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A few questions.. hopefully none terribly difficult.

1)Use Magic Device - How is it determined how this works vs. an item? is there an actual roll of some kind .. or is there a chart that says "Rank 5 = anything under 1200GP.." or the like. If the latter, is there a link to this chart somewhere?

2)What is the state of Crafting on the server? I don't mean.. mythal crafting and adding properties to things.. but the actual X+Y=Gloves! A+B=half plate.. As well, what is the state of more obscure things like.. Alchemy? Plants, herbs, etc..

3)Does clockwork make an appearance anywhere in-game? or is it something of a peripheral concept that exists ambiguously and as a prop in scenery, but in no real player-usable way?

Last edited by xordae on Sun, Jan 11 2009, 5:17 AM, edited 1 time in total.

1) http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Use_magic_device

2) Plants make homebrewn stuff, if you know combinations (you also need to add a custom item for each type). Ores and pieces make items, though I never got into it.

3) Used to be a big plot about Clockwork. These days you don't see a lot of it.

brooksthegreat wrote:

A few questions.. hopefully none terribly difficult.

1)Use Magic Device - How is it determined how this works vs. an item? is there an actual roll of some kind .. or is there a chart that says "Rank 5 = anything under 1200GP.." or the like. If the latter, is there a link to this chart somewhere?

http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Use_Magic_Device

brooksthegreat wrote:

2)What is the state of Crafting on the server? I don't mean.. mythal crafting and adding properties to things.. but the actual X+Y=Gloves! A+B=half plate.. As well, what is the state of more obscure things like.. Alchemy? Plants, herbs, etc..

Herb crafting is in. Other than that and Mythal, there currently isn't all that much. Though things are in the woodwork, so to speak.

brooksthegreat wrote:

3)Does clockwork make an appearance anywhere in-game? or is it something of a peripheral concept that exists ambiguously and as a prop in scenery, but in no real player-usable way?

In game, to my knowledge, there's currently nothing. There's however nothing stopping a player from requesting something or submitting something.

Edit : DAMMIT!

Herb crafting? Interesting. Is there a ..guide ..or some such somewhere? or is it something I can only learn by having my character stumble upon it as a novice and taught in-game?

Same for ore, woodworking, whathaveyou

Ooh, Ooh! Let me be the first one to put my support for some clockworkery and tinkering on the server, if the people upstairs were thinking about adding something.

It will add a lot more flavor to our little nitch of Faerun. Instead of every answer to getting great gear being "Let's find a mage", someone might say "I need something to X. Maybe a smart little inventing gnome can help me."

Now, I still love having mages and mythals to craft all the purely magical aspects of armor, that's what they're there for after all. What I'm talking about is the physical aspect of things you can make. A grappling hook/hand (like in HotU), a golem(the absolute BEST you could make being like in HotU), a tangle gun (scripted effect for tangle that bypasses SR). You see where Im going with this, I hope.

Let me go ahead and say that -if- a golem system in enacted, they should be -separate- from summons. Yes, I said it. From a purely technical standpoint, yeah, you can represent that from a summoning standpoint, but rply, I find it makes little since why you couldnt have a golem and a summon out at the same time. One is magical, the other is phsycial. All that needs to be done to make golem crafting worthwhile, yet not over the top is:

1) Require time to make/craft/find parts.'
2) Are spawned like the Skeleton soldiers from WCoC, that is, not in party, but follow and defend "crafter" off of script.
3) Golems are non-healable, through kits or spells. (maybe a script when crafter talks to creature in nonhostile, regen starts, as they are "fixing" it, piece by piece.)
4) Once golem is destroyed, they're destroyed. Have to be remade over.

Those are just my ideas on how it could be implimented, but I really would like to see some "clockwork" implimented.

Quote:

It will add a lot more flavor to our little nitch of Faerun. Instead of every answer to getting great gear being "Let's find a mage", someone might say "I need something to X. Maybe a smart little inventing gnome can help me."

As a soon to be gnomish inventor, I whole-heartedly agree without any bias or thoughts to cornering the market whatsoever.

Also: The clockwork crafting suggestions..are an incredibly nifty lot. Particularly the golems..

I'd like very much to do something like that or see something like that. I also happen to be a big clockwork fan in general, not just as an NWN idea.. if anyone should ever need input or ideas *coughcough*

Just saying.

