[quote="mairacle_ninja"]Just my quick view on this; Don't turn it into 'us' versues 'them'.

I agree entirely with Mairacle Ninjas post. Could not be better put.

btw: Dakotean, your Avatar is the most annoying damn thing I have ever come across. Tryin ta read a post then 'BOOM!, Head Shot!. Start reading again then BOOM! Head Shot!

LOL

Right! Here I go, then.

We'll start with the good news about Disco, then move onto the bad.

Pros: You're an extremely dedicated to Amia, moreso, perhaps, than any of the DMs or players. You're a very gifted scripter and an excellent area designer. Some of your areas, of course, lack real motivation, but as a designer myself, I know that's something entirely unavoidable, especially when you've done so many areas as you have.

Additionally, you seem to genuinely care for the well-being of Amia, as opposed to how much you can make the server "your server", and you've always been willing to let your opinion on development work take a back seat when many others prefer it another way, and you listen to the ideas of other people instead of simply doing everything your way.

Cons: You can be an arse, first off. We'll take this topic, for example. You removed the posts from another topic pointing out what someone saw as a legitimate problem because, to your mind, the other topic was much better, and because of your distaste for the topic, made it known that the topic wasn't a good one by giving it a sarcastic name. That kind of action, and that kind of post, aren't particularly uncommon from you. Generally, when you don't agree with someone, even if you may give in eventually and start listening (as you've chosen to do here), you begin with a sarcastic, snarky comment quite possibly meant to drive them off, which makes approaching you further difficult.

Additionally, as has been pointed out in the past, you have a tendency to take any dev work you don't want to do, and not only put it on the back burner, but turn off that burner's heat altogether, until enough time has gone by that either no one remembers or that you can say, "Well, it's been X months, and nothing horrible has happened, so I won't work on it." Given that the dev work is a hobby, some degree of doing what you want is very much expected, but since the hobby is done for so many people, it becomes something of a volunteer job, which requires certain less-fun things.



I could go on with pros and cons, if I had more time, but sadly, I don't. However, I do hope you'll consider those bits that I mentioned. If any of you DMs want a review, I'm happy to give one! Nekh, Kjetta, Iron! Step up!

Probably going to regret this, but sure, tear me a new one.

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To err is human; to forgive divine, but VENGEANCE IS MINE!

Kjetta! You'll have to forgive me if I don't know you as well as I know some of the other DMs, and Disco, so your's will be a bit shorter, I think!

Pros: You're a nice guy, and generally always polite, which is a highly underrated thing on these forums, which makes you more approachable than some of the other DMs. You also lack the aura of superiority that some of the DMs have, whether they try to have it or not, which similarly makes you more approachable. You're also very devoted, when it's something you're interested in, and so you can make it that much more enjoyable for people who are involved in your events, both Player and DM-side.

Cons: Like you said yourself, you DM for yourself, which is rather evident on occasion. Especially, I've noticed that you tend towards refusing to do things you're not particularly interested in doing, which is fine when you look at DMing as a hobby, but as it's more of a volunteer job, even things you're not interested in doing should be done.

Again, I don't know your DMing well enough to pick out a lot of pros or cons, which I apologize for since I mentioned you specifically by name earlier. When I get back IG during Spring Break this next week, I'll try to watch you a bit, and see if I can come up with anything else!

The pot is lying when he calls you black. You're more of a magenta.

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I have a large seashell collection which I keep scattered on the beaches all over the world. Maybe you've seen it.

As a fairly new player to Amia (not PW's mind you), I'll try offer the outside perspective, and thus insult both DM's and players in the same post. Perhaps that will glue you togheter again, against me that is.

As I see it, from browsing the forum, the two main problems are players that whine too much of various things, and DM's that give rude answers because they are tired of players that whine too much over various things. This is ofcourse not very nice to players that dont whine and get rude answers to their questions, but understandable seen from a human point of view. DM's are not worse on Amia than anywhere else, I have played on a few, but rather better on the average. Admittedly, i have not had much to do with DM's so far except maybe two encounters where I have asked for some help, but on those two questions I have gotten quick and positive responses.

My experience in general is that if you ask small, plausible and doable things of the DM's, you get your way most of the time, but it also requires enough detachment from the game to not be insulted on your characters behalf, which is one of the biggest problems with NwN in general: People get insulted on the behalf of their characters. One can go on about IC and OOC as much as one wants, but the fact is that a mjaority of players hate to loose, even IC'ly, and will take offence from it. I do that too on occasions, but i try supress it as best as I can.

So well, both players and DM's could need to ask themselves exactly why they get upset over Amia, and see wether they care too much about the game or not, and attitude on both sides can be improved.

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"Edwin do this, Edwin do that. Somebody get this jerk a banana!" - Edwin, BG II

Valygar 'Stonesnake' Stark -Human Ranger
Garret Smith - Archer and peddler of deity-statuettes
Dáin Saltbeard - Dwarven sailor and fencer. No, I'm not joking.

I've already invited anyone to approach me in PMs or, preferrably, MSN. None have, so far, but I seriously do want to talk with you players. Doing it real-time, "face to face", is way better because of the distance that comes with forum posting.

