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Shade of Blue

Posted: Thu, Mar 05 2009, 17:11 PM

Player

Joined: 06 Aug 2008

How about this gets closed before it turns into the same bullshit?

xordae

Posted: Thu, Mar 05 2009, 17:15 PM

Player

Joined: 01 Jul 2005
Location: Germany

No one forces you to read threads you don't like. That all is well in Flowerkingdom is not everyone's perception apparently, and that is why this thread is here.

Shade of Blue

Posted: Thu, Mar 05 2009, 17:18 PM

Player

Joined: 06 Aug 2008

But there's already a thread full of the same crap.

ainjyll

Posted: Thu, Mar 05 2009, 17:27 PM

Player

Joined: 14 Jun 2006
Location: wilmington, nc

I won't say that the DM quality is degraded or that Amia itself has degraded. Because it hasn't. Amia is a persistent world. It's modeled after a strange, fantastic, imaginary version of a real world. In the real world we have authority figures (policeman, judges, bosses, teachers, etc.), in Amia we have DMs. In the real world our circle of friends rotate and change constantly due to changing jobs, moving and even death (unfortunately

). Amia has players who leave.

In RL, you have to adapt and change to your surroundings or you can curl up in a ball of self-pity and die. Amia is no different. When players leave they take their characters with them. As another player, you can either have your characters curl up in a ball and go out with them or they can move on and bring new characters into their circle of friends. The choice is up to the players.

There is a constant shift of interpretation of the law going on. Every time the Supreme Court sees a case there is a chance that the interpretation of the law that case is concerned with will change. It's exactly the same on Amia. As new DM's come to power, rules and such will be interpreted differently. New laws are made and old ones disposed of every year. It's part of living in a non-static enviroment.

As anyone that knows me IG knows, I've pretty much only played drow. When I first came to Amia there were 4 drow houses.

Vandree
Arabett
Do'Veldran
Fuma'Vhid

Are any of those 4 left? No. Some of the players still are (Phearnun jumps to mind first), but the factions have completely changed. I've seen good RP'ers get the boot for repeatedly breaking rules (Redfren for example) and I've seen good RP'ers move on to be DMs (Iron Angel and Hollowdreams come to mind first). I've seen players just outgrow Amia and move on with their lives (Kullevro for example). There are players who I love RP'ing with and have stuck around (Layil and Shattered Gem especially). There are new players that I've found that are quite good (silknilithus [or however you spell it, Arith Kil'ani], Iteries, the list goes on and on).

I was sitting down with a friend of my father's a long, long time ago and he was talking about some of the things he'd seen in Vietnam. I had to ask him how he dealt with seeing those types of things and with a small laugh he told me something that I think is very appropriate here and in life as well. He told me:

"When something bad happens to you, you have two options. Get over it or die."

_________________

"I once took the high road and it took me straight to hell and I stood there all by myself." -Hank III

krytellan

Posted: Thu, Mar 05 2009, 18:32 PM

Player

Joined: 05 Jun 2006

I will say that since I never really get ingrained into any one clique, I see nothing different. The only thing that has bothered me over the last 6 months is the increasingly aggressive tone of a segment of the DM team. From where I'm sitting, it looks like burnout, but I'll leave the psycho babble for my clients.

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Uberuce

Posted: Thu, Mar 05 2009, 18:40 PM

Player

Joined: 11 Nov 2005
Location: Near the bar.

Dev Disco wrote:

I don't want to be an ass here, but how often did you post you had enough of it, Metallien? I also know you complain a lot about other players. For me that makes it rather hard to look at your post with an unbiased view. I just think "O, well, is it that time of the month again?".

This. I'm a weee ickle tiny bit of a slob, and are rarely up to date on my half of the housework, so when my sister(also my flatmate) comes in from work, I can tell her day's been stressful because she can't believe just how filthy and revolting the flat is, and how much of a scumbag I am and how close she is to killing me in my sleep.

This is, of course entirely independent of the actual state of the flat. If she's had a good day at work, it's fine: maybe, next time you're taking a break from the game, you could clear those dishes? Floor needs done too. Ach, no, it can wait till tomorrow.

It doesn't just apply to Metalien, though. There's a few players, not all of whom have posted in this thread, that exhibit the same phenomenon.

Ramika

Posted: Thu, Mar 05 2009, 18:44 PM

Player

Joined: 30 Aug 2006
Location: Oregon, USA

Egads. Another topic like this.

Okay. Feel free to call me a DM arse-kiss or whatever, but honestly, I don't have any problem with the team whatsoever. Even with certains one, who are infamous for pissing people off (and has done so to me in the past, but I got over it). It's easy to whine and moan about how unfair the DMs are and how they don't treat the player populace fairly ... but how many of you know how stressful it is to DM on a server with almost 95 people on at any given time? It was easier when Amia was smaller, I'd bet. But now they have to try and separate their time between -two- servers, the demands of more people. You get my point. They can't cater to everyone. It's just not possible. Not to mention, some of them aren't lore monkies, or prefer to DMs for certain areas (like Nekh prefers Drow. Sorry Nekh! First example I could think of), or are still learning the ropes.

Over the years, I imagine a lot of behind the scenes things have happened that have caused players to leave that the general populace don't know about. How many of you know why some of the players listed left? And I mean really know? Generally, from what I've scene, the most common case is a player screams, "Injustice" at something, pouts, and leaves. All we ever get are single-sided stories, second hand evidence, and pissed off players because something happened that they can talk about but generally, the DM team can't because, honestly, it's not anyone's business but the person who's angry and the DM(s) who dealt with it. This is how the DM team gets a bad name. Yeah, we've all had bad experiences with a DM in the past, even me. But, generally, the good outweighs the bad ... so why is everyone focusing on the bad?

Amia is a roleplay server for everyone. It kills the fun and the enjoyment if people are running around on edge, bitching about the team, complaining something isn't good enough. It's easy to do that when you're not the one doing it, isn't it? Kind of like how a lot of American's whined about President Bush. Yeah. I agree. He was kind of an idiot. But, being president isn't exactly kindergarten. It's hard work that most of us can't even imagine.

