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xordae
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 Posted: Sat, Jan 03 2009, 20:05 PM |
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Player
Joined: 01 Jul 2005
Location: Germany
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The problem is that skills can be taken to a silly level. There's a broad range and a high peak. How can it be given importance in social situations if the playing field is wide open?
People will RP to their heart's content. They will be charming, persuading and intimidating with or without any skillpoints respectively. They will continue to do it. Women will continue to be busty and gorgeous even with a measly 8 Charisma.
If skills were more strictly handled by NWN then I would be all for using them in RP. If you really had to choose how good a character is with his senses, his personality and his learned skills and knowledge... and there was no cheesing it. But you have +Skills on items, and you have a generous +Skills by Ability mod, and that trashes the whole competitive idea.
I tend to agree with folks who say that skills shouldn't have importance. Just what are you gonna do if a guy rolls a Listen check of 100 when you tell a lie and he demands that he now knows your true intentions? There is no clear ruling and it causes frequent OOC.
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Sat, Jan 03 2009, 21:20 PM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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The easier solution is to not say if you're lying or not, and in the reverse, "Just do as they ask."
If you're lying, don't volunteer a bluff. Just lie. Don't say OOCly if you're lying and offer them a roll. Just lie. The roleplay will decide whether or not the character believes you. If you feel you must leave a "Tell", such as an eye twitch or fidgeting, do so, but understand 99% of people will actively percieve this. In this case I could understand the *possible* use of a spot roll, if the fidgeting is particularly minor or some such, but I don't recommend it.
If someone asks for a bluff, don't say anything. Just roll it. They were already pre-disposed to disbelieve you OOCly because they wanted a bluff in the first place, and no roll or OOC explanation of yours was going to convince him otherwise. It's fruitless to say "I was telling the truth, I don't need a bluff" or whatever, because then you're breaking character and influencing the roleplay with information that the other character doesn't rightfully know. What is a bluff roll, and why does telling the truth not requiring it automatically lead the other character to conclude what you say is true?
I stand against use of spot and listen to detect lies because I stand against the use of these skills inter-PC in the first place.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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NeverEverLand
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Posted: Tue, Jan 06 2009, 11:45 AM |
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Player
Joined: 05 Feb 2007
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Heh. Once again a topic such as this.
So basically, as I've read, the DM team is implying one should not bother wasting points in Persuade/Bluff/Intimidate.
The question however... what if the whole INTENTION of making a character, is to NOT make him a powerbuild who is going to bash everyone down in 2 seconds without a loss of single HP, but instead, a character who only survives and 'fights' with his ability to Bluff, Persuade, Weasel out with mere words, being a total wuss and a weaksauce when it comes to fighting?
What if one wants to make a character who's simply not a fighter but a diplomat?
Does that mean the person is doomed for failure pre-hand, because in the powerbuild world, a Half-Orc Fighter/WM with 13 Int and 8 Wis will simply not give a damn about the flowerish words of a person whose words can move mountains and simply bash him down 'to win' ?
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Nekhy
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Posted: Tue, Jan 06 2009, 12:09 PM |
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Player
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Oh, you shouldn't think of those points as wasting, because they can be very useful against NPCs and many DMs use rolls in quests. PCs with points in social skills may have an advantage over those who don't have points in social skills in such situations.
In my events, I love having PCs with skill points invested in a couple of non-combat skills, and will give them an advantage when solving issues etc. And I use a lot of skill checks, personally.
Of course, they aren't that useful when used against PCs, because rolling in PC-PC RP isn't mandatory. I guess it's a matter of taste where to invest your points: you shouldn't expect them to have but minor effect in PC-PC RP, but they may have a significant role in PC-NPC RP.
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FA_Frey_XC
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Posted: Tue, Jan 06 2009, 12:17 PM |
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Player
Joined: 18 May 2005
Location: XC HQ Alpha, Sol System, Sirius Sector.
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Nekhy wrote: Oh, you shouldn't think of those points as wasting, because they can be very useful against NPCs and many DMs use rolls in quests. PCs with points in social skills may have an advantage over those who don't have points in social skills in such situations.
In my events, I love having PCs with skill points invested in a couple of non-combat skills, and will give them an advantage when solving issues etc. And I use a lot of skill checks, personally.
Of course, they aren't that useful when used against PCs, because rolling in PC-PC RP isn't mandatory. I guess it's a matter of taste where to invest your points: you shouldn't expect them to have but minor effect in PC-PC RP, but they may have a significant role in PC-NPC RP.
This.
Perfect DM response. Gives a reason why to put points into the skills in a manner that legitamizes them yet still repeats the "social skills were made for PC / NPC interaction".
Well done, Mother Goose, well done.
Regards, _________________ 
"Come under the flag of truce, and brook no treason... for mineself is Death, and care not whom knows mine touch."