I imagine I'm one of the DMs you refer to, Metalien, because we're often at odds on the forums. I suppose I come off as arrogant and strict, but that's mostly because the forums are about serious discussion. And to me, that means academic, argumentative discussion. When a matter deserves serious discussion, I give little leeway to nonsense, and eagerly shoot down arguments that I percieve to be wrong. While there are different opinions, and everyone's entitled to their own, it's no secret that some just have shakier argumentation to support them. I like to think I never make it about the opponent's person or offend the poster, only critisize the arguments. I suppose it's in part because of personality traits, background and possibly culture (because I seem to have an understanding with Europeans more often than with Americans, but it may be coincidence), but sometimes my opponent does take things personally, or so it seems to me, while that was never my intention. In forum discussions, I demand a lot from those I converse with, but I fully expect a similar attitude towards me.

I guess I could go on and on about this, but the above wall of text is exactly why I'd prefer to discuss in private. That's how I post on forums, because that's how I believe we're supposed to post on forums. If you were referring to me in the first place, Metalien, I think you can remember that we've had quite pleasant interaction in game. I'm not a bully, even if I'm awfully serious with people who engage in a debate with me.


Feel free to post critisism to me in this topic, too. There may be things you can't/don't want to say in public, though, so do come to me directly with such issues. That goes for everyone. For once, I'll try not to point out the flaws I see in your argumentation.

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What is your MSN?

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Wyjyn: Loving all of you (and above all Disco) since 11 Jan 2007.

Oh, I thought it was in my profile.
ironangel@luukku.com

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I was banned. I'll be honest. I HATE some of the players here. Not their characters, their characters are fine. But the players, yeah, I hate some of them.

I hated [a player. Edited by: Kjetta](I put this cause I'm tired of the stupid list of supposedly "good" Rprs that left. To me, players who go OOC and degrade another persons chracter are NOT good RPrs). I won't mention any reasons why(they are numerous), but I hated him and he hated me. He hated my character and I hated his.....


....but I loved Amia.


I once thought the DMs were playing favorites.....now I realize it was the players..the DMs only go with what a majority of players will say. So if one gang of players who are chummy with each other say one new player did something bad, the DMs have no choice but to side with said group. This is especially destructive when a person is new and has no concept of screenies and such to defend themselves.


DMs are not elitist......players are, that's why all drow houses seem to have the same players in them time and time again...with a few sparse unknowns here and there.

There are DMs I dislike. Before, it was easy for me to hate them, because I felt like I was always being blamed for scenarios I actually didn't start.

At this moment I am banned. I've accepted this ban as I fully acknowledge my crime (jumping on as another character due to issues concerning another).

I thought someone switched characters to kill mines so I switched to verify if my thoughts were right (I know, looking back it is as stupid as it sounds. It's like committing murder to catch the murderer right?)

Anyhow, even after all this, I find I actually like Amia more now then before. All the players I thought to be Elitist are leaving one by one. New players who are not so Elitist are taking their place. Amia is growing older, and the players that were here when it started are leaving.

This may sound weird but I actually am beginning to like the DMs more too. Not because they are nice to me, gosh no. Anyone who's read my old posts know I have had major squabbles with DMs, over topics much like this. But because I'm beginning to understand how.....tough it must actually be managing all the people squabbling amongst each other, all the while trying to maintain a persistent world and cater to the wishes of players. Meanwhile, they can adjudicate fights(which always means at least ONE player will be unhappy, usually stating it verbally), while planning on events, THEN to have to come on these forums and put on a happy face when EVERYONE is complaining.....mind you it's more because EVERYONE has had to be the loser at least once in every arguement. I'm thinking my screaming about crap golems didn't help either.

Damn....actually looking at it like that...I can say though it took some time, the DMs have my support and my respect.


*edited* By the way...the DMs have to do ALL of the above, while not even being able to have the time themselves, to play the game we ALL enjoy and seem to have taken for granted.

I agree with most of your analysis, but I find this a bit unfair. Most of you don't even have an idea how many stuff I got on my plate and how much of it I actually fix sooner or later. I simply have never reached a point where I could say "alright, everything on the current pile has been done", and to be honest there's more on the pile than I even can (or care to) keep in mind. There's always a choice to be made, and I think my way of prioritising is both realistic and fair. Almost everybody gets a bit of my time in the end, but it will never be enough to give everybody a full service.

What I generally do is this: I focus mainly on Things to Change and Developers. This is where the real bugs often come in. Sometimes in Testers as well. The bigger the bug the higher the priority. Next to that I always have one or two projects running (these are my babies, I admit that). Once every few weeks I take a look at pending requests, stuff that DMs want or need, submitted areas, etc. Not much time left for anything else, I am afraid. My schedule also gets upset by events of various kinds, such as exploding villages or towers and Drow exodi.

You are right that certain things aren't my cuppa tea: spells, item and critter balancing. I don't understand half of the mechanics behind them, so I don't think I should do those either. That's why Terra and Uce are also Dev now.

Incidentally: Nekhy also told me this, but when I asked her what I actually ignore she could give me only one example (which was something she liked and I ditched because I didn't have a clue what to do with).

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Say 'no' to JSBF!

That doesn't neccessarily make anyone a bad roleplayer, as much as it makes him/her a complete, and utter ass.

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Profiles: DakoDako & ElWacko

Characters: Currently trying my best to stick to Beridoc Brushgale

Hell yeah it MAKES them a really damn bad RPr and a bad person as well. Not only does it ALWAYS amount to OOC metagaming hate, it is HIGHLY destructive to the game. I will tell someone if their character is cookie cutter or lacks originality and then suggest a different approach not to their character but maybe to add zest to their history.

But I WOULD NEVER EVER tell someone OOC something that would cause them to feel bad about their character creations. NO ONE has a right to do that, and if you hold a bad opinion about someone you think is jerky or you don't like their character, STAY AWAY FROM THEM AND KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT!

