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Well, to be perfectly honest, this is the very first server I've played on where there's no language widget or scripts for you to use. I prefer the idea of having languages in the game, like on other servers, but...I don't even know why or what the reasoning is behind not having it?

Last edited by IronAngel on Thu, Feb 05 2009, 23:25 PM, edited 1 time in total.

@black: That's exactly my point. If you wish to police which languages which PC should know, that D&D rule is the standard by which you will obviously do it in a D&D game. But you don't need to know D&D rules to play Amia. The obvious conclusion is that you do not need to know the D&D rules for learning languages, and you may speak languages as you see fit (until a DM tells you otherwise). I mean, you just admitted you know nothing about the rules of learning languages. How can you have a standard to judge the validity of other PCs' language skills, then?

The skill, AFAIK, lets you learn a new language by buying a rank in it. I don't know, I don't play PnP. And I shouldn't have to know.

We could make it an Amia rule, like Tormak said. But should we? That's a discussion for the DM team to have and vote on, but it's not the first time we've discussed it and nothing's ever been done about it. Which I think is good, at least until we have a nigh-flawless system that requires very little DM maintenance. The gist of this topic, though, is the state of things as they are, not as they ought to be.

blackvswhite wrote:

can you explain what this skill does? People who have never heard of these things because they don't play PnP probably won't like it. Just about everyone knows about languages, but not special skills and spells involving them.

Each rank = a new language known

so... by lvl 30 you know 15 languages if you want. thats a lot.

+ your automatic ones + whatever your int modifier was at first level.

But the thing is, you still need to learn these these languages, and those are skill points that you could use in a better way (in PnP there are plenty of skills yo use your points on)

Plus, of course, the automatic languages you get (Common, Racial, Class-Related, at least Druidic, not sure about Thieves' Cant), and the bonus languages you can buy at character creation according to your starting intelligence modifier.

The PnP rule doesn't guarantee any better role-play and the end result will still be a ridicilous amount of languages, which is why I'm not all too keen on making it an Amian rule. It will unreasonably favour wizards, while learning a new language is something pretty much everyone can and will do at some point. That and the actual managing of the languages known, without scripts doing it for you.

EDIT: Yurell beat me to it, augh!

Like scrying!

politely ask another server's DM if you can use their language system?

It's not that simple. Many other servers don't have as many people as we do. I think we are one of, if not THE largest rp server out there. Implementing the system would cause a unreasonable amount of strain, unless other systems have been thought up that are less lag instensive.

You should ask yourself what a language system offers that an emote "*speaks Drow*" and using the party channel can't offer as well. What it basically does is not offering any RP flavour. It simply keeps people out of your conversations WHILE THEY ARE STANDING NEXT TO YOU AND ARE SPAMMED WITH YOUR DRIBBLE.

I didn't accidentally press my caps there. I think this bit is vital. Why should we implement a system that fills the screen of many players with incomprehensible nonsense of a few other people? What does that add? What does it add that you allow people to keep other people out of their RP? What does it add that can't be done better by not standing in Cordor Square if you want to discuss sensitive information?

Something DID change, and this discussion stopped being "theoretical", the moment you and Ron posted that use of the tongues spell was an exception to the established rules for use of pnp spells.

You stated that consent is NOT required, to use this pnp spell.

You did not state that "theoretically, consent should not be required".

And the rule about consent has been around for ages. Nowhere in the simple statement that "consent is required" does it, or did it, say "except if you want to use the spell tongues".

Personally, I don't much care about what languages someone rply knows. I generally just Roll with the Punches. There's a reason that's been my motto for years. I might ask if they have a good reason to know the language, because sometimes new folks don't understand how we deal with languages here on Amia. I'm fine with that. I'll happily explain it, and if they have a good rp reason to know elven, power to them. I don't give a rats arse about whether their int mod allows it, because this IS NOT PNP NO MATTER HOW MUCH SOME OF YOU WANT IT TO BE. If RP says something is cool, then I'll go with it.

If someone tells me they want to rp the use of the spell tongues, and their character has reason to know it, and have it memorised (which is a NWN mechanic), then you know what, I'll roll with it. Hell, I might even keep talking the same as I had been in elven (or whatever) if I on't have any spellcraft and thus wouldn't recognise the spell. I'll do that because it's good RP to do so. That, incidentally, would qualify as "asking for, and being given, consent". Not so hard, is it?

