AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

This got me to thinking and I read and reread the PvP rules and it covers many things, but there are a few questions I still have.

1.) Healing potions.... are they allowed?

2.) Raise dead scrolls, raise dead spells and similar... are they allowed?

I've always played as they're not..... can I get a little clarification?

The rules don't say they're not allowed, so they obviously are allowed. There's no reason to assume otherwise, therefore it's not mentioned. Whether you use them is up to personal taste, of course.

Personally, I always tried to avoid using them, in the past. I've come to the realization that it's become habit, though, after rather frequent combat with some of the less-than-savory PvPers out there, so it's something I really need to fix.

Anyway, a great many people consider it rather cheap, or at least a bit inconsiderate, to use Raise Dead scrolls and Heal Potions in PvP. Why? Well, for one, even if your character gets a drop on two others and ambushes them, they could just Raise Dead back and forth, and no one would ever die. The same goes with Heal Potions. In the end, it usually just comes down to how many potions each person has, or how many Raise Deads each team has, as opposed to actual skill and level, and such.

As Iron said, it's a matter or personal taste, but it's something to keep in mind. Many people don't care one way or another, but many others won't like it if you consistently use Raise Dead and Heal.

Some of it has to do with the divergence in idea of how people think of death. I know that Disco mentioned somewhere that "whatever your screen says it what has happened" but many people will view it how they wish, regardless, and that "You have died/You are unconscious" screen is pure mechanics; pure mechanics can rarely account for the events of RP.

Point is, some people don't consider being killed even in PvP as death, rather knocked to a state of near-death in incapacitation, especially if the killer does not actually state they are killing the character. Characters are killed mechanically all the time without it being actual death, so the line of when it is and is not "actual death" are blurred to begin with. Either way, it's much easier to sprung up to rejoin battle if you look as Raise Dead scrolls as Saving You From Death With Some Adrenaline And Hope scrolls.

As much as it may also be considered cheap, I think it makes sense that healing potions would be used in PvP as well as PvE, especially in a situation where it's fairly random and, for lack of a better term, pointless PvP. If it doesn't involve plot or story progression and is just a macho encounter, it makes no IC sense for a character to not use everything at their disposal to survive and win the encounter (unless they happen to have a code or belief which modifies this.)

Anyway, conflict of approach and mentality. It'll always be around, and my opinion on the matter is they need to be dealt with case by case; after players get more familiar with each other, IC conflict of any kind tends to streamline, anyway.

I always consider anything in which Raise dead or greater to be the only fix as Death. There is a reason why the spell exsists. Death is cheapened, but rightly so.

Well, I had once my healer prepared with healing spells, she is a druid actually. So I shifter into earth elemental and fought them for a moment, my summon did most the work, when I started losing too much hp I just shifted out and ran for a moment and then casted heal.

In this case I didnt see anythign wrong with it because almost all my spell slots were booked to heal spells. Expect a few spells.

Ofc my druid would use the heal spells she has prepared. She wouldnt let them just kill her. Ofc some of them didnt like but I explained how the matter was and I wouldnt care for their opinion, my char wouldnt just let them kill her if could do anything to prevent it.

Carter wrote:

Why? Well, for one, even if your character gets a drop on two others and ambushes them, they could just Raise Dead back and forth, and no one would ever die. The same goes with Heal Potions. In the end, it usually just comes down to how many potions each person has, or how many Raise Deads each team has, as opposed to actual skill and level, and such.

One of my favourite PvP battles ever was Va vs a Devcrit WM, a Devcrit/EDR Barbarian and another cornersneak.

I think it lasted for 15 straight minutes because I could never quite get all three on the ground simultaneously, so the surviving one or two could Raise. I don't want to name names, but BloodNAshes' Barbie, Gralg Elfbane is an utter bastard to kill when you're really in a hurry.

