AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic - The REAL Problem with Amia

Cori wrote:

As has been said, this is an ADVENTURE game. Not Little House on the Prairie. Levelling should BE part of rp, should BE your adventure.

But I am here to adventure, not have a soap opera. I have never hit max level, on any character, and I have started many many new ones in my years here.

I have yet to make a pc that held lasting roleplay value to me. The one time I did, an unfortunately long absence meant that eeryone I roleplayed with during my levelling, was gone. It made it hard to maintain a feel for the character, when her life basically had to restart. That has frequently happened with my characters, unfortunately.

And if I ever do hit 30, i do not forsee continuing that character for long, because adventuring to me, means going out and exploring new places, aquiring new treasures, and learning new things (levelling). Once I've got all the treasures of any interest, explored everywhere, and can no longer level more learning new abilities or spells, there'll be little adventure left for me, even if there is still craploads of Little House on the Prairie RP to be had.

This CAN be Little House on the Prarie, cause people could RP as they see fit.

Soap Opera style RP is exactly the stuff that KEEPS Amia running as long as it has...not the hunting areas and discussions held in the few moments before you grind out more monsters.

If you have yet to make a character that has lasting RP value.....do you understand that you've just said pretty much ALL your characters have no RP worth to you? In actuality in that same paragraph you actually prove yourself truthful by erasing a character...just because the characters friends didn't show up to hunt with you. If you want your characters to have lasting RP value you can start by valuing your own creations. I could care less how many friends disappear OR how long I've been away....when I come back it's business as usual.

If EVERY SINGLE ONE of my characters friends all died....guess what? I wouldn't delete my character. I'd RP I lost my friends, then RP trying to make new ones.

You got mad when I said that someone who doesn't play a character long after they pass lvl 30 is a weak RPr. But by your own words none of your characters have ever "held any lasting RP value" to you...and guess what.....you didn't play them long after hitting 30...point proven.

For you, once you have received that Vorpal blade, know all the spells, and lvld to your peak, that's it...the end.

For me, once I get the Vorpal Blade, know all the spells, and lvl to my peak, that's it...the beginning. Now I could put all that stuff to some juicy, "As Faerun Turns" soap opera style, and might I add, DEEPER RP than typical monster bashing adventure crap which, after killing the thousandth demon, has no RP value for ANY of my characters.

Geld Yaztran wrote:

You got mad when I said that someone who doesn't play a character long after they pass lvl 30 is a weak RPr. But by your own words none of your characters have ever "held any lasting RP value" to you...and guess what.....you didn't play them long after hitting 30...point proven.

Point proven????? not really, you just repeated your opinion.

An idea was here. 30-feat

But as it stands NWN would just make it a pain to implement.

Oh well.

If you didn't take the time to read previous posts, then please try not respond with uninformative one liners. Obviously I didn't repeat myself I validated my orginal thought by pointing out that the first person to respond to the post:

1) Never played a character after lvl 30, becaue they either lost friends, got weapons, or have all the spells.

2) Has admitted that they also HAVE NEVER played a character with ANY LASTING RP VALUE TO THE CREATOR OF SAID CHARACTERS.

Meaning: Their characters were so uninteresting, that the person who made the character got bored with them shortly after getting (judging from the above post) some sort of material weapon, spell, or lvl.

If you're going to set, boring, meaningless, and easily attainable goals for your character....expect them to have....well......less character.

I know that I have only one lvl 28 character. I have played that character when I started Amia. I will NEVER stop playing that character on my own volition. He has been a lvl 28 for a couple years and his most engaging moments of RP were long after I peaked his lvl. I value his RP and best be known when I come back SOMEONE will know or remember him.

And his goal is nothing less than dominating all of Amia....or destroying it.

*edited* Oh, so to add to my things that make RP great I'll add this: Make you character OPEN ENDED.

Then you won't have to worry about your character becoming uninteresting once they finally get that blade, spell, or even vengeance.

Geld Yaztran wrote:

If you didn't take the time to read previous posts, then please try not respond with uninformative one liners. Obviously I didn't repeat myself I validated my orginal thought by pointing out that the first person to respond to the post:

1) Never played a character after lvl 30, becaue they either lost friends, got weapons, or have all the spells.

2) Has admitted that they also HAVE NEVER played a character with ANY LASTING RP VALUE TO THE CREATOR OF SAID CHARACTERS.

Meaning: Their characters were so uninteresting, that the person who made the character got bored with them shortly after getting (judging from the above post) some sort of material weapon, spell, or lvl.

If you're going to set, boring, meaningless, and easily attainable goals for your character....expect them to have....well......less character.

I know that I have only one lvl 28 character. I have played that character when I started Amia. I will NEVER stop playing that character on my own volition. He has been a lvl 28 for a couple years and his most engaging moments of RP were long after I peaked his lvl. I value his RP and best be known when I come back SOMEONE will know or remember him.

And his goal is nothing less than dominating all of Amia....or destroying it.

Actually I did read your previous posts.

Some clarification:
first of all the thought that people that switch characters a lot cannot RP well (the point Cori singled out) is the point I didn't see proven.

Further some of the RP i've had during hunting makes all RP I've experienced on amia blunt and stale. (props for this goes to Redfren, Troxa, "random friend of Troxa whose name I keep forgetting" and "whoever played Curly")

In my experience, the RP outside of hunting/random encounters is repetitive, seen before, dull,... some very small portion excluded.
Rather then RP that's been 50% (or more) pre-planned, I like to see those little gems that come from an unexpected encounter or idea.

Big schemes and plots... no thanks.
A small adventure is much more refreshing for me.

I'm most likely not the only person thinking like that, so to say all these people cannot RP: that's the point I didn't see proven.

Also, you talk about setting goals, what if that is not the style of any character I make here. I have some goals set IRL and this here is entertainment, I don't want to work here so I don't set work up for myself.

Oookay. The original post was too long for me to bother with and I admit I didn't read much past the first page of responses, but I think I have at least the gist of what this is all about.

I really don't see how lowering XP given will make people hunt less. I think they'd actually hunt MORE because they want to so desperately to be Epic.