- Frey Asaid'De Majere
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NeverEverLand
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Posted: Tue, Jan 06 2009, 12:19 PM |
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Player
Joined: 05 Feb 2007
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My extremely long and flowerish essay/talk/explanation, followed by a Persuade roll exceeding the result of 110, was actually completely ignored by a DM-controlled-NPC at some point, which left me shocked for over 5 minutes due to the level of absurd of the 'event'.
And no, I don't expect them to have even minor influence on other PC's... as people simply ignore the fact that one's char may not be a powerbuild, and his strengths may lay somewhere else than in the ability of wielding a sword.
(Yes, I took Skill Focus: Bluff, Skill Focus: Persuade, Epic Skill Focus: Bluff and Epic Reputation as feats)
Still, I'm extremely happy whenever a PC actually decides to take this into account. It makes the world pink and, IMO, as it should be. Where not only the size of the sword matters, but also the wit and ability to burst a waterfall of Chanelle perfume smelling words.
I'd love to actually see the social skills taken more into consideration, but meh, it's just me 
EDIT: Mysimple point is/was, why would an AB check to hit someone would be more important than a Social check to Misguide someone or Persuade someone to do something you want him to do?
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BrainSplitter
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Posted: Tue, Jan 06 2009, 18:57 PM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Apr 2005
Location: Victoria, Australia
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I'll rarely take social skill rolls into direct account, whether DMside or PCside. I'll sooner utilize them as a means of bolstering an attempt by a PC/NPC.
But even if your Intimidate is +127, you're not going to talk down a Red Dragon unless you yourself are also a likewise massive, overbearing creature that it so to be feared.
Even if your Bluff is +127, you're not going to tell a guard that you didn't just murder someone despite them seeing you do it.
Even if your Persuade is +127, you're not going to persuade a powertripping Councilman to quit his job
You get the idea. It's largely about being reasonable in regards to what makes sense for that situation. There are some things which no matter what you say - won't have an effect.
If you want to invest in Social Skills (One of my own characters does, even), go for it, but expecting someone to reply to them how you want them to is not only pointless; but it's going to get you nowhere.
_________________
Mostly Retired
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Yossarin
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Posted: Tue, Jan 06 2009, 19:19 PM |
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Player
Joined: 23 Jan 2006
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NeverEverLand wrote: My extremely long and flowerish essay/talk/explanation, followed by a Persuade roll exceeding the result of 110, was actually completely ignored by a DM-controlled-NPC at some point, which left me shocked for over 5 minutes due to the level of absurd of the 'event'.
Were you asked to roll the check, or did you just roll it when you weren't asked?
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BlackDahlya
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Posted: Tue, Jan 06 2009, 22:47 PM |
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Player
Joined: 17 Aug 2005
Location: Land of the Scorching Sun, Empowered by Global Warming
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WonWon wrote: I'll rarely take social skill rolls into direct account, whether DMside or PCside. I'll sooner utilize them as a means of bolstering an attempt by a PC/NPC.
But even if your Intimidate is +127, you're not going to talk down a Red Dragon unless you yourself are also a likewise massive, overbearing creature that it so to be feared.
Even if your Bluff is +127, you're not going to tell a guard that you didn't just murder someone despite them seeing you do it.
Even if your Persuade is +127, you're not going to persuade a powertripping Councilman to quit his job
You get the idea. It's largely about being reasonable in regards to what makes sense for that situation. There are some things which no matter what you say - won't have an effect.
If you want to invest in Social Skills (One of my own characters does, even), go for it, but expecting someone to reply to them how you want them to is not only pointless; but it's going to get you nowhere.
This, along with what Nekhy said is how I see things too, but especially the underlined portion.
Me, for instance. I ~could~ (it would depend on how much effort you put into RPing pre dice roll, I never fall if there is no RP preceding the roll) go along with social rolls, but I would act according to my PC's personality, which will not necessarily mean it is the way you expect. Sometimes I would roll against, but just to help me get a "measure" of how emphatic or scared or anything my character would be.
Or else, if you (in general, not only NEL) wish them to act as you expect, roll and add an OOC message saying "Oh, you see, because of this roll, you have to do X, Y and Z because my PC is that mighty and has all these skillpoints", but then you would be dictating how others should roleplay and that is against server rules.
_________________
BlackDahlya
Once Upon A Time Played
Adr'ael Ken'rahel, Auron Teken’ath, Aurora Mesodias, 'Daniel' Daoskinaxarijikkym, Eilin'ira, Helena Rios, Layla Faircurrent, May'Une Do'Ndar, Mellinda Tellus, Michael of Cliffside, Rizzen of Twilight, Valkirya d'Claddath
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Cori
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Posted: Tue, Jan 06 2009, 23:10 PM |
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Player
Joined: 10 Aug 2005
Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
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I'd apply my own reluctance to respond to "roll play" over "role play", as a real-life example.
