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Metalien
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 Posted: Wed, Mar 04 2009, 15:22 PM |
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Player
Joined: 26 Jun 2006
Location: Home of The Royal Navy - Portsmouth, England.
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Personaly, I don't see the RP as a problem, I see the attitude of some DMs and their inability to stamp out unfair behaviour by people who should know better.
The standards on this server have gone downhill so fast it's shocking, there's been an almost exodus of players leaving and I'm not far behind them, the fun loving, friendly, but stern DMs we used to have are gone.
I'm not saying all the DM team are guilty of this, some of them are realy nice, friendly, open people... I just find a small core of them inconsistant, rude, abbrasive and poor at their jobs.
End rant, I wait for the abuse.
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Brown Blur
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Posted: Wed, Mar 04 2009, 17:40 PM |
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Player
Joined: 27 Oct 2007
Location: Anywhere but Amia.
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Cpt_Metalien_XC wrote:
The standards on this server have gone downhill so fast it's shocking, there's been an almost exodus of players leaving and I'm not far behind them.........
Agreed, sadly.
_________________
"Never ascribe to malice, that which can be explained by incompetence"
~ Napoleon Bonaparte.
- Clearly, Napoleon never envisioned the Internet......where I'd judge it about 50/50.
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IronAngel
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Posted: Wed, Mar 04 2009, 18:13 PM |
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Player
Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Location: Helsinki, Finland
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Brown Blur wrote: Cpt_Metalien_XC wrote:
The standards on this server have gone downhill so fast it's shocking, there's been an almost exodus of players leaving and I'm not far behind them.........
Agreed, sadly. I disagree about our standards, but I'm more interested in the latter part of the thesis, though. Do you have any statistics on notable players leaving over the years? I'm extremely skeptical about your claim. It's one that's been presented a dozen times over the years I've played here, and there has been nothing but growth in the playerbase. For every player that leaves, another arrives. The ratio of good roleplayers and bad roleplayers is the same among those who come and those who leave, because everyone who's arrived will also leave at one point, and therefore they're actually the same people. Though many may have become better roleplayers during their time on Amia, which does lend credibility to the claim of more good players leaving than arriving. However, when you say that you're not taking into account the fact that many green new players will, in time, grow to become the established figures and great role-players that will be bemoaned when they eventually leave. It's hard to say whether the quality's gone up or down, but I'd say there's been a subtle change for the better. That's just my gut feeling. _________________ On Joon, Kjetta wrote: The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
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Yossarin
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Posted: Wed, Mar 04 2009, 18:24 PM |
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Player
Joined: 23 Jan 2006
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Sokar, is it disingenuous to whittle your entire point down to "more quests, please?" I mean, you have your reasons and rationale, etc., but is that the very deep, beating heart core of change?
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Wyjyn
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Posted: Wed, Mar 04 2009, 18:37 PM |
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Player
Joined: 11 Jan 2007
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I would listen to Cpt_Metalien on this particular occasion if I was you.
What it comes down to in my mind is who are leaving and why. If I was driven off by the DM team or whatever, people would pretty well think: "well, that really isnt that suprising overall, figures". However, some of the people that have been driven away lately are the kinds of people that just shouldnt be.
_________________
Wyjyn: Loving all of you (and above all Disco) since 11 Jan 2007.
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Yossarin
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Posted: Wed, Mar 04 2009, 18:41 PM |
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Player
Joined: 23 Jan 2006
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I'm just asking a question for clarification, to make sure I'm not missing anything before I give more of a response, Wyjyn. The pinpoint seems to be a desire for more requests, but I want to make sure I'm not among the many who missed a greater point.
And I think I know well enough what Metalien is referring to, heh.
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Metalien
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Posted: Wed, Mar 04 2009, 18:46 PM |
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Player
Joined: 26 Jun 2006
Location: Home of The Royal Navy - Portsmouth, England.
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IronAngel wrote: Do you have any statistics on notable players leaving over the years?.
Scarlet Tarvencia's Player
Krin Tarvencia's Player
Arissa_Nightblade
Oarthais
Braxton
To name a few of the most recent...
I'm not saying that for every good player that goes someone terrible fills their shoes, that'd be pretty short sighted of me to say that. What I'm saying is I find the standard of the DMs on average to have gone downhill.
There was a time when the DM team were firm but fair, polite and forthright... now I find that a good few, 4 to 5 to give numbers, are rude, arrogant, couldn't give a damn and just have the "What I say is final, so bollocks to what you may think or feel" it often feels that some of the take Amia as a personal playground and use the players to entertain themselves rather than entertaining the players as it should be.
Some of the DM team are realy realy nice people who I'd have all the time in the world for, truly.. so please, to these people don't think I'm branding you all with the same iron. I just find that in the last year things have totaly gone downhill and rather than try to help, the DM team don't seem to (on average) have the compassion, concern, dedication or time to get to the root of a problem... rather that, they seem to find it easier to say "Right, player 'a' you're at fault, shut up or shove off" rather than the "OK, A and B, tell me.. what is the root of this problem and we'll work together to fix the issue"
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IronAngel
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Posted: Wed, Mar 04 2009, 18:59 PM |
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Player
Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Location: Helsinki, Finland
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I'm not sure what team it is you're comparing the current one to. That may be so, or it may not. I know that the team from before my time probably wasn't as wonderful as you describe, though. Either way, I think you're wrong to use some names of players who've left as evidence one way or the other. It's just not very, well, scientific or objective. Every one of them had individual reasons, some of which may have been the likes of which you suppose, others you might know only a fraction of the story about, many probably having nothing to do with it.
