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Silver > Red >= Prismatic

In terms of pure ability and chaacter sheet

Pris > Silver > Red

Then my shadow must of rolled a 6 on each STR drain against that Silver. Not impossible, but it was fun to watch ^^

I'm conferring with El Terra regarding cleverclogs stuff to do with the summons business in general.

Blackdragon12121 wrote:

Well, the pit fiend had an AB of 30 or so last time I looked. The western grey ground squirrel might actually take it. 2 squirrels and their probably a shooin for victory.

Fun fact about the character sheet for summons: it doesn't display the AB gained from creature weapon enhancement. The Pitfiend has +5 claws and at Gate II has 35 unbuffed AB, so unless you typo'd, you were out by 10.

Nerfing this and that why? Even the playing feild for the epic summons

sounds good, but now if you just want to nerf all the summons, then summoners

will be pointless to make. If you want to nullify a particular class subtype of

caster or whatever then lets make everyone a lvl 3 fighter and you can't

go past that level. Sounds good go me. The OP was a good suggestion so

we can know what to expect. This other stuff is one person telling another

"i don't like what you do so change it" sort of thing. Thats how i see it.

(pardon the strange format)

EDK needs a nerf, make it way weaker and give it a duration same as the mummy dust. I'm also still a firm beliver that the efreeti needs a reskin!

So... Now if it gets the same duration every happy level 30 wizard/sorcerer/cleric will jump up of joy and yell: " I wasted my feats! "

Uberuce wrote:

Blackdragon12121 wrote:

Well, the pit fiend had an AB of 30 or so last time I looked. The western grey ground squirrel might actually take it. 2 squirrels and their probably a shooin for victory.

Fun fact about the character sheet for summons: it doesn't display the AB gained from creature weapon enhancement. The Pitfiend has +5 claws and at Gate II has 35 unbuffed AB, so unless you typo'd, you were out by 10.

I didnt get to look at the character sheet for long enough. It got beat so fast you see...by a bunch of dodo's. This just makes a shocking defeat ignominous as well. :lol:

Oh and EDK doesnt need a nerf IMO. What does need an improvement is the other Gate summons/BG summons.

Please, dont take all the wizards toys away. If you wish to nerf EDK duration then at least let it pwn for the few minutes its out there. Same goes for Gate. Summon dynamics should follow a simpe formula: Pwnage is inversely proportional to the summon duration.

I can reskin easily enough when I know what an efreeti should look like.

The main problem with the summons is that they do too much all-day damage. Right now the tradeoff for mages being able to decimate any boss and any non-mage PC is....that they can also solo the mobs faster than tanks.

Blackdragon12121 wrote:

I didnt get to look at the character sheet for long enough. It got beat so fast you see...by a bunch of dodo's. This just makes a shocking defeat ignominous as well. :lol:

The dodos all have sneak attacks, and the Gate summon (if it's like the good-aligned one) doesn't have especially high AC.

Low AC + surrounded by sneak-attackers = ouch!

StandingBehindYou wrote:

Blackdragon12121 wrote:

I didnt get to look at the character sheet for long enough. It got beat so fast you see...by a bunch of dodo's. This just makes a shocking defeat ignominous as well. :lol:

The dodos all have sneak attacks, and the Gate summon (if it's like the good-aligned one) doesn't have especially high AC.

Low AC + surrounded by sneak-attackers = ouch!

*sigh* yes I did see the sneak attacks flashing up and i took that into account.

Are you going to systematically weaken every summon?

Yes. Except the ones that dno't need it.

My personal suggestion is:

1: Nerf EDK and give it the same duration as mummy dust (1/turn level and with epic conk 1/hour level)

2: Nerf gate and set the duration to 1/turn level

Why? Because EDK is massivly powerfull. EDK without epic conj isnt worth it (1 round/cl), this way it would be, EDK should still be stronger then Gate but Gate should be a not-as-good-alternative-as-edk but good enough for that one that doesnt want or take EDK.

Summon I-IX should be left alone, only thing is a reskin for Efreeti as that skin is broken.

Animate dead could use maybe another step for non-pms.

Morgh is the least undead summon, thats also wierd as morghs are sentient and way more powerfull then a wraith, but thats a minor detail.

Thats my two chips on the summons.

Blackdragon12121 wrote:

Level 24 GATE....6 dodos.

The Good aligned gate would have owned that spawn...or at least taken down one - thats all im saying.

Blackdragon12121 wrote:

:roll: *sigh* yes I did see the sneak attacks flashing up and i took that into account.

I just duplicated the experiment with a level 27 Gate planetar vs 7 dodos. The result was that the planetar was able to lower one of the dodos to Injured before being killed. I really don't think that the level 24 planetar would have "owned that spawn."

