AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic - This is getting out of hand

This is getting out of hand. People who die in teams, when entire team have been wiped, or They died while team had already moved out of the area via portal are majorly abusing the Respawn system. I will constantly get in party chat "I'm logging to B and hope someone free raises me" and once I inform them about the DM's stance on that, they will be "Well i'm gonna log another character then, so I get a free raise at server Restart."

IMO this is an abuse of the system, and something needs to be done. It ruins ANY RP while hunting, and usually breaks up the team.

Waiting to get raised in the entry on reset is not against the rules, nor discouraged. You even used to get raised automatically after reset, the only reason this has been disabled were some technical difficulties that cropped up due to there being two servers.

Yeah, didnt even knew going to B to get respawn was forbidden. I learned that yesterday..

I think the OP meant going to B, getting a raise eventually, and then come back to A to party again.

Its not about being raised in the entry way. Its about being raised instead of taking the death penalty which can be up to 3000 XP - 40000 GP, when you got killed 3 hours before the restart, or logging onto the other server when DMs have stated they are getting sick of that.

Dread, does it make more sense to have someone "respawn" and then lose xp and gold and then port directly to where they died?

RigorIYIortis wrote:

Dread, does it make more sense to have someone "respawn" and then lose xp and gold and then port directly to where they died?

Yes.

IMO, anyone who dies and switches over to the other server for a free raise loses all right to cry metagaming. It may not explicitly be against the rules, but it's definitely cheap.

Last edited by Acrid on Mon, Mar 09 2009, 19:12 PM, edited 1 time in total.

I think it's a maturity problem as some want to have much fun as they can get and losing xp and gold isnt fun, they avoid consequences.
And yes, im one of thoses but i will respawn or wait for reset (if close) for now on

IMO if you log in dead to the server that you didn't die on, you should get booted. You should log back on to the server where you died and either wait for a raise there or take the XP hit. It's not the job of every cleric passing through the entry area to raise cheap players.

It's either that or auto-respawn everyone and make it hard as hell for them to get back to fighting, which wouldn't be very popular.

I'm with Selmak on that one.

Woah. It didn't even cross my mind that such could be done with the system. I guess some players just have a mind twisted for exploiting.

I don't know what could be done to block it, but I will simply kill you again or extract the respawn penalty if I see you doing that.

So, is logging into B when you die on A a nono? When you die on A, is waiting for reset to get raised there an ''exploit'' too?

My personal call: Neither is an outright exploit, though the former is borderline. However: Logging into B for a raise, and then logging back into A, into the very same area you logged off from, to continue your hunt is an exploit.

Not possible. If you log out from A to B and then back to A, you'll start in the entry of A.

hm, you get to Welcome to amia, not back to the hunting ground where you died.. *cought cought*

EDIT: >.<

I would call it more than borderline. Players come through the entry rooms frequently. By logging from A to B or vice versa, you can basically hang around both entry rooms until you get raised. Much sooner than you would by waiting at your spot of death or waiting for the reset.

Why even have death in the first place, if you can just magically teleport your corpse to other players?

Other than switching from A to B (or vice-versa), which is certainly abuse, I don't see a problem, especially given the stance of a number of DMs. At one point, players had three options, they could log out and wait until reset, lay around, or take the massive gold/XP hit. Now, however, those options are reduced to two as the majority of the DMs now consider being dead the same as being AFK, so you need either respawn and take the hit to gold and XP, or log out.

Taking away that last option, too, and forcing players to respawn when they die wouldn't be taken to very well, and for good reason. Respawning makes exactly zero RP sense, and only serves to give penalties to the players for dying in a different form than not being able to play that character for the rest of the reset. At the moment, it's sort of a "Choose Your Punishment" thing, which is nice.

IronAngel wrote:

Woah. It didn't even cross my mind that such could be done with the system. I guess some players just have a mind twisted for exploiting.

I don't know what could be done to block it, but I will simply kill you again or extract the respawn penalty if I see you doing that.

Then why didn't I think of this.. wait..I'mto awesome to die.. and to impatiant to wait for someone to raise me.. whats 40k two spawn drops?

Um, don't you go to the area you previously logged off from, once you leave the entry?

Not if you switch servers. If you log from A to B, then back, you go to the entry, and start at the beginning.

Once you switch servers, that temporary location information is getting sacked and you could switch back and forth between them, ending up in the entry room on each server, and from there going either to Wiltun or Cordor as usual.

Deadlydread wrote:

People who die in teams, when entire team have been wiped. It ruins ANY RP while hunting, and usually breaks up the team.

Uhh so what RP is there left when your entire team is wiped?
If only one person dies, normally he/she will wait for a raise.
How does that break the team again?

