Drow raids were mentioned as being a right of passage in Drow culture, and yet they simply don't happen because the Good Guys will always win. I'm willing to bet that the Good Guys always win because the Good Guys are a bunch of Epics. A right of passage is something you do at low levels, not something you do when you're Epic... but in order to have even a slight chance of success the Drow have to be Epic to counter the fact that there's likely to be a dozen Epic Elves/Druids/Paladins having high tea in the area to be raided. For that Drow RP to have even a shred of integrity the raiding party has to consist of low levels proving themselves, and yet necessity demands they be Epic because they will fail otherwise.
That snippet of lore was presumably written on the assumption those raids would be done sitting around a table with four other people and a DM who was not going to drop level a dozen 30 NPCs on your head.
It doesn't work for a server of 3-30's, so it needs fiddled to fit one; call it the rite of passage for the end of your training, not the start. Not that I even consider end of levelling the end of training; it isn't as significant to my character's effectiveness as learning how to operate it and kitting it out properly.
Being unwilling to modify lore written for a different format to Amia (radically different in many ways) is the problem here, methinkles.
*Donk. Donk. Donk.*
"What are you doing?"
"Stupid hole's broken."
"Eh? *looks* There's nothing wrong with it, it's a perfectly good round hole."
"But my peg doesn't fit it."
"That peg's square."
"That's what I mean! That's how the hole's broken!"
"Why don't you just plane the corners off it?"
"But it's a square peg. It'll never fit a square hole if it's round."
"There is no square hole."
"Well, they should make the round one square."
"What? It's in the side of the building! We'd have to take off the entire wall! It'd take you two minutes with a chisel to fix that peg."
My point was that it can happen and it would happen more often if the server had more low levels. The only reason that kind of RP can't work right now is because there is an Epic around every corner. Your argument, 'Uce, is a perfect example of "I can't RP until I'm level 30 because everyone else is already level 30".
_________________ "Where's my pony?"
"I'm sorry, baby, I had to feed that pony to a dragon."
"Oh. Whose horse is this?"
"It's a Warhorse, baby."
"Whose Warhorse is this?"
"Zed's"
"Who's Zed?"
"Zed's dead, baby. Zed's dead."
I don't think I made the connection between lower XP and random quests in random locations as clear as I could have because people seem to be stuck on the idea that they would be grinding for twice as long as they are now.
The point was that you would have to go out looking for random quests... because they are random and because they could appear anywhere. While you are out there looking you are earning less XP than you do now. It may even be worth your while to go wandering around CR3 areas when you're ECL 29 because the quests are PC- not area-based. Upon completion of a random quest you get a large XP reward and the slim chance of an Epic or other rare/high quality item (meaning you don't need to be a multi-millionaire or a boss-farmer to gain Epic loot). Because the quests are random one person might be so extraordinarily lucky that they do enough quests to get to 30 in a week, while another person only manages one quest per month. "Grinding" then becomes "looking for an adventure" because you have a purpose to be out there.
If you really would prefer to stand around in town RPing a beggar or merchant then there's nothing stopping you. The fact that you're a low level PC only opens up more RP opportunities. There's more RP to be had as a lvl 3 PC merchant that has to hire bodyguards to protect, and a team of adventurers to acquire, his goods than there is in playing a level 30 that can do it all himself.
I do find it frustrating, however, to see some people in here accusing me of trying to force "my way" on them when they are among those that always seem to be looking for ways to force people to stay in town and prevent them from going out into the world.
_________________ "Where's my pony?"
"I'm sorry, baby, I had to feed that pony to a dragon."
"Oh. Whose horse is this?"
"It's a Warhorse, baby."
"Whose Warhorse is this?"
"Zed's"
"Who's Zed?"
"Zed's dead, baby. Zed's dead."
I kind of see what Sokar is getting at. I RP'd one of my characters as a lvl 2 for month's IRL and during that time I found most of the time my lvl 2's RP was stepped on by instant Epic pwnage.
I found though I had decent RP times they were far and few compared to the Epic pwnage. I was glad when I eventually reached Epic, because I felt like my RP would be tougher to be stomped flat.
Someone said words to the effect that they think monster-bashing is boring so they rush through it as fast as they can so that they can get into the "real" RP in Epic levels... only to find that there's largely nothing for them to do but spend the majority of their time engaging in soap-opera RP... so that's what they do.
