When the french invaded england they used to remove longbow users index and middle finger so that they where unable to use a bow again. Its from here the two fingers insult originated(So i was once told a long time ago by a history teacher).

The French never succesfully raided England, in the early middle ages they landed a few Soldiers and burnt cities (My home city of Portsmouth being one of them) but the last time they succesfully invaded us was 1066 and that was before the longbow.

Though your teacher was indeed correct that the French used to cut off the Middle and Index fingers of captured British Archers.

[/EndHistoryRant]

It does make sense if dev crit does work with the crossbow. 'cos you know, any (sensible) kind of weapon can kill someone in one hit.

I find myself agreeing with him.

The damage system in NWN is perhaps the most just-a-game-y part of it. The stealth engine makes more sense, which is a damning indictment indeed.

Logically the thing that's wrong with Devcrit is that every big hitter doesn't just get it automatically; quite how one crit can do 280 but have no chance of being Devastating, while another can be 70 and threaten death is beyond me. Oh...no it's not: it's just a game.

My objection to low-damage Devcrit outwith Monks is therefore pretty much aesthetic.

Does anyone else think the crit ranges on crossbows and bows are mixed up? Crossbow seems the more x3 and bows the more 19-20x2 to me. Same goes for rapiers and daggers. They scream x4 to me.

I agree with you too ... that's two people in a row. Unfortunately we don't have the whole PnP system of "if it's over 50 damage, fortitude save or die"

There was another big difference between the longbow and crossbow. Crossbows, as already mentioned, could penetrate plate armour. Recent practical archaeology experiments have demonstrated that the famed bodkins fired from longbows could likely be relied upon to bypass chain armour, but could not penetrate plate as popularly believed.

The English didn't win the Battle of Agincourt with the longbow, the French lost it with poor tactics and noble idiocy.

BTW, Galenson, if you're going to be throwing around racial slurs you should at least spell them correctly. Abo is a contraction of Aborigine, Abbo doesn't mean anything.

Incorrect. Terrain, height and range, plus weather conditions, are what helped win the battle. Without the longbow with it's range, the french would have simply marched bombard cannons into range and blasted the english as they came into close range combat/crossbow. Without the english's mastery of the longbow, the tactics used at Againcourt would never have even been developed, yet alone put into play.

Thus, Longbow = win. Which is moot point in comparison to this thread since the NWN longbow shoots in a direct line, rather then using a rain of arrow method.

1200 Crossbowmen were given to Owain Glyndwr in the early 1400s and were used once or twice in the Marches against the Saesons (English). There were several other instances in the middle ages too but this was the main one where French Soldiers were part of the War of Welsh Independence on the side of the Welsh. They successfully raided England on several occassions during this period but most of it was spent twiddling thumbs guarding garrisons in Wales for Prince Owain.

Incorrect. Terrain, height and range, plus weather conditions, are what helped win the battle. Without the longbow with it's range, the french would have simply marched bombard cannons into range and blasted the english as they came into close range combat/crossbow. Without the english's mastery of the longbow, the tactics used at Againcourt would never have even been developed, yet alone put into play.

Thus, Longbow = win. Which is moot point in comparison to this thread since the NWN longbow shoots in a direct line, rather then using a rain of arrow method.

I started a reply to this a couple of hours ago but it ran waaaay too long, so this is the short version.

While you are correct that the rain muddied the freshly ploughed fields between two heavily wooded areas and that this was one of the decisive factors in the battle, the rest of your post is wrong.

D'Albret deployed his crossbows and bombards behind his mounted and foot units. Despite this, they are reputed to have got off one or two volleys early in the battle which may imply that they may have been at the extreme of their range from the English. The only part they really played in the battle was to help spook Henry into slaughtering his prisoners when he saw them at the end of the battle.

The first move the d'Albret made, after Henry ordered his longbows to fire, was to order a cavalry charge. Many of the cavalry, after several hours of waiting for the battle to start, had by this point dismounted and were walking around the French position, feeding the horses and getting something to eat for themselves. The cavalry charge was thus not at full strength. This is the only point in the battle where the longbow made a difference both tactically (the longbowmen had planted stakes in front of their positions, an innovation at the time) because the French horse were not capable of wearing the heavy armour of their riders. While English arrows bounced off the armour of their riders, they easily wounded the horses themselves causing many of them to flee in panic. Those that did not flee due to injury refused to advance once they saw the stakes.

While his cavalry started their attack d'Albret ordered his men-at-arms to advance across the muddy field that had just been further churned up by horses. As they advanced, the woods on either side forced them into tighter and tighter formations which the panicking horses galloped through, knocking many men into the knee-deep mud. The longbows at this point were only effective insofar as they were capable of penetrating parts of the French armour, such as joints and face guards, and because the French were so tightly packed together the English were guaranteed to hit (though the majority of the arrows just bounced off).

The exhausted French managed to force the English back a few metres at initial contact, but it was only a small loss of ground that was regained. By this time, however, they were too tired, from wading through the mud, and too tightly packed together to effectively wield their weapons (one source says they couldn't even raise, let alone swing, them). To make matters worse, d'Albret had arranged his men in three lines that all advanced at more or less the same time. Because of this there was no escape for anyone in the front.

Soon after the two armies came into contact the longbowmen dropped their bows and joined in the melee. The lightly armoured longbowmen had a strong advantage over the heavily armoured men-at-arms because unlike the French, they didn't sink up to their knees in the mud, and, of course, they had not been marching in heavy armour through it all and were thus relatively fresh. The slaughter of French did come, in part, from longbowmen, but not from their longbows - they were cut down in melee.

The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!

