AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

Okay, so not to mention names or events, I have noticed people are using PnP spells without asking permission from the players they are using it against, or a DM.

That being said, I'd like to remind people that any spell not included in NWN engine, but avaliable in PnP, is to have the permission of all parties effected by the spell, before it is used. That, or the permission of a DM to use the spell.

This specfically refers to the tongues spell, which many a mage uses with wild abandon. You cannot use this spell unless all effected by it have given permission, or you have permission from a DM. So you do not get to automatically understand every language just because you meet the required level for this spell. Same thing applies to scrying as well as other PnP feats and spells not included in the NWN engine.

Please remember this when rping. My thanks.

P.S.

If this rule has changed, and your a DM, please do correct me.

Update: To make the point, and clarify the exact rule, since many posts in this thread look very confusing, I've taken this quote from Tormaks post, found on page 3.

TormakSaber wrote:

As it stands, if you desire to use Tongues, you must ask permission, and you may not metagame a language simply because it's spoken, and also, the "int mod languages" is not a rule, merely a very happy suggestion.

Clarification on the Scribing.. I assume you mean Scrying and not Scribe Scroll?

Grymia wrote:

Clarification on the Scribing.. I assume you mean Scrying and not Scribe Scroll?

Crud. Yea, scrying. It's been one of those days. *Face palm*

IronAngel said it best;

Quote:

It is not really an abuse of that freedom, whether you like it or not. It's an existing PnP feat, and one of the few you can probably use without other players' consent: because languages are a PnP thing too, and by speaking a "foreign language" they're already giving said consent to themselves and therefore can't deny it from you. No NWN rule says you can't understand everything written on the Talk channel, after all. But yeah, I imagine it can be extremely annoying, and if it wasn't role-played seriously and with a lot of care and effort, I would simply avoid such characters in the future.

Typing [Drow] infront of your lines is an abuse of that freedom, if you do not have the justification for knowing the language (as defined by PnP rules, common sense and a conscious decision not to make your character a Mary-Sue).

WonWon wrote:

IronAngel said it best;

Quote:

It is not really an abuse of that freedom, whether you like it or not. It's an existing PnP feat, and one of the few you can probably use without other players' consent: because languages are a PnP thing too, and by speaking a "foreign language" they're already giving said consent to themselves and therefore can't deny it from you. No NWN rule says you can't understand everything written on the Talk channel, after all. But yeah, I imagine it can be extremely annoying, and if it wasn't role-played seriously and with a lot of care and effort, I would simply avoid such characters in the future.

Typing [Drow] infront of your lines is an abuse of that freedom, if you do not have the justification for knowing the language (as defined by PnP rules, common sense and a conscious decision not to make your character a Mary-Sue).

maybe he said it best, but that is really out of context, and some might hard it find to get what he is driving at.

aurelius311 wrote:

WonWon wrote:

IronAngel said it best;

Quote:

It is not really an abuse of that freedom, whether you like it or not. It's an existing PnP feat, and one of the few you can probably use without other players' consent: because languages are a PnP thing too, and by speaking a "foreign language" they're already giving said consent to themselves and therefore can't deny it from you. No NWN rule says you can't understand everything written on the Talk channel, after all. But yeah, I imagine it can be extremely annoying, and if it wasn't role-played seriously and with a lot of care and effort, I would simply avoid such characters in the future.

Typing [Drow] infront of your lines is an abuse of that freedom, if you do not have the justification for knowing the language (as defined by PnP rules, common sense and a conscious decision not to make your character a Mary-Sue).

maybe he said it best, but that is really out of context, and some might hard it find to get what he is driving at.

Mhmm, like me. Because as far as I'm concerned I will ignore anyone who uses the tongues spell on any of my characters without first asking if it's okay.

Because languages aren't an abusive spell that people use to ruin other peoples rp.

I mean, Iron's post is in complete contradiction of the OP post, right? Am i nuts?