If they were grinding for weeks before, they'd still grind if XP was reduced. IMO, this would do absolutely NOTHING to 'fix' this problem you claim the server has.

Personally, I despise hunting. It bores me to death OOCly. ICly I can't think of a reason my character, a pansy Sunite sorcerer with a wife and 6 children, would run up and down a mountain during a snow storm to murder Mommy and Daddy giants and then steal their gold and clothing and leave their corpses to rot on the mountainside while their giant children watch on in stunned horror from caves or wherever the Frost Giants live.

Still, I think your logic here is a lil flawed.

In my opinion, saying you're only Roleplaying when your character is murdering and pillaging to get a shiny sword or a suit of armor is like saying that you're not Roleplaying unless you view your character as nothing but a walking suit of armor that stabs things with no motivation or reason for doing so beyond wanting to find out what's around the next corner.

There is nothing wrong with wanting your character to be deeper than that. Roleplay doesn't have to be about exploring and killing, it can be about character development and interaction with your character's surroundings beyond something as simple as figuring out what they need to kill to get something shiny.

Can this be done while hunting? Yes.

Does it have to be? No.

It's fine if you don't think social interactions with other characters in Cordor or Bendir or wherever are for you and it's okay if you like to roleplay the adventure part, but I don't think it's okay to bash everyone else by saying they aren't RPing unless they're doing what you like.

In short... Do what you like with people who like to do it too.

EDIT: I was reading back through the thread and I noticed something Selmak said about 'making a name' for your character or some such.

First of all.. I think this is an IC thing. Not something to bring up and debate over on the forums. If you want your character to be remembered and have a 'name', then do something with them that gives them one. Old deeds are forgotten? Do something new.

ICly, Krin has saved the plane and Cordor and Uhm and the island and the orphans and blah blah blah blah. Usually, nobody remembers any of it but him and a few others. So, because my character believes he deserves statues made of gold all over the island for said 'heroic deeds', he brings them up and tells people about them.

I could go into a big rant about all this, but I'm lazy and I need to go soon so.. in short...

If you want to make a name for your character, then do so ICly. If people forget, do something new or remind them of the old. ICly.

After reading through and keeping up with this thread for a while now, I still can't understand what the point was, exactly.. or what was hoped to accomplish.

People who like powergaming/boss farming/etc aren't going to change their style of play due to a lengthy debate in the forums and often the worst (read: most annoying) offenders don't read this stuff anyway. People who enjoy playing The Bold and the Elven aren't going to become more violent and adventurous just because someone has goaded them.

That being said, what's wrong with either? We call this an RP server because that's what we like to see, but truthfully what constitutes proper roleplaying is a subject that will never be settled to any measure. You can argue what characters are and aren't supposed to do, but that's moot as well. If someone wants to run their character as a treasure-hungry adventurer, bold explorer, or bordering-on-OCD crusader, more power to them. If you want your character to play a priest, a musician, or a housewife, you know what? That's your prerogative.

If you get stuck with a group that does nothing but level-grind and that's not your thing, make an IC excuse to go back and retire for the evening. If you're stuck with a group and the conversation has turned to their abusive childhood, their bad relationships, and you secretly think on the other end they are sobbing to a hawthorn heights album, make up an excuse to leave.

Children often come to this.. insightful and provocative question at some point coming up.. deep-thinkers and philosophers every one of them. How do I know what you see when you see the color blue is the same thing as I see when I see the color blue? The only answer that can possibly be had is that you can't. The world will forever be a matter of perspective.

There is a Buddhist teaching that stress and suffering are simply the mind's resistance to what is. Just live and let live and you'll have a much happier time all around.

So what is wrong with RP in amia? Not a thing. Are there occasional logic-quandries? Sadly, yes.. but let everyone else decide their own color blue.

brooksthegreat wrote:

How do I know what you see when you see the color blue is the same thing as I see when I see the color blue? The only answer that can possibly be had is that you can't. The world will forever be a matter of perspective.

Let everyone else decide their own color blue.

I think this is a pretty life changing quote right here. >_>

I have to agree entirely with brooksthegreat.

*vigorous round of applause*

Very well said, brooksthegreat.

Krin wrote:

I was reading back through the thread and I noticed something Selmak said about 'making a name' for your character or some such.

First of all.. I think this is an IC thing. Not something to bring up and debate over on the forums. If you want your character to be remembered and have a 'name', then do something with them that gives them one. Old deeds are forgotten? Do something new.

ICly, Krin has saved the plane and Cordor and Uhm and the island and the orphans and blah blah blah blah. Usually, nobody remembers any of it but him and a few others. So, because my character believes he deserves statues made of gold all over the island for said 'heroic deeds', he brings them up and tells people about them.

The point I was trying to make is that there's an unhealthy amount of amnesia regarding what your character did 'last week' thus requiring your character to do something memorable 'every week' thus creating more things to remember. You could have been selling ice cream to goblins last week or something equally wacky and if you don't jog someone's memory with something like 'The Man from Vanilla' they probably won't remember.

Having a tagline is not about telling everyone the whole story all over again, it's about jogging the memory or even giving their memory a hook to hang things on. You will still have to fill them in now and then ICly but people will remember things that even you may have forgotten, if your story/character has a catchy catch-all phrase.

I have just as much problems with recalling characters and past events as the next person. We see plenty of players who for example omit a character biography, and that presents a similar problem. I'm not saying a bio is essential to remember a character, but it reflects your own style and method of putting information across. If someone doesn't want to help me remember their character, that's entirely their choice, but it is the lazy choice.

Geld Yaztran wrote:

If you're going to set, boring, meaningless, and easily attainable goals for your character....expect them to have....well......less character.

Quote:

Rras: My goal is never going to be able to be met in life, but still I strive for it, die for it if it comes to it.

Person: Why? You know you'll fail.

Rras: What a glorious failure it will be though..

This is like standing in the middle of an evangelist convention; 'play it my way!', 'No ignore him! Mine is the one true way and he is doomed, doooomed' , 'Both of them are wrong, bow to my way of playing... Bow!'.