This isn't about poor DMship. It's about personality clashes and disagreements. You expect the worst, you're going to get the worst. You can't expect a DM to work their ass off to prove you wrong if they know you're expecting them to screw up. That's extremely unfair on everyone's part.

People are going to leave for whatever reasons they choose. Frankly, if you don't like it here anymore and find it 'deteriorating,' then stop playing. We're never going to know the whole story on anything, we're all going to disagree, and it's not right to start attacking people who are likely frustrated as all hell because you disagree or don't like something in particular. Yeah, the DMs can sometimes come across as extremely caustic on this forum. But, do you guys ever remember that it's text and that sometimes, that's not how something was meant at all? And the DM team aren't the only ones guilty of acting like arrogant bastards who think they know everything. I've seen players do it too. This isn't one sided.

You have a disagreement, do what is suggested and take it to that DM. If that doesn't work, Nekhy. That's why that system is set up. So buck up, move on, or quit. Stop making one problem everyone's when it could be dealt with in a much better manner.

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Logins: Ramika, Li'lMikachu

Wyjyn

Posted: Thu, Mar 05 2009, 19:14 PM

Player

Joined: 11 Jan 2007

So you think the American public should stop being so critical of their political leaders?

In my experience with the DMs, the good does not outweigh the bad. Plenty of people have stressful jobs, to compare the DMs task to the stress of pretty well any random real life job is a stretch at the least. Also, your argument sucks because it has a logic loop in it. You say "why dont you try and see how easy you find it?", however if we did do that or tried to (as miselle did before he left) we would get the instant "don't apply for DM" or "saying you could do better than us is a sure way not to be given a chance to DM". Which backs up the point I am making, the DMs job is only so stressful because it is taken sooo seriously. Like if the rules of amia arent enforced something really bad will happen. I often wonder how the DMs think the server is when there are no DMs on lol.

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Wyjyn: Loving all of you (and above all Disco) since 11 Jan 2007.

Kjetta

Posted: Thu, Mar 05 2009, 19:21 PM

Player

Joined: 11 Nov 2006
Location: A Clean, Well-Lighted Place

DM stress is stress in your spare time that you get little in return for, and is therefore more annoying than work stress, of which I, and most other DMs, have plenty.

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To err is human; to forgive divine, but VENGEANCE IS MINE!

Carter

Posted: Thu, Mar 05 2009, 19:28 PM

Player

Joined: 15 Aug 2005

The Golden Gnome wrote:

It's a bit elitist to claim that they aren't as good as the rest of us.. Heck, I was a terrible RP'er at first. Still am, according to some :'-D

An awful RPer, in fact, my lad!

Anyway, it's just a fact that some people are better RPers than others. The "best" RPers are of course subjective, but there is a degree of objectivity. I don't think, for instance, that anyone would say that Yossarin is an excellent RPer. Some would say he's the best RP because of his intricate, emotional, and beautifully-written texts, while others might remove him from "best" for a similar reason: that he tends to take a very long time to write things. I don't think anyone, however, would call him anything resembling a "bad roleplayer".

On the other side of that, I don't think anyone would say that the guy who runs into Cordor naked saying "i hate u u stoopit noob i am a hier lvl then u" is a good roleplayer. Past that, however, it's subjective. I might not put some cuddle-snugglers on my Top 10 RPers list, while someone else might have all cuddle-snugglers in their Top 10 RPers list.

Terra_777

Posted: Thu, Mar 05 2009, 19:37 PM

Administrative Developer

Joined: 31 Jan 2007
Location: Sweden

RP is what you make it to be. If you let your RP get bothered because people can't type more then oneliners. To bad for you! Maybe if you spend more time RPing yourself then being oocly jiffered about how others RP's out their characters.

Good RP is RP that draws everyone and everything into a rhythmical mass of funnyness.

There is only good RP and RP, there is no bad RP.

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Fear is not evil… It tells you what your weakness is. And once you know your weakness, you can become stronger as well as kinder. - Gildarts Clive, Fairy Tail, Hiro Mashima.

Yossarin

Posted: Thu, Mar 05 2009, 20:09 PM

Player

Joined: 23 Jan 2006

Just don't make the mistake of thinking that I take a touch longer than most in writing because I like to hear myself talk (you may fling that accusation at the character all you like, though, because sometimes it is true). I'm not experimenting or exercising with prose, I'm trying to home in on something usually related to the person I'm roleplaying with. A hint of roleplay I can exploit, dig out, and use to mutual advantage. But sometimes I have to do a lot of digging and culling to find it...both in myself, and in the other party!

And I agree with Wyjyn, to an extent. For a DM to bitch about the stress of the job always makes me want to have the kneejerk reaction of, "Ah, blow it out your ass, you crybaby", even when I hypocritically whine about it myself.

But there is one kind of stress DMs suffer, and krytellan hit the nail on the head: burnout. Krytellan recently got my claws in him on these forums because I totally misread a statement of his and thought he'd taken a kind statement of mine to a nasty personal level. Afterwards, I asked myself, "Now I feel like a jerk, why did I jump to that conclusion?"

I blame a degree of burnout. The wisest of us DMs have a tendency to take little unannounced vacations when it is necessary. I tend to make my vacations times when I up my player hours and dramatically decrease my DM hours, so that I can get in sync with what it is like to be a player again - something that is very easy to lose sight of when you have DM responsiblities.

Also, I am sure I am not the only DM to suffer this, but there is a kind of frustration that comes in not being at full liberty to participate as fully and completely as a player can in PC Events or DM Events. We do talk about DM Events and even your own PC-based Events often enough that we see things from the DM perspective, which makes playing the part as a PC...well, inadvisable, from my standpoint. I have been tempted, at times, when someone like Robert or Tormak or Ron or Kjetta proposes an extremely hot and sexy Event, to just ask to have my DM status revoked and be removed from our forums so I can be a player again in a complete way, at least for the duration of the plot.