By statistics, I mean to look further back in history and compile actual numeric evidence of how many "established" players are leaving. What of Amwryn, Gunnerbungle, Feonir, Zeus_Lightning, Aleph, PapayaTaco, just to name a few prominent players I recall from earlier days? There's always been a steady stream of players leaving for a variety of reasons. Unless there's some hard numbers to present, I simply won't believe such claims. Because they've already been made, many times, and always with just about as much evidence. And the predictions have always been wrong.
I'm not saying your opinion isn't valid, but I do think that this particular piece of evidence is unreliable.
_________________ On Joon, Kjetta wrote: The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
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Wyjyn
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Posted: Wed, Mar 04 2009, 19:02 PM |
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Player
Joined: 11 Jan 2007
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Letum_lex and Wakaman, to me, are pretty seriousl honestly. It isnt that I roleplayed with them every day, but rather that they were players that just by seeing them in the player list I knew amia wasnt that bad a place. There are a whole bunch of players like that to me, when they leave it begins to make me question things.
_________________
Wyjyn: Loving all of you (and above all Disco) since 11 Jan 2007.
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Metalien
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Posted: Wed, Mar 04 2009, 19:03 PM |
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Player
Joined: 26 Jun 2006
Location: Home of The Royal Navy - Portsmouth, England.
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My point is, I'm not alone in this (I just seem to be the only one willing to say it publicly) but I and others have lost faith and trust in the DM team.
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IronAngel
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Posted: Wed, Mar 04 2009, 19:08 PM |
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Player
Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Location: Helsinki, Finland
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Well, that's another matter. If you'd like to discuss it further in PMs/MSN with us, I'm sure I'm not the only one willing.
_________________ On Joon, Kjetta wrote: The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
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Brown Blur
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Posted: Wed, Mar 04 2009, 21:25 PM |
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Player
Joined: 27 Oct 2007
Location: Anywhere but Amia.
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IronAngel wrote: Brown Blur wrote: Cpt_Metalien_XC wrote:
The standards on this server have gone downhill so fast it's shocking, there's been an almost exodus of players leaving and I'm not far behind them.........
Agreed, sadly. I disagree about our standards, but I'm more interested in the latter part of the thesis, though. Do you have any statistics on notable players leaving over the years? I'm extremely skeptical about your claim. It's one that's been presented a dozen times over the years I've played here, and there has been nothing but growth in the playerbase. For every player that leaves, another arrives. The ratio of good roleplayers and bad roleplayers is the same among those who come and those who leave, because everyone who's arrived will also leave at one point, and therefore they're actually the same people. Though many may have become better roleplayers during their time on Amia, which does lend credibility to the claim of more good players leaving than arriving. However, when you say that you're not taking into account the fact that many green new players will, in time, grow to become the established figures and great role-players that will be bemoaned when they eventually leave. It's hard to say whether the quality's gone up or down, but I'd say there's been a subtle change for the better. That's just my gut feeling. Apologies, Iron, I only meant to use a quote from Metalien to speak of player behaviour, and not that of the DM's, as I haven't, I have to say, seen, for myself, the behaviour that Metal speaks of. (In fairness to him, I have tto say I don't know enough to either support or dispute what he is saying either way. In fact, my only complaint agains the DM's is that they seem to be rather too lax on occasion, but clearly my experience differs from Metal's in that).
Nor do I want to seem that I am 'sucking up' to DM's with this.... there is a level of respect that ought be afforded to DM's because of their position, and I sympathise with Metal in that he seems to have found that things have caused him to feel that he can no longer do that (if indeed he would put it in quite those terms).
_________________
"Never ascribe to malice, that which can be explained by incompetence"
~ Napoleon Bonaparte.
- Clearly, Napoleon never envisioned the Internet......where I'd judge it about 50/50.
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The Incognitos
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Posted: Wed, Mar 04 2009, 22:33 PM |
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Player
Joined: 10 Dec 2007
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I have to agree with the Captain also. I used to play on Amia everyday because I knew that if I had the inclination and a DM was about, we could make something cool happen. Everything from a DM supported scam to an obscene and explosive robbery of a temple. The DMs were there to facilitate the actions and insert a degree of rationality and reason.
That is not to say that this kind of thing cannot happen now, it is just sad that seeing '1 DM online' on the website doesn't have me clawing at the keyboard to try and log in as fast as i can.
I think one of the points the Captain was making is that the healthy mix of impartial rationality and a desire to simply make something, anything cool happen has been replaced(in some cases) by a haughty attitude that can be summed up with 'my way or the highway'. It is my humble opinion that 'because I said so' is not a fair justification irregardless of circumstance (obvious rule breaking is defined by the website is exempt from this).