You can be a "skill-roll 100 persuade" salesperson, pitching that plasma tv to me.
My knowledge of plasma tv's vs. lcd tv's is going to overwhelm your persuade roll all on it's own. Also, no matter how good you might roll in "bluff", I know my facts, and if the facts you try to dish out to sell me on a plasma tv don't mesh with the facts I already know, your bluff roll will be a critical fail, and our conversation will be over regardless of how high your diplomacy and/or Charisma is.
Furthermore, I've been a salesperson for over a decade. I'll recognise your sales pitch for what it is, I might even respect it as having been well done. But I developed immunity to sales pitches through my own use of them. Much like developing immunity to a certain poison by administering small non-lethal doses to yourself over a long time. If I don't want something, you cannot convince me to change my mind. If I DO want something, you won't talk me out of it short of educating me with facts I was previously unaware of. And not always even then.
_________________ Role with the Punches...
Elan: A 10% chance is pretty unlikely, but everyone knows that a one-in-a-million chance is a sure thing!
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Yossarin
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Posted: Tue, Jan 06 2009, 23:35 PM |
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Player
Joined: 23 Jan 2006
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Cori wrote: Furthermore, I've been a salesperson for over a decade. I'll recognise your sales pitch for what it is, I might even respect it as having been well done. But I developed immunity to sales pitches through my own use of them. Much like developing immunity to a certain poison by administering small non-lethal doses to yourself over a long time. If I don't want something, you cannot convince me to change my mind. If I DO want something, you won't talk me out of it short of educating me with facts I was previously unaware of. And not always even then.
Hee hee. This is the very same logic I use when telling people to counter a Persuade roll with another Persuade roll.
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Uberuce
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Posted: Tue, Jan 06 2009, 23:58 PM |
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Player
Joined: 11 Nov 2005
Location: Near the bar.
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And for the third or maybe fourth time I repost my objection to social skill rolls:
"What's in that black box?"
"It's something incredibly persuasive. You remember that plan we talked about that you were unsure about? Well, because of the thing in this box you think it's a great idea."
"Urmm...okay. What is it?"
"I don't know. But it's amazing, trust me. It's totally changed your mind."
"How can it have changed my mind when I don't even know what it is? Even *you* don't know what it is!"
"Ahh...but look! It's got 54 written on the side of it."
"Fifty-four? What does that mean? It's got a nightclub from the early eighties in it?"
"No, silly! It's fiftyfours worth of persuasive."
"I think you were doing better with the nightclub."
"Anyway, you're convinced now, so let's go."
"I already told you: I don't have the right armour to go there yet. I'd be zapped by the paralysis spells in two minutes, I'm not going till I can afford the Freedom cloak. After I've got it we'll be fine."
"Hrmm....I'd believe you except you haven't got a box."
"What?"
"You need to show me your black box or else I don't believe you and then we have to go."
"You don't believe I'd die from paralysis?"
"Well, of course you will, it's utterly lethal! Even a child knows that....but I need to see your black box before I believe it"
"Fine, fine
..."*cobbles together a black box with a 37 on the side*
"Right, your box proved it, you'll survive, so saddle up and let's go!"
"No."
"You're a bad roleplayer."
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Kraniumbrud
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Posted: Wed, Jan 07 2009, 1:33 AM |
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Player
Joined: 08 Dec 2008
Location: Denmark
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Uberuce wrote: And for the third or maybe fourth time I repost my objection to social skill rolls:
"What's in that black box?"
"It's something incredibly persuasive. You remember that plan we talked about that you were unsure about? Well, because of the thing in this box you think it's a great idea."
"Urmm...okay. What is it?"
"I don't know. But it's amazing, trust me. It's totally changed your mind."
"How can it have changed my mind when I don't even know what it is? Even *you* don't know what it is!"
"Ahh...but look! It's got 54 written on the side of it."
"Fifty-four? What does that mean? It's got a nightclub from the early eighties in it?"
"No, silly! It's fiftyfours worth of persuasive."
"I think you were doing better with the nightclub."
"Anyway, you're convinced now, so let's go."
"I already told you: I don't have the right armour to go there yet. I'd be zapped by the paralysis spells in two minutes, I'm not going till I can afford the Freedom cloak. After I've got it we'll be fine."
"Hrmm....I'd believe you except you haven't got a box."
"What?"
"You need to show me your black box or else I don't believe you and then we have to go."
"You don't believe I'd die from paralysis?"
"Well, of course you will, it's utterly lethal! Even a child knows that....but I need to see your black box before I believe it"
"Fine, fine
..."*cobbles together a black box with a 37 on the side*
"Right, your box proved it, you'll survive, so saddle up and let's go!"
"No."