But here's the thing:

The player with the utter lowest intelligence, coming to Amia, can probably figure out within short order that an elf, typing [elven]blah blah blah, just said that sentence in elven.

The player with the lowest intelligence, can probably figure out that being a human, they don't know that language. They might decide that they have a good reason to know it, and if so, refer to what I typed above.

An RP noob possibly won't know that they should only react to that sentence if they have a goo dreason to understand it. But you know what? RP noobs don't always know that they shouldn't type ooc without marking that it's ooc, either. That's something they generally learn in short order, else they likely won't last long here. Same with languages.

Now, take some super intelligent prodigy, a physics professor, say. They come onto Amia, without knowing anything about pnp. They aren't going to know a goddamned thing about the spell "Tongues". Nor is it a quick and easy concept to pick up on, unlike typing [elven]blah blah blah, which we've already decided that even the lowest intelligence person could probably figure out.

Playing for any length of time is not going to necessarily instill within them the "gist" of the spell, unless they see it get used a lot, and then, their knowledge will only pertain to what they've seen. So if they see it get used incorrectly all the time, they still won't know the truth about the spell, because it is not self explanatory. It is not intuitive. It has specific rules pertaining to it's use.

And you know what? Those rules are a pnp thing, just like how bonus languages have pnp rules. And because THIS IS NOT PNP, I don't actually care. I really don't. If consent is requested, and I agree, I don't give a monkey's arse whether it was used "properly" per pnp, or not. Similarly, I don't use grapple rolls, bluff rolls, persuade rolls, etc. Because if the rp is sound, then I don't care, because THIS IS NOT PNP. Just like I don't care if your INT modifier is high enough to know elven, so long as the rp behind it is sound.

Last I checked, Amia was a NWN mod, with a focus on RP. Not a PNP D&D mod with a focus on owning a crapload of reference books so that we can double and triple check the pnp rules behind everything everyone ever does. Reference books and pnp rules are great when it comes to creating off-the-wall races - though I'm also much less picky about how "perfect" a concept fits with the race requested than some people are. If the RP fits, it's generally good enough for me.

Dev Disco wrote:

You should ask yourself what a language system offers that an emote "*speaks Drow*" and using the party channel can't offer as well. What it basically does is not offering any RP flavour. It simply keeps people out of your conversations WHILE THEY ARE STANDING NEXT TO YOU AND ARE SPAMMED WITH YOUR DRIBBLE.

I didn't accidentally press my caps there. I think this bit is vital. Why should we implement a system that fills the screen of many players with incomprehensible nonsense of a few other people? What does that add? What does it add that you allow people to keep other people out of their RP? What does it add that can't be done better by not standing in Cordor Square if you want to discuss sensitive information?

Couldn't we just get it to just say *Speaks [insert languae]* and that's t?

Dev Disco wrote:

You should ask yourself what a language system offers that an emote "*speaks Drow*" and using the party channel can't offer as well. What it basically does is not offering any RP flavour. It simply keeps people out of your conversations WHILE THEY ARE STANDING NEXT TO YOU AND ARE SPAMMED WITH YOUR DRIBBLE.

I didn't accidentally press my caps there. I think this bit is vital. Why should we implement a system that fills the screen of many players with incomprehensible nonsense of a few other people? What does that add? What does it add that you allow people to keep other people out of their RP? What does it add that can't be done better by not standing in Cordor Square if you want to discuss sensitive information?

It add's the ability to converse in a private manner, it add's the immersion value of dealing with cultures that are not your own. It also stops the abuse of PnP spells. Before you chirp in Iron, I don't mean languages as governed by PnP DnD, I mean languages that should be governed, by Amia rules.

@Yurell: No, because then you get hit by the old PnP tongues spell and such.

Could just type [Drow] And go on with speaking. For the most part, I accept tongues being cast any time by a wizard, and a sorcerer that tells me what useless spell they have for it.

I can keep rping languages as I have always done. I've never meta'ed the stuff my characters didn't know, and if my characters had something secret to say they whisper in thier foriegn language, not continue to speak it out loud in whatever language. Or use thieves' cant or hand-signs.