It's more the simple point within it;

Languages are not an NWN mechanic. They're a PnP Mechanic. Therefore, in utilizing them, you agree to any and all counters to that mechanic.

Selvec Darkon wrote:

Because languages aren't an abusive spell that people use to ruin other peoples rp.

usually not on purpose, anyways. It does have that effect.

i, personally, think tongues is a copout. i had a great time communicating with an individual using body language and drawings because neither of us knew any mutual languages.

IronAngel wrote:

Typing [Drow] infront of your lines is an abuse of that freedom, if you do not have the justification for knowing the language (as defined by PnP rules, common sense and a conscious decision not to make your character a Mary-Sue).

The part I put in bold stands out the most here to me.

I feel that any RP'er worth their salt will do their best to ignore anything that is spoken in a language their character doesn't understand. When I create a character, I set aside a given number of languages based off the PnP ruleset that the character knows. All decisions are based off logical progressions.

For example, if my drow priestess has the ability to know 3 additional languages aside from drow and undercommon. Likely candidates for the languages could be common (spoken by pretty much all surface races and very prevalent), elven (drow are elves after all and they're language, while very different, does come from the same root language. similar to portugese and spanish), and then demonic (from her dealings with demons in the temple rituals).

I see a damned if you do, damned if you don't general rule here. If you type "[drow]blah, blah, blah" you apparently open yourself to people having the right to use tongues or whatever to understand what you're saying. If you use a translator and type "Usstan h'ros talinth d' jalbol ulu telanth ghil." You're called an RP elitist or you're using a completely made up language with no root in canon FR lore, etc.

So, I place before everyone this humble question. What is one supposed to do when faced with this situation. Drow players have drow handsign which is never taught to non-drow, so we have somewhat of a loophole, but what of an elf dealing with a hin or a tiefling dealing with a human?

If someone is going to use tongues IG and justify the context by using the "rule" Iron and Ron are stating, then be sure to ask them what 3rd level Wizard spell their going to burn for it.

Here's the definition, so we can atleast have a clear idea of what the spell does:

----------------------------------------------------------
Tongues

Divination
Level: Brd 2, Clr 4, Sor/Wiz 3
Components: V, M/DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Creature touched
Duration: 10 min./level
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: No

This spell grants the creature touched the ability to speak and understand the language of any intelligent creature, whether it is a racial tongue or a regional dialect. The subject can speak only one language at a time, although it may be able to understand several languages. Tongues does not enable the subject to speak with creatures who don’t speak. The subject can make itself understood as far as its voice carries. This spell does not predispose any creature addressed toward the subject in any way.

Tongues can be made permanent with a permanency spell.
----------------------------------------------------------

So it's a touch based spell that allows the target to speak one language and understand the language of any intelligent creature. The description also states there can be multiple intelligent creatures speaking different languages and the target would understand them all.

So here's where we need clarification from the DM's:

1.) Can this be cast on self

Regards,

Yes, it can. At least, back when my brother DM'ed PnP, it could...

I don't see why you ckouldn't designate yourself for the Touch.

Any spell with a range can be cast upon yourself as the target, bar spells that specify otherwise within their description. Even better, wizards casting Touch spells upon themselves also have the affect work upon the familiar.

So yes, you can indeed cast Tongues on yourself ; as well as anyone else you feel like.

Sweet, so there it is.

What about burning one level 3 spell?

Would we consider this a valid "compensation"?

I mean I understand there's no way to really enforce this sans the occassional DM watching the RP and seeing someone say they cast tongues and look at their spellbook and see no Lvl 3 spell used, et.al.

I'm just trying to come up with something that isn't such a freebie, and is a bit more realistic.

Regards,

FA_Frey_XC wrote:

Sweet, so there it is.

What about burning one level 3 spell?

Would we consider this a valid "compensation"?

I mean I understand there's no way to really enforce this sans the occassional DM watching the RP and seeing someone say they cast tongues and look at their spellbook and see no Lvl 3 spell used, et.al.

I'm just trying to come up with something that isn't such a freebie, and is a bit more realistic.