Some people like their Soap Opera, others like building a tough character and playing it through to max level without a mass of RP. One thing is certain though, building a soapbox out of another players humble opinion and using it to tell people that they ruin the server by not following your mode of Amia operation is juvenile and conceited.

No more bickering, be constructive (post my way...).

Last edited by FA_Frey_XC on Wed, Mar 04 2009, 5:50 AM, edited 1 time in total.

First of all, people have been apparently mis-interpreting some of my posts as "showboating" or "bragging", so I would like to set that straight real quick, as it is actually relevant to the topic at hand.

I, too, have played the *same* character on Amia for over four years. I have two other "alts" - one monk who's been level 18 for three years, and one Cleric who's been level 8 for three years. I have logged into these two and actually RP'ed them a total of 2 times in the last 3 years.

This one character I've played consistantly and I've dedicated more time to this game and playing the character than probably any other game than Starfleet Command (and I run / own the code to EAW / SFC3) - and in doing so that character has done quite a few things that merit him "statues of gold" (although not in Cordor

) in his mind too... but as a player I don't view it as such.

So when I talk about my char, if I come off as "bragging", please understand it's not such, I'm proud of him, and what he's accomplished on just my own luck and ingenuity.. and I think I've earned that. He's been 30 for probably 3 years now... and his character development hasn't stopped, it's continued and during some events greatly accelerated and / or changed him in ways I'd never have imagined!

Each time any of those events happened, I didn't think "Oh Oh Oh, My character is going to get soooo much prestige.. how can I max it out?"

Each time any of those events happened, I just role played the character, just as if he was in Cordor, talking to Xaviera about having lunch at the Y.

Each time any of those events happened, or with the plots I've started, I've asked myself "How can I involve the maximal number of people in this plot?",not "How can I showboat the entire plot and look as if I'm Supah # 1 G?"

And in doing so, I came out of the RP feeling really really good about it... proud of it, not because my character got any "accolades" or "awesomezorz rewards", but because it was FUN, and people I didn't really know very well commented on how consistant my character was... and how much depth he has. This wouldn't be possible if it were not for the OTHER awesome players whose characters have made this possible.

Many times, my character was defeated, but I quite like "Death" RP as it proves the point of my characters humanity, or weakness. The Universe seeks to balance itself in all things, and as such each character should have weaknesses as well as incredible powah. Sometimes failing builds character, and leads into character growth that you had previously not seen.

Such was the case when my character was literally cut in two in the Abyss (by a Drow w/ Dev Crit) for killing another drow female while in his battle rage after defeating another Drow psionicist who had stolen an artifact from Tarkuul. He decided he would never be "cut in half again" after he was raised... and thus his dwelving into the Pale Arts even deeper, to his current PM levels (he was a Wiz 23 / PM 7 at that time) so that he would be immune to such blows.

He didn't find the artifact. He failed.

How about the time he was killed in Brog? His body and Gurths were dumped in the Temple in Cordor, but not raised, and there they sat for over an HOUR, being spit on, laughed at, and otherwise made fun of before a DM possessed a Temple cleric and raised the two.

You didn't see me logging out in a huff.

Geld Yaztran wrote:

I know that I have only one lvl 28 character. I have played that character when I started Amia. I will NEVER stop playing that character on my own volition. He has been a lvl 28 for a couple years and his most engaging moments of RP were long after I peaked his lvl. I value his RP and best be known when I come back SOMEONE will know or remember him.

*edited* Oh, so to add to my things that make RP great I'll add this: Make you character OPEN ENDED..

Then you won't have to worry about your character becoming uninteresting once they finally get that blade, spell, or even vengeance.

That point I completely agree with, and that is that for me, life didn't end at 30 - one chapter in my characters development closed, but another opened up, and this was entirely due to my rp and the awesome RP of those who I had the honour of associating with, and those who I do still, to this very day.

Stop thinking about you 100%, just try 75% you and 25% the other person.

If everyone did this, Chaos the server would be even better than it already is!!!

Regards,

If there's one roleplayer who should get Best Roleplayer aware, it has got to be Frey's player. One day, maybe, I might be as good as him. Why is he good? He involves so many other people, emotes well etc and makes everyone feel like they fit into a grand scheme. He's an inclusive player, not an exclusive one. Yet, he plays an evil villain.

I would say that if we want to improve the server overall, we need to look beyond our own characters and be inclusive more. I don't think game mechanics alone can do that.

I'd say the server has now got the quantity required, the critical mass to make something truly amazing, we just need to mobilise and improve the quality of our own RP as roleplayers, making it fun for everyone around us.

Yeah, more of that.

soundofastream wrote:

If there's one roleplayer who should get Best Roleplayer aware, it has got to be Frey's player. One day, maybe, I might be as good as him. Why is he good? He involves so many other people, emotes well etc and makes everyone feel like they fit into a grand scheme. He's an inclusive player, not an exclusive one. Yet, he plays an evil villain.

...

Yeah, more of that. ;)

I agree.

Some of you have blatantly missed my point.

This was not meant to be "another one of those topics" that pop up every other week about a lack of "RP" on Amia. Almost invariably those topics consist of people demanding others to stand around in town posing instead of interacting with the environment our Devs have spent their free time creating for us. The thread about nerfing Heal is indicative of this attitude where there are multiple comments implying that people should be forced to "RP" by preventing them from going out into the environment. How exactly does someone soloing Windreaper on B-mia have any impact on your "RP" in Cordor? How does a party killing Beholders on A-mia hurt your "RP" in Wiltun?

My point was similar but from the opposite side. People need to get rid of the idea that RP only happens in town once you've reached ECL 30. RP does not start at ECL 30, it starts at level 2 and continues all the way to 30 and beyond. The problem on Amia, as I see it, is that far too many people treat levels 2-29 as an OOC obstacle that needs to be overcome ASAP before RP can begin and then have the temerity to complain about people that want to interact with the environment given us by our Dev's.

Some in this thread have said words to the effect that some people want to RP something deeper than bashing monsters on the head and prefer to RP a character with depth that has relationships with other people. Now, aside from the cynical snipe inherent in those comments, I want to point out that that is what I am talking about too.

