It just has to be said as the only way to see a change is for people to realize there is an issue...
Please for the love of the flying spaghetti monster UN-HIDE yourselves when you are manipulating doors and gates. Do I care if you walk around places fully hidden even in the daylight? Not really. Come up with what ever justification for that ya want. Abuse the hide skill till it becomes second nature for all I care. Just stop ruining immersion.
Doesn't matter how you spin it, I just find it hard to believe you can manipulate something so obvious as the gate to a town that is being guarded/monitored by NPCs and PCs alike while hidden.
This goes for anyone of the 'Sneaker' variety. Please stop opening gates and doors when hidden.
~This has been a public service announcement brought to you by the one and only DS. Have a nice day and return promptly to your regularly scheduled RP.~
_________________ Eli Hodgewall<{/,~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~X Sven<=={o===========> Qeelak\ | / ,
Perhaps opening any door, gate, etc. should temporarily impose a 5 second -20 Hide/MS. Obviously if someone is now looking/listening directly in the direction of something being openned, logically the chances of spotting you should rocket up.
Continual light is an effect if casted on others just as light is, I can atleast say its not permanent and the BoT page variant is turns/cl.
_________________ Fear is not evil… It tells you what your weakness is. And once you know your weakness, you can become stronger as well as kinder. - Gildarts Clive, Fairy Tail, Hiro Mashima.
Is hide a magical ability? How does it work, and what about HiPS?
Why does it that when an invisible mage can be seen when bumping into them at point blank while sneakers remain hidden? Does my PC just feel that he has bumped into an invisible wall?
1) Accept that you're playing a video game that implements stealth mode as an arguably better type of invisibility, chalk it up to magic ICly, adapt and overcome OOCly.
2) Maintain that it's realistic stealth of staying behind opaque objects, take all ~500 area in the module, take screenshots of their maps and shade in the areas you think it's feasible to use stealth in. Also compose a list of actions you consider impossible. Succesfully lobby the DMs to enforce this.
It just has to be said as the only way to see a change is for people to realize there is an issue...
Please for the love of the flying spaghetti monster UN-HIDE yourselves when you are manipulating doors and gates. Do I care if you walk around places fully hidden even in the daylight? Not really. Come up with what ever justification for that ya want. Abuse the hide skill till it becomes second nature for all I care. Just stop ruining immersion.
Doesn't matter how you spin it, I just find it hard to believe you can manipulate something so obvious as the gate to a town that is being guarded/monitored by NPCs and PCs alike while hidden.
This goes for anyone of the 'Sneaker' variety. Please stop opening gates and doors when hidden.
~This has been a public service announcement brought to you by the one and only DS. Have a nice day and return promptly to your regularly scheduled RP.~
If it's reasonable for them to be fully hidden right next to the door, why isn't it reasonable for them to be fully hidden right next to the door with their hand on the knob?
As they they can remain out of sight but can't hide the fact that the door is opening, it seems to me that the engine is fairly consistent with this!
HIPS? or someone runnin about with stealth mode on? And no prob. I'm up for the challenge. ^^ wouldn't have stepped up to the plate otherwise. Keep 'em commin.
BTW: I don't wish this thread to become a haves vs have nots. Anyone with enough spot could likely tag any one of the sneaks. What the comment is on is the poor RP of physically opening up a gate whilst claiming to be hidden when they are the only one trying to manipulate the gate. If I saw a gate opening on its own I'd fire my shotgun at it. Game wise I expect any guard or nearby adventurer to react in kind with what ever they can use that is tech appropriate. Especially if I knew it was shut and there is not a group around.
So the ridicule stands as is. Learn from it. Grow a pair and step up to the level of RP expected by you all. That is all.
Happy sneaking!
_________________ Eli Hodgewall<{/,~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~X Sven<=={o===========> Qeelak\ | / ,
Last edited by DustSpray101 on Thu, Jan 29 2009, 10:46 AM, edited 1 time in total.
If you insist on trying to put 'realism' into it, then you see nothing. The sneak first opened the handle so slowly that your poor Spot didn't notice it moving, used a McGyver to keep it in place, when you were blinking or looking away, nudged the door open from the bottom corner and withdrew his hand to whatever hiding place he had beside the door.
If you had good Spot, you'd know to look anywhere *but* the handle.
See? You can put a RP spin on it if you want. However, what I want to know is how the sneak got into this hiding place beside the door, and why you don't have a problem with that.