But doing so never seems like a good idea. It feels selfish, so I never ask. And yet there is a consistent struggle to balance "DM perspective" with "player perspective". And you really just have to live both exclusively to understand them both completely.

Dwagin

Posted: Thu, Mar 05 2009, 20:51 PM

Player

Joined: 08 Aug 2006
Location: The Land of Nod

I'm not aiming this towards anyone in particular, but when reading through this thread, the thing that came directly to mind was:

When one stops behaving like a child, I assume they'll stop being treated as such.

I don't know why, but there it is.

Furthermore: I'd like to think that the DM's on the forums act in an adult manner. Some players may not like some of their personalities, and I would bet that reverse is also true.

Most of us posters on here are a vocal minority. We're no more important than the other players who rarely/never post on the forums to the server as a whole, as individuals.

Its not the staff's job to tailor this place to you individually, or even as a group. I continually to try to look at things without those rose-colored glasses which I use to wear quite often.

The DM's have alot on their plate, you couldn't pay me to do the job that they do for free. I don't have the temperament for it. They are human, they have feelings.

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-Extraordinarily ordinary in the mostest of ways.

Last edited by Dwagin on Thu, Mar 05 2009, 20:56 PM, edited 1 time in total.

Metalien

Posted: Thu, Mar 05 2009, 20:54 PM

Player

Joined: 26 Jun 2006
Location: Home of The Royal Navy - Portsmouth, England.

You see, this is exactly what I'm talking about, the title of this thread, it's being made to look like we're all arseholes for venting our opinion.

Whatever happened to being able to air our opinions without being belittled of marginalised?

'DM Standard Discussion Thread' would have been much more polite, less arsey and far more reasonable.

And as for the list of players leaving in the last 2 to 5 years, that's crap.. they've all left within the last 18 months.

So far every DM responce I've seen is just making my point clearer, not one has said anything like "So what is it you as players want to see from us?" it's all been stuff like "Oh, another bash the DM thread, joy" ...

As for that 'incident' Disco, until you brought it up I'd completely forgotten it, but if you wish to discuss it, I will... I was absoloutly innocent of what I was charged with, yet I was still fucked over and had my PC stripped bare, now... in the cases of insufficient evidence, nobody in the real world is fucked over like that, the 'charges' against them are dropped... I was told repeatedly that there was a way to prove my innocence by Nekh and yet when I was allowed back I was still stripped of everything inspite of the evidence against me being merely coincidental... fair, yes?

But anyways, I will not discuss this matter further as I couldn't relay give a damn what happened to a PC (which I don't play anymore) over 18 months ago...

What I'm saying is the reactions, replies, attitudes and behaviour of certain key DMs is nothing more than rude, obnoxious, "f*ck you and do it my way or no way" & self centred... I know DMs as a whole don't have it easy, I've been a DM, but what I'm saying is a little courtesy towards the player base isn't a hard thing to ask. Sure persistant questions about the same thing can be fustrating, sure some players can be so damn annoying you just want to say "f*ck off" ... but I don't think that as the 'Police' of this server you have the right to belittle us and talk to us like we're the lowest form of scum you just wiped off your boot heels.

We ask only for fairness, politeness and unbiased decision making, isn't that what the DMs are meant to do?

_________________
Metalien Sikth Wiki Page: http://amiawiki.shatuga.com/index.php/Metalien_Sikth

Last edited by Metalien on Thu, Mar 05 2009, 21:12 PM, edited 2 times in total.

xdrone561x

Posted: Thu, Mar 05 2009, 20:57 PM

Player

Joined: 29 Jan 2008
Location: in the factories and mills, in the shipyards and mines

ainjyll wrote:

"When something bad happens to you, you have two options. Get over it or die."

what about me bboy dancer! But a well said quote none the less!

seriously though what id like to know is why people are such doomsayers all the time. I have no doubt there are some claims in here that are viable, but most seem to me to be overly whinetastic.

Do you honestly think everyone will be the epitome of what you want them to be? Dms are humn, as players are. If you dont agree with something, there are proper channels to go through.

The other day my boss at work told me something very true, and i think it can be related here, instead of bringing forth the problems all the time, how about you bring forth a solution? If someone is causing you severe disagreement then do something or come up with a reliable solution!

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Dwagin

Posted: Thu, Mar 05 2009, 20:59 PM

Player

Joined: 08 Aug 2006
Location: The Land of Nod

Diablere Advocate: The thing about freedom of speech is, you can say what you want.. but so can someone else.

That is if it was the case these forums allowed freedom of speech, of which there is no such right, being its a private 'club'.

Ramika

Posted: Thu, Mar 05 2009, 21:01 PM

Player

Joined: 30 Aug 2006
Location: Oregon, USA

Wyjyn wrote:

Bush was an example. The point was, "People can bitch if they're not the ones doing it." The comment about us not being critical of our leaders had nothing to do with what I was trying to say. This is a prime example of what I mean by, "personality/opinion clashes." Because you don't agree, you automatically say that my argument sucks. Like Kjetta said, DMing (as I've heard from other DMs) is a job that usually rather thankless and just adds to the stress they already have - thus, burnout. It really is a good idea to take a break, which I've seen lots of DMs do.

The real reason people get told not to apply to DM is usually one of two things that I've been told; One) It's a real slap to the face reality wise if you actually get accepted. You learn things you probably didn't want to, and suddenly there's a whole new perspective which can really kill the fun. Saying that everyone takes it 'too seriously' is a bit hypocritical on everyone's part because we all do it to some extent. That's why a lot of DMs will say, "Honestly, don't apply." For some of them, it's a way of keeping you in the 'fun zone' and not completely killing your idea of the server. Two) There really is something that the DMs would go "Uh...No." if you tried to apply. For whatever reason, and it's likely a valid concern.

And I'm not sure what you mean by the comment, "They take it so seriously, like something bad will happen if the rules aren't enforce." Are you implying it doesn't matter if the DM jumps to enforce them or not? Because they really should be. The whole point to the rules is to make Amia safe and fair.