Relationships do not only consist of kissing horned lesbians in Cordor or getting married and having children with that pretty Elf. You form a relationship with those you adventure with regularly. I am not talking about an OOC relationship, nor am I talking about an intimate relationship (although that's possible), I am talking about an IC relationship between a Dwarf and a Human that have been side by side defending their Elf friend from hordes of Bandits. I have played with people that I really dislike on an OOC basis, but our characters have formed bonds - they have an IC relationship that my OOC disdain for them can't undo. Likewise, I have characters that hate my OOC friends' characters with a passion for IC reasons and we never party together. I would even go so far as to say that a party of people that are OOC strangers can be more rewarding, from an IC perspective, than a party made up of friends. These are IC relationships forged in the field through shared experiences and have a lot more depth to them than characters who met in the rain in Cordor and only ever see each other to gossip while sharing an ale or a kiss.

These are the kinds of relationships I want to see more of, but they are never going to become the norm while people hold on to the notion that "RP" and "hunting" are two different things that happen in two different areas of the module. I re-read this thread tonight and realised that, in editing my original post (yes, it was edited and is a LOT shorter than it could have been) I omitted one of the points about lowering XP. Less XP and more random quests were not meant to be taken as separate things, but as two sides of the same coin.

The intention is for people to be out there seeking adventure and getting small XP for wandering around killing regular spawns, but then getting a large XP (and item) reward for completing random quests. Because the quests are random there is never a guarantee that you will find them, you might spend a week without finding a quest, earning 20XP per kill, and then suddenly get a quest that rewards you with 20000XP, an Epic item and a piece of your character's history in the form of an adventure had with your IC friends.

I had more to say but I'd better leave it for another post...

I am not sure what your ultimate goal is. What do you want to see happening if the changes you propose are made?

Quote:

My point was similar but from the opposite side. People need to get rid of the idea that RP only happens in town once you've reached ECL 30. RP does not start at ECL 30, it starts at level 2 and continues all the way to 30 and beyond. The problem on Amia, as I see it, is that far too many people treat levels 2-29 as an OOC obstacle that needs to be overcome ASAP before RP can begin and then have the temerity to complain about people that want to interact with the environment given us by our Dev's.

This I find very recognisable. I have filed this type of player under the S of 'snob'.

Dev Disco wrote:

I am not sure what your ultimate goal is. What do you want to see happening if the changes you propose are made?

I think I can summarize: "Slower XP gain would mean characters won't fall out of level range of each other as quickly, which will naturally lead to the same people partying with each other over a longer period of time, which will lead to more satisfying RP as characters interact with the same people for a protracted period."

I think a similar effect could be gained by increasing the maximum party level range.

(EDIT: This is because while I think Sokar Rostau argues his case well, I personally would not like to see XP slow to a trickle.)

Slower xp gain will result in stagnation, it'd directly affect people who want/need more than one PC.

You already have to do an obnoxious amount of grinding to hit level cap if you fight on level/close level mobs.

Lowering the XP amount per kill and having high powered quests seems like a nice idea.......

Until you realize that if you died by some pvping jerk, that now unless you get some quest, you'll have to grindout twice as many monsters as before to put yourself back to square one.

Also note that in order to make these "random quests", there would be a lot of scripting involved, and everytime a person went to one of these NPCs with random over-powered quests(which is what everyone would do instead of hunting), it would have to go through scripts of who they're talking to, what class they are, what lvl.....etc. Could you imagine the lag it'd cause for just thirty players to go on quests?

I know what it is you want Sokar. You want some good RP IC explanations for the hunting. But using the DMs tools to mke some NPC send you on a quest is not going to help. If anything it'll make it worse, because then it takes the need for you to make your own reasons for doing what it is you do.

However....repitition is a quick fun killer. So I'd recommend that near the transitions or borders between hunting areas, that the spawns be more like the ones in the rat cave outside Ultrinnan, and depending how close it is to another transition determines what kind of spawn and how many will spawn....to add a little randomness/realism.

My only concern is passing those same spawn points, with the same creatures spawning, again and again.

As far as RP is concerned it's simple as this: You can't tell people how to RP and if a persons RP is bad(which is actually based on a persons opinion), and NPC and some quests won't make it better.

This is good RP: Well met friend *tips his cap*
This is good RP: *glares at them silently and pulls out his sword*
This is good RP: You should die drow...just cause you're drow. *smirks*

And THIS is bad RP: Dude what level are you?;) I totally got a vorpal blade of death dude, and I'm gonna kill you! LMFAO!!

As long as they pretend to be their character, they're RPing. Role playing means exactly that: playing a role. If you don't like how someone Role's, too bad! But until they stop pretending to be who they are they are doing fine enough RP. Role with the punches and you'll be fine.

HOLY HELL!! I was on the toilet, when I just discovered the cause of almost ALL OOC issues, the reason why RP has degraded, but unfortunately, no answer to solve it.

It can all be summed up in ONE word: EXPECTATIONS!!

Example: A drow matron goes to punish some male for not bowing(a regular occurrence). OOC the male drow expects to live through this. The Matrons player doesn't. The male dies. The player gets pissed. The Matron gets pissed. OOC hassle ensues.

In fact now that I have thought of it, the above example is the ONE MAIN REASON OOC BICKERING EXISTS!!

The reason it comes down to OOC bickering is because the expectations were OOC to begin with. Thus when I'd die and didn't expect to...I'd flip out, get into an arguement, or do something stupid. Likewise, when I killed someone who didn't expect or want to die, they'd likewise OOC bicker, complain, or do something similarly stupid as I did.

Thus the answer(I guess I did find somewhat of an answer) to solve the OOC bickering that comes with some RP, and which serves to degrade it, is to discuss what is expected OOCly with the player of the character you are RPing with BEFORE engaging in an act that might cause the player of a character grief.

Now if you're talking about the RP stagnation in terms of what motivates a character to go out and kill trolls, each player need to find their own characters motivations.....but at least this may help to solve OOC bickering, which far outweighs lack of RP motivation in terms of problems with the server.