So, if someone voices a cool idea on the DM channel give them the few seconds they need to sketch it out and if possible, give it a shot. What have you got to lose? Usually it'll give the DM a chance to take over a few NPCs and mess around on the ground so to speak. There is nothing as great on Amia as those things you don't expect. I don't know about the rest of you but I think it would be bloody fantastic if everything wasn't always super safe and samey.
SIDE NOTE: Respect should always be earned and should never be expected
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Yossarin
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Posted: Wed, Mar 04 2009, 22:53 PM |
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Player
Joined: 23 Jan 2006
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The Incognitos wrote: What have you got to lose?
The respect of much of the playerbase save the one you admitted to perform the act, provided you, as a DM, even had their respect in the first place; a degree of perceived impartiality because clearly, in allowing the player to do whatever you did, you were playing favorites; the kindness of the marshmallow, tea party social RP'ers whose RP was interrupted by the player's instigating action that you allowed; the battle against those players with terrible ideas who swear their ideas are not terrible because the first player was allowed to do what they wanted; the compassion of your fellow DMs, who would wonder why the fuck you let a player get away with murder; the ability to work with the design and development team who are now jumping down your throat because of the amount of work they have to do to keep from retconning the action; a significant degree of self-respect because in trying to bring roleplay to whole bunch of players who claim to be roleplayers, you brought them nothing but what they consider to be a headache because they either prefer their own PC-based plots and hate DM-based plots, or because they don't get to have the limelight in the story, and this causes you to question whether you are even doing your job right or not, since not only can you not make everyone happy some of the time, you only seem to succeed in make all of the people unhappy most of the time...
Should I go on with what I've lost over the years?
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BlackDahlya
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Posted: Wed, Mar 04 2009, 23:03 PM |
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Player
Joined: 17 Aug 2005
Location: Land of the Scorching Sun, Empowered by Global Warming
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Going Off Topic a bit to reply to some of the posts, especially those in reply to Metalien's.
I honestly have not been having problems like that with the staff. Recently I nudged DMs in game asking for something if they were not busy and I got what I wanted.
I sent PMs with plots asking them to be taken to discussion. It took a while, but I got a reply and a positive reply. I only didn't set the plots in motion because members of my faction disagreed with them.
So, yes, I have seen problems, I feel Amia is going downhill, but the blame is not exclusively on the Staff.
We, as players, also have some measure of guilt.
We tend to get too comfortable with our favourite group of like-minded players and then our world seems to revolve around them, and if something happens to one of them we think things are tumbling down.
When Wiggan left, I didn't leave Amia because "omg Valki without Wiggan is an alien concept to me". I simply tried something new, met new players, found good RPers somewhere else...
Stop blaming it exclusively on the DMs. Think for a moment about what you have been doing and who have been in your favourite group currently and for how long they are there. Then, think about the influx of new players who are good from the start or that are slowly shaping their RP.
No, I am not sucking up to the DMs, nor being blind to the mess they cause sometimes. Some things they do piss me off and I do take it to some of them or Nekhy. It is a better way to solve than going around telling other players how unproffessional, or how nasty, or how whatever a DM was to me.
Mind, I am guilty of sometimes forgetting to do that, though, especially if I am hot-headed. But then I go back to the DM and apologize. I did so with Mahtan a couple of times now, maybe two or three. I did so with Tormie a few. I did once or twice with Ron waaaay back. I did it to Nekhy a few others.
Now, to stay on topic (anyone can PM me if they disagree with my opinion), my thoughts on the matter are pretty much summed up with brooksthegreat's post.
Everyone will have a different opinion on what constitutes good RP and their ideas will not necessarily match the others. Some think that given Amia's setting, hunting and RPing during hunts is the way to go. Others think socialization is another way. Others think that politics is the only way (AKA drow society and yet it has many other paths of RP besides the politics).
Quests would help increasing exploration of areas, but would not necessarily mean people would RP while performing said quests: some would, others would just hurry up to be done with it ASAP.
As well low XP will simply mean that those who just want to level, will grind more than before now. Caps will not aid in anything. Even if things are capped in classes or spells, we adapt and always find a way around, be it within rules or not. I am quite sure the Staff knows what I mean pretty well, and certainly some of the players know too.
I can sympathize with many aspects of Sokar's posts, as well with every other reply to him.
But the bottom line is: the concept of RP will always differ from one player to the other. It is kind of impossible to hope everyone will be like-minded in that sense.
Stop worrying about others' RP. RP the way you like and try to make yourself an example, or just RP the way you like and forget about the rest. People will adapt to your way, or find their own like-minded group. But for certain you will find at least one person who will have a similar concept to yours.
Pardon typos, grammar and stuff. I am writing from work.
_________________
BlackDahlya
Once Upon A Time Played
Adr'ael Ken'rahel, Auron Teken’ath, Aurora Mesodias, 'Daniel' Daoskinaxarijikkym, Eilin'ira, Helena Rios, Layla Faircurrent, May'Une Do'Ndar, Mellinda Tellus, Michael of Cliffside, Rizzen of Twilight, Valkirya d'Claddath
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Lally
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Posted: Wed, Mar 04 2009, 23:16 PM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Jun 2007
Location: Leather chair, USA. Tell me about your mother.