"You're a bad roleplayer."
you could do that with every skill in the game....not just social skills, the social skills are a expression of how powerfull a personality the person is...i think its fair to assume that if someone has chosen to use many skills in a social skill then they can be pretty persusive/scary/good at lying.
by any chance do you play a char with few skill points?
_________________
-Ja'acira Arrows'R'Us
-Balorin Wolfhammer- A dwarf so old he remember when the Beer stein was invented
Saisha Jai'diem Knight of bahamut, and abit of a looker
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Wed, Jan 07 2009, 1:47 AM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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Quote: by any chance do you play a char with few skill points?
Ah... ahahah... ahhahaha...
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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Gunz
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Posted: Wed, Jan 07 2009, 1:56 AM |
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Player
Joined: 01 Jul 2006
Location: The City of Fallen Angels, Ca
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Unreasonable rolls are a problem, I agree fully. Rolls are more of a thing you do when someone is actually on the fence about doing something. If someone seems scared, seems like they may want to do something but aren't sure, things like that. Of course you can't just roll a persuade and think you can make anyone do anything, that's beyond stupid. You can tell my druid up and down and roll a persuasive roll to have her let you run around with an undead in the forest but guess what? Not going to happen.
I definitely do see the points the DM's are making here and why they make the rolls optional. Too many people roll when its not appropriate at all and I've seen it first hand. I ignore those types of unreasonable, ridiculous, and, really, cop out type rolls. Making it so that everyone has to honor these rolls would open a HUGE can of worms, I can see it already. The way I use my social skills is with people who I know are great RPers and we both will use the skills in only reasonable situations.
As an example, and granted its a ridiculous one, you persuade someone to share an piece of apple they're not very attached to not to convince them to kill their dear and beloved mother.
_________________
My Characters:
Yuilith Kethil Menaiivan Garadeth
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BlackDahlya
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Posted: Wed, Jan 07 2009, 2:57 AM |
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Player
Joined: 17 Aug 2005
Location: Land of the Scorching Sun, Empowered by Global Warming
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o0GuNz_N_RoSeZ0o wrote: Unreasonable rolls are a problem, I agree fully. Rolls are more of a thing you do when someone is actually on the fence about doing something. If someone seems scared, seems like they may want to do something but aren't sure, things like that. Of course you can't just roll a persuade and think you can make anyone do anything, that's beyond stupid. You can tell my druid up and down and roll a persuasive roll to have her let you run around with an undead in the forest but guess what? Not going to happen.
I definitely do see the points the DM's are making here and why they make the rolls optional. Too many people roll when its not appropriate at all and I've seen it first hand. I ignore those types of unreasonable, ridiculous, and, really, cop out type rolls. Making it so that everyone has to honor these rolls would open a HUGE can of worms, I can see it already. The way I use my social skills is with people who I know are great RPers and we both will use the skills in only reasonable situations.
As an example, and granted its a ridiculous one, you persuade someone to share an piece of apple they're not very attached to not to convince them to kill their dear and beloved mother.
QFE. Underlined words, anyway.
But then, again, I am already repeating myself.
_________________
BlackDahlya
Once Upon A Time Played
Adr'ael Ken'rahel, Auron Teken’ath, Aurora Mesodias, 'Daniel' Daoskinaxarijikkym, Eilin'ira, Helena Rios, Layla Faircurrent, May'Une Do'Ndar, Mellinda Tellus, Michael of Cliffside, Rizzen of Twilight, Valkirya d'Claddath
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FA_Frey_XC
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Posted: Wed, Jan 07 2009, 13:16 PM |
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Player
Joined: 18 May 2005
Location: XC HQ Alpha, Sol System, Sirius Sector.
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TormakSaber wrote: Quote: by any chance do you play a char with few skill points? Ah... ahahah... ahhahaha... OMG, this gave me my leaving work after a hard night laugh I so desperately needed.
TY Tormak!
Regards, _________________
"Come under the flag of truce, and brook no treason... for mineself is Death, and care not whom knows mine touch."
- Frey Asaid'De Majere
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Kraniumbrud
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Posted: Wed, Jan 07 2009, 13:24 PM |
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Player
Joined: 08 Dec 2008
Location: Denmark
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FA_Frey_XC wrote: TormakSaber wrote: Quote: by any chance do you play a char with few skill points? Ah... ahahah... ahhahaha... OMG, this gave me my leaving work after a hard night laugh I so desperately needed. TY Tormak! Regards, hey that was my joke!
_________________
-Ja'acira Arrows'R'Us
-Balorin Wolfhammer- A dwarf so old he remember when the Beer stein was invented
Saisha Jai'diem Knight of bahamut, and abit of a looker
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Gunz
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Posted: Wed, Jan 07 2009, 14:07 PM |
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Player
Joined: 01 Jul 2006
Location: The City of Fallen Angels, Ca
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Kraniumbrud wrote:
hey that was my joke!