I never became a better roleplayer as a result of joining Amia. Whether it was because of the conditions (way more players than I was used to playing with) or because I had already burned out when I got here, I never really got into it. That's not to say I didn't try my bestest to grow into it, because I did, but eventually somewhere along the line I stopped trying and became that drunk homeless alien that sits around in Cordor waiting for the mothership to pick him up and take him to rehab.

Or something.

---To the original post---

I may have misunderstood what you were getting at, but here goes. The REAL problem with Amia RP? In truth, I believe each player would give you a slightly different list of problems he can think of, all connected to Amia. Everything depends on perspective, and chances are the problems they'd see might be just as real, to them, as your own arguments and points are to you.

Anyway, personally I enjoy leveling my characters slowly, and roleplaying somewhat heavily along the way. It makes them seem more real and valid -to me- that way. I simply enjoy their journey from the start, I don't wait to start "serious and deep," RP when my character is ECL 30. But as I said, that's just me, that's what my personal preferences are. That's what strikes my fancy, that's what I enjoy. My truth is not the ultimate truth however, nor is it the "best," way to go about roleplaying. Every player has their own definition of what RP is, every player has the right to RP however they wish to within the server rules, and every player has the right to approach RP in any way that provides him/her with entertainment. Different people, different tastes, different styles. None of them is the ultimate one, all are proper as long as they are in-line with the rules, rules are the only "limiting,' factor involved.

In my eyes, this is not a problem. The people who enjoy roleplaying heavily along the way while leveling up, will do so. I'll say more, they are doing so at this very moment, because they enjoy doing so. People who'd rather get through leveling as quickly as possible roleplaying lightly along the way will do so. Apparently they enjoy doing so, it's their time, it's their character, it's their style, it's their fun, so what's the problem as long as they stay IC?

I'm sorry, maybe I misinterpreted your arguments and points, but saying that people "need, must, should, etc..." RP according to a certain style seems silly to me. I don't see the need for introducing more general guidelines then there are already: Stay IC, follow the rules, and RP. While the first two are rather clear-cut things most of the time, "RP," is mostly left to the interpretation of each and every player alone. Some people come on to enjoy light, quick RP. While some enjoy delving into the "deeper," (From their point of view) stuff connected to their characters. This is not a problem, it has never been IMO. People define fun differently, hence people play differently. You may think they are missing out because they rush through leveling, because they want it over with. But I can flip that coin and theorize that some of "them," would find the play-style you glorify as boring. So who is right? Is anyone right? I think everyone is right.

The only thing that people need to do is enjoy themselves within the limits of the rules, while respecting the right of every other player to do the same, according to their own style. That's my personal opinion.

You know what I think. Leave it.

Let people RP the way they want. Stop trying to police RP by saying there are problems with it or that there is no problem with it. Who cares. It's how the person wants to RP, and if everyone is happy, then let it be.

Getting a litte sick of these threads that claim there is a problem with RP on Amia, there really isn't. If you don't enjoy the RP on the server anymore, then it's likely a problem with yourself, something easily fixed by not RPing with that person anymore.

I still fail to see how Amia is somehow "going downhill".

Mechanically wise and development wise, its actually going uphill. All the new areas are great, the gnomes of Urdlen are a breath of fresh air. I went to the Abyss last night and got owned, because of all these new critters there. I was well impressed! All we need now is a few long epicy questy thingies and I'll be in heaven! Oh and an extended Underdark...oh did I mention we need some seating in Underport...*muffled sound as someone else gags her*.

I asked for a War, we got one from the DM team with the Black Caravan plots, etc...

I ask for more idols, i generally get, idols.

I ask for more RP during adventures, this week and last week, I haven't been in a party yet that hasn't done so.

I would say on the whole, things are looking up, not down, overall...

I ask for more events, we get them...

So what's so "bad"?

So..., does anyone here want to to discuss actual ideas, or would we rather just look for reasons to be indignant and moralize?

So far, the only discussion about ideas I've seen involve lowering the XP rate or having a creature from a different area occasionally spawn in one it would not normally, but neither of these address what, in my opinion, I argued was the real problem with hunting, that is lacks any "realistic" foundation as an activity in which one could imagine persons regularly engaging in and which is rooted in the dynamics of the world.

The biggest reason I personally end up standing around doing "tea party" RP, is that there is nothing regularly to do otherwise, unless one wants to pull an obviously contrived reason to go "hunting" straight out of one's arse, which is rightly perceived as OOC. Sometimes, a DM is running a plot, but this often creates a largley OOC rush of people to suddenly get involved, often because there is little else to do.

If, however, XP gain and combat is structurally integrated into an on-going plot, like my idea to have a warzone where PCs can sign up as mercs to fight NPCs or areas which they can guard to receive XP over time (with the occassional attack) then one doesn't need to contrive anything, there's already a perfectly logical reason why I'd be fighting and it would not be something entirely separate from the goings-on of the world around me, as it is every time I go into an orc cave and kill them all, for no real reason, and nothing happens.

That's the issue really, is that people perceive combat and xp in DnD as a separate realm from socializing (seen in how many people don't RP during combat and/or are opposed to rolls in socializing). If you re-structure fighting however, to allow time for socializing, or really, to practically demand it, then you don't have this dualism between character growth and growth as a character. This is especially true if the actions of the PCs can possibly have a real effect at some point, for instance, one side eventually gaining an upper hand or winning the conflict due in part to them.

Like I've said with the Ne'sek event, you had loads of people camped out there defending the border, and they spent most of the time RPing, yet occassionally some excitement occurred in the form of a random script-spawn or DM-triggered attack, so the fighting was both interesting and purposive. I'm not a scripting wizard, but I can't imagine it would be so difficult to set up some areas to replicate this by awarding XP for "signing up" with a side to guard an area, or perhaps give some set "quests", such as taking out an enemy patrol that make sense to be repeatable. People could then have an alternative to mindless grinding for xp gain that didn't require DM oversight in the form of DCs and there would also be an alternative to "tea party" socializing where the only drama is of the soap opera kind.

Seeing as DMs are not always around to satisfy our every whim and desire, why not band together a group of players dedicated to "making things happen" that go beyond the usual realm of hunting, etc..? It doesn't always have to be incredibly epic... They'd be like pocket-DMs! Getting their heads together, they'd plan out the basis for a minor (or even major) adventure and then wrangle up some unsuspecting characters to get the ball rollin', and see what happens from there.