Regards,

If they're using a spell, they're using a spell. They ~have~ to give up a spell slot, otherwise they haven't cast the spell.
With a wizard you could probably argue if thy don't already have a spell slot open in their book they can't cast it, sice they didn't memorise it.

If someone wants to use PnP stuff they still need to obey the rules as far as I know.

Hold on a moment then. Using a PnP spell means they should have to know the spell. Why do they automatically know the spell then if they would never have chosen it anyway?

That's the exact same argument used against using listen vs bluff - would you have honestly gotten Sense Motive instead of Listen if it were available?
95% of the answers would be no.

And for a wizard it' entirely possible they would have gotten the spell if it were in the game.

Pfft... screw the Tongues spell, just get all your characters drunk. Then they'll understand each other no matter what language.

Too bad sober people won't though.

If wizards can use tounge spell as per pnp... can my assassin use pnp death attack on said wizard? You know, instant death?

QPR wrote:

If wizards can use tounge spell as per pnp... can my assassin use pnp death attack on said wizard? You know, instant death?

That's what Carter and I are trying to get DA changed to

Just for the fairness of it I mean. If a wizards decide that he can understand what everyone is talking about because there is a level 3 pnp spell, then he should accept every other pnp variant of things, no?

QPR wrote:

If wizards can use tounge spell as per pnp... can my assassin use pnp death attack on said wizard? You know, instant death?

Only If I can prepare Aclerity in contingency, to be set off if any attack or hostile action is made with or without my knowledge, to give me an immediate action to cast timestop, giving me 2 rounds with which to summon the avatar of Cheesus!

... the point being, your death attack wouldn't ever hit a PnP Wizard anyways

QPR wrote:

Just for the fairness of it I mean. If a wizards decide that he can understand what everyone is talking about because there is a level 3 pnp spell, then he should accept every other pnp variant of things, no?

Why should the wizard not understand using a PnP skill when you are using PnP languages to try ad hide it from him? Hence Iron's quote.

Drannok wrote:

Only If I can prepare Aclerity in contingency, to be set off if any attack or hostile action is made with or without my knowledge, to give me an immediate action to cast timestop, giving me 2 rounds with which to summon the avatar of Cheesus!

... the point being, your death attack wouldn't ever hit a PnP Wizard anyways

Sure, if you then spent money buying every ingredient you need for every spell that is memorized in your spell book, as well made room in your spell book for every pnp spell (which you should in some way display on beforehand) you could ever intend to use. And ofcourse take the consequences of messing too much with time and stuff.

Oh and ofcourse, a ranger should then be able to slay you in a single hit if he has your race as favoured enemy and scores acritical hit.

Point being, yes you can obviously use pnp spells and stuff, but then every other char should also be entiteled to use evry pnp ability they have for their class against you, without your given concent.

Second point being; please dont use it without concent, even if its legal.

Drannok wrote:

QPR wrote:

If wizards can use tounge spell as per pnp... can my assassin use pnp death attack on said wizard? You know, instant death?

Only If I can prepare Aclerity in contingency, to be set off if any attack or hostile action is made with or without my knowledge, to give me an immediate action to cast timestop, giving me 2 rounds with which to summon the avatar of Cheesus!

... the point being, your death attack wouldn't ever hit a PnP Wizard anyways :P

I didn't think either of the first two spells were in 3rd ed. I know they're not in the core rules ... can you please direct me to what 3rd ed book you got them from?

It's a bit naive (and that's an understatement) to put [Drow] in front of what you say expecting that people around you suddenly stop registering what you are saying. It's beyond an open invitation to metagaming, it's almost forcing metagaming upon people. Besides, it's bloody cheap. Be a dude and learn enough Drow words to make your conversation truly unreadable for outsiders.

To be more on topic, PnP spells should be used with ~extreme~ descretion in my opinion.

There are so many terribly unfair things spell casters, especially arcane, can do with low level spells, let alone the high end ones, that it can get way out of hand very quickly.