HIPS? or someone runnin about with stealth mode on? And no prob. I'm up for the challenge. ^^ wouldn't have stepped up to the plate otherwise. Keep 'em commin.
Less of the wah and more of the rawr when sneaky types do their thing, that's the spirit.
Joined: 04 Sep 2007 Location: Down South and Bent Edge
Sorry lulz what. If my character is stealthed and opens a door so what.
Mechanically its not my fault i can't go through a window or scale a wall. Far as i see people going through gates HiPSed are actually scaling the wall, sneaking in through a kitchen outlet or going through a window.
NwN doesn't mechanically support espionage so we make do.
_________________ I play: Gage le Gris Socially and recently politically Inept Knight of Xymor
To be honest, I don't see why the DMs should have to enforce something like this. They shouldn't need to at all.
Players of Sneaks that take issue with this post: Swallow your pride a bit. I know, the thought of not PWNing (or whatever the cool little acronym for it is) the server with your 1337 skill dump or legitimate build up of the hide skill may be hard for you to swallow so I suggest downing it with some honey. Players should be able to do this on their own and take pride in their RP. Yes, this is a game, but if you are a SD, you should learn shadow jump, use that as your 'RP way of jumping over the fence' and let that be that. Its not painful and it keeps you hidden. Other lovely thing: Patience. Gates and doors have this odd way of opening when visible people pass by. Why not adjust to actually walking right out that front gate through waiting for a PC to open the gate or door for ya?
I suppose at the core of this is Sneaks should not be seen or heard if they are being played right. So why is it they need to make their presence so readily known by doing stupid things like that?
_________________ Eli Hodgewall<{/,~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~X Sven<=={o===========> Qeelak\ | / ,
I could swear that mundane actions do not break stealth, as per the rules. Attacking and spellcasting break stealth.
I can't find the reference now (and am too occupied with other things to look throughly), but I'm 99,9% certain it's there.
So, it functions just as it should. Could have house rules and not allow it, but why bother? It would mean extra work for DMs and devs, as well as extra scripts running and adding to the lag.
A shadowdancer can use the Hide skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Doesn't even comment on actions able to be taken. Lets take a look at the Hide Skill. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Quote:
Hide Check
Your Hide check is opposed by the Spot check of anyone who might see you. You can move up to one-half your normal speed and hide at no penalty. When moving at a speed greater than one-half but less than your normal speed, you take a –5 penalty. It’s practically impossible (–20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running or charging.
A creature larger or smaller than Medium takes a size bonus or penalty on Hide checks depending on its size category: Fine +16, Diminutive +12, Tiny +8, Small +4, Large –4, Huge –8, Gargantuan –12, Colossal –16.
You need cover or concealment in order to attempt a Hide check. Total cover or total concealment usually (but not always; see Special, below) obviates the need for a Hide check, since nothing can see you anyway.
If people are observing you, even casually, you can’t hide. You can run around a corner or behind cover so that you’re out of sight and then hide, but the others then know at least where you went.
If your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a Bluff check; see below), though, you can attempt to hide. While the others turn their attention from you, you can attempt a Hide check if you can get to a hiding place of some kind. (As a general guideline, the hiding place has to be within 1 foot per rank you have in Hide.) This check, however, is made at a –10 penalty because you have to move fast.
Sniping
If you’ve already successfully hidden at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack, then immediately hide again. You take a -20 penalty on your Hide check to conceal yourself after the shot. Creating a Diversion to Hide
You can use Bluff to help you hide. A successful Bluff check can give you the momentary diversion you need to attempt a Hide check while people are aware of you.
Action
Usually none. Normally, you make a Hide check as part of movement, so it doesn’t take a separate action. However, hiding immediately after a ranged attack (see Sniping, above) is a move action.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unless this was House Ruled someplace, I can't find any mention of what you are referencing.
it isn't called ~Move Silently~ for nothing. although it is a bit ridiculous. at least make it swing shut faster when done by someone in stealth mode (to show it just peeking open enough for a sneaky little man to get through) and make it not make the door noise.
I suppose at the core of this is Sneaks should not be seen or heard if they are being played right. So why is it they need to make their presence so readily known by doing stupid things like that?
Dunno about the other sneaks, but in the case of mine it's because they habitually enter the spazpits of Wiltun and Cordor under stealth, and will stay that way unless they see someone they want or need to talk to.