Of course, to get anything really good going you'd need DM powerz... But what have we got to lose, our tea time that you lot are perpetually moaning about?

BloodNAshes wrote:

The biggest reason I personally end up standing around doing "tea party" RP, is that there is nothing regularly to do otherwise, unless one wants to pull an obviously contrived reason to go "hunting" straight out of one's arse, which is rightly perceived as OOC.

I think that it might be an idea to have a scripted rush of kobold or goblin raiders in the outskirts of Cordor if they haven't been culled in a while. Then you could have an NPC run into the Cordor Square and yell that the farms are under attack.

Stuff like this isn't strictly essential, but it can spice up what would have been a fairly banal day.

that's a really good idea (the band of attacking kobolds one). How many areas could it be applied to?

The fact that you believe 'hunting' is "rightly percieved as OOC" implies an intrinsic attitude issue. Going out and fighting is IC like any other action you perform.

TormakSaber wrote:

The fact that you believe 'hunting' is "rightly percieved as OOC" implies an intrinsic attitude issue. Going out and fighting is IC like any other action you perform.

Exactly.
There is no such thing as an OOC hunt. If you are hunting you are just as IC as playing gossip-girl in Cordor or plotting to murder an orphanage.
If you don't like it ... too bad. I know I hate hunting but if I'm hunting my character is hunting and it is an IC action.

And you can justify it anyway you want. My Drow does it for fun, my Bhaalyn for money/sacrifices, my Salandran keeps trying to ask the monsters to stop hurting people and they keep attacking her bodyguard.

There is a system in place for if you want to level but don't want to hunt - DCs.

DCs? good luck...

The upcoming job system will also give XP.

Not enough to where it will replace hunting.

But it is a, imo, decent amount of XP for what is very literally in some cases, farming.

I can't wait for it to implement.

Even if it can't completely replace hunting, looking at it, it'll make for Tradesperson characters transitioning into the Adventuring gig more interesting.

I checked out arelith the other day....they give 20 exp every so and so minutes of rp.....that could help promote rp a bit

The best RP experience I've had was when I was in a group hunting in the Cordor crypt dungeon, with a kobold rogue, a human bard, a dwarven fighter and my own human fighter/rogue. We took it slowly, not earning much XP but exploring each room and dicussing strategy. We encountered a group of evil adventurers and there was this awesome stand-off.

Anyway, Cordor *pokepoke giggle* role play is rubbish, but having adventures is cool.

ILoveIceCream wrote:

I checked out arelith the other day....they give 20 exp every so and so minutes of rp.....that could help promote rp a bit

It also runs off heartbeats an an arbitrary "XP Rating". What better way for you to lose self esteem than for someone to dock your RP rating and lessen the XP you get?

Plus

*AFKs for a few hours*

Ding.

Quote:

The fact that you believe 'hunting' is "rightly percieved as OOC" implies an intrinsic attitude issue. Going out and fighting is IC like any other action you perform.

No matter how many times people repeat this platitude, it's not going to change the reality of the way hunting actually operates on Amia, because as I've said, one must contrive a reason to go hunting, there is almost never a reason already present (beyond "adventuring" which is vague). Asking people to continually contrive reasons to go out and randomly slaughter perpetually respawning creatures to no real effect nor purpose is unreasonable.

It is not like any other action one performs, because so-called tea party RP is self-justifying. People do not generally need a reason to socialize. Killing, risking one's life, venturing out in the wilds, etc. require a reason in order to make coherent sense, and also to be actually exciting rather than routine, and there is only so many times one can try to justify hunting Brog spawns for instance, which one is often stuck with trying to find a hunting party, before it becomes absurd.

Sure, you can keep trying to justify inaction by saying things such as "well, you don't *have* to hunt at all" or you can provide people the tools and settings they need to make, what the vast majority are inevitably be going to be doing, more conducive to coherent RP. If you don't provide any such changes to the environment, blaming the supposed lack of player's creativity is hollow because they are limited to concocting flimsy reasons why they must continually go out and kill random creatures in the same location and trying to justify or ignore why that never has any relation to nor effect on the rest of the world.

I've personally attempted multiple times to RP during hunts, only to be told things such as "this is a hunting party, not a RP party" or to be left in the dust as everyone races ahead of me while I attempt to type, and this is not merely with people I don't know or new players, but with veterans and folks I've been playing with a long time. In truth, I don't blame them. Hunting is often banal because it's nonsensical and if you want to keep up with your friends and participate in most DM plots which involve conflict, you really do need to level, hence grinding. Also, character experience is a fundamental part of DnD which, if you acknowledge that, is going to make most people want to gain some amount of it. I really don't see how anyone can argue against the suggestion of providing alternative methods of gaining XP that don't require such, particularly since as another here mentioned you can "outsource" dev work.

I brought up the specific idea which hasn't been discussed, so people can go back to repeating the "too bad" and "it's what you make of it" posts which, besides not being productive, don't really even address anything. Is it impossible to set up a scripted event like the Ne'sek camp or something that I'm missing here?

I've been fortunate enough that even on the scripted quests, I'm very rarely there for the reasons given.. I had a wonderful experience in the Kobold caves once after running into a hin girl in the sewers. Instead of going because of the farmer and such, she had been looking for her lute. Her story being that it was stolen when her cart was attacked by Kobolds on the way from bendir.

Sure, it took us far longer than we would possibly have ever taken normally to search *every inch* of that cave system for where a lute might have been stashed (even if it..near-predictably "turned up" in the high-priest-boss guys lair) but it was a far more memorable experience than jewelry hunting for farmer holvin..or whatever his name was.

You don't need to be a high-level with deep pockets to make an adventure for other players. Just offer them a chance to come along for the ride.

(Disclaimer: I may actually be posting this in part to brag on the player of the hin girl. Tons of fun had all around)

Yurell wrote:

There is no such thing as an OOC hunt. If you are hunting you are just as IC as playing gossip-girl in Cordor or plotting to murder an orphanage.
If you don't like it ... too bad. I know I hate hunting but if I'm hunting my character is hunting and it is an IC action.