Va bit it in the end, got flanked by the cornersneak while hacking pitiably at Gralg, but it was vastly more fun than what would have happened if they'd not Raised each other.

ainjyll wrote:

This got me to thinking and I read and reread the PvP rules and it covers many things, but there are a few questions I still have.

1.) Healing potions.... are they allowed?

2.) Raise dead scrolls, raise dead spells and similar... are they allowed?

I've always played as they're not..... can I get a little clarification?

Of course they are. Makes no sense to chug heal potions in the Abyss fighting monsters but once you get back to Cordor & fight Joe Schmo you don't.

Carter wrote:

Personally, I always tried to avoid using them, in the past. I've come to the realization that it's become habit, though, after rather frequent combat with some of the less-than-savory PvPers out there, so it's something I really need to fix.

Anyway, a great many people consider it rather cheap, or at least a bit inconsiderate, to use Raise Dead scrolls and Heal Potions in PvP. Why? Well, for one, even if your character gets a drop on two others and ambushes them, they could just Raise Dead back and forth, and no one would ever die. The same goes with Heal Potions. In the end, it usually just comes down to how many potions each person has, or how many Raise Deads each team has, as opposed to actual skill and level, and such.

As Iron said, it's a matter or personal taste, but it's something to keep in mind. Many people don't care one way or another, but many others won't like it if you consistently use Raise Dead and Heal.

Personally I see it as no different to anything else - if you are wiling to pay that much money to win, go ahead, and if you're not don't complain because the other person is IMO.

So, based on the samples so far, it seems that some people think that using Raise Dead scrolls and heal potions is a cheap way to keep fighting, while others see no problem with it.

I know that the rules don't say that they're not allowed, so obviously they are. But, while screaming your order at your server in a restaurant is not illegal it is, however, frowned upon. That is what I was trying to get at... what does the majority say? Maybe I should have made this a poll.

I, personally, see using Raise Dead and heal potions as cheap. In the case of Magiros and ones similar, I've never seen anything wrong with it. It's one of the benefits of the class. I just can't see a Dev Crit Barbarian who most likely has an INT of no more than 8 reading off a magic scroll in the midst of combat. *shrug*

I suppose there's no real right answer here... I was just curious.

Ah. Well, I personally don't mind it at all. If it's a swordplay duel, like the ones I often participated in Melee-Magthere, I will opt not to use them. In arena battles, I have no desire to spend gold for what's just pure entertainment. If it's a real skirmish situation, my characters will most likely chug them down like starwberry juice.

It's personal taste, though if you win in PvP without healing or raising, you get to claim more bragging rights, especially if the other guy did heal or raise.

They're allowed, some people just have personal decisions to not use them, and if their PC dies as a result, they automatically lose the ability to complain, because the only thing that stopped them from pushing the button to chug a Heal was themselves.

True enough.

"Man I whooped you till you chugged that heal, and then you still ended up almost dead before you got me."

"Shut up, a win's a win."

"Can't win without your potions. Take me on, no potions this time."

Is a prefectly ic response.

So basically we've reached the verdict: Using Heal Potions and Raises in PvP is lame and everybody who does that is a lamearse Schnitzel who should be laughed out of the server. Not pressuring anyone, naturally.

Last edited by Pony on Tue, Nov 05 2019, 12:11 PM, edited 1 time in total.

Herra Tutteri wrote:

So basically we've reached the verdict: Using Heal Potions and Raises in PvP is lame and everybody who does that is a lamearse Schnitzel who should be laughed out of the server. Not pressuring anyone, naturally.

Nope, not really the conclusion at all.

ainjyll wrote:

So, based on the samples so far, it seems that some people think that using Raise Dead scrolls and heal potions is a cheap way to keep fighting, while others see no problem with it.

I know that the rules don't say that they're not allowed, so obviously they are. But, while screaming your order at your server in a restaurant is not illegal it is, however, frowned upon. That is what I was trying to get at... what does the majority say? Maybe I should have made this a poll.