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Yossarin wrote: The Incognitos wrote: What have you got to lose? The respect of much of the playerbase save the one you admitted to perform the act, provided you, as a DM, even had their respect in the first place; a degree of perceived impartiality because clearly, in allowing the player to do whatever you did, you were playing favorites; the kindness of the marshmallow, tea party social RP'ers whose RP was interrupted by the player's instigating action that you allowed; the battle against those players with terrible ideas who swear their ideas are not terrible because the first player was allowed to do what they wanted; the compassion of your fellow DMs, who would wonder why the (censored) you let a player get away with murder; the ability to work with the design and development team who are now jumping down your throat because of the amount of work they have to do to keep from retconning the action; a significant degree of self-respect because in trying to bring roleplay to whole bunch of players who claim to be roleplayers, you brought them nothing but what they consider to be a headache because they either prefer their own PC-based plots and hate DM-based plots, or because they don't get to have the limelight in the story, and this causes you to question whether you are even doing your job right or not, since not only can you not make everyone happy some of the time, you only seem to succeed in make all of the people unhappy most of the time... Should I go on with what I've lost over the years? This seriously broke my heart. I don't wanna keep playing the care bear but for fucks sake people need to start looking at the big picture.
_________________
We are all here on earth to help others; what on earth the others are here for I don't know.
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BlackDahlya
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Posted: Wed, Mar 04 2009, 23:18 PM |
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Player
Joined: 17 Aug 2005
Location: Land of the Scorching Sun, Empowered by Global Warming
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Yossarin wrote: The Incognitos wrote: What have you got to lose? The respect of much of the playerbase save the one you admitted to perform the act, provided you, as a DM, even had their respect in the first place; a degree of perceived impartiality because clearly, in allowing the player to do whatever you did, you were playing favorites; the kindness of the marshmallow, tea party social RP'ers whose RP was interrupted by the player's instigating action that you allowed; the battle against those players with terrible ideas who swear their ideas are not terrible because the first player was allowed to do what they wanted; the compassion of your fellow DMs, who would wonder why the (censored) you let a player get away with murder; the ability to work with the design and development team who are now jumping down your throat because of the amount of work they have to do to keep from retconning the action; a significant degree of self-respect because in trying to bring roleplay to whole bunch of players who claim to be roleplayers, you brought them nothing but what they consider to be a headache because they either prefer their own PC-based plots and hate DM-based plots, or because they don't get to have the limelight in the story, and this causes you to question whether you are even doing your job right or not, since not only can you not make everyone happy some of the time, you only seem to succeed in make all of the people unhappy most of the time... Should I go on with what I've lost over the years?
I got a lot of optmistic feedback, through PMs, mostly, from players, some of them of hin, of elves, of human...
But the initial reply I got with that thread already got me disencouraged simply because of... everything Yossi just stated above.
It's not that those things ~could~ happen.
It is exactly because those things ~do~ happen.
In the end, I got myself thinking if, have I ever carried on with that plot, it would have been worth it: how many people would have liked, how many would have hated, how many would have silently griefed me, how many would have voiced their discontentment, how many would have been positive about the event.
Of course, that, if the plot I had in mind back then, would have been approved in the first place.
It was kind of painful to reply to the optmistic feeback I got saying that, "unfortunately, I will not carry on with that".
I could be wrong, but I did not get good vibes from the thread. Might be my inherent fear of conflict, but it just got that bad feeling in my gut.
_________________
BlackDahlya
Once Upon A Time Played
Adr'ael Ken'rahel, Auron Teken’ath, Aurora Mesodias, 'Daniel' Daoskinaxarijikkym, Eilin'ira, Helena Rios, Layla Faircurrent, May'Une Do'Ndar, Mellinda Tellus, Michael of Cliffside, Rizzen of Twilight, Valkirya d'Claddath
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The Incognitos
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Posted: Wed, Mar 04 2009, 23:56 PM |
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Player
Joined: 10 Dec 2007
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"and insert a degree of rationality and reason."
I put this in to encompass what Yoss said. I should have been more clear on this point. Not all ideas are good ones and that is another reason why good DMs are so helpful and so important. Yoss has told me on maybe five occasions that I can remember that 'that plan is not possible because of x, y and z reasons' and has been correct.
You have, Yoss, also told me on a couple of occasions that 'Yes, that may be possible, work on it'. This is the kind of thing I was referring to when I said rationality and reason. Having someone give you the consideration to evaluate an idea before saying no is what I was trying to get at.
I want to stress that the post was not intended as a 'you all suck' attack. Trying to be constructive, DMs are Amias Atticus Finch.
Also, i think the original position put forward by the Captain was that many of the things mentioned by Yoss are happening already.
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Shade of Blue
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Posted: Thu, Mar 05 2009, 2:10 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Aug 2008
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How about instead of slinging mud at each other here, we all hop on Amia right now and make the adventure happen?! Yeahhh!
Yeah, guys!
Guys?
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blackvswhite
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Posted: Thu, Mar 05 2009, 2:13 AM |
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Player
Joined: 08 Nov 2008
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Shade of Blue wrote: How about instead of slinging mud at each other here, we all hop on Amia right now and make the adventure happen?! Yeahhh!
Yeah, guys!
Guys?