Define "Clockwork". "Clockwork" is often translated directly into "Steampunk", which you will not find on the server.

If by clockwork, you mean "Golem", then yes, you'll find plenty.

Reminds me of the gnome who offered one of my chars mechanical wings, among other things.

She asked for a massage rod instead though, the RP was hilarious. ^^

brooksthegreat wrote:

Herb crafting? Interesting. Is there a ..guide ..or some such somewhere? or is it something I can only learn by having my character stumble upon it as a novice and taught in-game?

Same for ore, woodworking, whathaveyou

You really need to be taught by another PC.

TormakSaber wrote:

Define "Clockwork". "Clockwork" is often translated directly into "Steampunk", which you will not find on the server.

If by clockwork, you mean "Golem", then yes, you'll find plenty.

To me, "clockwork" represents the -limited- physical technology of the FR setting. Yes, magic is to be the main staple of the day-n-age, and that's what I appreciate about FR, but unfortunately, NWN neglects to show anything along the lines of "clockwork".

Clockwork: Gears, sprockets, pulleys, copper wires, explosives, golems, cannons, Lantan's "smoke powder", wind-up technology, the sword from DMC 4 *cough* :roll:

Steampunk: Steampower, blimps, air-machines/contraptions, early vehicles, Victorian era crud, H. G. Well's Time Machine, etc, etc.

That's what I pretty much see as the difference, and I'd definently not like to see too much of "Steampunk" come into our dear little Amia.

*Bumps into Steamboy creator*
"Hey, you got D&D in my steampunk!"
"Hey!, you got steampunk in my....damn....I don't even care any more" *goes home sobbing*

Anyway, if we do bring some clockwork into our midst, I think I might have an idea on how things could be crafted with it. Make a set group of "unique powers". Instead of going to a mythal forge, tinkering would use a, well, tinker's table? Have it use "Craft Trap" which can be interprited as "craft clockwork", as in both cases, you're making springs etc from natural materials such as wood and ores. Bring up a list of "gadgets" that can added to whatever is to be tinkered, all with different difficulties, components, and gp cost. Maybe have a diferent "slot" system for them like, armors have 2 "gadget slots" while all other equipables have 1. Maybe also be able to craft misc. items that hold 1 slot as well.

Gadets might include:

A graplling hook or winch to lift you up somewhere 1xday
A tangle-rope gun, which would by SR to rep the physicality of such an entanglement (but still beaten by freedom)
And... well, let's face it, I'm not as good as thinking these up as the frantic minds that play gnome characters

But that's what I get out of the idea.

Clockwork: It's what's for dinner. I also add that I see clockwork gadets being much more benign than mythal powers. Not everyone is looking for "something to slice giants up better" or something that "gives the power to rain down sundering death upon my enemies". Just rp things like getting a cat out of a tree, or what have you. *shrug*

Err... I was under the impression that golems were magical constructs... the only crafting involved is building a statue like body that was them animated via magic.

After all, I don't think Stone or Flesh golems are run by gears and such...

You forgot Iron, which you could easily theoretically make a body of moving gears which is then animated.

Rule of Thumb - If it requires combustion, electricity, or similar sciences, it's a no go.

Use Magic as the fuel/catalyst, but the rest done by its own motion. Much like Iron/Steel/Mithral golems and Shield Guardians. Gears and cogs, but at the very center it's controlled by magic and nothing else.

WonWon wrote:

Rule of Thumb - If it requires combustion, electricity, or similar sciences, it's a no go.

Use Magic as the fuel/catalyst, but the rest done by its own motion. Much like Iron/Steel/Mithral golems and Shield Guardians. Gears and cogs, but at the very center it's controlled by magic and nothing else.

While when one thinks "steampunk" it is obviously a reference to steam, a lot of Clockwork contraptions tend to work simply on the interaction between gears and springs, usually requiring a winding device or other similar non "powered" force.. Which is more what I had in mind from the outset..rather than having a gnome with Staff of Tesla Coil, or a steam-powered something or other. While these things might be interesting, they aren't necessarily true to flavor. On the other hand..

Quote:

Equipped by nature with keen curiosity and a knack for mechanical workings, gnomes excel at intricate crafts such as gemcutting, toymaking, and clockwork engineering. They happen to be the finest gunsmiths in Faerun, and they are the most likely of any race to arm themselves with smokepowder firearms.