Quiet you! You unknowingly said something funny and you know it 
_________________
My Characters:
Yuilith Kethil Menaiivan Garadeth
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Dark
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Posted: Wed, Jan 07 2009, 14:17 PM |
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Player
Joined: 05 Jan 2006
Location: In a cave/IW Sydney. [+10 Gmt]
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I actually.. Don't like even rolling social skills. I dumped a heap in persuade, but I never use it. It actually makes me feel guilty. If I can't persuade you to stop the fight, why should I be able to do it any better by rolling a dice? Rolling it just makes me feel like I'm copping out because my excuse to make you do whatever isn't good enough. ><I>_>;.
That said, go ahead and roll, but even if I fail [Usually don't. Nyah.] I may not respond if I don't think my character would be intimidated by that at all. And even if I win against a big scary red dragon.. Lila's still going to pass out. Why? That's just how she is. If a dragon roars at her.. she'll be scared.
I don't mind rolling if asked too though! ^^;
_________________
[Out of Retirement.]
[Silent2001's First and Number one (and only?) Fan girl.]
Lila Espinan
An'ar Velu
Rena Espinan
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Yurell
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Posted: Wed, Jan 07 2009, 19:40 PM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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Personally, I like it when people roll skill (so long as it is supporting the pre-existing RP, since it means that the character was quite willing to sacrifice combat ability for the sake of said RP
_________________
2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
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Pony
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Posted: Wed, Jan 07 2009, 20:21 PM |
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Player
Joined: 07 May 2005
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Halen_Van
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Posted: Wed, Jan 07 2009, 20:32 PM |
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Joined: 21 Nov 2005
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DnD is honestly not know for it's amazing social rp system.
_________________ "Freedom is the Right of all sentient beings."
-Optimus Prime.
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Pony
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Posted: Wed, Jan 07 2009, 20:42 PM |
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Joined: 07 May 2005
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Halen_Van
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Posted: Wed, Jan 07 2009, 20:52 PM |
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Player
Joined: 21 Nov 2005
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So if you have str 40, shouldn't you be out bench-pressing cars?
_________________ "Freedom is the Right of all sentient beings."
-Optimus Prime.
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Yossarin
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Posted: Wed, Jan 07 2009, 21:09 PM |
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Player
Joined: 23 Jan 2006
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Ultimately, we're all going to have our individual opinions about social skill rolls, and all for varying reasons, too, from the purely self-serving to outright elitism.
I have invested skill points in social skills. I pull more Persuade than NEL does. You will never see me make a roll of it, though, for the following reasons:
- I consider it lame. Roast me if you will, I just do. I want my full immersion without numbers getting in the way.
- I prefer the challenge of trying to persuade/bluff/intimidate someone with my own ingenuity and talent at RP without ever using numbers. Call it elitism, but I hold myself to a higher standard.
- Making a social skill roll is a HUGE tell. Anytime someone throws a Persuade/Bluff/Intimidate, its like a big sign that says, "I am manipulating you." If my PC is the kind of person to manipulate other people, I would rather it happen, even without the player's direct knowledge. To be as subtle as possible. Its like Tormak said: if you're bluffing, don't roll bluff. I hold the same to be true for Persuade. If you're trying to convince someone of something, do your fucking homework on them and the subject, work out a winning pitch, make it work. And with Intimidate? Psh. You're trying to intimidate characters who don't even fear DEATH because it isn't permanent. Intimidate is a losing battle, unless you're facing off against a person like me who has no pride or face to lose in being afraid.
When I am in the DM Client, I look at your skills when you're talking to NPCs or facing other challenges. I see how many points you have invested in them. If you are talking to an NPC and trying to persuade him/her of something, sometimes you don't even have to make a roll. If I see something like 60 ranks in Persuade, with the vast majority of NPCs I'm going to consider it you being automatically persuasive without you having to roll. If you're the rogue with like 0 ranks in Persuade, I'll generally be unimpressed, if you're really trying to make it happen, force you to make a roll against a preset DC. If you're the barbarian with -2 in Persuade, but have 40 ranks in Intimidate, well, you may just inadvertently intimidate the person into having them do what you want...and possibly find a way to get back at you when they're not so shaken and cowed by your immediate presence.
That said, you are free to roll your skills all you like when I am in the DM Client, but its rarely necessary unless I directly ask you to do so because you wouldn't hit a DC otherwise and thus have a chance of failure.
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Yurell
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Posted: Wed, Jan 07 2009, 21:09 PM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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Halen_Van wrote: So if you have str 40, shouldn't you be out bench-pressing cars?
Cars'd be a waste when you can do 3 metric tonnes ... you can push 14.