The guards have already seen me and let me in(I'd be breaking major rules if I went in when banned), so they're not going to give a toss if I hide from the civlians. Your statement about shotguns opening fire at every opening door is getting a hefty dose of shenanigans called on it in a city.
I don't care if anyone knows a sneak is going into a merchant, since I'll port out once I'm finished commercing anyway. I just don't want them to know the sneak is me.
If I am sneaking in earnest, then yep, opening doors is deeply stupid, so not even Va does that. Conversely any secret meeting I'll have will be on the far side of a double set.
just because it is a game doesn't mean that people can abuse the stealth ability any time they want. it is up to them to RP the situation, and anyone hiding in an open field of nothingness is abusing their skill.
adapt? im fine with that, but the problem is making it evident that the person hiding in the open field is opening doors constantly.
i don't think they would be hiding if they are willingly performing an action to jeopardize their hiding ability.
Joined: 10 Aug 2005 Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
I agree with the post abovereferring to not being able to scale a wall or enter through a window, or such.
For example, if you are in a building, and want to take a peek through the door to see if someone/something is outside, you can either send a tell to someone who's out there, or you can just go through the stupid door and emote what it is you've done.
I prefer the latter. Sending a tell allows no chance for others to react, and should pretty much be avoided at all cost for ic activity (in my opinion). Physically walking through a door and emoting something, well, yes, some people will god mode and decide their character sees all and knows all. Up to you whether you wish to continue rp'ing with such a person. I wouldn't.
So, since anyone sneaking can't do these things, or can't go for a swim around a wall, that sort of thing, I don't mind so much if they use a gate or door while hidden. I'd *prefer* if they emoted having done something else (so we'd know that they didn't *actually* use the gate, and to ignore it as ooc), but I also understand the fear of then being metagamed, because we've all seen a million times that a lot of people just god mode things like that. Unfortunately.
_________________ Role with the Punches...
Elan: A 10% chance is pretty unlikely, but everyone knows that a one-in-a-million chance is a sure thing!
people have dice bags, the stealther would have to physically cancel his stealth mode and roll it up. both parties should understand why the guy would have to unstealth. it works better than just opening a door which grabs everyone's attention.
Joined: 10 Aug 2005 Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Should only grab your attention if you are either close to the door, or facing it. If you are facing away, and not overly close, why should you even notice?
Just because you *the player* can see everything on the screen, doesn't mean your character should.
By god moding, I refer to people who refuse to *NOT* notice things, deciding that no matter what, their character is gonna notice everything the *player* can see, just because they gave the pc high spot or listen, or just because they choose to.
Plus, have you never had a not-quite closed door get blown open by a gust of wind? Just because you *the player* know that such things are mechanically not gonna happen in the game, doesn't mean your character can't assume such a thing.
Rolling with the dicebag is far more of an interruption in my opinion. I not only won't demand it, but I also won't respond to such requests, 99% of the time. Role play is what I'm here for. Not roll play. If YOU prefer to do it that way, that's your choice, and there's nopthing wrong with that. But I don't neeed Ruce's black box with random numbers written on teh side, to have my character think a door was blown open by the wind.
_________________ Role with the Punches...
Elan: A 10% chance is pretty unlikely, but everyone knows that a one-in-a-million chance is a sure thing!
It just has to be said as the only way to see a change is for people to realize there is an issue...
Quote:
Yes, I agree
Well good luck with that.....
Not really going to happen while people just do whatever the game engine lets them, and then find an r/p justification for it 'after the fact' (don't mean this particularly, but a lot of stuff here).
EDIT: Can't see what is wrong with teh quote above to fix it in mine.....sorry.
_________________ "Never ascribe to malice, that which can be explained by incompetence" ~ Napoleon Bonaparte. - Clearly, Napoleon never envisioned the Internet......where I'd judge it about 50/50.
Last edited by Brown Blur on Thu, Jan 29 2009, 21:05 PM, edited 1 time in total.
Should only grab your attention if you are either close to the door, or facing it. If you are facing away, and not overly close, why should you even notice?
Generally I use my character's wisdom to see how much they would percieve in a room. I certainly don't treat them like robots looking through sniper scopes 100% of the time, and specifically not when I'm in no particular conversation
Quote:
Just because you *the player* can see everything on the screen, doesn't mean your character should.