That's from the Campaign Setting entry on Rock Gnomes.. so .. we have direct evidence of Clockwork Engineering existing..

Quote:

Lantan
Folk hear tales of Lantan, “where Gond is worshiped and magic shunned.” Most know very little more beyond the hearsay that Lantan is a strange and dangerous place where clockwork machines and infernal devices work great wonders and terrors at their makers’ direction. Common wizardry pales in comparison.

The humans and gnomes of the island of Lantan pioneer technological solutions to problems that citizens of Faerûn solve with magic. The faith of Gond rules the pleasant island realm, and its inhabitants farm, craft things, and experiment endlessly. The Lantanese inventors constantly create new “small wonders” for the greater glory of Gond, and sometimes sell or trade these devices for glass, charcoal, and other odd ingredients their clients require. Some Lantanese devices popular on mainland Faerûn include wagon suspensions and repairable sectioned wagon wheels; self-filling oil lamps that never go out as long as an oil tank is kept filled; various light-beam and tripwire intruder alarms; intricate hinges, chains, clockwork time-release devices, hasps, locks, and castings with special features (such as “stabbing pins” that can be poisoned to deter thieves, key-hiding cavities, catches that can ring chimes to announce the opening of a portal, and so on). The Lantanese have also created wind-driven fans, “snap-together” weapons, grapnels that can be disassembled and concealed in clothing, and a variety of intricate needles and tools for sewing and surgical uses.

And that entry seems to imply that there exists a lot more clockwork in the FR setting than just another way to make golems. I'm not advocating a sudden steampunk take-over.. but it does exist in the realms.

Food for thought.

You could always have magic making one cog spin, powered by a mythal ... it's still clokwork without electricity or anything like that.

Clockwork is basically momentum, motion, pressure and friction last I checked. All pretty solid in FR. So yeah, clockwork in that regard would be fine.

Do we have more accurate clocks than the water clocks (as described in the PHB)? Other than those in gigantic clock towers.

I beleive we do.

I remember seeing somewhere that a common oath among people is "By the Clocks of Neverwinter", because they are known to keep time so well.

We actually have a "pocket-watch" ingame, but I think that's more or less a magical item.

And I thought of some more applications of clockwork in terms of game items.

Bolo-cannon/rifle: Scripted KD bolt with set dc and range touch. 1d4 round duration.

Chain-blade sword: A regular greatsword with a bladed chain running along the edge and connecting into a motor-like contraption in the hilt. Upon use of its "trigger", it gains 1d4 slashing damage, sonic vfx (to rep the teeth spinning), and consumes 1 achemist's fire. Duration a few rounds. Better versions of the sword could come later, with more slashing damage, but more achemist fire consumption. And yes, thinking about the DMC4 sword, heh.

Blast-rifle: Modded crossbow, no damage, unique ability= consumes 1 tunderstone, ranged touch attack, on success, does Sount Burst on target. As a unique ability, only usuable 1xround, of course, or longer, to represent "loading" time.

Just some more thoughts.

Chain swords are a bad idea IMO - they break with ridiculous ease upon hitting armour or another blade, and wit a motor is too much like an internal combustion engine, and t quote WonWon "Rule of Thumb - If it requires combustion, electricity, or similar sciences, it's a no go. "

Yurell wrote:

Chain swords are a bad idea IMO - they break with ridiculous ease upon hitting armour or another blade, and wit a motor is too much like an internal combustion engine, and t quote WonWon "Rule of Thumb - If it requires combustion, electricity, or similar sciences, it's a no go. "

And golems made out of glass make sense....how? If your answer is "magicaly enchanted/treated" then so is the chain-blade. Point moot.

Anyway, it would be a -magical- engine. It runs off of an alchemical substance, so it may or may not use -any- combustion at all. Think outside the box. Just because you have clockwork going on wouldn't mean you wouldnt have any magic involved either. I was always taught engineering involved synergizing, that is, taking and using bits and pieces of other methods and materials to get your goal reached, not just one or another.

