AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

halen: it is part of drow rp that if you kill a summoned spider or any spider what so ever that they have commited a sin that is punishable by death, that is how afaik it has always been.

now I would like a DM, preferbly a drow dm, that can answer my question

so this means by the comments here if I were to ask for a reskin of say EDK to be a spider, I am allowed to kill other drow now when previously nekhy said that it was not allowed to kill other drow with a spider, for they have to be a heretic or die. so am I allowed now to get a spider reskin and be able to kill other lolthlites now?

That's because you aren't playing summons correctly then. >.> A summoned creature isn't killed. When it's hp is reduced to zero, it goes back to whence it came unharmed. This is typically why you don't have a dragon coming after you to exact bloody vengence if he gets beat up while you GS'ed and let him do the fighting. A god would get mighty upset if you kept summoning servants of thiers and kept getting them killed.

Granted the idea of fighting a spider may be alien to the drow, but certainly comes down to an inconvience for the spider that it was stolen from it's web by a spell, set to do the cleric or mage's dirty-work, and no permanent loss of life or injury once returned.

Now killing a spider that's wandering Ultrinnan that isn't a summon would result in the spider's death, same thing with killing spiders in the spawns.

But you have to keep in mind that not every drow is going to know the absolute facts about where summons come from, Halen, especially when they are lied to and mislead and brow-beaten at every turn in their lives. If a priestess says don't kill a spider or else, then they have little choice in the matter if they value their lives. Arguing the specifics of it with her is going to be a losing battle.

That may be true, that's why they might not fight back. But if they do, and the spider vanishes without a corpse, there isn't any real proof he killed it.

And if it's another priestess, cleric, mage, well...

Thus it's an ic matter that would really revolve around a specific incident's circumstances. A blanket rule doesn't do it justice.

And if the first priestess telling people that killing summons is murder gets attacked by a summoned spider, she's going to have alot of back-tracking to do.

Herkles, if you ever make such a request and it's approved, you will be informed of the conditions of the skinchange. Previously, for Lolthite's, they've included not griefing other PCs with the summon. Whether this would be true today is up to DM team decision when we discuss your request. Obviously enough.

As I said, there's no server rule about this posted on the R&L forum. It's a condition on which we've approved some requests in the past.

Talon wrote:

Yurell wrote:

Anyway, if you attack a spider Ideal with it ICly. I know my Yath won't give a damn what your excuse is, she'll have new shoes made from you anyway.

This is the problem we're discussing, because this shouldn't really be the case. I can understand her being displeased, but she shouldn't immediately go "KILL THE HERETIC!!"

Have you read the tenets of Lloth?
"Any who harm a spider must die"
Pretty unambiguous, don't you think?

Well, that depends on two things:

1 - is whether you consider it harm, when it's a summoned spider which after de-summoning, whatever the reason, will not be harmed anymore.

and 2 - is whether you consider that the person who summoned it for a hostile intent is therefore guilty of "causing it harm" by having brought it to where it *could* be harmed.....which again leads back to 1, as has been pointed out. edit: which incidentally would also mean that using a spider for hunting, where it gets harmed because you summoned it, would make you heretical, and thus death-worthy.

Cori wrote:

Well, that depends on two things:

1 - is whether you consider it harm, when it's a summoned spider which after de-summoning, whatever the reason, will not be harmed anymore.

and 2 - is whether you consider that the person who summoned it for a hostile intent is therefore guilty of "causing it harm" by having brought it to where it *could* be harmed.....which again leads back to 1, as has been pointed out. edit: which incidentally would also mean that using a spider for hunting, where it gets harmed because you summoned it, would make you heretical, and thus death-worthy.

The word 'harm' is used as a verb in that sense, which means the activity of harming it, which takes care of number one and two, unless you wish to phrase it more delicately as "Any who harm a spider, or through inaction, allow a spider to be harmed, must die", which deals with summoning a spider to fight.
Of course, the rule might be changed to "Any who kill a spider", which means that if you force it to be unsummoned you're not guilty.

It all depends on technical wording.