Just because your character isn't looking at the door doesn't mean that he/she should not recognize it being opened.
Quote:
By god moding, I refer to people who refuse to *NOT* notice things, deciding that no matter what, their character is gonna notice everything the *player* can see, just because they gave the pc high spot or listen, or just because they choose to.
I've seen a lot of roleplay over the years on servers with 50+ people, and they tend to keep it legit. With this god-moding business, I'm sure you can flip the observer's call around as in 'the person walking behind them is not gonna be unseen 24/7'. Opening a door while being stealthed and walking in (that is what I am assuming this topic is referring too) is abusive. No other words for that.
Quote:
Plus, have you never had a not-quite closed door get blown open by a gust of wind?
conveniently on amia most of the people are shadow dancers, and there are very few low levels. my characters have all 'adapted' in assuming that people are shadow dancers, magic is definately not something special, the same with the ability to be invisible. have i seen a door blown open by wind? not really... no... not inside of a building of some sort. other than that, my characters have seen no evil drow as of the moment... which is odd enough.
Quote:
Just because you *the player* know that such things are mechanically not gonna happen in the game, doesn't mean your character can't assume such a thing.
hiding in plain sight is only legit by shadow dancers (with shadows in the area EMPHASIS HERE) or an invisible person
Quote:
Rolling with the dicebag is far more of an interruption in my opinion. I not only won't demand it, but I also won't respond to such requests, 99% of the time. Role play is what I'm here for. Not roll play. If YOU prefer to do it that way, that's your choice, and there's nopthing wrong with that. But I don't neeed Ruce's black box with random numbers written on teh side, to have my character think a door was blown open by the wind.
then i'd expect a brief explanation on why the door just opened up, instead of opening it and assuming people will ignore it because everyone knows that IC and OOC that there is a stealther there. it is way to common to ignore, and way to convenient for the stealther if it is ignored.
It just has to be said as the only way to see a change is for people to realize there is an issue...
Quote:
Yes, I agree
Well good luck with that.....
Not really going to happen while people just do whatever the game engine lets them, and then find an r/p justification for it 'after the fact' (don't mean this particularly, but a lot of stuff here).
things can change if enough people stand behind an idea.
I take it as I see it. If a door opens magically I think, uh-oh stealther or invis inc.
Also, I won't consider it magic. If it is magic then TS should see through it no?
I just see it as REALLY good hiding. I mean we are dealing with people so much more powerful than you and I that what we think is impossible, they do three times before breakfast and maybe twice on Sundays.
things can change if enough people stand behind an idea.
True, though I have to admit I sometimes feel too old and jaded to try!
_________________ "Never ascribe to malice, that which can be explained by incompetence" ~ Napoleon Bonaparte. - Clearly, Napoleon never envisioned the Internet......where I'd judge it about 50/50.
I agree with Ruce. Trying to act like it should follow the rules of real life is never going to work. Its not like that. You cant say "you could never open a gate without being noticed." Yeah? Well you could never turn yourself into a dragon either, yet there it is.
The skills are "hide" and "move silently" not "duck behind the couch". If thats what it was, every toon would have 150 hide, because anyone can do that.
_________________ "Earnest Hemingway once wrote, 'The world is a fine place, and worth fighting for.' I agree with the second part."
[Kegs] Angry Dwarf
[Akly] Angry Halfling
Last edited by aurelius311 on Thu, Jan 29 2009, 21:42 PM, edited 1 time in total.
Joined: 10 Aug 2005 Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Moridan_X wrote:
Generally I use my character's wisdom to see how much they would percieve in a room. I certainly don't treat them like robots looking through sniper scopes 100% of the time, and specifically not when I'm in no particular conversation
If you are facing completely away from a door, it has nothing to do with "seeing through a sniper scope". Even with excellent peripheral vision, there's no reason for your pc to see everything you the player can see.
Quote:
Just because your character isn't looking at the door doesn't mean that he/she should not recognize it being opened.
Also part of the above response, but if you are not close to it, there's no reason to assume it is going to make enough noise for you to realise anything happened at all. You really seem insistant on having your character be able to percieve everything you as a player can.
Quote:
Opening a door while being stealthed and walking in (that is what I am assuming this topic is referring too) is abusive. No other words for that.