I rampantly abuse Prestidigitation (for which i sacrifice virtue, a cantrip) which is also known as "Minor Wish". If you read the description you will come to the understanding that the spell can do almost anything that doesn't have a direct effect on combat or another character. And it's a cantrip.

To paint a horrific picture for you, you can use two meta magic feats and a fouth circle spell slot to ~NUKE A CITY~ legally. You add two meta magic effects to scry city, and it causes everything in the three mile radius to be pushed to the edge of the spells effect and take 1d4 damage per five feet.

... yeah.

Contingent Aclerity is the high level Wizards "I always win" clause.

Rope Trick is the "You can't get me while I prepare my spells, neeneer neeneer" spell.

So ... PnP spells aren't really a good thing. I even think Tongues is pushing it because it does indeed nullify any sort of secret communication for a level three slot, and does really annoy many people.

And, yes, I know I stink at spelling.

Dev Disco wrote:

It's a bit naive (and that's an understatement) to put [Drow] in front of what you say expecting that people around you suddenly stop registering what you are saying. It's beyond an open invitation to metagaming, it's almost forcing metagaming upon people. Besides, it's bloody cheap. Be a dude and learn enough Drow words to make your conversation truly unreadable for outsiders.

Then you have the problem of people calling you an RP elitist. Of course, no metagaming. Especially if you fix up the grammar so that the translator can't change it back =D

I'd agree to that speaking in talk, in a crowded city and putting *dorw* before it is rather cheap, but I was more thinking of situatiosn where you ahve two or more characters speaking in hushed voices away from other characters, in a language only they understand to be certain that noone is eavesdropping, where a wizard sits some distance away with amplify and tounge spell and goes "aha, i know what thee are plotting!"

Or a druid circle being spied on. Or a secret meeting where rogue cant or something is used.

Yurell wrote:

I didn't think either of the first two spells were in 3rd ed. I know they're not in the core rules ... can you please direct me to what 3rd ed book you got them from?

Contingency is. Aclerity is 3.5 and in the Tome of Magic book.

But that's a bit unfair because there are pleanty of 3.5 rules in Amia as well as 3.0 rules.

I'm sure I could go find 3.0 sources and break it even more open if you ~really~ want me too.

A skill stacked Bard could take over the world in 3.0 with preform and fascinate alone, before epic. The example can work in an infinite number of ways.

Yurell wrote:

Dev Disco wrote:

It's a bit naive (and that's an understatement) to put [Drow] in front of what you say expecting that people around you suddenly stop registering what you are saying. It's beyond an open invitation to metagaming, it's almost forcing metagaming upon people. Besides, it's bloody cheap. Be a dude and learn enough Drow words to make your conversation truly unreadable for outsiders.

Then you have the problem of people calling you an RP elitist. Of course, no metagaming. Especially if you fix up the grammar so that the translator can't change it back =D

Still, it IS bloody cheap to count your Int mod points, assume you can talk X languages, and put those in front of your conversation... and tada, everybody around you needs to put a mental filter on. It's like rolling your Sorceror Cha, claim you did a brilliant speech, and expect the whole town to adore you.

Well, I must admit that most of the time the content is so boring that it might have been better that I couldn't understand it at all.

Most honest characters that do that Disco do it before hand, or as their INT goes up and they get to learn a new language.

Frey's languages are already denoted and if he sees someone typing [Drow} b lah blah blah he's not going to understand it if he doesn't have Drow listed there.

That's how everyone should do it, but I agree that putting [lang] xxxx does immediately open you for counters.

The DM's have spoken, and the question has been answered.

Locksies?

Regards,

QPR wrote:

where a wizard sits some distance away with amplify and tounge spell and goes "aha, i know what thee are plotting!"