Also note - I didn't say "Why don't you try and see how easy it is?" I said, "It's easy to complain when you're not the one doing it." If you're going to slam an argument, get the points correct first, please.

xdrone561x wrote:

Do you honestly think everyone will be the epitome of what you want them to be? Dms are human, as players are. If you dont agree with something, there are proper channels to go through.

QFE.

_________________
Logins: Ramika, Li'lMikachu

Carter

Posted: Thu, Mar 05 2009, 21:05 PM

Player

Joined: 15 Aug 2005

I think one of the things that the DMs as well as the more well-known, high profile players need to keep in mind, which they often don't, is that they're rolemodels for others. I know that "rolemodel" isn't really in the job description for DMs, and I know that it's not something that many players "ask for", but it's there.

Often times, both DMs and prominent players alike overlook the fact that many people look up to them. When you hear about some character or player constantly, you realize, "Hey, they seem to be a pretty important person here." Just like when you become a DM, people suddenly say, "Hey, I didn't know this person well, but they must be very good to be made a DM." Suddenly, in both cases, people begin looking to you for how they should act, and how they should do many other things.

Regardless of whether or not you enjoy being a rolemodel, you are if you're a prominent player or a DM. Maybe not to a huge number, certainly not to everyone, but enough that your actions can make a difference. When other players, especially new players, see an obviously prominent Amian running around insulting people and being mean, then that person may well think that it's okay to act like that, and start doing so.

It's a pretty complex thing, sure, but at the base of it, it's simple. Act how you would like others to act, because if people end up looking to you as a role model, they're going to act like you. It's not hard, with some thought, to figure out whether or not you're a role model, so if you even think you are, start acting like you are, even if you don't like it. Believe it, it's something that will improve Amia.

Yossarin

Posted: Thu, Mar 05 2009, 21:05 PM

Player

Joined: 23 Jan 2006

Cpt_Metalien_XC wrote:

You see, this is exactly what I'm talking about, the title of this thread, it's being made to look like we're all arseholes for venting our opinion.

Whatever happened to Freedom of Speech?

Freedom of Speech (in an ideal world) protects you from censorship and suppression. It does not protect you from ridicule and humiliation.

What you mean to say is, "Could you please be more accepting of our opinions, and not marginalize our perceived problems with snarky title threads?"

hendrack

Posted: Thu, Mar 05 2009, 21:08 PM

Player

Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Location: Vienna

So much time wasted in this moot thread with writing walls of text that could have been used ingame, I am impressed.

Metalien

Posted: Thu, Mar 05 2009, 21:08 PM

Player

Joined: 26 Jun 2006
Location: Home of The Royal Navy - Portsmouth, England.

Yossarin wrote:

What you mean to say is, "Could you please be more accepting of our opinions, and not marginalize our perceived problems with snarky title threads?"

Well, yes.. that's pretty much what I meant, thankyou for correcting me and doing it in a way we as players respect.

xdrone561x wrote:

Do you honestly think everyone will be the epitome of what you want them to be? Dms are human, as players are. If you dont agree with something, there are proper channels to go through.

Unfortunately the 'channels' we're supposed to go through are the same people I've lost confidence in.

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Metalien Sikth Wiki Page: http://amiawiki.shatuga.com/index.php/Metalien_Sikth

Ramika

Posted: Thu, Mar 05 2009, 21:14 PM

Player

Joined: 30 Aug 2006
Location: Oregon, USA

Carter wrote:

Lightning strike me now, but I agree with this. I mean, it's not fair to ask someone to completely change their personality, but it is something to keep in mind.

_________________
Logins: Ramika, Li'lMikachu

Carter

Posted: Thu, Mar 05 2009, 21:14 PM

Player

Joined: 15 Aug 2005

Yossarin wrote:

Cpt_Metalien_XC wrote:

You see, this is exactly what I'm talking about, the title of this thread, it's being made to look like we're all arseholes for venting our opinion.

Whatever happened to Freedom of Speech?

And giving it that meaning, I agree quite fully with Metalien. I think one of the main reasons the DMs come under so much hate is because of the way they react to it. When a suggestion comes along about how the DMs could do better, or something someone percieves as being done wrong, it's far more often met by DMs saying something along the lines of, "Quit whining, we don't care", and then locked, as opposed to a simple, "We'll consider this in the future. Thank you", followed by a lock. Even if the DMs -don't- consider it (which they should, especially in those situations where they comfortably respond with "This comes up constantly", since that probably means a problem -does- exist), that simple, polite, positive response will cause a much more positive reaction from the players than a quick, harsh, negative response.

The same thing goes for topic titles like this one, because Metalien is right. It makes anyone who has anything even remotely not-good to say about the DMs look like a complete and total arse, as opposed to them looking like someone who genuinely wants to help, like most of the people who have posted here do.

Nekhy

Posted: Thu, Mar 05 2009, 21:16 PM

Player

One thing to remember, too: there's always, always more than one side to the story, too. People are more than the sum of the personality traits they give off to the public. A lot of points to consider, a lot of things to take into account. If a solution seems simple enough, it's likely populism and a short-time solution that will not yield long-term results.

I lied, that's more than one thing to consider. But anyway, it's how we try to run this server. Take that as my drunk official statement, if you like.

Carter

Posted: Thu, Mar 05 2009, 21:20 PM

Player

Joined: 15 Aug 2005

Nekhy wrote:

Quite so, which is why not every solution someone posts is something that could reasonably be considered. Some are the wrong solution, some are the correct solution that wouldn't quite work on Amia, some are just plain incorrect observations, but that doesn't change the fact that people react better to politesse, as opposed to rudeness. Even what a post isn't intended as rude, it can certainly be percieved as such, something that's especially true in short, quick, negative responses.

That's just something to keep in mind for DMs, and for players, too, when it comes up. It's amazing how well someone can take rejection when they're let down easily, instead of dropped head first.