Jehan de Wavrin was the son of a Flemish knight. His father and older brother fought with the French at the battle. Both were killed. The young de Wavrin observed the battle from the French lines and we join his account as the two armies prepare for combat:


"When the battalions of the French were thus formed, it was grand to see them; and as far as one could judge by the eye, they were in number fully six times as many as the English. And when this was done the French sat down by companies around their banners, waiting the approach of the English, and making their peace with one another; and then were laid aside many old aversions conceived long ago; some kissed and embraced each other, which it was affecting to witness; so that all quarrels and discords which they had had in time past were changed to great and perfect love. And there were some who breakfasted on what they had. And these Frenchmen remained thus till nine or ten o'clock in the morning, feeling quite assured that, considering their great force, the English could not escape them; however, there were at least some of the wisest who greatly feared a fight with them in open battle.

...The French had arranged their battalions between two small thickets, one lying close to Agincourt, and the other to Tramecourt. The place was narrow, and very advantageous for the English, and, on the contrary, very ruinous for the French, for the said French had been all night on horseback, and it rained, and the pages, grooms, and others, in leading about the horses, had broken up the ground, which was so soft that the horses could with difficulty step out of the soil. And also the said French were so loaded with armour that they could not support themselves or move forward. In the first place they were armed with long coats of steel, reaching to the knees or lower, and very heavy, over the leg harness, and besides plate armour also most of them had hooded helmets; wherefore this weight of armour, with the softness of the wet ground, as has been said, kept them as if immovable, so that they could raise their dubs only with great difficulty, and with all these mischiefs there was this, that most of them were troubled with hunger and want of sleep.

...Now let us return to the English. After the parley between the two armies was finished and the delegates had returned, each to their own people, the King of England, who had appointed a knight called Sir Thomas Erpingham to place his archers in front in two wings, trusted entirely to him, and Sir Thomas, to do his part, exhorted every one to do well in the name of the King, begging them to fight vigorously against the French in order to secure and save their own lives. And thus the knight, who rode with two others only in front of the battalion, seeing that the hour was come, for all things were well arranged, threw up a baton which he held in his hand, saying 'Nestrocq' ['Now strike'] which was the signal for attack; then dismounted and joined the King, who was also on foot in the midst of his men, with his banner before him.

A contemporary depiction of the battle
Agincourt stands in the background.
Then the English, seeing this signal, began suddenly to march, uttering a very loud cry, which greatly surprised the French. And when the English saw that the French did not approach them, they marched dashingly towards them in very fine order, and again raised a loud cry as they stopped to take breath.

Then the English archers, who, as I have said, were in the wings, saw that they were near enough, and began to send their arrows on the French with great vigour.

Then the French seeing the English come towards them in this manner, placed themselves together in order, everyone under his banner, their helmets on their heads. The Constable, the Marshal, the admirals, and the other princes earnestly exhorted their men to fight the English well and bravely; and when it came to the approach the trumpets and clarions resounded everywhere; but the French began to hold down their heads, especially those who had no bucklers, for the impetuosity of the English arrows, which fell so heavily that no one durst uncover or look up.

Thus they went forward a little, then made a little retreat, but before they could come to close quarters, many of the French were disabled and wounded by the arrows; and when they came quite up to the English, they were, as has been said, so closely pressed one against another that none of them could lift their arms to strike their enemies, except some that were in front...

[The French knights] struck into these English archers, who had their stakes fixed in front of them... their. horses stumbled among the stakes, and they were speedily slain by the archers, which was a great pity. And most of the rest, through fear, gave way and fell back into their vanguard, to whom they were a great hindrance; and they opened their ranks in several places, and made them fall back and lose their footing in some land newly sown; for their horses had been so wounded by the arrows that the men could no longer manage them.

[The French] men-at-arms without number began to fall; and their horses feeling the arrows coming upon them took to flight before the enemy, and following their example many of the French turned and fled. Soon afterwards the English archers, seeing the vanguard thus shaken, issued from behind their stockade, threw away their bows and quivers, then took their swords, hatchets, mallets, axes, falcon-beaks and other weapons, and, pushing into the places where they saw these breaches, struck down and killed these Frenchmen without mercy, and never ceased to kill till the said vanguard which had fought little or not at all was completely overwhelmed, and these went on striking right and left till they came upon the second battalion, which was behind the advance guard, and there the King personally threw himself into the fight with his men-at-arms.

As the English continued to gain the upper hand, King Henry received news that the French were attacking at the rear of his army and that French reinforcements were approaching. King Henry ordered that all French prisoners be put to the sword - an order his knights were reluctant to follow as, if kept alive, these prisoners could bring a healthy ransom:

"When the King of England perceived them coming thus he caused it to be published that every one that had a prisoner should immediately kill him, which those who had any were unwilling to do, for they expected to get great ransoms for them. But when the King was informed of this he appointed a gentleman with two hundred archers whom he commanded to go through the host and kill all the prisoners, whoever they might be. This esquire, without delay or objection, fulfilled the command of his sovereign lord, which was a most pitiable thing, for in cold blood all the nobility of France was beheaded and inhumanly cut to pieces, and all through this accursed company, a sorry set compared with the noble captive chivalry, who when they saw that the English were ready to receive them, all immediately turned and fled, each to save his own life. Many of the cavalry escaped; but of those on foot there were many among the dead."

=More interesting than why, exactly, a given battle was won or lost is why it was fought in the first place, what economic structures and cultural developements lead to a situation that facilitated such hostilities, and what the consequences where. Put things into perspective, damn you! :D

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I cant believe that Amia forums are a better source for history-lessons than my school is.

They just quote http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page