Edit: And your edit is why I dislike my first suggestion =D

My goodness. Lolth in her tenet, clearly states, "Any who harm a spider must die." As Yurrell said.

Which clearly means anyone who makes a hostile attack against a spider (whether summoned OR not), is then a heretic. Even if it is summoned, making the decision or having the intent TO harm, is harming.

Inaction is not heretical, as Lolth wouldn't kill a priestess for watching someone kill a spider. Though Lolth would expect that those who witnessed the spider hurt by whoever the perpetrator was, will kill them, or take action against said perpetrator.

Also, spiders aren't retards - I'm sure they know when they're getting into a fight.

Sure they know if they are getting into a fight. But it's a summon. It has to do what you command. You can always command it not to get into a fight, but if you summon it, and then send it into a fight, and it gets hurt, that's a direct result of your actions. You have actively caused harm to befall the spider, whether by your sword or the enemies.

Cori wrote:

Sure they know if they are getting into a fight. But it's a summon. It has to do what you command. You can always command it not to get into a fight, but if you summon it, and then send it into a fight, and it gets hurt, that's a direct result of your actions. You have actively caused harm to befall the spider, whether by your sword or the enemies.

Yes, but in that case you argue that it was not you who harmed the spider, you merely allowed it to come to harm, which gave you a reason to kill the 'harmers' to make up for it.

Coincientally every surfacer can use spiders against the drow by that logic because whether summoned or not, if you hurt them, you need to kill yourself or will be killed by your peers.

Halen_Van wrote:

Coincientally every surfacer can use spiders against the drow by that logic because whether summoned or not, if you hurt them, you need to kill yourself or will be killed by your peers.

Or hope your peers don't find out. Or run away instead.

Who's to say it's not an invasion of Ultrinnan?

Halen_Van wrote:

Who's to say it's not an invasion of Ultrinnan?

I'd imagine then that the spiders in Ultrinnan will get riled up enough to attack. Besides, one can cast banishment to remove them. It's up to each individual char to interpret it ICly, but one shouldn't complain if a higher ranking person disagrees with oneself.

BlackDahlya wrote:

Talon wrote:

IronAngel wrote:

I'm not sure if it's a good rule, but then, I think the idea that a drow wouldn't kill a spider if one attacked him is ridicilous. You think a hindu is going to let a cow trample him for fun just because it's sacred?

This. If a spider attacks a Lolthite Drow, the Lolthite can defend himself. He may not particularly enjoy doing so, but if it's a choice between discomfort and death, a Drow (and really anything) chooses discomfort.

Yup.

War of the Spider Queen.

The drow party at the Demonweb Pits is attacked by spiders. The whole Demonweb Pits is filled with spiders.

If memory serves, the drow attacked. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong, those with better memories and that read the series.

The way I see it, Lolth preaches survival of the fittest. Let a spider kill your PC, if you are perfectly capable to defend yourself, doesn't seem to fit this.

Well my take on this with my Drow is that anything that attacks him and there is no immediate problem for doing so... dies. In the Wilderness if he is attacked by spiders in the wilds outside Ultrinnan and there isn't a Yath around to kill him after, it gets splatted. He very much believes in Survival of the fittest and won't stand around to get eaten. He may not like doing it, but he sure as hell isn't going to feel remorse, nor confess to a Yathrin after killing a spider.

If there was a Yath around and he was being attacked by spiders, he would either try splatting the person responsible, or retreat/escape to live another day. In this whole thing I call the First Drow law into effect "Don't get Caught." The only exception to this is if his Illharess was being attacked by a spider, in which he would splat the spider and take the punishment.

Also there is another literary reference to killing spiders by Drow, most specifically males. Homeland has an incident where a Mage has to drop a fireball at his feet as his lab is being swarmed by spiders. All he was concerned about is survival.

That said, I think if Drow Clerics killed spiders they would lose all their powers and lloths blessing. Males can mostly get away with it as lloth doesn't care enough to watch them

Aurora wrote:

That said, I think if Drow Clerics killed spiders they would lose all their powers and lloths blessing. Males can mostly get away with it as lloth doesn't care enough to watch them

I'm not sure about that, Llothe's a big fan of having people break her rules... it's part of the who chaos aspect. So long as you don't get caught by your peers she just enjoys the chaos.