QFE
this topic is ridiculous.
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Shade of Blue
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Posted: Thu, Mar 05 2009, 2:21 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Aug 2008
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blackvswhite wrote: QFE
this topic is ridiculous.
I don't know what QFE means, but we can still be friends.
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Thu, Mar 05 2009, 2:25 AM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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Shade of Blue wrote: How about instead of slinging mud at each other here, we all hop on Amia right now and make the adventure happen?! Yeahhh!
Yeah, guys!
Guys?
*whips mudball at you*
Sexist!
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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Dwagin
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Posted: Thu, Mar 05 2009, 3:19 AM |
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Player
Joined: 08 Aug 2006
Location: The Land of Nod
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People move on, it may disappoint but there are plenty of people about that are available to RP. There are names which have gone which I miss but there are also plenty of other names to spend time with, learn their stories and make merriment.
To me Amia feels, 'bigger' these days than it use to. And with that it amplifies the staff's job if it is in fact the case.
_________________
Dwagin [Duh-wa-GIN] N. - 1a. Small and cute thingum, particularly fond of four legged scaled creatures of the metalic and chromatic varieties.
-Extraordinarily ordinary in the mostest of ways.
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Selvec Darkon
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Posted: Thu, Mar 05 2009, 11:25 AM |
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Player
Joined: 12 Oct 2005
Location: On a Disk, carried by four elephants, which stand on a gigantic turtle.
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Cpt_Metalien_XC wrote: My point is, I'm not alone in this (I just seem to be the only one willing to say it publicly) but I and others have lost faith and trust in the DM team.
I've said it in different words, and through many arguments I've made recently, but without dragging other people into my problems, I can't really say it bluntly.
_________________
I keels u with my axe!
"Do ye know where the Holy-Flamin' Frost-brand Gronk-slayin' Vorpal Hammer o' woundin' an' returnin' an' Shootin'-Lightnin'-out-yer-bum is?"
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Dev Disco
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Posted: Thu, Mar 05 2009, 12:29 PM |
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HRM Chicken I of Amia
Joined: 02 Jun 2005
Location: Amsterdam
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Split from Sokar's thread because that one deserves better credit than this regular item.
My comment about this: make a formal complaint if a DM is treating you unfairly, or don't complain at all. Same goes for player vs player issues.
_________________
Say 'no' to JSBF!
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Craig deathwalker
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Posted: Thu, Mar 05 2009, 13:21 PM |
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Player
Joined: 04 Jun 2006
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If you don’t like it noone forces you to play. That was my first thought when reading the original post.To be honest that pretty much sums up why people have left amia. They didn’t like the effects that playing countless hours had on there life, or the fact that the gaming environment was not as enjoyable as it was.
I myself have drifted too and from the amia pool of players, but lets be honest. Amia has a vast amount of DM’s, the old DM team was a corrupt one, the new DM team has a large number of DM’s who are great role models for other players. Bar perhaps Tormak, but he is bitter because amia banned catgirls.
You can whine and give comparisons all you want, but unless you saw first hand what the last DM team was like you don’t have much to compare. You can say vast amounts of players are leaving because of the DM’s. That amias player base is dwindling, give facts, show figures. If your going to complain do it properly.
Lets get down to the route of the problem, your online friends are leaving. You views differ from a DM or two. Maybe you have few RL problems, suck it up move on. Make new online friends, you wont have history but so what that means there is more to find out about the new player base. Course perhaps your scared that new players wont like you, well again there door to leave is always waiting.
_________________ 
Ray's song! Thanks to Amarice, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ujzp9ffPwPM
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Galenson
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Posted: Thu, Mar 05 2009, 13:26 PM |
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Player
Joined: 26 May 2006
Location: Down Under, calculating your demise with blunt expressions.
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I'm partial on this because I've seen the worst of both worlds. I've seen DMs particularly on the forums behave like real arse holes but I've also seen things that make you say "I don't blame them for acting like that."
All I care is that a big number of players from my time have left recently and a whole other bunch of them are on the verge of going.
_________________
Plays:
"I'll think of something once Amia:EE drops."
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Nekhy
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Posted: Thu, Mar 05 2009, 13:34 PM |
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Player
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We've taken a bit passive role in controlling the forum discussions, which means there's more flames and mudthrowing from all sides, but hopefully also more openess. Not sure if it's been for the better or worse in the end, but it's been a different experiment at the very least. It's also the reason this topic wasn't moved away, mind.
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hendrack
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Posted: Thu, Mar 05 2009, 13:40 PM |
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Player
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Location: Vienna
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New people appear and other people go away in every aspect of life. If your boss at work is an asshat you either suck it up or leave. A work buddy told me about his old boss: if you would storm into his office, whine and complain about anything, the boss would listen to your words calm and not say any word. The boss then stood up with a smile on his face and said: all you say is true, but I don't care, there's the door if you don't like it. With that the boss leaves and you can either laugh about it or resign.
Last edited by hendrack on Thu, Mar 05 2009, 14:08 PM, edited 1 time in total.