A few other people discussed the issues with Evil on Amia. The single biggest issue with playing Evil is that if you try and do something you will be confronted, and smacked down, by a bunch of Epic Good Guys of Goodness. To have even the slightest chance you need to be an Epic Bad Guy of Evilness.... and even then you need to have a bunch of equally Epic friends with you or you're still going to get smacked down. There is absolutely no opportunity, short of a pre-scripted event, of a Good vs Evil confrontation, of any kind, that doesn't end with Epic Spells. Even when the opportunity does arise players frequently back down, or turn a blind eye, until they are powerful enough to respond/defend themselves.
Drow raids were mentioned as being a right of passage in Drow culture, and yet they simply don't happen because the Good Guys will always win. I'm willing to bet that the Good Guys always win because the Good Guys are a bunch of Epics. A right of passage is something you do at low levels, not something you do when you're Epic... but in order to have even a slight chance of success the Drow have to be Epic to counter the fact that there's likely to be a dozen Epic Elves/Druids/Paladins having high tea in the area to be raided. For that Drow RP to have even a shred of integrity the raiding party has to consist of low levels proving themselves, and yet necessity demands they be Epic because they will fail otherwise.
Perhaps the most potent comment made was "you've never walked into a tavern in P&P and tried to rob the barkeep only to find out he's a retired Epic Fighter, have you?"
I can't believe I didn't see this post when I looked over the thread until now. I gotta say, it is pretty accurate. I also gotta say it gets pretty annoying when your Bartender is actually a level 30 monk that for some reason wants to sell ale at the same time as running a temple.
On the evil people have to be level 30, I agree completely. If you're not an epic character, your a piece'a'shit. I think a contributing problem to that is the fact that people are probably not enjoying the RP (which doesn't have to be done at level 30). The RP is an important part of a Roleplaying server because grinding all day is the crap you find on WoW. Amia has a lot of trends that follow WoW, primarily the one on the grinding problem and people that think that they -MUST- get to level 30 in order to properly RP. Being Epic-levels and powerbuilding makes PVP the most necessary part of the game.
I'm actually going to say that the best RP you can have is on the journey to level 15, not being a God-Like character that runs around Dev-critting shit. I mean hey, there are few low levels on the server and they level up quickly because there is little value in the levels. Meh, any factions with ranks like the Cordor guard probably won't experience proper skill as in your private being a level 30 dev-critting machine, or your ordinary acolyte in a temple being the resurrection machine.
Something about value is the value of Gold. It is like massively inflated. I don't know anyone who could carry hundreds of thousands of Gold pieces. Personally, I prefer low gold piece amounts, like that heal kit costing 20 gold instead of 200 (it makes the gold worth more if everything is lower in prices)
//I like to say, "I gotta say"
_________________
Moridan_X wrote:
I liek Jean Ortega as a character because it shows that everyone can be different. I also don't think we should incorporate mean behavior in video games.
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 Location: Land of the Scorching Sun, Empowered by Global Warming
Sokar Rostau wrote:
Drow raids were mentioned as being a right of passage in Drow culture, and yet they simply don't happen because the Good Guys will always win. I'm willing to bet that the Good Guys always win because the Good Guys are a bunch of Epics. A right of passage is something you do at low levels, not something you do when you're Epic... but in order to have even a slight chance of success the Drow have to be Epic to counter the fact that there's likely to be a dozen Epic Elves/Druids/Paladins having high tea in the area to be raided. For that Drow RP to have even a shred of integrity the raiding party has to consist of low levels proving themselves, and yet necessity demands they be Epic because they will fail otherwise.
I think that what xordae tried to say was that you have more good-aligned characters on at any given time than evil-aligned.
The good-aligned PCs always outnumber the evil-aligned ones.
I could be wrong, though, in which case I will stand corrected.
_________________ BlackDahlya
Once Upon A Time Played Adr'ael Ken'rahel, Auron Teken’ath, Aurora Mesodias, 'Daniel' Daoskinaxarijikkym, Eilin'ira, Helena Rios, Layla Faircurrent, May'Une Do'Ndar, Mellinda Tellus, Michael of Cliffside, Rizzen of Twilight, Valkirya d'Claddath
Why not ask a DM to set up some island town, connected by the underriver and whatnot, with some hostile npc peoples to fight with? You get all of the fight, none of the mess with other otherwise uninvolved players, and there you go!
Also, what about drow raids on the rebel camp, or the barbarian camp, or the bandit hideout? Why do they have to be PC heavy cities/towns?