I've been in places where people around me are speaking spanish. they are from a different culture, which speaks a different language. It was background noise to me. great. They knew what they were saying because they were raised learning that language. That doesn't mean I understand it.

Halen_Van wrote:

Could just type [Drow] And go on with speaking. For the most part, I accept tongues being cast any time by a wizard, and a sorcerer that tells me what useless spell they have for it.

I can keep rping languages as I have always done. I've never meta'ed the stuff my characters didn't know, and if my characters had something secret to say they whisper in thier foriegn language, not continue to speak it out loud in whatever language. Or use thieves' cant or hand-signs.

That. Personally I've never had a problem with people metagaming stuff, so it hasn't been an issue that has arisen.
If people want to use PnP spells, they are giving me permission to use PnP spells too.
If people metagame what you say leave, ignore them ... they usually aren't worth RPing with.

I would agree with what you just said if it wasn't for the DMs giving everyone and their grandmothers permission to metagame languages all they want.

It doesn't really say that. What they are saying is that wizards of appropriate level, Monks of appropriate level and people with approved Tongues DC items can listen in on most every OUTLOUD conversation and understand it.

By the way, I doubt a sorcerer would ever waste a spell slot on the Tongues spell. That is, its purely a wizard spell 99% of the time.

a wizard sees what you say and wants to be able to understand it ICly, so he casts a random spell on a sign next to you and says he casted tongues. anyone can do that, whether that spell was specifically meant to stand for tongues or not.

People on both sides (not going to name names) - Irrespective of arguments presented, please, show some tact and leave the snipes, hosility, and childish jabs at other people out of the thread.

It's a serious topic despite disagreements, and it's one that should be discussed fully.

soundofastream wrote:

By the way, I doubt a sorcerer would ever waste a spell slot on the Tongues spell. That is, its purely a wizard spell 99% of the time.

The biggest problem as it currently stands, with this arguement, is that any level 3 spell can be cast and called tongues, because there's no distinct ruling on WHAT can be called a Tongues spell. So a sorcerer can very easily decide that the GMW spell he took as one of the level 3 choices, is going to substitute as a Tongues spell today. Tomorrow, perhaps the Fireball spell will fill in for Tongues.

If the DM Team wants to allow Tongues, then it ~should~ be regulated via saying that only ...say....Find Traps? Or Slow maybe? Something less usefull than other spells (alas, level 3 has a lot of useful spells), so that it wouldn't normally be in every sorc's repertoire of spells. Or in the case of a wiz/cleric, it would be, but it likely wouldn't be one of the *memorised* spells all the time, so no matter how much they want to cast it, they'd have to add it as a slot, rest, then cast it.

Cori wrote:

[...If the DM Team wants to allow Tongues, then it ~should~ be regulated via saying that only ...say....Find Traps? Or Slow maybe? Something less usefull than other spells (alas, level 3 has a lot of useful spells), so that it wouldn't normally be in every sorc's repertoire of spells. Or in the case of a wiz/cleric, it would be, but it likely wouldn't be one of the *memorised* spells all the time, so no matter how much they want to cast it, they'd have to add it as a slot, rest, then cast it.

I agree with this. That way they have to sacrifice a spell slot in advanced to cast it not spontaneously substitute a la Cleric casting Cure spells

blackvswhite wrote:

I would agree with what you just said if it wasn't for the DMs giving everyone and their grandmothers permission to metagame languages all they want.

Hey. HEY.

I want to clarify something. Right Now.

This topic? Isn't official. This is two DMs telling you their opinion. No rule change has occurred, and what they say, beyond being their incredibly strong (and wrong, imo) opinion, is NOT the rule on Amia.

And if it is, then, well, frankly, I pull rank and reverse it, because they shouldn't be allowed to be the only ones to make rule changes without discussing it with the team...

Hrm... this looks dangerously like I ma hanging Ron and Iron out to dry, but honest guys, I'm not, but this needs to be said otherwise you are going to have some very confused very angry players...