Personally I think clerics should be more worried about what the rest of the church'll do to them then what Llothe'll do.

That being said I'm no drow expert and this is just my opinion.

Is Lolth even going to notice if some drow kill some spiders? I mean, Gods can't be "everywhere" at once, right?

Lesquille wrote:

Is Lolth even going to notice if some drow kill some spiders? I mean, Gods can't be "everywhere" at once, right?

I doubt it. I think the clergy cares more than Lloth does.

Yurell wrote:

Lesquille wrote:

Is Lolth even going to notice if some drow kill some spiders? I mean, Gods can't be "everywhere" at once, right?

I doubt it. I think the clergy cares more than Lloth does.

That seems to be the trend with Lloth's rules.

Heh, supposedly Lolth tends to think that most drow dont -get it-. Since they worship her in a rather organized way, with set rituals, traditions, etc.

Sure, she accepts that sort of worship, because that's where most of her power stems from- her followers. But I've read that she still finds it one big misunderstanding on some deep, basic level. Because all in all she's a creature of chaos, and the drow worship her in an orderly manner, and believe that their way is how it's supposed to be.

Her clergy is a different matter then Lolth herself. I'd imagine they enforce pseudo-order, and their own rules for the sake of increasing their power and influence over the rest of drow society. Wrapping Llothites in a thin layer of law suits the clergy, because it's easier to keep most of the power in their hands that way. In the end slavery is in the mind, and IMO that's exactly the purpose of the uneasy order the Yath tries to maintain by means of fear. Because it's not about how much power they really have, but how well they can convince the rest of society that they do indeed have it.

Followers are a source of power for Lolth, as any other deity, Lolth grants her clergy divine/vile power in exchange for service, her clergy keeps society in check to maintain their own influence, and through that Lolth's influence. Because if they suddenly lose Lolth, they lose power, and society probably wont think twice about kicking them out at that point. On the other side of that card, if they lose influence, so will Lolth, that'll make her pissed, and well, you can figure out the rest...

Hence why they might be so keen on enforcing even something like "Dont kill spiders, even if they are attacking you."

That's my view on it at least.

War of the Spider Queen showed what happens if Lloth goes poof.

But yeah, Lloth really doesn't care about it as far as I know.

its kill or be killed, only the strong and most cunning will survive. that being said if a drow is killing a spider and no ones around to see it, then does it really happen

you people love to debate drow, probably more debated than pvp issues on the server lol

xdrone561x wrote:

its kill or be killed, only the strong and most cunning will survive. that being said if a drow is killing a spider and no ones around to see it, then does it really happen :)

Mmhmm one of the first rules of drow society is that if it can't be proven, it did not happen.

So anyways, like, we all agree, right?

the rule sucks, let's trash it!

Spiderkilling for everyone!

Please.

If you want to kill the flaming spider, kill the flaming spider.
But do NOT whine about IC consequences to IC actions.

Were it a rule, I wouldn't mind trashing it. It's not, though. I'm 95% sure the quotes from me and Nekh were from a Requests topic, and are conditions on like two or three reskinned summons out there.

Go summon spiders to your heart's content, if you're able. Follow the rules given to you personally when you requested a reskin, or PM the DMs to see if the restriction should be revoked, I guess?

Personally I don't see anything wrong with using a spider summon against drow, so long as you forgive things like auto-attacks an AoO. It's a smart way to win, albeit cheap, and the best way to deal withit is simply to flee IMO, or you can kill it and suck up the cosequences.

IronAngel wrote:

Were it a rule, I wouldn't mind trashing it. It's not, though. I'm 95% sure the quotes from me and Nekh were from a Requests topic, and are conditions on like two or three reskinned summons out there.

Go summon spiders to your heart's content, if you're able. Follow the rules given to you personally when you requested a reskin, or PM the DMs to see if the restriction should be revoked, I guess?

I am for revoking restrictions! Huzzah!

*Makes a Cat-boy*

Oooooh, THE restriction as opposed to all of them...

Spider Summon Reskins and Drow

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