Please keep your reinassance era weapons out of my Forgotten Realms, thankyou. Cannons and similar I don't believe are currently in FR - Gond hasn't granted access to the safe use of that science yet.'Gunpowder Tech' is unreliable and heavily dangerous. I couldbe wrong, but I haven't seen any source that has gunpowder related technology. ICly it may just be a case that Gond hasn't permitted them to work out how to use saltpeter properly to form it in a stable manner.

That said, the Clocks of Waterdeep is indeed your big-arse weight transfer system clocktower - think Big Ben as opposed to what you hang on your wall.

Would it be possible to summon Modron's from the Plane of Mechanus? Say as a possible skin for a summons or something? Just a random idea i thought would be fun to include in the discussion...

As I remember, seige-cannons, catapults, battering rams, and the revealtion of "smoke powder" by Gond are all part of this time period in Faerun. Admitted, it isn't spread all the way across Toril, thank the gods, but I see nothing that would say traveling tinkerers from Lantan couldnt visit a place and share some of their technology with whomever might be willing to buy it. Especially when a good portion of the inhabitants are bored epics who have a lotta gold, and will most likely flock to a caravan of such wares.

No one's saying that bringing some gear-tech to Amia should change the whole face of it, heaven's no. But having a little mechanical gadget or trinket here and there never catapulted a server into complete discord as far as I can remember.

ron, just as a question. about science in the FR, would it be possible to come up with inventions that the ancient greek and roman scientists did? ie, Archimedes, heron of Alexandria, and all the rest of the scientists? what of the Muslim scientist during the golden age of Islam?

Catapults are a weight driven weapon, so sort of irrelevant to mention. Battering rams are, likewise, largely a non-mechanical device. Man-carried ones are just long shafts of wood carried by a group of men. Housed ones (the more common for actual seige work) are nothing more than a large shaft of wood (or somethimes steel or iron) suspended with rope to allow it the freedom to move forward and back.

Smokepowder (such as smokesticks) is rather common, but they have a very slow burning rate (hence, smokepowder and not explosive powder) and burn off more material than they do energy.

Never ever seen mention of seige cannons in FR, excluding (gag) 4E which isn't Amia. Explosives in general are a rarity and are very volatile - hardly appropriate for safe usage.

One major point about technology is that it is typically made to fill a need. The Light Bulb was made to create light where Candles were ineffective. The Gun was made to combat the weakness of other ranged weaponry, etc. Antibiotics was made as a means of healing the human body or aiding in the body healing itself.

All of these needs are basically covered by 'magic' already. There's little (as opposed to no) reason for technology. Why would you make a chain sword (That presumably requires magic to operate) when you've got enchanted swords already? What would prompt the creation of a Rifle when you've got wands of Magic Missile (which are far safer and have 100% accuracy) at your disposal?

See the idea?

Not to mention, a Chain Sword reminds me of Gears of War, which makes me cringe horrifically. Chainsaws, basically.

Gnomes are notorious for creating "Rube Goldberg" machines where a simple answer could be found. I thought that was a given.

It's creating for creations sake. If you want to argue "Why bother" if we already have magic, then I suppose no one needs candles, farms for food, water wells or flint & tinder. All are covered by Magic, technically, by such things as Light/Continual light, Hero's Feast, Creat Water and any fire PnP spell, respectively.

But what's that you say? Such magics are inaccesable to the large population of Faerun? Exactly. Which is exactly why clockwork is a viable alternative to some things. And maybe tinkering isn't super-accessable either, but I'd say it's bound to show up in places where people lack the skill of the Weave, but still have the need for light, irrigation, etc.

Not every(read: shy of one) D&D city is gonna have 50 lv 30 mages in it like Cordor. So naturally, they need tangeble things, like sprockets and gears and what have you that more common folk can work with. It doesn't take that much for a gnome or tinkerer to set up a shop some where and use wooden and metal cogs to make little trinkets and what have you for the masses. In fact, it's a lot more efficient than having a mage who people come to to fix their problems. Last I checked, I thought Mystrans were all about "not using the Weave needlessly". Just got to that crazed lil crafter and see what he has to sell you.

I'd like to point out that "clockwork" would be an accessable alternative in Faerun to people who have the know-how and the time for craftmanship. Note, that it's not completely overlaping of magic, and there are -thousands- of things that magic does that will nevah evah evah be replicated by what little technology exists in the realms.