As it stands, if you desire to use Tongues, you must ask permission, and you may not metagame a language simply because it's spoken, and also, the "int mod languages" is not a rule, merely a very happy suggestion. Perhaps the last should be made a rule and in doing so you solve the other two problems in one go.

hmm... okay I would go with the above mentioned thing... but how would you measure the 10 min/level? there has to be set rules or it will continue being infinitely better than having to know languages

EDIT: ooh! thankies tormie.

yeah as long as somebody makes some kind of tangible rule (that includes languages existing, and not auto-known by everyone), I'll be happy

ooh! ooh! make a page modifying some random spell in that transmutation book! pick anything with a duration of one turn/level, make it remove it's effect and have a special animation to show the tongue spell.

I'm just hoping you all realize that if Tongues is in any way shape or form physically added to Amia, it is then an "Amia feature" and is no longer subject to the rules and regulations of a PnP spell, because it's something anyone can read and access just by playing Amia.

Shorthand: This means no one will ever need to ask you consent again for Tongues if we do this. Does that settle well with you?

I'd like the natural Int Mod. on languages made an actual rule.

I'm not against the Tongues spell being used, but only with permission/consent from another player or if a DM is on, by the DM (with/or without consent from the other player in this case).

I'd expect that only Wizards would know the spell because, Sorc's get a limited number of Known Spells so unless they opt never to use a spell in favour of Tongues, should by rights, NOT know it. Not sure on Bardic abilities...but spell wise, same goes at least.

It could be an actual widget given to Wizards that flashes up a message for other players in the right hand panel.

Anyway, there's my wishlist.

I personally vote for leaving things as is.

Tongues is a PnP spell, ask before using it.
If you ask and they say no? Just accept it and move on.

On that note if some one uses it with out asking, send them a tell reminding them need to ask first and tell them that you don't give them the go ahead to use it.

If they try to use it anyways warn them they're breaking the rules and that you're screen capping it and sending it a DM.

I don't see a reason to waste time scripting anything new or trying to force new language rules on people.

I think (obviously) that it should be left as it is.

However, I won't be as against it as I have been in this thread thus far, if it is a regulated feature. I think it's absurd that this topic should go this far, personally, but if that's what it takes, go for it.

I also wish to say thank you to DM Tormak, for finally clearing up for us that this is NOT a rule yet, despite the postings of the other dm's. Had this been stated 3 pages ago, perhaps by the DM's posting it as though it were a ruling, then I really think a LOT of harsh words and hard feelings would have been avoided. Definitely including from myself. I understand Tormak was unable to post until now, so please don't think I'm pointing any fingers your way.

TormakSaber wrote:

blackvswhite wrote:

I would agree with what you just said if it wasn't for the DMs giving everyone and their grandmothers permission to metagame languages all they want.

Hey. HEY.

I want to clarify something. Right Now.

This topic? Isn't official. This is two DMs telling you their opinion. No rule change has occurred, and what they say, beyond being their incredibly strong (and wrong, imo) opinion, is NOT the rule on Amia.

And if it is, then, well, frankly, I pull rank and reverse it, because they shouldn't be allowed to be the only ones to make rule changes without discussing it with the team...

Hrm... this looks dangerously like I ma hanging Ron and Iron out to dry, but honest guys, I'm not, but this needs to be said otherwise you are going to have some very confused very angry players...

As it stands, if you desire to use Tongues, you must ask permission, and you may not metagame a language simply because it's spoken, and also, the "int mod languages" is not a rule, merely a very happy suggestion. Perhaps the last should be made a rule and in doing so you solve the other two problems in one go.

Thank you Tormak. The first two posts by Ron and Iron seemed as if it was a rule, and thus got me riled up, as it contradicted my own original post. As it stands now, I have no need to argue anymore.

im a bit confused at this point, as to why this discussion is so heated. was this really like a huge freaking problem before?

why dont we just keep going as is? and if someone is always saying "I cast Tongues!" or worse, just intentionally meta-ing the hell out of your [drow], and you dont want to give up speaking [drow], find someone else to play with.

[Drow] If we'd just done this, nau one would be upset, because they'd be metagaming if they claimed to know what the thread was about.

soundofastream wrote:

I'd like the natural Int Mod. on languages made an actual rule

The problem is that makes wizards automatically the language monkeys, when usually that's the role of bards in PnP.

