immune to dispel.

Which is why the Beholders antimagic ray don't eat your Mummy Dust which is terribly LAME.

I've been thinking about something I posted a page or two back.

A Gnome Druid with 18 starting Constitution (Ending 22) and 17 starting Wisdom (Ending 20) could get Epic DR3 and extended EDK. Uberuce posted some items to wear that meant it could get Pretty Heavy DR with its critical immunities and Barbarian-esque HP score - I believe 16/- with +450HP and the ability to spam Extended Regeneration.

I'm wondering though. Its a little featstarved. A Pureclassed Druid (I absolutely refuse to do the Monk exploit) gets 11+2 Feats - Epic DR, Full EDK, Zen Archery, Extend and Toughness leave just 2 pre epic feats and 1 Epic Druid bonus feat spare. No Armour Skin, Epic Weapon Focus or other Epic Spells. Should I trash the EDK? I'm not sure how much damage it would be able to do (Even with an Epic Badger) and I wouldn't like to be a leech (again). Or should it use a Fighter Multiclass? I'm wary of multiclassing Spellcasters, especially ones with such a nice fringe benefit as a 15/- Regen+9 companion.

Since this is the place to ask this kind of question, I'll ask it here.

I'm going to rebuild my half red dragoness. I have one problem, which is the ability to multiclass. Since I *need* wings to be anything near a dragonkin, I'll have to sacrifice at least 10 levels, 9 RDD and 1 Bard or Sorceress. I could get RDD 10 for the immune to fire, which would be logical for a red half dragon to have. So that's 11 levels down.

My question is, what kind of build and how do I build her so that she's at least able to do a DevCrit. I've made Elrien so many times, but always end up having unsatisfied feeling.

It could be the fact that I could just not take any RDD levels and just multi-class something on my own and earn 50 DC's to get those wings. I just find it rather outragous to earn wings while they come naturally.

Should I just walk wingless and explain to everyone in emotes that she has imaginary wings or go the RDD route. *scratches head*

@ Cloak-and-Dagger:

You're entirely focused on being a tank and getting summons to do the work ... It's extremely hard to do damage like that in an unarmed shape. Unlike the armed shapes there is no chance for you to penetrate damage reduction, no elemental damage, nothing.

The only reasonable way I see is to ditch the CON and Epic DR which makes your build entirely different ...

One option is to take lots of Charisma and Divine might/Divine Shield. That's what I would suggest because it gives damage and AC. Here's how:

Ignore CON, take 13 STR and put the Rest in CHA and take Cleric 2 or Blackguard 4 for Divine Might and Divine Shield. That needs only preepic changes and frees up three epic feats. Of course, this goes against being a tank, but your high CON is overwritten anyway. The effect: One of your out-of-shape stats actually improves your shape! (unlike STR,CON,DEX,INT, oh, and WIS ...)

That way, all you aim for is STR 13, WIS 20 and CHA around 20. That should be doable just with levelups and frees up tons of epic feats. (Sadly, you cannot selfbuff your CHA, but potions work better than spells in shapes anyway.)

STR buffed to 40 gives you AB to hit things (combined with the epic AB feats) and CHA buffed to at least 28 makes sure you hit for at least nine (9) magical damage ... The divine might will also help your archery.

I suppose Druid 26/BG 4 gives you the most. 1 more BAB for 4 attacks, extra damage, extra AC from divine shield, saves, tine 1d6 sneak, infinite elemental shapes etc. And an evil elemental druid sounds cool enough.

Other options:

* A Druid 26/BG 4 might still be able to take Epic DR III with CHA at 8, buffed to 16, and do at least a tiny +3 magical damage while nothing can hit you. But it seems extremely weird ...

* Also, 5 fighter levels and epic weapon specialization give you 1 more AB, 1 more attack, 6 extra damage. However, you still hit for fist damage + 15 (STR) +6 (EWS) which might not penetrate damage reduction at all.