There are characters out there that I -HATE- but I keep it to myself for the most part, partly because I know that SOMEWHERE on the other end of that pixelated elf...is an actual live human being with thoughts and feelings.

The real problem isn't the DMs....it's the a**hole players out there that dehumanize everyone cause they can't see the hurt look on the other persons face so THAT JUST ALLOWS THEM TO BE A COMPLETE AND MONSTROUS JERK!!!!!!

Treat people as you wish to be treated, and try to understand THEIR situation, not just your own, and you'll realize as I have, that it doesn't do well to live, looking through partially closed eyes.

Sure I have a problem with you and Tormak, but talking to you about it probably wont change things, however my Email (MSN) is available to you if you want it, though you'll have to use the admin console to look for it as I dont have it showing publicly anymore.

Disclaimer: This is not meant to come across as priggish or asshatish.

Met, maybe I'm wrong in this, but it seems like you've got a very negative outlook on any talks (see: Attempts to work things out) between yourself and Tormak and/or Nekhbet.

It's a sort of "It's not going to work, but you're welcome to try." type thing, and to be quite honest, it sort of rankles and makes me wonder if you want to see things worked out at all? I know that positive thinking isn't everyone's forte, but try giving it a shot?

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Morgan Blancrest: The Rage from The Cage
Lucas Baker: Humble Swordsman
Wesley Fletcher: Greasemonkey Extraordonaire
Also known as: EmoPinata

So basically, you have a problem and you start a discussion about it, but you don't really want to talk about it to solve the problem. What do you want us to do to fix the problem you have? Can you think of a solution that doesn't require discussion to a) find out what the problem is and b) find a suitable solution if possible?

I'm not defensive, and these are not rhetorical questions. To me, your expectations just seem somewhat unfair and unrealistic, and therefore I'd like to hear your answers to understand your goal better. Granted, I'm not Nekh or Tormak, but this doesn't seem to be aimed solely at them.

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I've been just kind of reading this thread. I don't know. I'm not the end all be all smartest person in the universe but I have sort of a philosophy when it comes to things like this.

Squabbles, arguments...knowing full well that blame is rarely one sided and all I think of an Oscar Wilde quote I read.

"There is luxury in self reproach. When we blame ourselves, we feel no one else has a right to blame us.”

I've been accused of carrying too much guilt around occasionally, but it's less guilt and more...I dunno...thinking.

Like...."I'm in an argument with person A. Right now, I think they're idiots and I am correct and oppressed and downtrodden."

I step back and go..."Alright..wow..arguments stink and I dislike feeling oppressed. What would Person A. get out of making me feel this way? Not much. How was person A's day? How's their life going? Is anyone else complaining at them?"...then..ultimately..."Is there anything else I could have done, or any other way I could have reacted in order to diffuse this fight, and is it too late?"

It's usually far from too late. There's something extremely peaceful and freeing about admitting one's suckiness. The relief that comes from a "Wow this made me mad when you did that, ergo I did this...aren't we both jerks? Lol!" is priceless.

..And SO MUCH EASIER THAN BEING MAAAD.

By the way, all that inner monologue happens in my head in about 2 seconds so if we're ever in a fight don't think I'm sitting around pondering your relationship with your mother.

-La

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We are all here on earth to help others; what on earth the others are here for I don't know.

I know me and Nekh have our issues. Truthfully I'd put it all aside and now if I were to see a DM I am not so.....stand-offish. I foundered a mistrust of DMs when I first started due to an issue with playrs and a DM subsequent decisions on the matter...Now I realize of course, that someone HAD to be the loser and the needs of the many prevail over the needs of the few. At that moment -I- was the few.


However, and this is NO WAY a jab at Nekh or her work, I will stay away from Ultrinnan, not because Nekh runs it, but because I feel there is an elitism...but it doesn't involve the DMs in any way. I feel the elitism is purely player involved. I feel that the DMs...sort of...know about it, but can't do anything about it because let's face it, player friendships are encouraged.

It's okay though. With these superb lists of supposedly "great RPing" players actually leaving, it will open up more oppurtunities for us old loyal dogs and new players to take up those positions.

My only hope is that one day, all the elitist longstanding PLAYERS will one day absent Ultrinnan altogether, so that they won't constantly run out effectively 95% of the new players/characters who show up to Ultrinnan....which is WELL BUILT.

I just think it needs new leadership personally...and I'm not talking about new leadership in the form of characters or DMs....I mean those players who same name I come across and is always somehow a leader of a house or in a house.

I don't run Ultrinnan, though. Several DMs do the backuping, and it's mainly run by the players.

You've been a bit of an uncompromising jackass and headbutted with more than just a few DMs in the past, Geld. There's not been the sort of OOC shit-storms lately, though. Take this as honest positive feedback and compliment, as it's intended.

Well if we're all having a go at DMs then i'll have one too.

First off I think you guys do a great job and amia blantly would not run without all of you.

I'm sick of always seeing happy endings I would love for events to be so much more brutal instead of everything always so happy at the end.
I play one of those good guys and if theres something I love more then winning is having that darkness before the light.
If I was to be so bold I might say the DMs are afraid to do this alot of the times because it might upset the players.
A couple of times i've been beaten down by DMs and I was all bummed about it but couple of hours later I was like Man thats Brutal.

Guess what i'm failing to say is I would love to see much more brutal events i've had far to many events where the monster turns out to be a friendly misunderstood being.