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Really Evil Pigeon
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Posted: Thu, Mar 05 2009, 13:41 PM |
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Player
Joined: 01 Aug 2005
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I understand almost everyones point here, but have you noticed the year people who are complaining joined? and the people who left were long standing playerssome put there heart and soul into the server, maybe something we should consinder
and on the Dm front. yes a dm never can make a correct descision, and will always be blamed, except if you take everything away from one player and give it to another player, maybe thats a sort of wrong wrong descision, the thing that Yoss's post obviously sums up he doesn't want to do, only if it was done in the past.
Maybe this is an overflow of whats happening in cordor it is a pretty big shake up if it's half as big as the what the characters are saying. maybe it's the complete shift of the isles.. maybe it's the unbalancedness between both servers so you have trouble still going to and thro, who knows. maybe it's all adding up.
I have pretty much stopped caring myself about the server, no passion for it anymore, just for most the people who over the last 4 years have grown to be friends, lovers, lovers without there knowing, and I personally did leave for a very long time.
Saying that it is sad to see Dm's on Met's list, and not just dm's but dm's who put alot of work into the grove/kohl/tarkuul
just in the mood to air my thoughts without resulting in my usal ones
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Dev Disco
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Posted: Thu, Mar 05 2009, 13:56 PM |
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HRM Chicken I of Amia
Joined: 02 Jun 2005
Location: Amsterdam
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Galenson wrote: All I care is that a big number of players from my time have left recently and a whole other bunch of them are on the verge of going.
That worries me as well. It's for a lot of different reasons, though. I often try to do repairs if I have the feeling it's possible to do so, but sometimes you just run out of options.
I don't want to be an ass here, but how often did you post you had enough of it, Metallien? I also know you complain a lot about other players. For me that makes it rather hard to look at your post with an unbiased view. I just think "O, well, is it that time of the month again?". There's no annoyance of spite in that thought, it's just... well, I am getting a bit worn out by these 'my way or the highway' comments.
Anyway, some people leave because of DM actions, but the majority is related to a simple issue: muling and/or twinking. We had a rather infamous incident with you, Metallien. It's a long time ago but in the end it boiled down to you saying you didn't do it, and as far as we could see it every bit of evidence pointed at you doing it (which doesn't say you did it, but we simply can't say "O, if HE says it isn't so, it isn't so").
Nobody was happy about that incident and I made a system that traces the possession history of every single item in the game. You can jump up and down now, but everybody knows the penalty on twinking, and when you are caught you are guilty. There's no escape there, and if you get upset and leave you don't have anybody to blame but yourself. This doesn't mean we like people to leave. On the contrary, we hope people simply don't twink/mule, so we wont' have to strip anybody.
That said, there will be incidents between DMs and players that cause people to leave. There will be incidents between DMs that cause people to leave (this actually accounts for a far higher level of refugees). There will be incidents between players that will cause people to leave. That's how it is, and you won't eliminate the chances of that happening unless you got exactly one person playing.
I can imagine that some people will recognise things or think this is flaming, but I don't mean it that way. I think it's good to talk about this in a calm manner, even if you name incidents and people.
_________________
Say 'no' to JSBF!
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Galenson
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Posted: Thu, Mar 05 2009, 14:02 PM |
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Player
Joined: 26 May 2006
Location: Down Under, calculating your demise with blunt expressions.
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Really Evil Pigeon wrote: I have pretty much stopped caring myself about the server.
The simplest way to say it is that a good portion of pre 2006 players (not all of them, just most of them I know) are very conservative. They stick to their own group of mates who've been around as long as they have and don't bother taking that step to introduce new blood. I'll testify to that. I still hang around with Metalien, Val'Rok, Crusty and Selvec Darkon and I don't go out of my way to break the group circle unless I'm forced to due to leading a faction.
Problem is when the circle starts to deteriorate. Players leave coz they're bored or they get banned or they just can't give a flying feth anymore it causes a chain reaction. All of a sudden the others in the cirlce realise "oh crap, I might have to start mingling with these newbies" which is a hard transition which either ends up in them liking it and staying or leaving with their mates.
What Met's pointed out is that all these more conservative groups are leaving and leaving suddenly which is rather strange. If all of them left because they couldn't get over "the good ol' days" when everything was more interesting for them, that's fine and I can understand. It's when they start leaving because of changing trends which is what's alarming.
_________________
Plays:
"I'll think of something once Amia:EE drops."
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ClockworkRed
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Posted: Thu, Mar 05 2009, 14:03 PM |
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Player
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
Location: Nice city, good beer
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Who are these important key players that left? And did they really leave because they got fed up with the server or did they just get busy in RL?
_________________ Playing atm Eowariel (Elven archer) / Gwendolyn (Monk)
Inactive: Hector (Triadic knight)
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Dev Disco
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Posted: Thu, Mar 05 2009, 14:04 PM |
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HRM Chicken I of Amia
Joined: 02 Jun 2005
Location: Amsterdam
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Mind that Met's list contains people that left in a period of 2,5 years for very different reasons.
_________________
Say 'no' to JSBF!
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TheGoddessOfAmazing©
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Posted: Thu, Mar 05 2009, 14:21 PM |
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Player
Joined: 20 Jan 2007
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I didnt have time to read this thread in entirety, but. . . I do have one comment. On a server this large, people are going to leave. Frequently. And new people will come. And stay. And probably eventually leave. It's the nature of the beast.