Let it be known now, THIS IS AN EXPLOIT. If you are caught doing it, you are subject to punishment. Let's say, from 12 hours now (time of this post) so that everyone has had a chance to read this warning and correct their behaviour.

If I'm in a party that wiped and want to stay in that party, I don't mind clicking respawn, multiple times if necessary.

Having said that, I got raised in the entry room quite often because there are situations where I dodge the death penalty. Call it cheap, lame, immature, an exploit, whatever. There is a simple reason for this: OOC frustration.

Usually this happens when there is absolutely no one I could party and earn XP with. So I explore a little on my own on a server designed for groups and I tend to die doing so. I was already frustrated when I started because I waited quite long to find a party or at least someone to RP with. Now dead, I either continue on the other server (if I get raised there) or switch chars.

I liked the free raises at reset in the good old times and found it a suitable compromise. One free raise every 24 real life hours would also be fine and would, at least in my opinion, show a little friendliness towards those that don't farm OOCly known territory all the time. The free first respawn is nice, but it's not really helpful in the long run.

And a little hint for those without that "mind twisted for exploiting": Going back to the point where you died, after switching temporarily to the other server to get raised, would be even worse because it's like portalling to the leader.

Regards,
Ts

PS: Yes, this partially was a rant.

I've done this twice and I obviously won't again. But I will say that it makes no sense to me whatsoever to lose gold and experience points after respawn. The servers have a modified XP range based on the CR system that is vastly different from normal PnP rules. This makes it much more difficult to gain XP and level up, so the penalty imposed for a respawn is made that much worse. It is adding insult to injury. There are alternate ideas that could be implemented that are much more in line with RP. For example, once dead a respawn will cause you to stay in "limbo" for X number of in game hours based on your level. I could come up with many more ideas but I feel it wouldn't matter what I suggest.

RigorIYIortis wrote:

I've done this twice and I obviously won't again. But I will say that it makes no sense to me whatsoever to lose gold and experience points after respawn. The servers have a modified XP range based on the CR system that is vastly different from normal PnP rules. This makes it much more difficult to gain XP and level up, so the penalty imposed for a respawn is made that much worse. It is adding insult to injury. There are alternate ideas that could be implemented that are much more in line with RP. For example, once dead a respawn will cause you to stay in "limbo" for X number of in game hours based on your level. I could come up with many more ideas but I feel it wouldn't matter what I suggest.

Go die on Arabel with a character and then argue about Amian's death penalty again.

I'd say the death penalties are a touch too light if anything, the XP and gold taken isn't that much that it can cripple your character.

Avoiding them or logging off is silly in most cases, as you can get your XP back and then some if you bite the bullet and get back in the fight. I made a new character last night, and I've never seen the Kobolds roll so many 20s, but that is how it goes some days, hehe.

Fives times or so, until I wizened up and got a party member, and did much better, level 4 never felt so good!

Nekhy wrote:

Let it be known now, THIS IS AN EXPLOIT. If you are caught doing it, you are subject to punishment. Let's say, from 12 hours now (time of this post) so that everyone has had a chance to read this warning and correct their behaviour.

Disco:
can you put this in the "journal: rules and lore" please, and perhaps also for a week or 2 as a message when you leave the entrance areas?

Alright, waiting for server to reset to get raised is forbidden but dying in A and respawn to B is allowed!

Pretty clear!

Acrid wrote:

Alright, waiting for server to reset to get raised is forbidden but dying in A and respawn to B is allowed!

Pretty clear!

other way around

Nekhy wrote:

Let it be known now, THIS IS AN EXPLOIT. If you are caught doing it, you are subject to punishment. Let's say, from 12 hours now (time of this post) so that everyone has had a chance to read this warning and correct their behaviour.

u should shout that too cuz im pretty sure not every player reads the forums

Disco is adamant about not updating until I've left Amsterdam, so it's on you guys now. Spam his inbox that he should put up a notice ingame, or something. I did try already, you know.

Xalyth wrote:

Avoiding them or logging off is silly in most cases, as you can get your XP back and then some if you bite the bullet and get back in the fight.

[I died] Fives times or so, until I wizened up and got a party member, and did much better, level 4 never felt so good!

Correct ... If you have a party, the respawn penalty means nothing and that's good. If you don't find a party, "biting the bullet and getting back in the fight" means more death and nets you negative xp. At least for me it does and I don't find this particularly entertaining.

Anyway, I'm fine with the new ruling.

Regards,
Ts

hendrack wrote:

RigorIYIortis wrote:

I've done this twice and I obviously won't again. But I will say that it makes no sense to me whatsoever to lose gold and experience points after respawn. The servers have a modified XP range based on the CR system that is vastly different from normal PnP rules. This makes it much more difficult to gain XP and level up, so the penalty imposed for a respawn is made that much worse. It is adding insult to injury. There are alternate ideas that could be implemented that are much more in line with RP. For example, once dead a respawn will cause you to stay in "limbo" for X number of in game hours based on your level. I could come up with many more ideas but I feel it wouldn't matter what I suggest.