Its time for you to kick our arses

Unhappy endings would be very lovely to see more, but they often end up in OOC shit-storms and the DM running the event getting flogged by players.

You have to be a masochist to try another one after the first time you get a negative response from the players involved. Or be very selective of your players.

Ask the guys from Altnernative Beginnings about brutal!



The next one will be worse, as it includes the chance of perma death.

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To err is human; to forgive divine, but VENGEANCE IS MINE!

That butt cheek is also pretty brutal.

HURT ME.

Wait...Cerri's singing for THAT?

yesyesyesyesyesyes

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We are all here on earth to help others; what on earth the others are here for I don't know.

Dual problem;
first side: Amian players are too fucking spoiled and whiny bitches.

At least, we act like it, complaining at every possible thing to complain about and more.
Reason:
- Partly the easiness of the server, I guess. Nothing bad can happen to any character ever if it's unwanted. If you'd not have 100% control on that you'd at least learn to bit the dust every now and then and be less offended or shocked when you do bite said dust.
- Partly the way the DM's/Dev team has been catering us with all our needs, which also related to the previous part.
- Partly the general attitude which spreads over to other players. Negativity and other feelings can spread, through gossip for example, but also through jealousy of other players/happenings/... And negative feelings are easier to take a grip on someone then positive ones.

Second problem: some DM's have their head up their ass too far and, imo, should take a break until they can start acting with more respect to players again and keep their cool under (nearly) any situation (that last is what makes you a good DM, and one of the reasons i would suck at being one tbh, and if you no longer can do it you should take the break I mentioned)

I've only ever had a real problem with two, but set that partly behind me, as it's not that important + part of it was because i was infused by that negativism i talked about in my first point.
I say partly as I am still bothered by their way of handling stuff sometimes.
I was going to post the specifics but I guess they know who they are anyway, so I decided not to. If not, DM's can request in PM/MSN.

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Click here for the navis & lukavi portraitpacks preview & download.

Lo and behold Amians, take note of this. I usually don't post on such tinder aka flame-fodder as this, but it's a blue moon out.... not really.

Firstly, unless you've put on the big-boy pants and actually dm'ed worth of hoot anywhere, please remove your head from your rectal cavity before you judge them too harshly on a job you've never had, nor been asked to hold.

Secondly, DM's have their own flavor, wants, wills, and ideas. Stop treating them like some freakin' sort of computer into which you punch whatever the freak you want and expect "X" to happen. If 99.997% of Amia's DM's want to have whatever quest they've so happily bestowed on you end up with everyone all cuddly and hugging a bunny, then dammit, suck it up, change your diaper, and deal with it. If you don't like happy endings, then hey, here's and idea, do some blinkin' "quests" yourself without waiting on a DM to make one. Some PC's unfortunately percieve that RP can only happen in the presence of a DM, at the end of which they are somehow entitiled to any thing more than a "Good Job".

That, or apply to become a DM and be the most hellish, horrific, S.O.B you feel like in the way you handle -your- stories. Until then, if you think they're handling is "Too Hard" or "Too Easy", or "Wah, wah wah", swallow yer pride, and be thankful that someone else actually even cared how -your- game went at all.

The complaining isn't the problem. It's more the attitude people have towards our DMS, like they actually owe them something more besides mutual respect. I for one feel that the DM's do a great job, and have done ever since I began playing 3 years ago here. I think they have good ideas, are very receptive, and even when I dead, flat-out don't agree with them in terms of whatever, I still respect them deeply, and even deeper enough apparently to not join in a forsaken bashfest on people who are taking time out of their playing time to make other people's games more enjoyable.

I've DMed pnp before. Certain days, yeah, it'll all be rainbows and bunnies and kisses/huggles/giggle-poke. Other days, maybe I was feeling a bit darker, realistic, or whatever the heck I had for breakfest that moring. The RP relationship between PC and DM is a give-and-take one. Like dancers, one leading, the other following. My players quite often set the agenda for the day. I was merely their to see to it that the "Laws of the Universe" and whatnot were in order to acurately reflect how whatever situation they found themselves in worked out. I had RP ideas too. Some I already had in mind, some that I made up on the fly. For the ideas that the PCs didnt seem too enthusiatic about and found they'd rather not do, I didn't take it personally, and the beat went on.

It takes a damn big person to be so flexible to other's ideas. Respect a DM for that.

Unless a DM is violating some supermundo-huge server rule or acting like an ass (which Ive never found the Amian DMs to remotely resemble), then there's no fire to be had.

Now if you'd rather sit around as a PC whining at the DMs about what you think is right, flying off with the other 50 PCs to see that a DM has moved a cat (which undoubtedly is a sort of "Quest"), and then run off to a corner to cry and piss yourself to sleep cuz it didnt go your way, then so be it. Either way, don't be so judgemental on people who are just as human as you are. Except Disco....cuz he be a chicken, and what not.

Edit:

As a chaser to that, as I'm now a bit cooler-headed, I still have respect for players who feel differently than me. Ive seen valid stuff all around. I just hate to see folks leave or bash -any- server/group over percieved flaws, when it's really just people, namely the dms, doing the best they can.

Well, I think Khylaria is the DM that I have listen more good things about, from everyone I spoke about DMs. No one has nothing bad to say about her at all.

Kjetta is nice for creating things for us to do. I like his ideas and I have heard some good things from other people about him as well.