_________________
2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
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Kraniumbrud
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Posted: Wed, Jan 07 2009, 21:13 PM |
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Player
Joined: 08 Dec 2008
Location: Denmark
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i think people forget one thing in all of this...modifiers...
theres a ton of things that can modify social skills..
like
"im the god tempus here to cleanse your world of people who only live for war" -said the small cuddly bunny
now that bluff check would have extreme modifiers like -90 or something like that...i just think one could use the intimidation rolls as a guideline..so if someone rolls a 1502163 in intimidation then you can consider this man to be bloody scary, but that dosnt mean your char should run screaming away..cause you might be a level 30 paladin and have dealth with such terrors before..but honerstly us lowbies..should run..cause hes a freaking monster hehe
to that i might also add..that it should be a crime in cities like cordor to scare people like that..
_________________
-Ja'acira Arrows'R'Us
-Balorin Wolfhammer- A dwarf so old he remember when the Beer stein was invented
Saisha Jai'diem Knight of bahamut, and abit of a looker
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Pony
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Posted: Wed, Jan 07 2009, 21:33 PM |
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Player
Joined: 07 May 2005
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---
Last edited by Pony on Tue, Nov 05 2019, 12:11 PM, edited 1 time in total.
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Phantom-D
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Posted: Wed, Jan 07 2009, 22:27 PM |
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Player
Joined: 01 Aug 2005
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I think the problem is social skills were never meant for use on PCs. At least the core books don't give many rules for using social skills on another PC...
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Kraniumbrud
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Posted: Wed, Jan 07 2009, 22:35 PM |
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Player
Joined: 08 Dec 2008
Location: Denmark
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i also think people forget its not nessasary to max our all skills...yes you might not be that good in fights..but you might get some good social skills to enhance your char..
just my 2 øre (danish cents)
_________________
-Ja'acira Arrows'R'Us
-Balorin Wolfhammer- A dwarf so old he remember when the Beer stein was invented
Saisha Jai'diem Knight of bahamut, and abit of a looker
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Halen_Van
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Posted: Wed, Jan 07 2009, 22:39 PM |
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Player
Joined: 21 Nov 2005
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And the prize goes to Phantom. NPC's have a set difficult on what can effect them. PC's have players.
Sadly this means against PC's, all that matters are ab/ac, hp/damage, and spells/saves.
Somehow, while we refuse to allow territorial control to be settled with pvp, diplomacy breaks down largely into pvp.
_________________ "Freedom is the Right of all sentient beings."
-Optimus Prime.
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HellScourge
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Posted: Wed, Jan 07 2009, 23:00 PM |
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Player
Joined: 17 Jan 2007
Location: GMT+1
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Not for all of us Halen though, I prefer to solve conflicts, however they arise, by talking.
Prolly is that just me, after coming from a game where everyone played a half god power house or somesuch, battles took 8 hours and were quite flashy (Mostly it was decided who would win by tossing a coin), or if someone deliberately gave their characters a weakness. So, fighting was one way, talking another.
And just ebcause you can smack someone down does that not mean you are right.
_________________ "Most assume that all the followers of Lathander are great morning people. They're very wrong." "I think we are the only group where AD&D stands for Attention Deficit Disorder." TeroSNS wrote: Hello Everyone [...] I like tentacles [...]
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Halen_Van
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Posted: Wed, Jan 07 2009, 23:02 PM |
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Player
Joined: 21 Nov 2005
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I concur on that. I certainly would rather have a more generous amount of social flair to it. But the fact of the matter is, social characters fail vs. combat characters in practice. You can look mean, scary, intimidating, or a beacon of unfailing charm, beauty, and goodness. But the guy who can roll you gets the last laugh at the end unless you got enough friends to roll him.
_________________ "Freedom is the Right of all sentient beings."
-Optimus Prime.
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Wed, Jan 07 2009, 23:58 PM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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Welcome to a medieval fantasy realm, Halen, where might very often makes right.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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Halen_Van
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Posted: Thu, Jan 08 2009, 0:10 AM |
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Player
Joined: 21 Nov 2005
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And yet the man who seemed as tall as a giant, whose words rang like thunder in the hearts of men, the stuff of myths and legends and tales...
Fails vs. numbers.
Homer's journies are considered an epic, while Hercules was just tales and legends. Hercules could lift an ox and turn spears on his abs, but Homer was a man, with wits, intellegence, and charm.
But in Amia, Hercules rules the roost regaurdless. Because no one gives a crap about the social abilities. It's all about the numbermancy in combat, the dev-crits and +6 loots.
_________________ "Freedom is the Right of all sentient beings."
-Optimus Prime.
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Sakkran
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Posted: Thu, Jan 08 2009, 0:29 AM |
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Player
Joined: 09 Nov 2006
Location: The Hive Ward, Sigil
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I distinctly remember someone trying to intimidate Phenwick, who, in turn, proceeded to feed the guy his riot truncheon. Intimidation doesn't always result in cowering. Fight -or- Flight.