Ramika

Posted: Thu, Mar 05 2009, 21:21 PM

Player

Joined: 30 Aug 2006
Location: Oregon, USA

Carter wrote:

Nekhy wrote:

Yup. S'what I said in my initial post. So. QFE.

_________________
Logins: Ramika, Li'lMikachu

ainjyll

Posted: Thu, Mar 05 2009, 21:27 PM

Player

Joined: 14 Jun 2006
Location: wilmington, nc

I can understand a lot of people's arguments here. I'll go so far as to agree that the stance of the DM team seems to have shifted to a slightly more totalitarian regime. In so much as the being hard asses and such. But, I wouldn't go so far as to say that this is necessarily a bad thing.

The only thing I've noticed that could possibly need improvement is that the DM team seems to have become too specialized. With specialization comes limitation.

_________________

"I once took the high road and it took me straight to hell and I stood there all by myself." -Hank III

Yossarin

Posted: Thu, Mar 05 2009, 21:31 PM

Player

Joined: 23 Jan 2006

ainjyll wrote:

The only thing I've noticed that could possibly need improvement is that the DM team seems to have become too specialized. With specialization comes limitation.

Please elaborate, if you could. I think I know what you mean, but I do not want to assume.

Teufel Eldritch

Posted: Thu, Mar 05 2009, 21:42 PM

Player

Joined: 23 Feb 2006

Speaking for myself only...I don't feel nearly as thrilled about playing Amia as I used to in the past. I am afraid to post my thoughts on the forums because all that happens is flaming. I also feel that anything I say will not be paid attention to & just shrugged off by the staff. I have lost faith & trust in the DM team/staff -and- the playerbase. It's not just the staff, the playerbase has it's own issues, but both together make for a not as fun Amia as it used to be.

I don't want to get to specific, because like I said I'm afraid of gettting jumped on & smashed by every flaming debater on the forums but let's just that the cozy family feeling that I used to feel is no longer there. It's more like battle to come here & play then it is relaxing & kicking it with cool ppl.

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YANKEE ROSE
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Moridan_X

Posted: Thu, Mar 05 2009, 21:44 PM

Player

Joined: 23 Dec 2008

DMs needa enjoy da game, cuz thats what it is, a game.

From what im seein', DMs are up-da-but tight on the game, like it is a skilled profession or something along the lines of a job.

Rules? Well, I would know on this one,

They needa listen to the thread that the main man laid down in the beginning. It gave some lenient examples and plenty of fair warnings, I've not seen any of that treatment from any DM but Khylanarere.

cuz yeah, its a game

chillax b

p34c3

_________________

Moridan_X wrote:

I liek Jean Ortega as a character because it shows that everyone can be different. I also don't think we should incorporate mean behavior in video games.

Dev Disco

Posted: Thu, Mar 05 2009, 21:52 PM

HRM Chicken I of Amia

Joined: 02 Jun 2005
Location: Amsterdam

Cpt_Metalien_XC wrote:

You see, this is exactly what I'm talking about, the title of this thread, it's being made to look like we're all arseholes for venting our opinion.

Whatever happened to being able to air our opinions without being belittled of marginalised?

'DM Standard Discussion Thread' would have been much more polite, less arsey and far more reasonable.

And as for the list of players leaving in the last 2 to 5 years, that's crap.. they've all left within the last 18 months.

So far every DM responce I've seen is just making my point clearer, not one has said anything like "So what is it you as players want to see from us?" it's all been stuff like "Oh, another bash the DM thread, joy" ...

As for that 'incident' Disco, until you brought it up I'd completely forgotten it, but if you wish to discuss it, I will... I was absoloutly innocent of what I was charged with, yet I was still (censored) over and had my PC stripped bare, now... in the cases of insufficient evidence, nobody in the real world is (censored) over like that, the 'charges' against them are dropped... I was told repeatedly that there was a way to prove my innocence by Nekh and yet when I was allowed back I was still stripped of everything inspite of the evidence against me being merely coincidental... fair, yes?

But anyways, I will not discuss this matter further as I couldn't relay give a damn what happened to a PC (which I don't play anymore) over 18 months ago...

What I'm saying is the reactions, replies, attitudes and behaviour of certain key DMs is nothing more than rude, obnoxious, "f*ck you and do it my way or no way" & self centred... I know DMs as a whole don't have it easy, I've been a DM, but what I'm saying is a little courtesy towards the player base isn't a hard thing to ask. Sure persistant questions about the same thing can be fustrating, sure some players can be so damn annoying you just want to say "f*ck off" ... but I don't think that as the 'Police' of this server you have the right to belittle us and talk to us like we're the lowest form of scum you just wiped off your boot heels.

We ask only for fairness, politeness and unbiased decision making, isn't that what the DMs are meant to do?

Well, as most of the comments are about me (and maybe I fit in the last paragraph as well?) I guess I'll answer the whole lot in one go.

I did take the effort to split the post, and I could have simply ditched this part. It wasn't on topic, it was distracting from the discussion Sokar started. Instead I created a new thread, and I gave it a somewhat snarky, but in my opinion wholly deserved, topic name. Blame me if you don't like it, I am fine with that. Has nothing to do with the rest of the DM team.

You can also say we are posting like arseholes in this thread. I disagree, and I think that whatever we post is completely irrelevant for your verdict. You see what you want to see. That is also fine, but it doesn't help anything at all.

I also think you didn't really read my post about the muling. I did mention that incident, and I mentioned nobody involved was very happy with it. I never said I wanted to discuss it. I only mentioned it because it was the reason why I made a system that doesn't work with suspicions and suggestions. If you are caught now, you are guilty. Simple as that. Quite a few people left after they were stripped, but the rules about twinking are crystal clear.

Well, you may think this is all another arsehole answer, but I think it's a very fair and civilised one. We can of course disagree about that.

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Metalien

Posted: Thu, Mar 05 2009, 22:02 PM

Player

Joined: 26 Jun 2006
Location: Home of The Royal Navy - Portsmouth, England.

Actualy I don't disagree with your post, it's nice to have an answer to my statements/questions.