Most of the others are friendly with me, are good rpers and I had a good time playing in game with them, or had no problems when asking things to them. Mahtan is cuddly and I really like him, he is very respectful, so is his sister. They are people that know how to treat people, I dont know about if he favor friends or not, I heard about it, and I was actually meh when I heard it, because I think he is nice and was always nice to everyone around him. At least on his characters, I never know when he is on DM side, cause I keep forgetting what Avatar each DM use.

However, the problems of privileges to friends seem to be one of the main critics I hear, also grunges against players.

Some DMs have friends that play in Amia and by default they will pay attention on those friends more. I have even get more DCs when around some people than around many others. So, some players are DC attractors and doesn't matter if other players are as good in role play as those, these ones do get loads of dcs. I have also listened complains that some people have to request once for things, while others have more difficulty.

I think it is natural to pay more attention to people we like, to see what they are up to and such, but not always fair. I don't mind myself, but I have listened too many complains about protectionism.

A couple of DMs are rude. I wont say names, they know they are rude. I don't know if it is their nature, if they are fed up with some players, or if they think some players are just plain bad rpers. But, they pick on people and have grunge and it affect on the way they judge things, the same thing would be acceptable to one but not to another. They can rant a lot. But, this couple of DMs can vary from player to player too. Some people will say a couple of DMs and will be talking about different DMs that I am.

Another complaint is how some DMs destroy RP in spite of creating it. That they intervene when they don't have too and do not act when they suppose to. That their mind are too set in a way of thought, and they don't allow people the freedom to do their own things or if they do their own thing they get or ranted at or completely ignored on their rp. I could give examples, but if I do I will be naming people and dang, I will be banned again or getting DM against me and I don't really want it, since the critics were not even mine.


In the overall, maybe we all should ask ourselves how I could do better. Dms and players. How to improve Amia experience to everyone? Is this that I am saying or doing fair? *shrugs* I think friends are better than foes in an ooc lvl. IC, both are good and welcomed

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Signature by Qualiz

Del's Characters Entry - Amiawiki.

Sorry, but as a player who's run a faction for the better part of the years I've spent on Amia, I kinda take a little bit of offense at this.

I've always taken time to OOC'ly educate new drowsies on IC behavior and drow tradition. As for the 95% of new players/characters that get run out... well, I'd say a vast majority of those players don't want to have their characters conform to drow society.

Are the drow factions elitist? I can't really speak for the others, but mine isn't. Yeah, some players have multiple players in a faction, but I constantly strive to bring new players in and have no problem with having players with characters in other drow factions having a character in mine.

If everyone tells you that your shirt is black and you think you're shirt is grey... well, you may want to look a little closer at your shirt. Get my point?

P.S. ~ As I think about it more, I don't even recall you and I having much, if any, IC interaction. Which makes me wonder why you make such blanket statements.

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"I once took the high road and it took me straight to hell and I stood there all by myself." -Hank III

Yep, damn straight I blame the player leaders, and I'm not sorry to tell you Ainjyll that if you take offense then do better not to make people feel that way. There's no way anyone would ever convince me that most of the drow houses are always made up of primarily the same players.

All the houses are primarily the same players shuffling around, in essence, and don't tell me it ain't like that...cause it is.

And before I blamed the DMs but honestly I get sick of seeing the same damn players being leaders of multiple factions at different times. I am GLAD AND ECSTATIC that Do'veldran is gone and the leader left. When I return my character will literally break his own back jumping up for joy.

And really I don't care who hates me for it....sorry. The leaders and positions of authority in Ultrinnan(and I mean playerwise) CHOSE NOT to turn a blind eye to some males blunder. CHOSE NOT to let some male have a shred of arrogance. CHOSE NOT to allow a sufficient number of other drow into Ultrinnan without finding some flaw, some mistake, some manner of grievance, some excuse to do harm.

And MIND YOU it's not just males of Ultrinnan. A large number of OOC fights concerning IC Matron unseatings and such. Large blundering Matron meetings full of OOC nonsense, where the DM becomes more a mediator and less a silent witness and provider enjoyment.

And "as a player who's runs a faction(actually you ran factions) for the better part of the years on Amia", you can tack yourself on the list above, because Bree'nye isn't on very often anyways, the explanation for us hardly ever seeing each other.

*edited* By the way, if anyone even thinks of telling me, "why didn't you try to be a matron then, blah blah blah" I'll tell you it's because even to be a matron, you'd need followers, and followers are hard to find when the only ones about are the same elitist players I have a problem with, and any new players or characters not ingratiated into this inner circle of wrongness somehow always seem to find themselves being called heretics.

See how it works? The player base does run Ultrinnan.....unfortunately the players down there are a bunch of elitist self serving players, who have exclusive control over Ultrinnan through multiple characters. The only way for it to stop is for a WHOLE NEW GROUP of PLAYERS to go down there and form their own elitist group, in which case we'd be as bad as they.

Yup I know what you mean so that being said players need to mature so come on guys



Come on i've already told you I love your brutal way of handelling things.



Go mess up a faction. Destroy their home or put them in danger give them the risk of losing something important then see how the leaders act. (Christmas wish one)

What? I can count the number of people who I've made feel bad on this server on one hand. I pride myself on being one of the nicer drow players, both IC and OOC.



Sure... to a certain degree. There are a base of drow players. Just like a base of hin players, elf players, etc.



Ummm.... isn't that what drow are supposed to do? You listed a basic list of DO NOT DO in drow culture. Males being arrogant to females? Bad idea. Being obviously flawed? Considered weakness... showing weakness is a bad idea. Some excuse to do harm to a rival? Why do I even need an excuse? They're a rival.