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Silvarus
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Posted: Thu, Mar 05 2009, 14:26 PM |
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Player
Joined: 23 Sep 2005
Location: Jyväskylä, Finland, Europe
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There has always been drama and there will always be drama whenever two players come together to role play online.
_________________
Gagis Silvarna, the Robocop with wings who shoots lasers from his fingertips
Lily Havthorn, the Waukeenar
Silwe, the elf
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Sokar Rostau
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Posted: Thu, Mar 05 2009, 14:49 PM |
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Player
Joined: 05 Sep 2007
Location: Australia
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Some of the people in Met's list have been on in the last three days. And isn't Braxton or Oarthias or someone on military service for a year?
I left another server, when I was a faction leader and it was full 24/7, in part because of the DM's attitudes. I was, unknowingly at the time, part of an exodus that has seen that server drop to a max of 20% capacity in peak times, and 10% capacity as an average. What I am saying is that I have seen DMs irreparably damage a server and I do not see anything of the sort happening on Amia.
Players feeling singled out or ignored on a server the size of Amia is to be expected. Live with it. If you get punished for doing something it's because you did something, not because of who you are, and you have no way of knowing that another 20 people were not punished that day for the same thing. If you are feeling ignored consider the fact that there are 80+ other people vying for their attentions that are being ignored while the DMs are attending to you.
And to reiterate the point, people come and go. They move on to other games or RL priorities. Some return, some don't. That's life in online gaming.
_________________
"Where's my pony?"
"I'm sorry, baby, I had to feed that pony to a dragon."
"Oh. Whose horse is this?"
"It's a Warhorse, baby."
"Whose Warhorse is this?"
"Zed's"
"Who's Zed?"
"Zed's dead, baby. Zed's dead."
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Lord-Hadeis
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Posted: Thu, Mar 05 2009, 14:59 PM |
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Player
Joined: 02 Feb 2009
Location: Netherlands, Schoonhoven
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I personally like Amia and the DM's running it just fine!
Sure I have some things I don't like but they are more grounded into the shadow realm mythos and way it was thought up then related to players, and even those annoyances relating to players, well that's part of roleplay it isn't a happy world, isn't suppose to be. You're suppose to run into a yerk so now and then, you either ignore him or find a good in game excuse to kill the person.
And of course players leave, after all it's a game and everything takes priority over a game, and heck if a high standing long playing player leaves, that just means oppertunities for those that remain behind.
So stop whining, if you don't like it, no one forces you to play
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Dev Disco
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Posted: Thu, Mar 05 2009, 15:08 PM |
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HRM Chicken I of Amia
Joined: 02 Jun 2005
Location: Amsterdam
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Sokar Rostau wrote: I left another server, when I was a faction leader and it was full 24/7, in part because of the DM's attitudes. I was, unknowingly at the time, part of an exodus that has seen that server drop to a max of 20% capacity in peak times, and 10% capacity as an average. What I am saying is that I have seen DMs irreparably damage a server and I do not see anything of the sort happening on Amia.
I suppose you are talking about BoB. I should whack myself for saying bad things about another server, but that's a classic case of how not to handle player-DM issues. I doubt it is even possible to replicate the PR disaster they had a few months ago in Amia. It's really a shame and such a bummer for Phann (their developer) to see your work go to the drain like that.
_________________
Say 'no' to JSBF!
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xordae
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Posted: Thu, Mar 05 2009, 15:20 PM |
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Player
Joined: 01 Jul 2005
Location: Germany
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Nekh wrote: We've taken a bit passive role in controlling the forum discussions, which means there's more flames and mudthrowing from all sides, but hopefully also more openess. Not sure if it's been for the better or worse in the end, but it's been a different experiment at the very least. It's also the reason this topic wasn't moved away, mind.
Sounds good. My only complaint doesn't concern the game, but forum behaviour. Certain DMs come across as arrogant and belittling towards player opinions that don't go well with their own. This is insofar dumb as the player can't respond in kind because of fear that he'll get his fingers slapped. Come off your high horses please, thanks. Without players, you would have no reason to exist and work here.
IG, everything's fine by my experience.
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Wyjyn
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Posted: Thu, Mar 05 2009, 15:20 PM |
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Player
Joined: 11 Jan 2007
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What happened?
_________________
Wyjyn: Loving all of you (and above all Disco) since 11 Jan 2007.
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Dev Disco
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Posted: Thu, Mar 05 2009, 15:23 PM |
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HRM Chicken I of Amia
Joined: 02 Jun 2005
Location: Amsterdam
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xordae wrote: Nekh wrote: We've taken a bit passive role in controlling the forum discussions, which means there's more flames and mudthrowing from all sides, but hopefully also more openess. Not sure if it's been for the better or worse in the end, but it's been a different experiment at the very least. It's also the reason this topic wasn't moved away, mind. Sounds good. My only complaint doesn't concern the game, but forum behaviour. Certain DMs come across as arrogant and belittling towards player opinions that don't go well with their own. This is insofar dumb as the player can't respond in kind because of fear that he'll get his fingers slapped. Come off your high horses please, thanks. Without players, you would have no reason to exist and work here. IG, everything's fine by my experience. Jesus, stop whining. We have to answer 500 posts a day, you know?!