I think to avoid repeating myself I'll summarise my gripe and then leave it at that, running in circles repeating oneself is pointless.

I feel that some of the DM team have become rude, arrogant and have lost the trust and faith of many of us players. As has been said by a previous poster, this server has lost it's 'family' feel to it, it's now more like being at work for a boss who's lost touch with shop floor reality.

I agree that it's not just the DMs, I feel us players are equaly as guilty of this, quite who started it I don't know but I feel it's a case of certain players or DMs got their goat up about something, then the opposite party replied in kind and it's been a complete vicious circle ever since.

I propose that perhaps we should all try and be a bit more courteous to one another, eventualy people will start taking things in kind and perhaps the family vibe will come back to Amia.

I for one miss the days when certain DMs were impartial, polite but firm and patient and worked hard for all sides to make things run smooth and friendly like, but sadly that may be just a thing of the past, an 'It was better in the old days' kinda thing, I hope not.

I for one have said my piece and will say no more, perhaps we could all just stand back, take a breath and try harder to be nicer to each other and eventualy everyone will show courtesy and be honest without being an arsehole.

So, yes... I've lost faith in certain DMs and their ability to remain impartial and fair but firm, I hope this isn't a lasting thing in these DMs and that we'll all, players and DMs alike will perhaps just try and be a bit nicer to one another.

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Talon

Posted: Thu, Mar 05 2009, 22:14 PM

Player

Joined: 18 Feb 2006
Location: Texas, where else?

Can we lock this and take it to PM's? The entire server doesn't need to hear the rants of 1 player.

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Metalien

Posted: Thu, Mar 05 2009, 22:20 PM

Player

Joined: 26 Jun 2006
Location: Home of The Royal Navy - Portsmouth, England.

Talon, with respect I don't think you're reading the thread at all, this is much more than just me venting, this is a discussion between many players and DMs alike.

I've said my thing and will leave it at that, your post is just trying to fan the flames somewhat, please, just read the whole thing and understand that it's a discussion between many... heated as it may be at points... a discussion it still is.

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xdrone561x

Posted: Thu, Mar 05 2009, 22:20 PM

Player

Joined: 29 Jan 2008
Location: in the factories and mills, in the shipyards and mines

Talon wrote:

Can we lock this and take it to PM's? The entire server doesn't need to hear the rants of 1 player.

Actually if you read over the entire thread there are a few people who agree with what the capt has to say. So how about we try and be less condescending of anothers opinion hrm?

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Uberuce

Posted: Thu, Mar 05 2009, 22:22 PM

Player

Joined: 11 Nov 2005
Location: Near the bar.

A chap wiser than me once said of an internet forum:

This place isn't a business, a public service or some other intrinsic right you have as a citizen of the internet. Any argument comparing it to the first two or appealing to the third automatically fails.

What this place is actually like is [the admins of that forum]'s house, which they have opened up to the public and invited them to drink their beer and play in their pool, lie on their sunloungers and otherwise hang out. It's just plain rude to complain that the beer's in cans, not bottles, or the pool's not warm enough for you. No-one is obliged to invite rude people to their house, but they keep letting you come over.

BloodNAshes said it neutrally and was slapped down erroneously in another thread recently, when someone disagreed with the way he ran his Bareknucks events: go make your own.

It's the only rational solution to disliking the way a bunch of unpaid enthusiasts for a now-archaic online RPG run their server. If you've been here lying on the sunlounger so long that you've forgotten that it's not your house, then remind yourself or go home. Maybe both.

Carter

Posted: Thu, Mar 05 2009, 22:34 PM

Player

Joined: 15 Aug 2005

Well, it's really more complicated than that. I give Ruce's analogy a solid C+, maybe a B-. Good effort, but inaccurate!

Moridan_X

Posted: Thu, Mar 05 2009, 22:37 PM

Player

Joined: 23 Dec 2008

Talon wrote:

Can we lock this and take it to PM's? The entire server doesn't need to hear the rants of 1 player.

i don't think it is necessary to have a thread locked based on a single player's request. rant? i don't think so, it seems plenty good to me.

its much more difficult to coordinate things through PMs when you can have it conveniently right here in a single thread.

i think it is a good idea to have a thread like this on the forums.

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Moridan_X wrote:

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BlackDahlya

Posted: Thu, Mar 05 2009, 23:15 PM

Player

Joined: 17 Aug 2005
Location: Land of the Scorching Sun, Empowered by Global Warming

I am writing from work. For now, the only thing I will "nitpick" from what you are saying is the following.

Cpt_Metalien_XC wrote:

<snip>I feel that some of the DM team have become rude, arrogant and have lost the trust and faith of many of us players. As has been said by a previous poster, this server has lost it's 'family' feel to it, it's now more like being at work for a boss who's lost touch with shop floor reality.

I agree that it's not just the DMs, I feel us players are equaly as guilty of this, quite who started it I don't know but I feel it's a case of certain players or DMs got their goat up about something, then the opposite party replied in kind and it's been a complete vicious circle ever since.<snip>

If it is ~some~, then take it directly to the person in question (be it a DM or a player). No need to make generalizations.

Recently I've been having more problems with players than DMs (both from my faction and outside it) and I have been blunt to take it to them and try solving, instead of making threads generalizing something or taking it to someone else on their back. I will not even say problems anymore because I solved some of them and others come from time to time and need discussion and solving, but we keep it civil and eventually we find a solution.

By making generalizations you make it seem as if things are utterly chaotic, completely out of hand, and as Drone said, gives that feeling of doomsayer announcing the end of the world, when in most cases that's not the true.

Just like Mika said above, I am guilty in the past of being a (censored) player to both my fellow players (especially the shriners) and some of the DMs. To some I apologized, to some I didn't because I admit it was a childish behaviour of my part and I am too ashamed and still too proud to apologize, some of them will never want to see me again...

Even recently, with my short temper and huge pride, I still commit mistakes sometimes. But, as I said on an earlier post, I feel it's best to take it up with the person in question instead of letting it rest or spreading to the rest of the playerbase claiming to be this horrible problem that is or should be everyone's business.