Go die on Arabel with a character and then argue about Amian's death penalty again.

Absolutely not, I play on Amia nowhere else and I'm not just complaining about the death penalty I am complaining about the XP system AND the respawn penalty. This really stems from the hordes of creatures required to gain a level. The suspension of belief that within a few hours time a whole dungeon is repopulated with hundreds of creatures just like the ones whose corpses would still be littering the chambers.

Take at look at this example of PnP vs Amia:

In PnP, a party of three 4th level characters battle against a CR4 goblin and kill it. The 1200xp reward for the party would be split evenly so 400 each. A solo player 4th level character against the same goblin would earn the whole 1200xp. That seems like an awful lot, but in reality a single 4th level pc should have a hard time defeating and probably have a 50% chance of dying vs that CR4 goblin. Yet that one goblin is the whole encounter. Whereas the same party battling against eight CR4 goblins would earn 8 times that amount if they succeed, they would more than likely be killed outright.

However on Amia a single 4th level character going out into the northern outskirts can usually mop up several goblin mobs at minimal risk to himself for 20xp a piece earning almost the equivalent of what he would have against a single solitary PnP goblin. Then he misclicks or isnt fast enough to click on his potion or heal kit or he gets hit with lag and whammo, dead. He doesn't want to wait for someone to wander by and tke pity on him so he respawns losing all the XP and gold just earned, minus any potions, etc used to get that far and prays he can run the gamut again now without the heal kits or find someone to come along with him to earn back what he lost.

I think what the real problems behind all this are many. Some readily apparent issues with the Amia Grind System:
1- The high availability of gold and/or magic items instead of more traditional PnP mobs and equipment.
2- The fact that there is no real fear of a PC dying permanently.
3- The low xp mobs instead of a single creature worth the same amount.

Then throw in the amazingly fast day/night cycle coupled with spell times being totally out of whack and you've got a horde of players who scurry for the top by grinding day after day, resting every 8 hours to replenish spells and grinding again instead of those who know its dangerous out there in the wild and maybe should spend a few more days resting up in an inn to regain strength or finding a healer to cure that debilitating disease.

RigorIYIortis wrote:

Take at look at this example of PnP vs Amia:

I stopped reading there.

I dont really have any strong oppinions regarding the possible exploit since I ahve never been involved with anyone doing it so far, but the statement that you loose a huge amount of XP and gold on respawn is so unrteasonable that i just have to say this: Anma has one of the lightest xp and gold penalties of all RP servers, heck, even StormNexus had harsher penalities when I played abit there. And taking into consideration how easily xp is aviable on Amia, its not really a penalty at all. Now, i ahte making comparisons to others ervers, but on The Three Kingdoms you would get dying penalties twice, on death and on respawn, and those could be as much as 30k xp for a level 30 character, on a server with 1/10 of the XP gain Amia has.

Amia is obviously not 3kds, but I just wish to put things in perspective: The respan penalty on Amia is in fact more or less non-existant, and not much to complain over.

QPR wrote:

I dont really have any strong oppinions regarding the possible exploit since I ahve never been involved with anyone doing it so far, but the statement that you loose a huge amount of XP and gold on respawn is so unrteasonable that i just have to say this: Anma has one of the lightest xp and gold penalties of all RP servers, heck, even StormNexus had harsher penalities when I played abit there. And taking into consideration how easily xp is aviable on Amia, its not really a penalty at all. Now, i ahte making comparisons to others ervers, but on The Three Kingdoms you would get dying penalties twice, on death and on respawn, and those could be as much as 30k xp for a level 30 character, on a server with 1/10 of the XP gain Amia has.

Amia is obviously not 3kds, but I just wish to put things in perspective: The respan penalty on Amia is in fact more or less non-existant, and not much to complain over.

\

Its not the respawn penalty thats the problem its the low xp gain for hours of grinding and then the slap in the face of losing it.

Low XP gain? Are we playing on the same server?

hendrack wrote:

RigorIYIortis wrote:

Take at look at this example of PnP vs Amia:

I stopped reading there.

Of course you did because you've probably never played traitional Dungeons and Dragons.

This isn't DnD, it's not NWN, it's Amia. I understand it's different, but it is a game based on DnD and the Amia admins try somewhat to make this world closer to PnP DnD. So the fact that you didn't bother reading my post only further strengthens the fact you don't understand.

Indeed, I did not bother to read further since those comparisons between Amia and PnP pop up every quarter of the year and repeating them ain't make them more valid. Presume to know what I understand or not, but the XP gain on Amia is very easy, its only a matter of your time investment. Give me and a buddy 5 days and we grind 'em both to 30 (the RP quality of such an undertaking is something different of course). If a player only "grinds" for 1 hour a week and then dies for laughable peanuts of 100/xp level, well thats bad luck, sorry.