I, personally, see using Raise Dead and heal potions as cheap. In the case of Magiros and ones similar, I've never seen anything wrong with it. It's one of the benefits of the class. I just can't see a Dev Crit Barbarian who most likely has an INT of no more than 8 reading off a magic scroll in the midst of combat. *shrug*

Then again some people may see dev-crit or HiPS as the proverbial shout in the restaurant .. it's a matter of personal opinion. If you don't want to use them, don't but don't expect other people not to.

I'll go for the more positive method of evangelising the fun factor of using and withholding Heals and Raises in solo and group PvP, respectively.

Bragging rights and fun are to be had in greater amounts by not using Heals in duel PvP.

Raises and Heals in group brawls mean the usual 20-rounds-of-godpower and untouchable-AC-poke-you-to-death characters no longer dominate.

Of course, I'm a competitive sonofabitch, so if I need to be lame to win, I will. Then you have the tricky proposition of trying to browbeat an ego like mine into accepting fault. Good luck with that.

Do as your character would. If you character would do anything to stay alive, do anything (Without abusing mechanics). If your character has some reason to not heal with everything they have, then do that.

Simply act in PVP as your character would in that situation. Every choice, from saving the day, to what potion you choose to use, is all 100% IC. Remember.

TormakSaber wrote:

It's personal taste, though if you win in PvP without healing or raising, you get to claim more bragging rights, especially if the other guy did heal or raise.

They're allowed, some people just have personal decisions to not use them, and if their PC dies as a result, they automatically lose the ability to complain, because the only thing that stopped them from pushing the button to chug a Heal was themselves.

No, Tormak.... peer pressure stopped me!

But who succumbed to the peer pressure?

Estara wrote:

No, Tormak.... peer pressure stopped me!

I'm your peer. Give me money.

Did you bring your little black box with a 73 on it, Ruce?

Ehh, call it cheap, call it unsavory, but a win is a win. There are those out there who have a sense of "honor" when they fight, and those who do whatever it takes to win. Just depends on the character I guess.

I am so going to make a little black box with the number 73 written on the side, to decorate my desk.

Well for starters, there is no real winners or losers, just roleplay. You've temporarily lost for 5 mins at the most on this server. No gold or xp lost.

Chug all the heals and raises you want. The back streets of cordor isn't the arena. The wilds of forrstakkr isn't the arena. Life aint fair and whilst this tries to emulate Forgotten Realms campaign setting, the rules are distinctly NwN in PvM and PvP.

Take out Wails and Dev. Crits and I'll be happy to never use a raise scroll IG in battle. If you're going to allow insta deaths, then also allow insta lifes.

soundofastream wrote:

Take out Wails and Dev. Crits and I'll be happy to never use a raise scroll IG in battle. If you're going to allow insta deaths, then also allow insta lifes.

You mean Wail and Dev and Slay Living and Implosion and Destruction and Fnger of Death and (arguably) Bigby and Cloudkill (on <9 HD things!) and Word of Faith?

Quote:

One of my favourite PvP battles ever was Va vs a Devcrit WM, a Devcrit/EDR Barbarian and another cornersneak.

I think it lasted for 15 straight minutes because I could never quite get all three on the ground simultaneously, so the surviving one or two could Raise. I don't want to name names, but BloodNAshes' Barbie, Gralg Elfbane is an utter bastard to kill when you're really in a hurry.

Va bit it in the end, got flanked by the cornersneak while hacking pitiably at Gralg, but it was vastly more fun than what would have happened if they'd not Raised each other.

There was another battle I was involved in with you, where I was fighting one of the Blake brothers, yourself, and some other person whom I forget was there (sorry other person) along with some of the Bloodfang gobbos on my side. I think that one went for about 10-15 minutes in a row as well or longer. You got feared and hacked at a few times and thus had to heal, and I think the other fellow went down a couple times. I also needed to swig a few heals to keep going myself, and some gobbos raised each other a couple time as well 'till they all went down. Had nobody healed or raised it would not nearly have been as epic and grueling. So, while a lot of the time heal pots and raise scrolls can feel cheap, they are the only real way to have grand, extended battles in NWN.