Yeah but, as things stand, there isn't any pressure to go out and do that job. The hostiles will be out there beyond the city limits whether you go two minutes from now or two hours from now. You never have to worry about what might happen if they got inside the outer walls and started looting and pillaging.

If there are unpredictable attacks based on lack of actual hero performance out in the field, then going out and hunting will have a noticeable effect (there are fewer incursions) that your character can take at least some of the credit for. More to the point, the actions you take have an effect on some other part(s) of the world.

BloodNAshes wrote:

Quote:

The fact that you believe 'hunting' is "rightly percieved as OOC" implies an intrinsic attitude issue. Going out and fighting is IC like any other action you perform.

No matter how many times people repeat this platitude, it's not going to change the reality of the way hunting actually operates on Amia, because as I've said, one must contrive a reason to go hunting, there is almost never a reason already present (beyond "adventuring" which is vague). Asking people to continually contrive reasons to go out and randomly slaughter perpetually respawning creatures to no real effect nor purpose is unreasonable.

"I want the money and crafting stuff, and I might find something ace in the big monster's lair" is both an OOC and IC reason.

Although much of the maths and nomenclature of the game engine are OOC, it is also an IC/RP/FR part of the game world that a character covered in highly Mythalled uberloot and toting a bagfull of wands and scrolls and Reality potions is less likely to die in a fight.

Not Dying In A Fight is an adventurer's job. It's a purely IC decision to go and get better at it, and if you don't like your job, then the only reasonable path is a change of careers. Most jobs do have a repetitive element to them, so choose wisely.

I maintain that if you consider hunting OOC then perhaps you should change your attitude.

Or your choice of servers, if you're not going to RP your chasracter's progression.

Last edited by ticket on Thu, Mar 05 2009, 8:06 AM, edited 1 time in total.

BloodNAshes wrote:

I brought up the specific idea which hasn't been discussed, so people can go back to repeating the "too bad" and "it's what you make of it" posts which, besides not being productive, don't really even address anything. Is it impossible to set up a scripted event like the Ne'sek camp or something that I'm missing here?

Totally agree with your post BloodNAshes. And it echoed my point exactly in asking for a conscious effort to make more quests to give adventurers purpose. In the hope that the journey from level 3 to 30 become an adventure, where every outing has a goal (however arbitrary) beyond that of leveling.

After my nth character, I've literally run out of excuses on why to hunt spiders in the valley or the werewolves in the forest. No one is saying that RP in Amia sucks or that there's no RP while adventuring in Amia. And I think what the original poster is asking is that we don't forget that this is RPG, where the staple is the life of an adventurer. Not everyone is just about life after 30; for some it's about the life of an adventurer and the goal is simply to explore exotic lands, help/destroy lives along the way, become stronger, and retire rich.

I'm asking from the module and dev team to lend a hand in generating some purpose and RP to adventurers. Maybe even make it possible to reach 30 just by going through each area once or twice only.

BloodNAshes' idea of a "Ne'sek-Camp type of scenario" is a nice thought too. For example, Endir's Point being sieged by the ogres coming down from the Fort. So soldiers, mercenaries, and adventurers will be hired to defend certain nothing-super-important positions. Players will have to organize, set up camps, and feel anxious as to when the next big attack is coming.

// For the crowd that loves life after 30 and those who love the life of adventure and seeing their characters grow, stop imposing on one another which is more fun; you're both correct and both makes Amia the best server. You're almost sure to find people in your level range to hunt with and there's also always things yet to do even after reaching 30.

TormakSaber wrote:

I maintain that if you consider hunting OOC then perhaps you should change your attitude.

Or your choice of servers, if you're not going to RP your chasracter's progression.

Thats pretty much it, and considering it is an RPG centered around adventure, hunting is exactly where you should be role playing.

I am literally astonished that we are all playing an action D&D computer game and need to find highly contrived reasons to go out and kill stuff. Are you serious?

*looks over his D&D resources*

OK, just checked and it's official. D&D is, indeed, about killing monsters and gaining power and wealth. No go do it and stop whining about how "unrealistic" or "unmotivating" it is to kill stuff. It's why we're here.

Wow. Seriously.

I had a laugh the other day. There was my Wizard, explaining to a group of adventurers he just met that he would come with them on the condition that they would let him examine the ruins in the basement of the Spires, as the last group he'd taken there had turned out to have no patience whatsoever. "Alright, let's go", they said. Guess what happened once we got to the ruins? They whizzed right past them and were already out of sight as I'd finished typing the first sentence.

Amia has no problem. Players who like to RP on occasion while hunting have problems with players who don't. People who don't like standing around town waiting for an injured man to dramatically crawl across the main plaza have a problem with people who do. It's nothing new.

Also.. you can always coerce a group of powerhunters by being loquacious yourself when they stop momentarily to hack up a group of enemies. Gradually you can turn that into a better RP behaviour on their part because they will end up expecting, agreeing with, and taking part in some sort of RP while they hunt.

I wrote another post yesterday, before my last one, but it was at least as long as my first so I scrapped it (it was mainly in point form though so maybe it only looked longer... ).

One of the main things that post was about was the kind of random quest solution I had been talking about. Whether it involves massive amounts of scripting or not I am unsure, but the system was based off of things already in place, soon to be in place or active on other servers. There was a mixture of Kjetta's idea, my idea and Disco's Job SYstem to it all.

As already mentioned, people don't do the quests that are already in the module. This is only partly true in that there are some quests that almost everyone does, while there are others that players attempt multiple times yet never complete. Why? Most people do the Kobold quest for the simple reason that only one member of the party needs to get the amulet and everyone can finish it. This is how quests should work for a party. A party shouldn't have to do the Orc's head quest six times before everyone has completed it - this is just grinding with a thin veneer of purpose and is probably one of the main reasons people don't go to some areas because by the time they've done the Orc's head quest so many times, killing things like Nibblers is a waste of time. Why do people do the Orc's head quest though? Put simply they do it because of the reward - at that level doing the quest is the only real source of a Raise Dead scroll for most characters, and the other rewards are nothing to complain about either.