_________________ "Freedom is the Right of all sentient beings."
-Optimus Prime.
Joined: 30 Aug 2008 Location: Some planet known as Earth
Wolfking6116 wrote:
Moridan_X wrote:
On the evil people have to be level 30, I agree completely. If you're not an epic character, your a piece'a'(censored).
Not very true, several of my alts are evil, and all low level. I've had satisfying evil RP with them, given its short since they're only alts.
I think he's getting at the point that: If your an evil aligned character, your more likely to be involved in trouble/pvp rp, and if your not in the epic levels then you practically loose every fight that shows up because in all probability the people your up against are epics.
So it then becomes, to even give evil aligned characters a 'chance' to win, they have to be epics, and fairly decent builds at that to survive the several if not dozens of 'good guys' coming after them for 'x' evil action.
...and if their not epic, loosing every fight isn't much fun for long.
(this also means the majority of epics who are the 'IC good guys' then get pissed oocly because the (lower level or less in number) evil aligns keep returning after constantly loosing in pvp, which then discourages people from playing evil at all, which isn't a pretty cycle for the server)
So it's an imbalance, one I would love to see fixed...
I'm just not sure how aside from encouraging 'evil IC rp' and hoping they have enough in numbers to withstand the mob of good aligned epics, currently the method has been 'hide somewhere to avoid the mob', confrontation of the undying mob is not an easy fence to jump, so to speak.
It's just simple strength in numbers. (and levels)
..and that's how we get the majority of the 'RP at 30' argument. (as good vs evil align is a huge source, if not the main one, for pvp conflict)
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 Location: Land of the Scorching Sun, Empowered by Global Warming
Azrael wrote:
Wolfking6116 wrote:
Moridan_X wrote:
On the evil people have to be level 30, I agree completely. If you're not an epic character, your a piece'a'(censored).
Not very true, several of my alts are evil, and all low level. I've had satisfying evil RP with them, given its short since they're only alts.
I think he's getting at the point that: If your an evil aligned character, your more likely to be involved in trouble/pvp rp, and if your not in the epic levels then you practically loose every fight that shows up because in all probability the people your up against are epics.
So it then becomes, to even give evil aligned characters a 'chance' to win, they have to be epics, and fairly decent builds at that to survive the several if not dozens of 'good guys' coming after them for 'x' evil action.
...and if their not epic, loosing every fight isn't much fun for long.
(this also means the majority of epics who are the 'IC good guys' then get pissed oocly because the (lower level or less in number) evil aligns keep returning after constantly loosing in pvp, which then discourages people from playing evil at all, which isn't a pretty cycle for the server)
So it's an imbalance, one I would love to see fixed...
I'm just not sure how aside from encouraging 'evil IC rp' and hoping they have enough in numbers to withstand the mob of good aligned epics, currently the method has been 'hide somewhere to avoid the mob', confrontation of the undying mob is not an easy fence to jump, so to speak.
It's just simple strength in numbers. (and levels)
..and that's how we get the majority of the 'RP at 30' argument. (as good vs evil align is a huge source, if not the main one, for pvp conflict)
This is what I was trying to say with my all previous post. Thanks. ^^;
_________________ BlackDahlya
Once Upon A Time Played Adr'ael Ken'rahel, Auron Teken’ath, Aurora Mesodias, 'Daniel' Daoskinaxarijikkym, Eilin'ira, Helena Rios, Layla Faircurrent, May'Une Do'Ndar, Mellinda Tellus, Michael of Cliffside, Rizzen of Twilight, Valkirya d'Claddath
My point was that it can happen and it would happen more often if the server had more low levels. The only reason that kind of RP can't work right now is because there is an Epic around every corner. Your argument, 'Uce, is a perfect example of "I can't RP until I'm level 30 because everyone else is already level 30".
You said earlier in the thread that you're not advocating a server wipe(or blanket delevelling to do the same thing), but I think that's what it would take for your plan to work. Not just a server wipe of all the epics now, but another one some months or years down the line when they get back up and there's an epic on every corner again, and then another after that ad infinitum.
Believe me when i say I understand your frustration completely: when I was a DM it was basically impossible to make a lowbie* event without some kind of McGuffin that brought the players to an unlinked area. Anything else and it was just a matter of time before Bored Epic #377 came trundling over the horizon and Wailcritted everything in two seconds.