So while, yes, the needs are "covered", it's not in every nook and cranny of the world, just waiting for a wave of the hand. Well, not since the days of Netheril....*shudder*. Hence, more mundane ways of getting things done are bound to happen.

D'awww, touches of sarcasm and defensiveness.

I love it!

To be on topic - Most cities don't, no, but by the same token most get by perfectly fine without them. Yes, contraptions do exist. But they're not going to be nearly as advanced. The Clock isn't even a widespread invention as yet (as shown by it only really existing in Waterdeep).

There is, however, a fundamental difference between discovering the safe and viable amounts of saltpeter used to form stable gunpowder, in addition to how to acqurie it, where to acquire it, and how to appropriately treat it for safety... And working out how weight, motion, and speed are mathematically formulated and represented into working sciences.

Faerûn, really, has only just worked out the latter thoroughly. They know how to use gears to manipulate speed and motion, they know how to use cogs and wheels to translate and manage weight and force. Circular momentum, space, inertia - all pretty thorough knowledge (and considered relatively simple to today's age).

Electricity, Gunpowder, etcetera. These things are known (It's common knowledge of what electricity is and does. Same as how there are chemials and substances that do 'blow up' or ignite.) but not necessarily understood.

It's really a case of fully understanding, technologically, where Faerûn currently is. Lantan knows clockwork down pat - the rest of Faerûn probably doesn't. Lantan is advanced, very much so, but it's not so far ahead that Gunpowder, Electricity, Advanced Chemistry (the understanding of fundamental elements, etc), Biology, and Molecules are understood. In some cases they're probably dismissed outright.

A good example is indeed the Gnomish Testing Grounds over in Forrstakrr. Have a look - they don't know what they're doing, despite trying to learn it and understand it. It's still at a point, where things are absolutely chaotic and by all rights they're still "Experimenting" and haven't quite worked things out to any stable, usable level.

Hell, you can go to Eberron (which is more advanced than Faerûn and Lantan) - They still haven't got gunpowder, and Electricity is nothing more than binding and slaving an Elemental to their will as opposed to utilizing it as an actual science. They don't even know of Bacteria or Molecules yet, and Eberron's as steam-punk as you can get without actually hitting that (painful) title.

Clockwork, by all rights, is still pretty much a quiet and 'new' technology. It's not wide-spread, and most commoners aren't going to have access to it (especially if you consider, if you want to go by raw Faerûn here, how much they have in the way of money. Hint - it's less than 1GP). Most people get by the same way people did before Clocks. Hard work, heavy labour, and duties from dawn to dusk.

Guns, Chainsaws, and Steam Engines? No. Clocks and weight-operated devices? More than capable.

ron, just as a question. about science in the FR, would it be possible to come up with inventions that the ancient greek and roman scientists did? ie, Archimedes, heron of Alexandria, and all the rest of the scientists? what of the Muslim scientist during the golden age of Islam?

Such as what? The names don't ring a bell, unfortunately, and all 'Rome' brings to mind is the aqueduct and perhaps the most brilliant form of fighting loins ever invented (SPARTA!)

I... don't remember saying anything about molecules... or understanding the elements... or even bacteria for that matter. And yes, sarcasm comes free with the DI Combo.

I -did- talk about gears.

Is it -really- that technologically advanced for a guy to cut a gear out of wood or cast it out of iron and put them together? We have draw bridges, chain-drawn gates, spike traps, wall spikes, trap doors, and guillotine pendulums...in the forms of traps and other things.

Doesn't seem like that much of a stretch to me to have have a couple of hombrewn things in the way of gadgetry.

And the chain-sword was a figment of my overactive, violent imagination. No, such things should not be mass produced, for then it -does- become too widespread for the time, but here and there like in dm plots and story arcs, I see no utter upheaval of Faerun oncoming.

I like the idea of clockwork, and advanced weight/pendulum driven devices, including some of the intricate stuff developed by the Romans and the Medieval Muslims, although I a really not fond of steampunk at all, nor the use of blackpowder except as something used as an unstable concoction by a less-than-sane person trying to achieve something more portable than a wizard.

herkles wrote:

ron, just as a question. about science in the FR, would it be possible to come up with inventions that the ancient greek and roman scientists did? ie, Archimedes, heron of Alexandria, and all the rest of the scientists? what of the Muslim scientist during the golden age of Islam?