Sneak up on him and start banging on some tin cans, now that will make him go deaf. Have fun listening now! HAH! ^^

Edit: And I put on a mental filter when people speak language my character doesn't knows.

tenu, disco. Usstan sieva nindel ol orn'la tlu tenu whol uns'aa ulu telanth fridj wun trantz ilythiiri lu' naut wun english? Nindol d' heen orn'la morfeth ol dubo whol nindyn vel'uss xun naut kampi'un ilythiiri ulu zhaun vel'bol Usstan tlun ezual drill ol orn'la vrine'winith lodias dal zhaunl vel'bol Usstan tlun ezual 'zil ussta ilythiiri vel'drav nind zhal'la naut zhaun ilythiiri.

anyways back into english, I like frey have languages already designated for my chars. for example, my elves do not know drow and if they see somone going [drow] blah blah blah. she won't know what they are saying. Same with my drow and elven.

Suppose you read someone go "(drow) Let's ambush those folks later tonight!"

Will you as a player un-learn what you heard? Nope. You can try as hard as you want to play it out as if your character didn't know, but you do. It has an effect on RP one way or the other.

Although I'd say the fault lies with the people who won't switch to *emotes speaking in drow*, and not with those who fear metagaming so much that they'll be clueless on purpose.

are there not widgets that can make you speak in another language and have it so that only people with that widget would understand it? I have seen it on some other servers so what about porting it to amia? it would prevent meta gaming.

It spams the DM channel, so they won't use it.

Spam the Dm channel or have people meta game you or use a made up langauge translator and be called elitiest?

xordae wrote:

It spams the DM channel, so they won't use it.

Not anymore. Since 1.69's on_pc_chat event. I got a chatproject after I'm done with the ACM.

WHICH happen to be screwy on me, so I'll prolly rewrite it again. :evil:

so you are saying terra that it is possible for there to be a language feature in amia?

if it is added, I do have a question though how would someone get the language widgets?

I honestly believe that I don't let something my character doesn't know (or didn't understand) effect their IC actions in any way. Someone is speaking a language they don't understand, then they don't understand it. I may read it for my own pleasure, but I strive to ensure it doesn't effect the character.

Personally, I'm going to staunchly oppose any language widgets for various reasons I've stated before. Lameness, huge DM workload, micromanaging, the made-up-ness of the translations and the inability to pick up words your character recognizes even if he doesn't know the language being some of them.

But anyway, it'll be discussed if it ever becomes relevant. No questions you might have can be answered now, Herkles, aside from the technical bits of how it could be done.

Its possible but probably won't be on Amia for reasons Iron mentioned. I'll fix voice throwing to the summons though!

ji vholk, ulu morfeth zhaunus nindel nindyn vel'uss xun naut zhaun ilythiiri ph' naut izil ulu kampi'un ilythiiri, Usstan shlu'ta kl'ae natha translator ulu morfeth zhaunus nindel er'griff nindyn nindel kampi'un l' ilythiiri xanalress shlu'ta kampi'un lu' naut fridj jaluss tir l' ssrethalas?

so iron, to make sure that those who do not know drow are not able to understand drow, I can use a translator to make sure that only those that understand the drow language can understand and not just anyone off the streets?

FA_Frey_XC wrote:

Most honest characters that do that Disco do it before hand, or as their INT goes up and they get to learn a new language.

Frey's languages are already denoted and if he sees someone typing [Drow} b lah blah blah he's not going to understand it if he doesn't have Drow listed there.

That's how everyone should do it, but I agree that putting [lang] xxxx does immediately open you for counters.

The DM's have spoken, and the question has been answered.

Locksies?

Regards,

Thats pretty much the standard method on most servers for languages.

And yes, his topic has met it's purpose, even if one of the answers was dung in my opinion.

herkles wrote:

so iron, to make sure that those who do not know drow are not able to understand drow, I can use a translator to make sure that only those that understand the drow language can understand and not just anyone off the streets?

I don't care what you do. Speak backwards and replace all a's with a z, if it floats your boat. Languages are not really a part of NWN, so if you take the liberty to use a PnP ability (which language proficiency is) without permission, you can't really complain about other players' reactions.