I could name names of players and DMs that I had problems and sit with them to solve it. Some of those discussions would take 15 minutes, some around one hour... it would vary and oftentimes the core of most of those issues was, plain and simply, miscommunication.

I might not trust a DM or two, but I do not use it as a reason to not try solving issues I might have when they arise, because the longer you take to solve something higher are the chances it could only get messy rather than wither and die.

I repeat again.

Most of the issues you are saying are there are isolated cases, happening to people close to you. It is not a common issue. But because they are people close to you and you know only them, seems to you as if it's something big happening everywhere.

I mean you as a general term, not you as in you Paul, despite having quoted a portion of your text.

I don't know if I am making any sense. Being constantly interrupted by customers at my job speaking a different language than that I am writing makes it easier to lose my train of thought.

But this is pretty much what I can think of saying right now. I will probably come back to this thread when I am back home within some 3h30minutes.

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Once Upon A Time Played
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Mr. Hackums

Posted: Thu, Mar 05 2009, 23:29 PM

Player

Joined: 22 May 2008

Alright, alright. For one, I'd like to voice my opinion. I firmly believe, and this might be from being in the military, that if you show someone respect it will shortly turn mutual. I also believe that there's a point that you shouldnt dance on, and thats called brown-nosing (Ie: Dont go overboard with thanking. Do it once and get out). Whenever I speak to DM's or interact with them, I -always- thank them. If they wronged me, I thank them anyways, for correcting me. If I respect the DM's, then I can also be pretty sure that they will at least be thankful, and I can hope for the respect to be mutual. The best thing to do is create a peaceful, happy atmosphere for everyone, and thats not ONLY THE DM'S JOB. And yes, you can be peaceful and happy even when you play an evil tiefling who massacres children. Its difficult, yes, but doable.

So here are some suggestions for, well, making things easier. DM's, players, family members by chance happening to stumble across this post, that creepy man over your shoulder that you dont know about... EVERYONE.

- Dont forget to laugh once in a while. Even at yourself. Force a laugh, if you find it hard. Grin that big cheesy grin to the point in which someone observing you either A.) Smiles as well, or B.) Thinks your an idiot, and in turn, might grin.

Cpt_Metalien_XC wrote:

... running in circles repeating oneself is pointless.

-My next point. If you find yourself cooped up, in a harsh, unforgiving situation, get up our of your chair, type a little, "//Brb.", and run in circles around the room, shouting and hooting like an Ewok. Yes, I butchered Metalien's quote there to make it fit, but in all seriousness, remember that its a game guys, have some fun! SO, if when you -do- run in circles shouting and giving gutteral... noises and you repeat it, I see it has having a good intention/point.

-Lastly, dont be afraid to take it up the bunghole occasionally. Thats the price of being nice. Yeah, you may have just run around your room like a crazed Ewok, but then you return back to the game, and the people you are in a situation with havent, so they dont feel any better, dont be afraid to bend over once in a while. And when you DO get served like that, smile and thank them. TRY IT. Thank them, no matter, what, and even write up some kind of apology, if you really feel generous. You'll feel like a better person for doing so, and eventually (Almost always quickly), the other person will begin to feel like a jerk, and they'll come back to you as well. And if they dont, do you really need to care what they think? No, you dont. Unless they're DM's, and in that case, just role with the punches, and if you cant do it out of kindness, do it out of respect. Oh, and if you really cant mend a situation, remember these wise words...

"Everyone has to sleep sometime."

krytellan

Posted: Thu, Mar 05 2009, 23:32 PM

Player

Joined: 05 Jun 2006

I'm just really curious, because I can obviously only know what I directly experience. What I am seeing here is that there are several players speaking their opinion on their dislike of what the DM team has become. Many will say they can either accept it or leave and yes, ultimately, those are the only real solutions for that player.

However, seeing that I have recently noticed some of these same things against myself - and I am by no means a complainer, flamer, bitcher, or any of those things - I am curious why there is no one from the DM team that can step forward and say something that acknowledges that opinion.

There are most definitely some people on the staff that have -seemingly- become very rude and abrasive. I think what players would love to see is for any or all of those people accept this as a reality and put credit where it is due. Just to hear someone come forth and say "yeah, you know I can claim some responsibility for some rude behavior blah blah blah..." would do wonders.

This doesn't just go for staff, but players too. But I know given the forum of communication we are using, all people in question will use anonymity to stay in the shadows. This will not happen and so this entire thread is ultimately useless. Continue to play and accept all of the likes and dislikes that go into that or quite frankly, you will have a very difficult time here.

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Mr. Hackums

Posted: Thu, Mar 05 2009, 23:38 PM

Player

Joined: 22 May 2008

Make sure that you read every post, and that not all people feel that the DM's are being rude.

I'm tellin ya, it works magic. Smiles are contagious.

Estara

Posted: Thu, Mar 05 2009, 23:44 PM

Player

Joined: 23 Feb 2007

Silvarus wrote:

There has always been drama and there will always be drama whenever two players come together to role play online.

False. Unless you meant character drama... but I don't think you did. I've been a part of really good roleplay that has had 0% OOC drama. I feel kinda spoiled. But then, when I get thrust into player-player drama, I just run away, because I don't play a game to deal with people's issues. I could spend time reporting them and shit, but I play a game to deal with character issues. Stuff that's actually fun.

Sucks to be a DM. Oh, and, really... I bet I'd laugh a lot seeing some of your guys's faces who're complaining when you read the DM forums... there's a reason they have secret little DM forums, so everyone's problems aren't aired out to the public. You probably don't know the whole story of everything. Like, Nekh's a nice lady... with tight ass boots. She'll kick a DM in the face with 'em if they're really being an arsehole. I'm guessing the DM Team is actually being nicer than we figure. I mean, one time I got really pissed at Ron... haha!! I wonder if he remembers. That was a funny day. Not really at the time, but... huh...