RigorIYIortis wrote:

[...]The servers have a modified XP range based on the CR system that is vastly different from normal PnP rules. This makes it much more difficult to gain XP and level up, so the penalty imposed for a respawn is made that much worse.[...]

This is utter bull. I am sorry, but Amia is a cakewalk compared to any PnP game, whether you look at XP income, speed of levelling, or death penalties. Unless your PnP DM is a pussy, of course.

Anyway, I know this happens for quite a while now. I am just on the fence what to do: kill the exploit and make switching servers a lot less intuitive, or do nothing? In other words: let the ones that play fairly suffer for the arsiness of the few that don't, or not?

And be aware that this is an exploit. Everybody doubting that is either stupid or an ass, sorry to say so.

The problem with the majority of Persistent Worlds is the Grind. There shouldnt be one to begin with. Quests are the meat and potatoes of adventurers. Killing that boss and splitting the loot is the background for many tales. Grinding to 30 in 5 days is rediculous and shouldn't be possible.

I would say that its ridiculous how fast some people can level up. The experience is way out of hand, and the XP penalty is no match for it. People can level up in a matter of weeks with grinding, and it should take a few months, IMHO, as a pretty high reward for playing your character.

I would rather fight spawns half the size for twice the exp each and twice as powerful. That would make the game much more interesting and less grindlike.

The penalties of dying... its fricken DEATH. an END OF YOUR EXISTENCE. on amia, its more of a bad hair day type experience that can be weaseled out of by server switching and resets. The penalty should either be upped or have a limited amount of respawns and raises.

heres the main point though...
make magic unusable in starting areas. specifically spells and scrolls that raise characters.

blackvswhite wrote:

I would say that its ridiculous how fast some people can level up. The experience is way out of hand, and the XP penalty is no match for it. People can level up in a matter of weeks with grinding, and it should take a few months, IMHO, as a pretty high reward for playing your character.

I would rather fight spawns half the size for twice the exp each and twice as powerful. That would make the game much more interesting and less grindlike.

The penalties of dying... its fricken DEATH. an END OF YOUR EXISTENCE. on amia, its more of a bad hair day type experience that can be weaseled out of by server switching and resets. The penalty should either be upped or have a limited amount of respawns and raises.

heres the main point though...
make magic unusable in starting areas. specifically spells and scrolls that raise characters.

With casual play the picture becomes quite different and the XP rate and entry raises become very sane.

Let us not demand everyday dedication.

blackvswhite wrote:

I would say that its ridiculous how fast some people can level up. The experience is way out of hand, and the XP penalty is no match for it. People can level up in a matter of weeks with grinding, and it should take a few months, IMHO, as a pretty high reward for playing your character.

I would rather fight spawns half the size for twice the exp each and twice as powerful. That would make the game much more interesting and less grindlike.

The penalties of dying... its fricken DEATH. an END OF YOUR EXISTENCE. on amia, its more of a bad hair day type experience that can be weaseled out of by server switching and resets. The penalty should either be upped or have a limited amount of respawns and raises.

heres the main point though...
make magic unusable in starting areas. specifically spells and scrolls that raise characters.

Someone that gets it

Last edited by hendrack on Mon, Mar 09 2009, 21:43 PM, edited 1 time in total.

Since we now have a little cosy fugue plane -> auto respawn there. Go back to material plane -> penalties. Get raised -> no penalty.

RigorIYIortis wrote:

The problem with the majority of Persistent Worlds is the Grind. There shouldnt be one to begin with. Quests are the meat and potatoes of adventurers. Killing that boss and splitting the loot is the background for many tales. Grinding to 30 in 5 days is rediculous and shouldn't be possible.

Arabel.
Not saying you are wrong, but Amia is the way it is.

I've been saying and shoutng this intermittently in game for a long time. None of you have an excuse to be unaware of this.

And now that it's like this, i'll simply whack you for it. I didn't do anything before but warn you.

Disco has added quests, and it has been discussed that people do not often do a majority of the existing ones already, by that logic adding more would be wasted dev time. Trying to ask for a reward higher than what has been deemed acceptable already, probably also will not get one anywhere.

Grinding sucks.. so why grind? Go adventure.

Is it possible the quests can be made more visible? I'm not saying a floating yellow question mark, but say a bulletin board in the town centres that gives notes and pointers to people, places, lost dogs, cats in trees, unholy artefact of Grbblibuuz needing to be destroyed. And so on. Something we can read IC and go Oooh! I wanna do that! (with mebbe a slight hint as to rough level needed, perhaps based on the reward size offered?)

This is getting out of hand - Respawn Abusers

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