Oh, and I'm glad Tormak cleared up that it was just an opinion, not a rule.

I'm just going to make a little note here.

Rules are there because there are no mechanical blocks on it. The argument that it should be allowed because the mechanics of NWN allow it is completely moot. Things that aren't physically possible don't need rules regarding them. It's things that are that need rules.

I'm going to partially disagree with Tormak, and say:
No rule says which languages you can know. There is no rule governing language learning, because that's a PnP thing that has to be consented to. So nothing prevents a character from magically learning any language they hear, unless a DM tells them not to do that. It's not metagaming.

And that's where my interpretion, which isn't a written rule but one that I will enforce in game, comes in: it is a long-standing practice that PnP flavour is acceptable and needs no permission, as long as it gives no additional benefit. I already pointed to simulating unavailable base and prestige classes with NWN builds (Shaman, bladesinger) or using minor spells just for flavour (levitating spellbook, a small illusion image on your hand) as commonly accepted things to do. To me, it is no great leap of logic to say that a character who can freely learn any standard language at the blink of an eye gains no additional benefit from saying it's because of Tongues, a toothfairy who whispers it in their ear or having eaten illithid brains. It's just an excuse for an already distasteful practice, and does make it even slightly more tolerable. Hells, what's to say the player and character aren't just lying about Tongues, and actually just decided they know a language?

Maybe you're right, and language rules should exist. Maybe there should be a rule about learning languages that can be pointed to. We've done just fine so far, without any. People shouldn't be so dependant on rules to determine what's cool and what isn't. Why write a rule, when an established social norm works just as well? No one who's posted in this topic thinks it's cool to pretend knowing all languages or to run around with Tongues on all day. And as far as I can see, it doesn't happen in game either. So why is it a problem?

If every PC knows every language they choose, I vote for removing every lore check on placeables regarding languages.

You know, the reason that it doesn't happen, Iron, could very well be that people thought there was a rule. It's always been treated like it was a rule, even by the DM Team. It's even been said multiple times in the past that there are rules which aren't written down, but are still enforced as if they are, so the argument that no one should have thought it was a rule because it was never written isn't relevant, either.

Keep in mind that essentially everything done on Amia besides shopping, hunting, and PvP is only there because of PnP conventions. Amia is a combat game. That's what it was designed for. Your logic that, because languages are a PnP concept, the use of them is automatic consent to PnP spells could be taken, without making any ridiculous leap of thinking, to the extent of "If you roleplay on Amia, you automatically consent to any other PnP concept." We might as well, then, be rid of the consent ruling in it's entirety, yes? Roleplaying is required on Amia, after all.

The key points are "Does this grant me an unfair advantage" and "Is this reasonable."

And I don't disagree with you on the stupidity of many things that could be done, even without breaking rules. You can be a complete arse who contributes nothing at all to Amia and not break a single rule. Of course, DMs will use their authority in correcting such behaviour, whether it says so in the rules or not, so it means Amia remains a place where people can role-play reasonably and without excessive disruption from others.

Do you claim you don't know what's cool language behaviour in game? Do you claim someone else in this topic doesn't? I'm certain everyone here knows if what they do is cool or not. Just because someone's analyzed the rules and their technical meaning doesn't mean you suddenly think lame is cool and change your RP in game.

If you think there should be a language rule, then what would it be? That is the crux of the issue. No one's come up with an acceptable solution in the half a dozen times this has been discussed over the years. We're discussing possible language rules again the DM forums, worry not. But personally, I doubt anything brilliant will come of it. Lacking the ability to create an acceptable rule about it, yet having done just fine for years without any mention of languages in the rules, I do believe doing nothing about it is the best solution.

Quote:

If you think there should be a language rule, then what would it be? That is the crux of the issue. No one's come up with an acceptable solution in the half a dozen times this has been discussed over the years

Really?

REALLY?

Did you *entirely forget* the whole "1 language per base INT mod" thing? The one we came up with years ago and have been going by? The reason it's never been discussed because it's always been there as a suitable solution?

Because that's been the 'rule'. That would be that elusive acceptable solution you're looking for.

Just because it's not what you want for your end result doesn't mean you get to dismiss it.