Irony isn't black or white, except now.
_________________
Say 'no' to JSBF!
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xordae
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Posted: Thu, Mar 05 2009, 15:29 PM |
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Player
Joined: 01 Jul 2005
Location: Germany
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It also states in the rules that you have to be respectful towards your others when you post on the forum, and by posting here, you agree with the rules automatically. I do respect all the workload you guys get, but that kinda was on the paper that read "Do you want to become a DM?" under "Things you'll likely have to endure with little to no extra reward". It's still not an excuse for d*ckery IMO.
Also I thought this was the whine thread.. am I doing it wrong? 
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Lally
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Posted: Thu, Mar 05 2009, 15:40 PM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Jun 2007
Location: Leather chair, USA. Tell me about your mother.
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Somethin' tells me big daddy Disco was shooting for irony 
_________________
We are all here on earth to help others; what on earth the others are here for I don't know.
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Wyjyn
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Posted: Thu, Mar 05 2009, 15:46 PM |
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Player
Joined: 11 Jan 2007
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I think the biggest problems are caused by differing views on how amia is.
I personally see amia more like a public park or beach, etc. Sometimes it seems to me like the DMs treat it as though its a museum full of precious yet easily destroyed artifacts or something, the reaction seems disproportionate and so what generally happens is players react back disproportionately, in turn you get these situations where a pebble turns into everest.
The issue I find is often caused by the accusing tone of the DM team in their response, either in their IC response or their direct OOC response. I remember once I passed on some arrows to a character, maybe I sold them I cannot recall but my char doesnt care about gold so I sell cheap. Anyway, so I begin speaking to this DM about a potential plot while the character I sold them to is in the room. Turns out the DM was looking through the inventory of char I sold them to, then begins getting stuck into me....for a solid 30 minutes about punishments etc for giving lowbies powerful gear, twinking rules and other lame stuff. I also didnt get the quest, which about 10 people in all had been develop for months and it was damn easy to do as well, a DM on my last server did the exact same thing impromptu.
I'd say about 25 - 50% of the DM team act like that, really. I use 25 - 50 because a lot of the newer DMs seem more relaxed in general, but I dont know for certain. The reason I can last here compared to others is that I am a beliver in the quote: hope for the best, expect the worst. I do expect the worst.
_________________
Wyjyn: Loving all of you (and above all Disco) since 11 Jan 2007.
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Carter
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Posted: Thu, Mar 05 2009, 16:14 PM |
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Player
Joined: 15 Aug 2005
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xordae wrote: Certain DMs come across as arrogant and belittling towards player opinions that don't go well with their own. This is insofar dumb as the player can't respond in kind because of fear that he'll get his fingers slapped. Come off your high horses please, thanks. Without players, you would have no reason to exist and work here.
I actually agree with this. It seems fairly common, especially in an argument-type thread, that a DM will say something very insulting. Now, I don't particularly approve of a DM -ever- acting that way, considering the way players generally look up to them, but oftentimes, I've seen retorts with threats of locked topics or bans, which makes all DMs, including those who are consistently nice (or at least use some level of politesse in their posts), essentially invulnerable to any repercussions for their actions, as players begin to fear responding because they don't want to get the thread locked, or get banned, or whatever.
Even writing this post, part of me is expecting a, "We don't do that, you stupid cunt, drop it." Not in those exact words, but I'm sure you get my meaning. While it does indeed seem as though the DMs have relaxed on the point of player arguments, I still see many DMs as quick to jump down the throat of someone who dares to defend themselves, or sometimes even to just stand their ground.
That said, I haven't been IG in a month. A month ago, however, the server was quite fine. I had my complaints, of course, and there were those DMs that I would avoid like the plague, but that's always been the case. Amia has never been perfect, and it never will be, but unless it's tripped, rolled down a hill, hit a bump, fallen off a plateu into the yawning gulf below, and been eaten by hungry sharks like so much chum, then it's certainly not bad, either, and in most ways, it's all pretty good.
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Talon
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Posted: Thu, Mar 05 2009, 16:38 PM |
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Player
Joined: 18 Feb 2006
Location: Texas, where else?
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Stopped reading the thread after I didn't recognize a single name of those epic players who left you mentioned. Sorry, I don't see any problems.
_________________ 
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Kjetta
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Posted: Thu, Mar 05 2009, 16:40 PM |
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Player
Joined: 11 Nov 2006
Location: A Clean, Well-Lighted Place
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To those who thought it funny to mention names: have some class!
_________________ To err is human; to forgive divine, but VENGEANCE IS MINE!
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ILoveIceCream
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Posted: Thu, Mar 05 2009, 16:47 PM |
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Player
Joined: 05 Apr 2006
Location: California
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I just highlighted certain letters....*shrug* they just happened to spell a name
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The Golden Gnome
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Posted: Thu, Mar 05 2009, 17:05 PM |
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Player
Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
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It's a bit elitist to claim that they aren't as good as the rest of us.. Heck, I was a terrible RP'er at first. Still am, according to some :'-D
_________________
"People that talk in metaphors ought to shampoo my crotch." - Jack Nicholson.
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