Anyway, yeah, I don't even see why your fun has to come from "trusting" the DM Team. If they're not killing all your characters, what are they doing that's ruining your gameplay? If Tormak's rude forum comments are making you hate your characters, I mean, I guess I just miss the correlation. But yeah... thought I'd just post in here saying that while some might agree with Meta, some of us don't, too. Not that my opinion even matters all that much.

And woo, Nekh, this is my drunk statement! Or rather.. cold-medicine-mixed-with-alcohol statement. Man, do I feel happily loopy. I still spelled everything right, though

Galenson

Posted: Fri, Mar 06 2009, 0:35 AM

Player

Joined: 26 May 2006
Location: Down Under, calculating your demise with blunt expressions.

This thread has two sides: (interpretations from a frozen, simple Australian Brain)

Side 1: You have the old players who are saying "we don't like how we're being treated, we've put our sweat and blood into this server and because of reason A we don't enjoy it as much anymore. We blame reason B."

Side 2: You have the newer players saying "Get the feth over it you old school die hards. We manage, so can you. You're nothing special."

Changes are already being made which is obvious. Side 1 hasn't retaliated with the comment "Keep your mouth shut, you weren't around in the good old days" and Side 2 hasn't started calling Side 1 elitist snobs. Good to see.

Problem is that these two sides need to dissipate and merge for this issue to go away.

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Herr Delta Houdini

Posted: Fri, Mar 06 2009, 0:55 AM

Player

Joined: 06 Jun 2008
Location: England

xdrone561x wrote:

Talon wrote:

Can we lock this and take it to PM's? The entire server doesn't need to hear the rants of 1 player.

Actually if you read over the entire thread there are a few people who agree with what the capt has to say. So how about we try and be less condescending of anothers opinion hrm?

There's also more than who have posted here who agree with it, not mentioning any of them, but there are quite some.

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Basin

Posted: Fri, Mar 06 2009, 1:14 AM

Player

Joined: 15 Feb 2006
Location: United Kingdom

Teufel Eldritch wrote:

Ding, Ding, Ding, QFE.

Amia had started losing its fun factor months back to me, Along with having a busy RL, I just dont have the urge or want to play the game anymore.

I completely agree with everything Metalien has said in this thread.

There is something missing thats been gone for a while, I cant quite put my finger too it, But perhaps its whats causing many to leave.

soundofastream

Posted: Fri, Mar 06 2009, 1:41 AM

Player

Joined: 21 Sep 2007

I would disagree entirely with Metalien's statement. I am of the idea that the DM team are still stern, impartial and fair.

When he (metalien) complained about me to the DM team, I got a stern telling off by Disco himself. Proof that the DM team are taking player complaints seriously. This flys in the face that DM quality is somehow going downhill and not enforcing rules anymore. I was also turned down from playing another platinum race, due to this complaint reflecting badly upon my own roleplay. In other words, I was, as a result of his one complaint, rather adversely affected by it and have taken it all in stride and learnt from the issue. He probably doesn't even realise just how seriously his complaint was taken by the DM team. I hold no grudges and I think they behaved admirably and I was in the wrong. Its all in the past now and I feel I can safely use my own example in public because the only one who is affected by it is me.

But what riles me Metalien is you then turn around and have the cheek to say the DM team aren't taking their jobs seriously or are somehow not qualified...

I think the evidence speaks for itself. You really are in a state of delusion if you think the DM team are somehow unfair or not of high calibre.

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Elithiel Issatheerin (Shadow Elf) She who Lurks
Isolia Oussea'lylth (Sun Elf) Apprentice Wizardess

Kendera

Posted: Fri, Mar 06 2009, 1:55 AM

Player

Joined: 04 Jan 2005

There are one or two DM's that need a (censored) attitude tweak on the forums.

On the other hand, there are 50-60 of the 300 players that are rude, rediculous, naive, mischevious players that make our lives difficult, and when we run to the DM's, eventually they get mad too.

They're not paid to do this.
They were selected.
They accepted.

And they have to deal with everyone ones problem and general bull(censored).

Before you point fingers at the DM, make sure you take a really good look at yourself, first.

(I.E)Tormak, you're a jerk. But I antagonize you. So I'm a jerk too. (/end "hypothetical example")

When angry players take a dump in a DM's Cheerios, they're probably none-to-happy bout having ruined cheerios.

It makes them angry.
Duh.

I'd be pissed too. We need to work on toning down hostility as a playerbase, and stop being so rude. PvP Happens, but there is -NO- need to be obnoxious OOCly about it. If you think someone glitched and exploited, quietly report it, don't retort with a " OMG WTF I HATE YOU" like -certain- people have done. Sure, I get testy when I roll a 1, but its more at hating my inherited bad luck from my family, not at the player that defeated me.

Why the hell do we spend our free time, during a game for -fun-, yelling screaming and bitching at each other?

Stop criticizing DM's! Knock it -off- until you've made sure that YOU are NOT the source of their anxeity! Are you being rude during PvP? Do you cuss and type rude things when you lose, or do you R.P!(Roll with the Punches!)

Are you mad that your pixelated character got reamed? Tuff sh**.

The problem isn't the DMs. It's us. Sooner we start gauging our responses, and leave our virtual pride in the entry area, the better off we'll be

It's okay to be Mad ICly, because thats your character. The moment "//" comes into play, you need to slap yourself before making a topic like this.
Slap yourself hard, so I don't have to.

If any disagree with me, I don't care. I really dont. Why? Because it's a game, and I offered my opinion. It's just not worth getting offended or angry about, or even really arguing about.

Not anymore. I realized this recently, and I've been here. ..what... since the end of 2004, and the very begining of 05? It's been a long time coming, and I may only be 19, but this is a serious thing ya gotta learn in all aspects of life.

Consider if it's worth the anger and frustration before you pop off "I effin hate you, and I'm leaving."

End rant, yo.

P.S- This applies to any situation, not just PvP. PvP is just a very prominent source of discontent atm.

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Schala Wintermoon, Ravenloft escapee, Priestess of Akadi
Constance Silverhand- Quirky elven monk.
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