That's what I was thinking of when I thought of random quests. There were five different types of random quest, some of which are not entirely random and some of which are only available a certain number of times per reset.

Party Leader Quests - Six quests available per reset, given to a randomly selected Party Leader and his party. A Player may only do one of these quests in a given timeframe. Very rare, very lucrative, large quests that may prove difficult for the receiver's party meaning they may need to seek out the aid of someone more powerful than them. Because the quests are given out randomly there is a chance that in a given reset nobody will get one of these quests.

General Quests - This encompasses the named-boss-becomes-an-NPC-under-threat type, the party of NPC adventurers type, the random guy in an empty room seeking aid type, the wandering merchant type and the wandering beggars asking if you can spare a coin type. Merchants here deserve special mention. If you choose not to trade with him you and your party get a chance to pickpocket or attack him in which case he may or may not summon guards, in both cases there is a chance you will receive a piece of his inventory (within the PP rules). Trade with Merchant = no XP, but you get to look in his inventory and can purchase whatever you can afford. Picking his pockets gives you a chance of a bit of XP and the PPer may receive a small item on success, but failure ends up the same as attacking him. On attacking the Merchant he tries to flee while calling his guards. Killing his guards will yield the greatest XP, while catching and killing the merchant will yield a portion of his inventory.

Faith Quests - Worshiping your deity's idol may reward you with a quest which could be a "burn the heretic" kind of deal or a "bring me the head of the Chosen of XXX" kind of thing or one of a few others. The first Faith Quest that you do rewards you with that deity's Ring. I also had the idea that proselytizing should be rewarded, an existing member of the Faith brings a new character along and is rewarded with XP for the "conversion" (onviously, only level 10 and under characters can be "coinverted").

Homeland Quests - Available from the Captain of the Guard or equivalent, these are things like Guard and Patrol Duty where the character walks between checkpoints. Guards patrol between points near the main gates or along the walls. There is a small chance that every time you do guard duty an NPC may spawn seeking entry and creating a situation where social skills and/or combat is needed to resolve. Every round while walking in the Guard Duty area the character earns random XP between 5 and 20 (the total xp in one sweep would be the same as if they simply got a lump sum for reaching the checkpoint). Patrol Duty is long range and takes the character into surrounding areas to reach their checkpoints, along the way they may come across bands of Homeland Enemies (Drow for Winya, etc.) or it might just be uneventful. Upon reaching the checkpoints in a Patrol, a few hundred XP are awarded. Homeland Quests also involve the "get me books to fill the library" kind of fetch quests for NPCs.

Class Quests - These work on a system somewhat like Disco's Jobs where a character is given points every time they reach levels 1, 5, 10, 15 and 20 of a Class. Every time they level up there is a chance an NPC will spawn for them soon afterwards (in a safe area like a road or spawnless room) to offer them a quest. The character can choose to spend their points to do the quests or save them for later. A character may only ever do as many quests as they have points and may only do one level 20 quest. Obviously, the level 20 Class Quest will give a higher chance of greater rewards, but this is also meant to encourage people to, and reward them for, taking more levels.

Some of the above quests use the scripts Disco has already created for the Job System to spawn specific creatures in specific areas for specific people. Along the same lines some quests may replace a Boss with a quest-specific creature. I assume this is done with skins and there is no chance that someone else will spawn said creatures unless the quest-holder triggers the spawn. This would be a way to get characters to go to places they have never been before or have not been to in a long time - a level 25 in the Kobold Lair, for example.

Now for the really controversial bit. As it stands, when you do a particular quest already in the module, there is a chance that you get rewarded above and beyond the norm and receive a Perfect Mythal. Perfect Mythals should be considered as Epic loot given their rarity and how much people will buy them for. I propose that for all the above quest types there is a similar chance for the player to receive, as part of their reward, an Epic or randomly unique item. In the case of Class Quests, they have the chance of getting Epic Class-specific gear. In the case of Merchants there is a chance that Epic or unique loot will spawn in his inventory. More importantly, there is no level restriction on this chance. A level 3 cannot use Epic gear, they can sell it or drag it around until they can use it, but that's it. We already have level 2s doing Speedy's with a pack load of Bags of Holding full of Epic loot from people that have done complete rebuilds and they don't cause a problem.

The possibility that these quests can yield Epic loot is a very important part of it all. Getting an Epic item at level 5 is something to brag about, something to tell stories of, something to remember and is the true spirit of adventure. It also has the effect that those people unable, or unwilling to, boss farm can get their own Epic items without impacting the activities of those that enjoy doing so.

Anyway, I wanted to address something someone else said, but I've forgotten what it was and this is enough for one post.

Last edited by Uberuce on Thu, Mar 05 2009, 9:43 AM, edited 1 time in total.

krytellan wrote:

*looks over his D&D resources*

OK, just checked and it's official. D&D is, indeed, about killing monsters and gaining power and wealth. No go do it and stop whining about how "unrealistic" or "unmotivating" it is to kill stuff. It's why we're here.

Yarp. Something I forgot in my previous post (mostly because I'm an irredeemable numberhead and can't/won't sit still until my current character is at 30 and has his/her gearsets tweaked out) is that it needn't be OOC to anticipate feats. The way the game works is with, as far as RP goes, overly chunky discrete levels, which is a shame, but can be worked around.

My present main, a cockney Chultan WM, spent WM levels 1-3 muttering in asides about how he was beginning to suspect his Grandpa was talking rubbish and the spiritual totem animal fighting style* he taught him about were actually mince. WM4 he was feeling it more, but hadn't worked out which animal was his, then at 5 he worked out it was the Flying Squirrel.

*My IC excuse to get 16-20x4 crits, since I refuse to RP anything as boring as canon eastern-style Ki Weaponmasters. It's a horrible mishmash of Amazon and African legend and FR, but I care not a jot. A lanky jetblack Cockney who thinks he has a magic squirrel (with those stupid flappy things) living in his dinky little hatchet is far funnier than some brooding git in a pair of pyjamas and a ninja fanboy Samurai sword he bought off Ebay.

I like to brood in my pyjamas.

The REAL Problem with Amia - "RP"

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