I personally am pretty "aware" of what's going on around me. That's one major reason why I've never been in a vehicle accident while I was driving. I've defensively avoided many many "near" collisions that would've been caused by the other driver. And yet, despite this fact, despite being very aware of my surroundings, I've still had people open a door that was not in my field of vision, quietly enough that I didn't hear it, and it was completely unintentional on their part. They weren't *trying* to be unnoticed, they just weren't going out of their way TO be noticed. When they spoke, it surprised me. Why can't the same thing happen to my character? Why can't it happen to yours?
Quote:
have i seen a door blown open by wind? not really... no... not inside of a building of some sort.
Okay, granted, I'm not saying that *every* time a SD does something like opening a door, it is *always* justifiable. But then, I saw nothing in the O.P. that specifies "only doors inside buildings, not leading to outdoors". I've seen shop doors blow open in strong winds, even when they *were* closed all the way, simply because the wind was so strong it created suction from the pressure difference inside the store vs outside. I've seen doors inside buildings swing open on their own due to not being perfectly set in the frame or due to the building having shifted as it settled after construction. In fact, my bathroom door does this frequently.
Quote:
hiding in plain sight is only legit by shadow dancers (with shadows in the area EMPHASIS HERE) or an invisible person
I'll agree that I don't think everythign about stealth is well done. I certainly don't think that a high hide/ms person should still be able to not be seen when standing right in front of my eyes just a foot, unless it's magical stealth. Since, in NWN, they CAN do that, I operate on the basis that yes, stealth is supernatural/magical. I'll agree though, that a non-SD really should put thought into how they act. And many of them do.
Quote:
then i'd expect a brief explanation on why the door just opened up, instead of opening it and assuming people will ignore it because everyone knows that IC and OOC that there is a stealther there. it is way to common to ignore, and way to convenient for the stealther if it is ignored.
Everyone does NOT know IC. They know OOC, and make the concious CHOICE to make that knowledge IC. THAT is god moding. Heaven fordbid you make something easy for someone else, by not transferring ooc knowledge of game mechanics to IC knowledge. Why MUST you know? Is the universe going to end if you icly don't? Is all your fun ruined, because omg, your character isn't a god, doesn't see all and know all? I don't mean this as an attack or insult, I mean it as a genuine question. Is it that you are unable, or is it unwilling, to not have your character *know* that it's a stealther when a gate opens? It has to be one of those two.
And just as a note, I don't play a stealther. I dislike stealth, because I don't think it was implemented very well. I think it was designed for single player use, and balanced for that, and does not take a lot of "circumstance" issues into mind. I think the same thing regarding combat though, honestly. I still can't come up with a good reason why a level 2 goblin couldn't get lucky with an arrow shot and have it shoot through my eye and instakill me. It's one of those things we have to live with.
edit: fairly major typo in last paragraph
_________________ Role with the Punches...
Elan: A 10% chance is pretty unlikely, but everyone knows that a one-in-a-million chance is a sure thing!
the same reason why someone with good stealth can be not seen to you when standing right infront of you is the answer to why you can open a door and not be seen.
the same reason why someone with good stealth can be not seen to you when standing right infront of you is the answer to why you can open a door and not be seen.
Ah ha, some rare words of true wisdom from herkles.
Also I'm gonna use Gust of Wind to open doors all the time now and really fuck with you people.
_________________ Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
I don't care how hidden you are, if my character's facing the right way, or is close enough, their going to know the door/gate/ect just moved. They may not see or know who did it, but they'll darn be aware. I can't imagine anyone opening my house door [which is totally silent] and me not knowing I was just hit by a breeze cold or warm; because it's not just sound you're trying to avoid or being looked at. So...nya.
_________________ Weston Carter ~Salandran~ : Retired Carters Leave Amia
Yeah thats the trouble.....its not known whether its someone bent on theft and murder, or someone who just forgot they invis or sneaking, or some sad case pushing at the gates and running away....
_________________ "Never ascribe to malice, that which can be explained by incompetence" ~ Napoleon Bonaparte. - Clearly, Napoleon never envisioned the Internet......where I'd judge it about 50/50.
Last edited by Brown Blur on Fri, Jan 30 2009, 2:19 AM, edited 1 time in total.
Yeah thats teh trouble.....its not known whether its someone bent on therft and murder, or someone who just forgot they invis or sneaking, or some sad case pushing at the gates and running away.
people forget this? wow... I would always assume they are up to no good. If its something they are allowed to do and won't be looked down upon, they would do it in the open.
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