More often than not, said Bored Epic was a character that was years old. To slow levelling down now isn't going to change the ability of the existing epics to steamroller anything based on mechanics. The horse has bolted, so what is the point of closing the stable door now?
*ie one that depended in some way on a fight being won or lost, the difficulty of which was aimed at a certain level. No-combat events were not a problem.
I agree that there are certain types of RP that are basically futile until you're 30 since everyone's 30, but the only solutions I see to that are removing all the 30's, or simply avoiding those types of RP. The nature of the lowbie's game world is that there are people a bajillion times stronger than you; it's not plausible RP for smart characters to cause a problem to an epic that he or she can fix by stomping them.
Joined: 30 Aug 2008 Location: Some planet known as Earth
Uberuce wrote:
You said earlier in the thread that you're not advocating a server wipe(or blanket delevelling to do the same thing), but I think that's what it would take for your plan to work. Not just a server wipe of all the epics now, but another one some months or years down the line when they get back up and there's an epic on every corner again, and then another after that ad infinitum.
Why would there be another one? the only reason for another wipe is if the server fix was done stupidly the first time. (which if there is a server wipe it then becomes 'the top priority' to get it done right.)
Uberuce wrote:
More often than not, said Bored Epic was a character that was years old. To slow levelling down now isn't going to change the ability of the existing epics to steamroller anything based on mechanics. The horse has bolted, so what is the point of closing the stable door now?
To continue the metaphor...It stops it's babies from growing up who are still in the stables. (but yes to be fair the current epics would need to be wiped/delevel'd.)
..but it is only needed once if done right.
..and would require a huuuge sacrifice on the behalf of the playerbase.
Personally I would be for it, having 5 epic level characters says how far I'd go to make the server better for years to come. (but i I'm not blind and know there are many who are not so passionate after the hours of leveling put into them)
_________________
Lalelilolu wrote:
*Po-tee-weet?*
Night is just another day without light.
Last edited by Azrael on Sat, Mar 14 2009, 7:54 AM, edited 1 time in total.
Joined: 30 Aug 2008 Location: Some planet known as Earth
555444333 wrote:
Let's do one better. Let's just wipe the module and start over *nodnod*
That's a totally nonconstructive post that had only one goal:
To create and cause unnecessary fear/panic in an attempt to shoot the idea down.
Try logic and simply say you are one of the one's not willing to make the sacrifice to make 'this specific' change happen. That I can understand and have no issue with.
Joined: 29 Aug 2006 Location: Victoria, BC, Canada
Azrael wrote:
...loosing every fight isn't much fun for long...
...I'm tired of hearing this, loosing is so fun (Sure winning might be better but loosing can be fun too). Hell, more then 90% of all my fights I have lost and you know what? It's still fun!
You know what a good solution is to whole level issue is? Shut up and just enjoy what happens anyhow.
Why is it so damn important that somebody is able to beat down anything that they come across and somebody else isn't?
Joined: 30 Aug 2008 Location: Some planet known as Earth
Yea it's fun for awhile, I do enjoy interrogation rp, Seliene has been captured three to four times by the Kelemvorites and questioned for being a Necromancer, executed once, since then she has been 'laying low' (in hiding from them)...loved the roleplay regardless.
But it is not fun to loose almost every single pvp match, for the vast majority of people.
..that's why so many discuss and obsess over balancing classes and spells, to try and make it fair to both pvp and pvm (especially when it concerns bosses).
Also it's why the build topic gets so long as people weigh and discuss how to make a better and stronger build, it's so they can actually put up a decent fight, whether pvp or pvm.
It's not about winning everytime either, it's about balance, not loosing or winning constantly but abit of both, but always doing your best as your character ICly generally likes to survive.
Joined: 30 Aug 2008 Location: Some planet known as Earth
Nekhy wrote:
If you need absolutes and certainties to your life, here's one: there won't be a server wipe on Amia.
Even the accidental ones we're trying to avoid by doing backups a lot.
Nopes, I don't need absolutes and certainties, my entire life philosophy is based on acknowledging the unknown, and realizing the 'meanings to life' are still not proven or dis-proven to be known 100%.
---
This is a nice absolute to have however for the forum topic, it also basically ends most of the topic *shrugs*
Was a decent idea but involves a new core system, it seems Amia will be forever with its many, many, epics.
Not that that is horribly bad or anything, it just means we haven't seen the last of the 'rp starts at 30' complaints.
...just one of those topics I perdict will come agian in the future.
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