Most of their inventions are already used in FR, or have things that use very similar things, or are not much of a stretch. It's very easy to overlook the use of these inventions in the modern era because they're used, in one form or another, nearly everywhere.

Similarly, there are many inventions from the Islamic Golden Age that are already in use in PnP. The rudimentary chemistry developed by the Muslims would be used very often in alchemy in FR. I'm not even going to attempt to cover everything important, but suffice to say that most of it has already been invented in FR.

There seems to be a lot of debating along the lines of "yeah, but I hate steampunk" and while that's fine, Clockwork and Steampunk are really two different things. Steampunk is a whole genre all by itself, complete with advanced-if-backward technologies, Victorian Trash, zepplins, bowler hats, brass, blah blah. If you aren't into the genre, the more subtle aspects might escape you...

Clockwork, on the other hand, is simply a (partially) fictional technology that while present in Steampunk (Although without the Steam, it's not really the same sort of beast) is not itself steampunk. More importantly, whether you like steampunk or not is irrelevant, clockwork is in the setting.. we might as well bemoan the existence of dragons or the gnomes themselves.

That said, I think Dark Immolation hit the nail on the head when he compared the gnome inventions to Rube Goldberg devices. It isn't about convenience or necessarily even need or efficiency - even while Gnomes lead some of the most "modern" lives in terms of their homes (an example is given in Races of Stone about their iceboxes..) When a Gnome has a passion for advention, it is an extention of the same creativity they pursue everything else with. The ideal solution is not the simplest, but the most inventive way to solve a problem. Sure, one could have a "Wand of fireball" .. but for a gnome it is even more rewarding when they spent time tinkering in their lab developing a spring-loaded alchemist's fire hand-held catapult, or the like.

Certain things are definitely too odd for the setting - not in the way that they are actually too odd, but they are obviously a modern reference rather than a produce of gnomish creativity. The chain-sword above is an example (Sorry DI.) But you can bet good money that if normal, simple clockwork exists here and there.. then gnomish inventors will have upscaled and over-complicated it as well. Are these things mass-produced? Of course not.. Are they common? Only about as common as the individual gnome who created it (mass production wouldn't appeal to them.. and they don't invent to sell things) Is the technology perfected? Of Course Not! that's half the fun!

Personally, I wouldn't mind carrying around devices with serious flaws.. because that's the nature of the beast. Gnomish weapons can be terrifying, not least because they are as likely to harm the wielder as the enemy.. More than a few leading-edge gnome scientists have met their ends in pursuit of their craft.

More importantly though, the majority of possible Gnome tinkerings aren't weapons, nor are they super-powered whatsits of protection, etc etc. They are like the gnomes themselves - generally useful niche gadgets even if they seem a bit unstable.

I would also like to take a moment and point out that.. not all gnomes are the Inventor Archetype. While they all share a sort of exuberant dare I say "Renaissance man" approach to life, where they devote their time varies. Some make fine wizards (though I seem to get the impression they don't necessarily study magic for magic's sake) others spend their time as poets, philosophers, and all manner of pursuits.

Food for thought.

Danke.

brooks, there is a gnomish inventor Prestige class in Magic of Fearun called gnome Artificer. and I do agree with their devices being more of gadgets then weapons. Gnomes make me think of obsessive people, with a crazy focus on an idea they might have.

Rather than obsessive about goals they might have, (rock) gnomes dabble in various trades before picking one that suits them best. For them, the pleasure is in the process of unraveling the secrets of the world, not so much the result. That is, according to 3e Races of Faerûn. I don't know if gnomes in earlier editions were closer to Dragonlance's stressed inventors with some calling or project they've devoted their life to.

IronAngel wrote:

Rather than obsessive about goals they might have, (rock) gnomes dabble in various trades before picking one that suits them best. For them, the pleasure is in the process of unraveling the secrets of the world, not so much the result. That is, according to 3e Races of Faerûn. I don't know if gnomes in earlier editions were closer to Dragonlance's stressed inventors with some calling or project they've devoted their life to.

that's one of the things I was trying to hit on with the last paragraph. I had no intention of painting them specifically into the inventor corner, but the discussion of the nature of the gnome invention doesn't really leave room for ever facet of their lives. gnomes do pursue many trades, but invention is one of them and thus is what is addressed.

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