_________________
Morgan Blancrest: The Rage from The Cage
Lucas Baker: Humble Swordsman
Wesley Fletcher: Greasemonkey Extraordonaire
Also known as: EmoPinata
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Halen_Van
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Posted: Thu, Jan 08 2009, 0:57 AM |
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Player
Joined: 21 Nov 2005
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I can respect that view, the fact that it causes a flinching is good. Some people will fight a shark in the water after suffering a massive bite out of desperation, and often enough win.
_________________ "Freedom is the Right of all sentient beings."
-Optimus Prime.
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Thu, Jan 08 2009, 1:55 AM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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Halen_Van wrote: And yet the man who seemed as tall as a giant, whose words rang like thunder in the hearts of men, the stuff of myths and legends and tales...
Fails vs. numbers.
Homer's journies are considered an epic, while Hercules was just tales and legends. Hercules could lift an ox and turn spears on his abs, but Homer was a man, with wits, intellegence, and charm.
But in Amia, Hercules rules the roost regaurdless. Because no one gives a crap about the social abilities. It's all about the numbermancy in combat, the dev-crits and +6 loots.
Firstly: Homer was the author (purportedly) of the two great Greek Epics, not the protagonist. The Iliad centered on the Trojan War, and the Odyssey about Odysseus' journey home afterwards.
Secondly: "Epic" is a genre of literature and therefore doesn'tr really fall into the definition of "epic" like dungeons and dragons players might consider it. If Hercules' story had been written in the fashion of the Oddysey and the Iliad, then his tale would be considered an "epic" as well.
It's worth noting that while Odysseus was certianly a man of charm, wit, and intelligence, he wasn't lacking in physical strength, and was also a legendary archer. He has just as much "numbermancy" backup up his social skills as Hercules, who isn't as muh brawn over brain as you might expect, if you've sat and read the Twelve Trials.
Edit for thirdly: I could name more than a couple PCs who, by words, have commanded more power than most PCs on amia will ever dream of.
Hell, you play one of them, and he's your namesake.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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Halen_Van
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Posted: Thu, Jan 08 2009, 2:07 AM |
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Player
Joined: 21 Nov 2005
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Thanks for the corrections, I was writting while closing at work, so I wasn't all together. :p
And yes, but it wasn't because of his 40 Charisma. It ends up being a player's personal magnetism and creativity rather than thier character's.
_________________ "Freedom is the Right of all sentient beings."
-Optimus Prime.
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Thu, Jan 08 2009, 2:10 AM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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I would disagree, because Halen wouldn't be played like that unless you had given him that 40 charisma.
Anyways, if you want it to be his 40 charisma, wouldn't that mean Halen simply rules like Hercules does? Rolling a 40 in cha and watching people be bowled over isn't any less "numbermancy" than Torin rolling his 38 STR and people being literally bowled over.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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Halen_Van
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Posted: Thu, Jan 08 2009, 2:20 AM |
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Player
Joined: 21 Nov 2005
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Thanks for the compliment to my rp skillz. What my arguement is, why do I need to personally have a high amount of personal magnetism that I can convey through emotes when to have a str 40 character I don't need to even be able to lift a box of tissues. While I obviously appretiate those that take the time to make long-drawn out posts that perfectly convey scene and meaning, I also feel for those that aren't actually charming, witty, or personally magnetic in real life, attempting, and making thier rolls to back it up.
I don't need to drive over to say, Dakotean's house and fist-fight with him to make the point that my characters can hit and hit hard if need be.
I do try to make my lower charisma characters less magnetic. Saris for his thirty Charisma typically uses some charm, but mostly fear and intimidation. Sagoi comes in abrasive for the most part, and it takes someone willing to sift through his persona to get to like him. But that's just because I try to rp my stats out.
Do I want, *Intimidates Populace* *Rolls 1d100 = 13 + 50 = 63* *Rawr run in fearz*? Not really. But I can't really expect someone to know how to type of a whole paragraph filled with such remarkable description and menace that I feel chills in order to have my character react in fear, flinch, or attack in an attempt to catch his aggressor off-gaurd. We'd all have to be proffessional authors. This is a game, and it provides some mechanics for this which could be easily adapted for use against PC's like the combat rolls are capable of being turned against PC's, and supported with as much rp as we require for pvp.
_________________ "Freedom is the Right of all sentient beings."
-Optimus Prime.
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Yossarin
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Posted: Thu, Jan 08 2009, 2:31 AM |
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Player
Joined: 23 Jan 2006
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I believe it is a fallacy to equate good writing with high charisma. There's no need for fantastic, drawn-out emotes for a charismatic character. There's no need for giant blocks of text when trying to persuade or intimidate someone. You can accomplish these things with minimal verbage, if you know how to say precisely what needs to be said, and do it succinctly.
That said...I would almost wager the PC's charisma or personal magnetism is actually more directed by the player's intelligence. No, that's not a slight, just an observation. And I'm far from qualified to be making those kinds of observations.