Perhaps something to add to it if you want the option of giving people the ability to learn additional languages as is quite possible, is to allow for every 10 ranks (IE Skill points or from Skill Focus: Lore, not item bonuses or similar) you can add one language to reflect the normal PnP option of taking languages through taking the Language skill.

Last edited by Dev Disco on Fri, Feb 06 2009, 19:05 PM, edited 1 time in total.

TormakSaber wrote:

Quote:

If you think there should be a language rule, then what would it be? That is the crux of the issue. No one's come up with an acceptable solution in the half a dozen times this has been discussed over the years

Really?

REALLY?

Did you *entirely forget* the whole "1 language per base INT mod" thing? The one we came up with years ago and have been going by? The reason it's never been discussed because it's always been there as a suitable solution?

Because that's been the 'rule'. That would be that elusive acceptable solution you're looking for.

Just because it's not what you want for your end result doesn't mean you get to dismiss it.

I think you are talking about different rules. Int mod languages is nice, but that's just a tiny part of the picture. I assume you want to make sure that people don't pick a language whenever it suits them. I doubt you want them to pick a language they cannot possibly have learned anywhere. If so, how do you make sure that doesn't happen? And if we have established that one, what are possible counters? How do you check those? What about people reading along? Can you blame them if they react to you, or is that your fault?

I think that is what Iron is pointing at. Publishing a rule about how many languages you can have without addressing the rest of the issues doesn't seem very useful, and making a rule that you probably won't or can't enforce isn't either. Especially when there isn't much of a problem anyway.

Make people post a bio of their character at or before level 10 or 15? That's a pretty common solution to making people stick with certain things, and not just changing them. Doesn't need to be a history, or anything, just a, "This is what he looks like. Oh, and he knows these languages."

O, damn. And I thought this was an online game instead of an administration office?

This thread brings back memories, and causes me to wonder:

Is it better that drow now talk openly in public in the drow tongue and then chew on the face of anyone who asks to understand it, or was it better when they were constantly emoting drow hand signs and translating in tells or in party chat so much that you thought those dark elves went deaf as well as blind from years of living in dark caves?

Last edited by IronAngel on Fri, Feb 06 2009, 19:14 PM, edited 1 time in total.

TormakSaber wrote:

Quote:

If you think there should be a language rule, then what would it be? That is the crux of the issue. No one's come up with an acceptable solution in the half a dozen times this has been discussed over the years

Really?

REALLY?

Did you *entirely forget* the whole "1 language per base INT mod" thing? The one we came up with years ago and have been going by? The reason it's never been discussed because it's always been there as a suitable solution?

Because that's been the 'rule'. That would be that elusive acceptable solution you're looking for.

Just because it's not what you want for your end result doesn't mean you get to dismiss it.

That solution is thouroughly unacceptable to me. It is a horrible, crude solution. By itself, at least. Like Disco pointed out, there's a lot more to cover. And, guess what, it already is covered in PnP rules. And those rules are stupid, too. Probably why we've never used them.

Yossarin wrote:

This thread brings back memories, and causes me to wonder:

Is it better that drow now talk openly in public in the drow tongue and then chew on the face of anyone who asks to understand it, or was it better when they were constantly emoting drow hand signs and translating in tells or in party chat so much that you thought those dark elves went deaf as well as blind from years of living in dark caves?

It was better when they remained in the UD (as proper Drow should do) so it wasn't a problem. :twisted:

O? They never did....?

Well here sure, but back when I first had a drow on Arelith pre-split Drow on the surface got hammered down so hard-core it was hilarious.

Granted my drow was so lawyer-esque and manipulative that when he was given the assignment to assasinate the lvl 20 paladin (that was the level cap back then.) and he was lvl 5, he baited the paladin into killing him for no other reason that his drow-ness and then got the king of Benwick to have him executed.

I agree with carter, in normal PnP, forgotten realms has something called "regions" which basically where someone can start from, the languages you start out, your bonus languages, and some starting gear you can chose from. Now I don't know how we could implement this, I suppose with a widget that you can only take once at start up. But a bio could be helpful, as it gives more info into a char.

disco: well if we had a bigger UD then we might not need to come to the surface.

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