I do see using heal kits in battle tho as kind of silly, because of the length of time it really ought to take to heal wounds by hand, but then using heal kits in battle is not really efficient anyway unless you have extraordinarily high Heal. And, if you do have that much, maybe you'd be able to actually heal by hand at the rate NWN processes a heal check.

80 heal, baby. You can do in 8 hours what it takes 2 full weeks of 24 hour bedrest to do. And you can do it to I believe a dozen people simultaneously. What a doctor.

TormakSaber wrote:

80 heal, baby. You can do in 8 hours what it takes 2 full weeks of 24 hour bedrest to do. And you can do it to I believe a dozen people simultaneously. What a doctor.

*Sighs* I love my Salandran

I understand where everyone is coming from, but I've been in a few battles that I just wanted over. One's where both groups were standing there hacking and slashing at each other, but hitting so rarely that our items were pretty much regenerating the damage we were getting on their own.

I guess it really is just personal preference.

I don't like PvP, and I'm not 100% keen on the lifting of limitations on PvP that has happened.

Thus in my few. I like to have PvP over with as fast as possiable. I'm actually happy when I get Dev Critted sometimes. Though when the person is being an ass (and you can usually tell), I do get annoyed.

Pots shouldn't be allowed unless you break battle quickly to use them. In the middle of a fight, being struck at with a blade would keep you more then distracted from using a healing potion.

Raid Dead Scrolls, Spell and such, they are good. Simply because it allows them to bring back fallen allies. Though the ally should be disorientated. As well as healing potions, they should be uses outside of engaged combat. Same reason.

i agree with selvec, raise can be alowed but heal seems unrealistic.

I personaly never use heal, maybe thats why my cleric epic dodger always die PvP. But my dev crit paly 61 AB tend to win more often, so the matter is more to create char that is able to kill fast with improved knockdown and Dev Crit with hight AB/Damages.

TormakSaber wrote:

Herra Tutteri wrote:

So basically we've reached the verdict: Using Heal Potions and Raises in PvP is lame and everybody who does that is a lamearse Schnitzel who should be laughed out of the server. Not pressuring anyone, naturally.

Nope, not really the conclusion at all.

Sure it is!

You just don't know it yet.

A general conclusion would be: As long as Raise scrolls and Heal potions are IC, your character is a complete and utter dumbass if he/she doesn't use them to save his/her own ass.

Acrid wrote:

i agree with selvec, raise can be alowed but heal seems unrealistic.

I personaly never use heal, maybe thats why my cleric epic dodger always die PvP. But my dev crit paly 61 AB tend to win more often, so the matter is more to create char that is able to kill fast with improved knockdown and Dev Crit with hight AB/Damages.

Heal seems unrealistic, in a game where you can be hit a dozen times with a battle axe and still be fighting at full capacity?

One's character obviously has the ability to buy spells packed in a bottle, and since it is used often in PvM, one's characters are obviously willing to use it. Why would they not use it simply because a different target, a harder target is attacking? I would think that would be the perfect IC excse to use more.

Yurell wrote:

Acrid wrote:

i agree with selvec, raise can be alowed but heal seems unrealistic.

I personaly never use heal, maybe thats why my cleric epic dodger always die PvP. But my dev crit paly 61 AB tend to win more often, so the matter is more to create char that is able to kill fast with improved knockdown and Dev Crit with hight AB/Damages.

Heal seems unrealistic, in a game where you can be hit a dozen times with a battle axe and still be fighting at full capacity?

One's character obviously has the ability to buy spells packed in a bottle, and since it is used often in PvM, one's characters are obviously willing to use it. Why would they not use it simply because a different target, a harder target is attacking? I would think that would be the perfect IC excse to use more.