An unfortunate necessity, I agree. But I have a simple question. If you're not the player of the matron being unseated or even a matron at all, what do you care about the meetings and such that only involve matrons and other faction leaders?



First and foremost, it's against server rules to run multiple factions at once. Secondly, I've only ever run Tinnerai. Saying that I've run other factions just shows that you obviously don't know what you're talking about. Thirdly, just because we don't see each other doesn't mean I'm not on... ever think that maybe we run on different schedules... or perhaps are in different time zones?



This is beginning to sound like the rantings of a person who's become jaded at something and is looking for someone to blame.


And Winya... and Tarkuul..... and the list can go on and on....



This last bit kinda puts your argument a little over the edge...

You want to talk about elitist? How about someone who rants and rambles about how elitist everyone else is and how OOC they just suck and that they really need to change their ways... or better yet, just leave.

That to me seems pretty elitist. As I said earlier... please, take a moment to look at your posts and analyze what you're actually saying. You've now pointed your finger at the whole server without really taking any blame on yourself.

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"I once took the high road and it took me straight to hell and I stood there all by myself." -Hank III

Geld, Aynjill, if you have specific issues with each other, please take it to PMs, despite the name of the topic.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

*shuts up*

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"I once took the high road and it took me straight to hell and I stood there all by myself." -Hank III

Sorry, there's only so much danger that can be allowed. Plus no matrons are on often enough to notice losses. I used to play in Ultrinnan in one form or another and I've noticed things haven't changed at all.


It's frustrating to me because the DMs did make the place look nice, and Ultrinnan truly has potential to be ripe with genuine and good RP...even if it doesn't end well, and yet...what is there? Mundane sacrifices? God gaming know-it-alls? Power trippers?

When I first started to play, I wanted to make an impact on amia, but also to help make it better, to add a more mature level of intrigue, because when I started I believed it existed in Ultrinnan. What I found is a bunch of powerbuilding, bullies, intent on outing me from their secret playground of cybering and false accussation made true based on OOC opinions of characters and/or players.

My first posts ranted on an Empty Ultrinnan and other posts about how bad Ultrinnan was. I kind of blamed it on the DMs because I figured they picked these drow leaders who then picked their OOC friends as housemates. But really what happened was a bunch of *explenetives* pretty much took over Ultrinnan...and they've been running it ever since. The DMs sided with them because they weren't really breaking any rules, but honestly they are ruining a nice looking Ultrinnan to almost nothing and they won't be missed.

I don't know how to convey that I don't enjoy posting this without saying I'm sorry. I don't apologize for posting in this way but something has to be said and in actuality I really don't enjoy saying it. I'm not saying that EVERY new player is drummed out....just A LOT....and that's a lot too many.

By the way this is mainly for Ultrinnan Houses. The other factions throughout Amia are fine.

*PS* I'm not saying EVERYBODY is the problem, with the server for those who wish to put words in my mouth, I feel I stated it clearly enough without the need for word games and double worded back talk.

I actually have the exact opposite experience. 95% of the players I regularly RP with are DMs. Robert, Chiania, Tormak, and Ron are OOC friends of mine.

I RP with them pretty much every time I log in, and I have never received a DC from any of them, save for maybe once or twice, when I happened to stumble into one of their events. DMs are often so afraid of showing "favoritism" that they don't give DCs to their friends even when they might deserve them, to avoid being perceived that way, and in Ron's case, don't give DCs playerside at all. That doesn't bother me at all personally; DCs are nice little treats, nothing more. They're not the reason I play.

I've found DMs to be incredibly fair in their distribution of DM time, and go out of their way oftentimes to treat everyone equally. I've seen claims of favoritism, but never in more substantial forms than the occasional unsupported cry from the masses or random floating rumors. If you hear something like that, tell the parties involved to bring it to Nekh, instead of propagating something that could very well be a misconception, or complete fabrication. That's what she's here for, after all.

(edited for a random hanging sentence)

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I RP'd with Chiania(Nakomis) alot. We had great RP and I only received like maybe one or two DCs from him/her(not sure actually). And yet the story of RP did span some IRL time.

Okay, I considered making a separate thread for this but it probably belongs here.

I have to say right away that I'm not involved in any circles, IC or OOC. I've been at best a here-and-there NWN player for a while now, more likely to read the forums than to actually log in to play. I used to put in ridiculous amounts of time into this game. My first and longtime NWN home was another server entirely that had its' time when it would be packed, it was considered a more hardcore rp server but allowed players to mostly play as they saw fit given whatever mood struck them on a given day.

I've been a NWN dm on two PW servers, combined it's in the years and that's not including any other projects I've done which are several. So seeing the dm team's side of things isn't hard, if anything I'm seeing very similar cycles of ebb and flow here which doesn't surprise me in the least. Proverbial dead horses to be beaten upon. Many other posts say things I won't repeat here in detail... I'll list them off for emphasis though:

- DMs are people. Players are people.
- Players often have little or no perspective in what a dm/dev's experience can be like.
- A lot of DMs start dm'ing wanting to make players ingame lives more fleshed out and enjoyable.
- A lot of players take their own initiative and create plots/adventures without any dm input or aid.
- A lot of players have a Jekyll and Hyde response while in game, will play one way when they think it's just them, and completely change if they think a dm is watching or if they get involved in a quest/event.
- Forums are often places filled with negativity and complaints. It's the nature of forums and many games that this is so, and likely will never change.
- DMs often have seen many proverbial dead horse discussions and it can tire them out to have to respond to each one of them as if it's the first time it's ever come up. They can and unfortunately do respond in tones that aren't as tactful as they could.
- Players can and unfortunately do act like complete spoiled children sometimes, justified or not.
- Players get discouraged when things don't work out for them.
- DMs/Devs get discouraged when their work doesn't work out the way they hoped.
- DMs by very virtue of what they are given for responsibilities have to give out judgements or penalties to players and this means not being nice all the time.
- Both sides experience burnout after having to endure too much disappontment.
-Communities do see people come and go for a horde of various reasons.