* You could, of course, go for DevCrit Unarmed, which you would be able to use with a buffed strength of 43 as Earth elemetal which is as good a DC as a very dedicated DevCritter, but less AB and less threat range.

* I believe monk flurry works in Elemental Shape but I'm not sure and you don't want monk anyway. Otherwise, it would be a nice addition.

* The sad thing is, Dragon shape does all this and more on a pure Druid ... (unless the heavy Dragon DR is gone on Amia?)

Thinking about shapeshifting builds always makes me sad ...
Ts

Terra_777 wrote:

Dispel check:

d20 + Dispellers CL vs. Effect Casters CL.

Greater dispel can't dispel effects that are higher then 25 whilst the breaches automatic strips a few buffs according to their position in the breachlist.

Mordenkiens is the strongest dispel in the game since its uncapped and does both a breach and then a dispel.

Effect that are highter 25? im thinking hm a lvl 5 spell that protect a character lvl 30 but have 20 caster lvl mean DC 25? So a lvl 26 caster would be d20 + 26 = 26-46 vs 25 = win
Could you give more exemple if im wrong?
If im right = thank you!

But i still dont get number on Mord vs EDK, it's also uncapped? Mean other dispell are capped?

soundofastream wrote:

Thanks! Darn, forgot all about the all important evasion...

And ignored the fact that a cleric has divine power which gives you the BaB of a fighter at the same level albiet the bonus is simulated so counts towards your +20 AB cap.

Still my cleric nets 51 AB (registerd in the combat log) at max level without a single +1 BaB level in pre-epic.

The Most Efficient version however is 25 Cleric 1 Monk 2 BG. 25 CL is auto immunity to greater dispel.

1 Monk nets evasion -and- cleave thus freeing up another feat for something else.

2 BG nets dark blessing. 'nuff said.

3 Blackgurd nets create undead and turn undead: utterly pointless since you nab both as a cleric.

can anyone help me... i though of a hin paladin, with high ac (if possible)
could some CoT lvls be good?

Its entirely possible to make a Monk/Pally of the Hin Fist/Yondall by the way. Its allowed in the lore I think.

MoshingChris wrote:

soundofastream wrote:

Thanks! Darn, forgot all about the all important evasion...

And ignored the fact that a cleric has divine power which gives you the BaB of a fighter at the same level albiet the bonus is simulated so counts towards your +20 AB cap.

Still my cleric nets 51 AB (registerd in the combat log) at max level without a single +1 BaB level in pre-epic.

The Most Efficient version however is 25 Cleric 1 Monk 2 BG. 25 CL is auto immunity to greater dispel.

1 Monk nets evasion -and- cleave thus freeing up another feat for something else.

2 BG nets dark blessing. 'nuff said.

3 Blackgurd nets create undead and turn undead: utterly pointless since you nab both as a cleric.

Thanks Chris! Great idea...only thing with it is...i'll now have to de-level back to 6 (2 levels) so I can drop cleave and pick up monk....does it stil all work with full plate? I think you only lose wisdom bonus right? (which you don't get anyway with 1 monk...). It wouldn't be fitting in the the lore exactly...but i'm sure i'd find an excuse...to take 1 monk level.

Oh wait! I forgot..there was a reason why I rejected monk. Deity alignments need to match and she's CE.

Ts_ wrote:

* You could, of course, go for DevCrit Unarmed, which you would be able to use with a buffed strength of 43 as Earth elemetal which is as good a DC as a very dedicated DevCritter, but less AB and less threat range.

Eeep! No. When you shift, you are no unarmed: you are using a weapon that the engine calls Creature. You can't take Devcrit(creature), so it won't work.

The Balor shape yields a 43DC Devcrit(greatsword), but Druids can't use greatswords because of their oaths, so they'd not be able to learn the feat unless you're being a munchkin.

There may very possibly be a treehugger god who's an exception to that rule; there's generally an exception to everything if you look hard enough.

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