Hell, I could even argue that a player with great personal magnetism and charisma wouldn't be sitting in front of a computer playing on Amia, but instead out partying and getting laid.
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Halen_Van
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Posted: Thu, Jan 08 2009, 2:32 AM |
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Player
Joined: 21 Nov 2005
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Why do you think I've been gone for awhile. :p
Just kidding.
_________________ "Freedom is the Right of all sentient beings."
-Optimus Prime.
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Uberuce
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Posted: Thu, Jan 08 2009, 10:17 AM |
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Player
Joined: 11 Nov 2005
Location: Near the bar.
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My model for a succesful faction is of a small number of players who are comparitively indifferent to the action game, but love all that creativity and characterisation guff. Therefore they put the RP hours in and because they've made interesting characters and are pleasant OOCly, they rise to positions of leadership even though their build is bloody dreadful and they operate it like someone's glued live squirrels to their fingers.
Meanwhile, there are players who love the pwn, for whom building is a honourable form of craftmanship, and for whom an hour spent trawling the shops of both servers so they can squeeze a single extra Mythal slot onto their gearset is marvellous use of time. When they eventually get bored of bossrunning they head back to town and look for something to do, RPly.
This is where the two worlds combine. If the powergamers are pleasant OOCly, then even if they aren't good or diligent roleplayers they'll get a warm welcome into the faction and serve as guard dogs, levelling buddies, assassins and sources of desperately needed rebuild advice.
If after a while they don't find the main faction players interesting or pleasant, then they'll leave, quietly or noisily, and look for another faction to PvP for.
Thus, just being a monstrous PvP build won't be enough to become a big player ICly; if you're not interesting and pleasant, then you'll be in a faction of one before long.
Now, 'pleasant' and 'interesting' are subjective animals, so there's no point trying to give advice on being either, but one thing I do know is that they've bugger all to do with the dicebag.
When factions are in conflict I agree with Halen's point that people only care about PvP prowess, so the only reason they give a monkey's about what the faction leader is saying is the PvP pitbulls flanking him or her, but the question is: why are the guard dogs there?
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QPR
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Posted: Sat, Jan 10 2009, 0:07 AM |
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Player
Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Location: Norway
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On the side, Im abit curious as relatively new here: Could a character succeed well as a social type through how he is played instead of skill points. Lets take a ranger as an example, they get many skills and few skill points, and might use his 4-6 skill points in Hide, move silently, listen, animal empathy and maybe heal and set traps. No skills in persuade, intimidate, or bluff, but perhaps 12-14 in wisdom and intelligence. Would this character be able, through RP, to become either immensly feared, persuasive or a good liar, because the player wishes him to be?
I do not wish the amount of skill points you have to limit you in social RP, as they often do. Even worse with fighters, who as induviduals could be very persuasive, eeve if he only has skills in dicipline and parry, in my oppinion any way.
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Sat, Jan 10 2009, 0:22 AM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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Quote: Would this character be able, through RP, to become either immensly feared, persuasive or a good liar, because the player wishes him to be?
Yes, provided you get good at, you know, actually influencing people.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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QPR
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Posted: Sat, Jan 10 2009, 0:28 AM |
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Player
Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Location: Norway
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Nice. Just dont have enough skill points to back it up game mechanic wise, but will certainly try my best as a player.
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Sat, Jan 10 2009, 0:29 AM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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Given the number of people who will flat ignore any roll you make and or never call for one anyways, I'd say you're quite fine.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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Garnith
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Posted: Wed, Jan 21 2009, 2:51 AM |
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Player
Joined: 22 Jan 2008
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My view on social rolls: They're there in a more passive capacity than most people seem to think. For example, if a character is undecided or shaky on a subject, and you are trying to persuade him/her, give an in character argument, and back it up with a roll. However, if the character is set on something, go ahead and try the argument, but don't bother with the roll, because that will either:
A. Make them incredibly frustrated, because they will have to do something their character would NEVER do (Depending on their roll).
B. Ignore your roll, which will really frustrate you, and isn't really that good RP wise.
Or C. Compromise, for example, if beaten on an intimidate, the character may step back a little, but then return to the previous position, glaring.
I can't really comment on how it works Vs Dm/NPCs, due to there almost never being a DM on when I play, my characters being otherwise occupied when they are on, and if by some chance I see one, there's normally a crowd already surrounding them. Occasionally my characters will sit and watch the show, but they rarely get involved of their own violation.
I don't like crowds.
Anyway, thats my annual post, so I'm off to sleep in a hole till next year. 
_________________
"Hi, I'm Garnith, and I'm an Invisophile."
Garnith, Ranth, Rick, Burick, Elail, Deryl, Kane, Rini.
Suggestion Rule of Thumb: Don't think about how neat it would be to use, think about how neat it would be for people to use against you.
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