The thing that struck me and motivated me to actually log in and post was seeing the staff here invite criticism upon itself, and even go as far as to criticize each other here openly on the forums. This is something I don't think I've ever seen before that didn't result in locking, deleting, banning <insert bad thing here>. I was and am somewhat stunned by this.

Whatever the issues are IC and OOC between players and dms here, well... something I've come to believe is that the more someone enjoys a game, the more emotionally connected they become to it, the more likely they'll take things badly if things <insert whatever here, forum activity, ingame stuff, etc> happen. It's very human and actually predictable that this happens. It's almost worse for everyone involved if there is no reaction, this points to a lack of caring or involvement. Double edged sword like so many things in life.

The open flaming and invitation to do so has immeasurably increased my respect for the team here. Honestly.. they already had my respect just because of what they do. It's frickin hard, keeping the creativity flowing ingame to do events, trying to adjust knowing that yes; it's likely that unless it's a happy-for-all ending (which is usually not realistic, and often goes against creating the sort of tension-release that results in great endings) that someone somewhere is going to be put out and po'd. That sucks. Then coming to the forums and being bashed.. yep that sucks, doesn't help the creative juices either. DMs/devs take a lot of abuse and usually it's good for them to take breaks to be able to come back to things fresh and positive.

If you're a player who doesn't have experience on this side of the fence.. it's what you might imagine but multiplied exponentially. Players don't see the stress the staff put on themselves as a group and individually, or the disappontment when a complex plot they've worked hard on turns into a fetch and grab because the players you've involved only respond to blunt obvious 'hints' or direction when optimally they should be putting as much input into said event as the dm, giving the dm material to bounce off of.

There is the flipside of course: DMs get to see the positive fruits of their work, get to see players enjoy themselves from an overall perspective that's difficult for the players to see. It's not all bad. I enjoyed DMing so much I almost disappeared as a player entirely, and gave the impression I was one of those long standing players who had left. I never meant to do this and learned the hard way why the team I was working with actually had a rule that dms still take time to play.

I could go on, but seem to already have done so. Yes I know.. blahblah blah... I'm long winded by nature and I know it. Guess what it comes down to is repeating the bit about some new found respect for the staff here. I consider myself pretty jaded but saw something very new happen here and I wonder if anyone else sees this too. I don't mean to bash the players views, just that most of this I've seen countless times.. it's all valid, players are what drives a community and the lack of them are what caused some places I miss very much to not be active anymore.

Very tempted to take Disco up on msn conversations but I'm thinking it's better for the community that time be spent supporting the regulars here. I've even considered applying for a dm position.. I miss it terribly, it's like being a director in a movie but the actors do random things that can take things to whole new levels (conversely ruin them, but I like to think it's generally not intentional) but my views are more hardcore roleplayer oriented and I'm not sure that would really benefit people here. Blahblahblah again... but hey, the invitation to discuss things in realtime = very appreciative of this, also not commonly seen.


I just wish people could see both sides more often. It's easy for players to assume a lot about staff.. easy too for the staff to sometimes forget what it's like to be just a player.

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"Faith is the truth of passion."

"Not all those who wander are lost."

That is good to know that your experience differ from what people say. I personally want dcs because I dont hunt bosses, I dont have the patience for it. I rather do something else, since I already hunt enough leveling my characters, I have no money on my characters besides my merchant and it is very difficult for me to get anything without being by DCs. Now I also need DCs for my fey and such. So, for me they are not a treat, they are the only way I have to get anything without having to farm every time I log. My rp takes loads of time. But, I do get a fair amount of DCs and I cannot complain. I know Yaston for being the political engaged player he is gets loads of them and all deserved. But, this topic is to say what is wrong with the DM team, and since I talk to loads of people, I am expressing the things I hear most.

I only had one problem with one DM once, it was WonWon and we bashed at each other in the forums when I had it and I got banned and now it is part of the past. Sometimes I get mad at the way Tormak answer to some of my things. But, right now I learned to just pfffft him and let it pass, it is Tormak, he wont change and I wont change, so gotta live with it.

Sometimes I get mad with the DMs that bash social role players, because sometimes we that have social characters among our more politicized ones and the stigma of *huggle RP* just hurt everything we do, it is like even if my cleric is not a social being or Alynne is a political War knight and trader and even Delarwyn is someone that fights for Drow rights in the surface, all of it is shoved inside the carpet because I have the stigma of being a "huggle rper". That pisses me off, I wish my characters would be taken more seriously. I dont live in Cordor with all my characters. Arielle avoids Cordor most of the time, my tiefling is almost never there. Alynne is there because she is a merchant, Delarwyn is known figure in the square and she is my most huggable character, followed by my fey that is a bard and is where people are. But, it is all ignored, every deeper thing of my character is usually ignored because of the stigma. So, that is my only complain really.. And I dont know even if I can blame DMs for it, because players see me in the same way as well. Maybe because I am social and I talk a lot in the forum and in game and because I am in Delarwyn a lot because of Niss'assa. But, honestly we social rpers can be quite deep too..