It's not a matter handled by rules, but by common sense. If someone's style irks you, just don't play with them. That's what I do, and I have never, ever had problems with metagaming.

Finally, Iron, you get back to posting things i *don't* agree with. Thank you. It truly was getting annoying agreeing with you so often. Breaks with tradition, y'know.

The DM's have spoken, so we are required to follow the rules they set out. But that certainly doesn't mean we need to like them.

Personally, I think that the DM's are flat out countering what they commonly tell us, that being to USE COMMON SENSE.

Iron, languages are a no-brainer - they are logically existant when we have all these different races and subraces. They aren't "some random pnp spell/feat/whatever, that a D&D knowledgable person can use, that the normal layman wouldn't know anything about."

That a Drow can speak Drow, is not a huge leap. It doesn't have moronic rules and counters - and no, using the tongues spell is not a counter, it's a distinct spell with distinct rules to it's use, and with distinct effects. It doesn't "counter" speaking another language, it merely allows the target of the spell to ALSO speak and understand said language.

Common sense says that a different race would have it's own language. You don't even have to know everything or anything about D&D for this level of common sense. NWN mechanics very easily allow for speaking another language in a ROLE PLAY manner.

Use of a tongues spell is NOT common sense. It DOES require knowledge about D&D to use it properly, it cannot be duplicated by NWN mechanics, and the average layman is not going to know all it's in's and out's.

How many wizards, please with a show of hands (or a post) are going to right now claim they always keep that spell memorised "just in case". That said, if anyone actually claims this, which spell do you fill a level 3 slot with, in order to emulate that spell? And then, do you NEVER use that level 3 spell slot, or the spell you claim to be using as a filler, except for when deciding to "use" tongues? Or, are the dm's also going to say that "oh, permission has been given to find a way around use of languages, by rp'ly speaking another language" as also being permission for all wizards to have cast permanancy on their tongues spells, so they no longer *need* to "cast tongues"whenever they wish to understand another language?

Frankly, I think this "ruling" is utterly absurd. I'll abide by it of course. That's the rules. But I think at this point, the DM's, if this ruling is indeed a voted on and accepted as a rule (by a majority of the dm team), are outright declaring that common sense should be tossed out teh window, and that it seems to me like there is free-reign for D&D knowledgable people to use their fancy pnp feats and spells to their hearts content.

After all, by using *anything* that exists in pnp, aren't we automatically giving consent for anything else that exists in pnp to be used as a "counter" (which I really still don't think use of tongues vs. a racial language, counts as). Sure seems like that's what this ruling is stating.

***INCIDENTALLY***
Several on-forum "official" bits of info on races/subraces, specifically include that said race speaks their language. Earth Genasi, for instance, on the sidebar, the description states that they speak Terran.

Please show me where in the sidebar or Rules And Lore Forum, all the info on the use of the Tongues spell is, alongside the dm declaration that it's officially allowable without permission? I also think it'd be pretty reasonable for the DM's to list precisely how to use the tongues spell, including which spells (preferably a very useless one) should be kept memorised, and cast, to "fill in" for the lack of an actual tongues spell, for each class able to use "Tongues".

Don't say it's covered by the clause about using pnp feats/spells with permission of the other party, because nowhere in those race/subrace descriptions does it say that speaking these other languages is subject to permission from anyone around you at the time, and the above listed ruling from Iron clearly states that permission is NOT needed for someone to use "Tongues".

Again, DnD in social context fails. Even moreso with NWN.

If the person is a mage and they cast tongues, they cast tongues. My character knows they cast a spell because they chatted mumbo-jumbo before. At that point he stops saying anything relevant or becomes down-right insulting.

All of my characters have thier reasons for knowing languages. None use Tongues, but in the event it is used, I'm cool with it. Talk in whispers if it's actually a secret. If you don't want someone to know what you are talking about, it's best not to say it out loud in the middle of the street just because you know a well known language, or even a relatively minor language.

PnP Spells and Abilities (A Reminder)

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