Well...

Herra Tutteri wrote:

TormakSaber wrote:

Herra Tutteri wrote:

So basically we've reached the verdict: Using Heal Potions and Raises in PvP is lame and everybody who does that is a lamearse Schnitzel who should be laughed out of the server. Not pressuring anyone, naturally.

Nope, not really the conclusion at all.

Sure it is!

You just don't know it yet.

..that

Selvec Darkon wrote:

Pots shouldn't be allowed unless you break battle quickly to use them. In the middle of a fight, being struck at with a blade would keep you more then distracted from using a healing potion.

My primary is a Mage. Are you telling me that quaffing a tiny vial with:

a.) Bull's Might
b.) Speed
c.) Stoneskin
d.) Panthers grace

are okies, but chugging a "specifically designed item that's entire purpose in being created is to allow portable healing magic whilst in battle" heal potion is lame?

Pfffft. When you only have 170 HP unbuffed to begin with, I think you'll reconsider that notion.

:lol:

I have no issue with any potions being used in combat. Period. It provokes an attack of opportunity, and WYSIWYG - if you char can stay alive long enough to use them, so be it.

"Nothing is fair in Love or War"

You want chivalry and honour...go for it, have your honourable duels in the arena, and don't chug anything. Hell, no buffs then, right? I mean, if it's just a swordsplay match....

But you want to fight for real, for whatever reasons? You better be ready, in all forms and fashion, because I can tell you I will be.

Regards,

Drinking a potion is a Standard Action that provokes an attack of opportunity. These actions are hardwired into even the PnP system: Why should it be any different here?

FA_Frey_XC wrote:

"specifically designed item that's entire purpose in being created is to allow portable healing magic whilst in battle"

1.) Source?

2.) Having never really played much PnP, I never collected any books on the game. I didn't even have a Player's Handbook until after I bought NWN. So, there's a bunch of more obscure stuff out there that I don't know about that I'm sure someone will be more than happy to quote if I'm wrong here.

So, for arguments sake.... we've got ourselves your generic hack-and-slash character with an INT of 8 or maybe less. That means that this character knows his native language and may or may not have some level of reading and writing skills. Yet, somehow in the midst of blood-curdling combat, he can suddenly read off a magical scroll with no problem at all to bring his companion back into the fray all while some number of enemies are trying to hack him to pieces?

I would like to think that most of us that play are of at least average intelligence. I'm quite literate and I have a hard time reading street signs when I'm in traffic.... and while there are blood thirsty savages all around me, they're not swinging swords at my head.

I saw a chap in a big old ruckus in the forest yesterday whose emote for Heals was that he just smashed it over his head. I thought that was pretty stylish.

Stylish, but the magic for potions, to my knowledge, only works if ingested.

I don't see why you couldn't get a contact version made though, i mean they can make contact poisons...

I'm with Ruceroni. Stylish > Lame Technicalities. The Heal pots soaked through his hair-pores to his brain.

But I bet it was Ruce himself who emoted that and he's trying to give himself points. His (EVIL SHOULD NEVER HAVE BEEN NAMED THAT) character Stillborn. Sounds like something he'd do.

Stilly would probably try to feed his axe before himself.

Now that we're off topic...

... am I the only one that thinks "O dear God, what now?" every time I read a thread heading that resembles "I have been thinking..." or "I have a good plan!"?

I dare to ask it here because this sensible thread is actually the exception to my expectations (and every morning I still think "O gawds" until I realise it's this one, of course).

I miss ole Stilly.

He's the only char that's gotten the Finger from Frey, and Frey lived to tell about it.

Regards,

Selvec Darkon wrote:

Pots shouldn't be allowed unless you break battle quickly to use them. In the middle of a fight, being struck at with a blade would keep you more then distracted from using a healing potion.

You do that automaticly (see: Attack of opportunity).

This got me to thinking

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