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Del's Characters Entry - Amiawiki.

What do the DMs owe us? They're the ones who work on this server with no pay and a lot of stress.

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Technology, no matter how simple, is magic to all those who do not understand it. ~ Florence Ambrose

Well... how much is a conductor worth without an orchestra? What's the use of a cinema without an audience?

Hint: About as much as a DM without players.

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Say 'no' to JSBF!

I agree, but they do this for the reason of having fun with it, they like doing it, I wish we could pay for their service, but I know they enjoy it. I know several that would be DMs too. So, yeah, that is not a reason to be mean or anything.

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Del's Characters Entry - Amiawiki.

You heard the lady! Cough up that cash!

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I have a large seashell collection which I keep scattered on the beaches all over the world. Maybe you've seen it.

I completely agree with this, especially the powerbuilding. At first I played a Cyrist Cleric that went around and did his business, y'know, there was eventually a conflict with a guy made for PVPing people. I nearly killed him alongside my buddies, and he magically pulled out another weapon and dev critted me within the second. He then proceeded to kill/raise me 3 times. Why? I dunno, but the conflict was started by him summoning monsters and putting me on hostile so they would try and kill me for no reason.

You can't face off against a powerbuilder with any kind of normal build. Powerbuilding is like required if you want to win any kind of PVP battle, which is absolutely required if you want to make any kind of difference in the server RP-will.

If you want to know about people being shi.t-heads OOC, I agree with the entire thing on them. People have told my buddy to 'never RP with them again' in tells because he did some unfavorable RP for them such as a simple insult. Dunno about you, but some players need to wake up and realize that NWN ain't life, its a game.

DMs should chill, really. I don't think yer getting paid for being a DM, after all, DMing is fun and voluntary.

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If you have legitimate issues about the faction leaders in Ultrinnan then bring it up with them in PMs or go straight to the DMs. Slandering us on the forums only makes you look like a troll.

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Characters:
Ilphdiira - Arch Priestess of Lolth
Nad'olil d'Tinnerai - Drow Assassin
Izzmyr Tinnerai - Drow Illusionist
Gul'dax Kil'ani - House Archmage of Kil'ani
Fil'uth - Drow Warrior

Incorrect. I assure you, Mynna and Yurioji are as far from a traditional "powerbuild" as you could get, as was Alanna Molov at the time. Yossarin is a pathetic pissant of a build that manages to scrape by on "Gear + Bard 30". Though it was more of a "group effort", there were a lot of people involved in the Ne'sek plot and the Wyrmhold plot who were not powerbuilds, but certainly made a difference.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

What would people like us to do, in regards to rules enforcement?

On one hand, you want us to chill. We should be more concerned about people having fun than enforcing rules. Ok, this is reasonable, and that's what we're meant to be doing. But when we come-across rule-breaking, what should we do?

If we cut people some slack, we will be rightfully accused of inconsistency and (probably less rightfully) favoritism. If we enforce rules equally for everyone, as we try to do currently, we're said to take things too seriously.

Is the consistent, even-handed rules enforcement the problem, or is it the rules themselves that are percieved too severe? After all, if we cut slack for one person and not the other, we are simply unjust. If we start cutting slack equally for everyone, we're exactly as even-handed and "strict" as we are now, only dealing lesser punishment or enforcing looser rules. This new standard of "cutting some slack" would become the norm for rules enforcement, and soon we'd be asked to cut some more slack, "because it's just a game."

So in regards to us being hard-as[size=0].[/size]ses, what is it exactly that we should do different?

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O, I think we are all very consistent:

* Be hard-ass on people I don't like
* Don't be hard-ass on people I like

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Say 'no' to JSBF!

Dagesh

He made mystra's monolith and the new market hall then left for another server.

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"When somebody headbutts, everybody looses."

Might I add that I tend to think Ky'irael, my main, made at least a little bit of a difference, and for the majority of the plot he was from level 8-22, and a lot of the stuff he did was at level 8, so no. You don't need to be level 30 and a powerbuild to make a difference.

I'll second that with Carter.

I think that if you treat everyone evenly with the same set of mind following clear rules that everyone know, no one should be complaining about it. Also the way you do the rule enforcing counts, if you can come down on people in a nice way until the person treats you with disrespect that would work as well.

Harsh is coming with irony and make someone feel small. Harsh is to bash around in a bad mood and negative insights that hurt people that wants to play and be happy and many times these people are having really crap lives and use amia as a source of some thing good and get here to deal with rant and bad retort.

Not saying you do that Iron. Just answering it in a more broad way you know?

Most of the people I meet in game I meet oocly after a while and so many of them have a tough life. I wish I could do many things to help them, but dang, we are all around the world and the only thing I can do is to be a friend. So, that is what I ask, remember that some of the players need amia for their own ability to continue to cope with life. It is not a game only, it is a place where you find friends, it is a place where you can smile and ignore that your parents sucks, that your health sucks, that your girlfriend is just being a horrible bitch, that you feel lonely, that you dont know what to do with yourself. Amia is for many players I know a way of socialization, a route to happiness, a place where they can be themselves even if dressed in a character and not to be judged by it. I am not saying that everyone is like that, or that most people is like that, but many people are and they tend to get hurt easily.

So you can enforce the rules, but make them as clear as possible and when you need to call someone out for breaking them, do it as respectful as possible. If you do it, You will be fine.

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Del's Characters Entry - Amiawiki.