Your statements don't match with my experience. Maybe that was true two years ago, but the Gate I've been using hits fairly hard but dies very fast if things start targetting it.

Buff the Planetar and it's a perfect sidekick.

Terra_777 wrote:

My personal suggestion is:

1: Nerf EDK and give it the same duration as mummy dust (1/turn level and with epic conk 1/hour level)

Huzzah, we all would still have managed to waste precious feats even then.

Next time you say epic conj is a wasted feat I'll slap you!

For some builds it is.

Terra_777 wrote:

2: Nerf gate and set the duration to 1/turn level

Summon I-IX should be left alone, only thing is a reskin for Efreeti as that skin is broken.

I don't understand this perspective. Gate is a ninth level spell, Summon IX is a ninth level spell. If they both end up having the same duration as you suggest in #2 above, and you nerf the Gate to make it closer in power to the Summon IX, then don't we end up with two level nine summons that are effectively duplicative?

I mean, you could go for a concept where one summon was a DR tank and the other was a caster or damage cannon to give casters some flexibility in determining the type of aid they require but that would mean a redesign of the summons themselves as they currently do the same thing, just at a different power level and different duration.

StandingBehindYou wrote:

Blackdragon12121 wrote:

Level 24 GATE....6 dodos.

The Good aligned gate would have owned that spawn...or at least taken down one - thats all im saying.

Blackdragon12121 wrote:

:roll: *sigh* yes I did see the sneak attacks flashing up and i took that into account.

I just duplicated the experiment with a level 27 Gate planetar vs 7 dodos. The result was that the planetar was able to lower one of the dodos to Injured before being killed. I really don't think that the level 24 planetar would have "owned that spawn."

Your statements don't match with my experience. Maybe that was true two years ago, but the Gate I've been using hits fairly hard but dies very fast if things start targetting it.

Oh wow, interesting...I was so shocked by this that I went and tested it just now with a level 23 cleric I have. Her Gate preceded to pwn said dodo's on two separate occassions. Granted the plantar was badly injured after each fight, the fact remains, it still came out on top. I was thinking about repeating the test (im pretty sure the outcome would be the same, putting the probability at a 95% CI with your experience being in that other 5%), recording it and putting it on youtube for all to see but im just not that bothered. The plantar used to cast divine favour, but im not sure if it still does or not.

I have to agree with malgorine on this one. I always envisaged gate as being far more powerful than summon IX but the catch was its duration. You'd summon it, it'd tear it up, wreak havoc and poof its gone a minute later.

EDK should be massively powerful. However its duration should be kept at 1 round/level. possibly 2/ with conjuration feats. That way at least you get some bang for your buck with your epic feat. Or make them apply to gate instead

Well, my experiences with Chaotic evil gate - Cast to be a damage sink, well I deal buffed up cleric damage

Experiances watching buffed up planetar in action -

Earth!
Fire!
Wind!
Water!
Heart!

GO PLANETAR!

With your buffs combined I am Captain Planetar!

Captain Planetar, he's our hero,
Gonna take Abyss down to zero,
He's a fighter magnified,
And he's fighting on the casters side

Wait, why'd we bring the fighter again?

Sheer Gold! :lol:

maglorine wrote:

Terra_777 wrote:

2: Nerf gate and set the duration to 1/turn level

Summon I-IX should be left alone, only thing is a reskin for Efreeti as that skin is broken.

I don't understand this perspective. Gate is a ninth level spell, Summon IX is a ninth level spell. If they both end up having the same duration as you suggest in #2 above, and you nerf the Gate to make it closer in power to the Summon IX, then don't we end up with two level nine summons that are effectively duplicative?

I mean, you could go for a concept where one summon was a DR tank and the other was a caster or damage cannon to give casters some flexibility in determining the type of aid they require but that would mean a redesign of the summons themselves as they currently do the same thing, just at a different power level and different duration.

Gate scales, summon IX is the same all along. EDK and Mummy dust should still be better then Gate but Gate at 27 should be somewhere between summon IX and the epic summons. The current gate only lasts max 5 min which is... meh. While the big frigging Armageddon tank lasts for max 30 irl minutes. So, well all the above summons should be shifted down a notch.

A summon who can eat epic bosses is just too much. :cry:

I have to admit I'm completely baffled by the comments about nerfing summons since they're overpowered.

My reason for starting this thread was hoping to get a decent summons when (if) my Wiz gets access to the Epic Summons.

From reading the forums, I was lead to believe my Wiz would own the server once he got Lvl 9 summons. Man alive, was I in for disappointment. If the Juggernaut, Gate, or Death Slaad survive for 30-40 seconds, that's a really good day. I can use all my summons and maybe take out about 1/2 a spawn. And that's just for generic Brog spawn, never made it up the mountain to the giants.

I think the devs have a completely different perspective on this game than the typical player. We don't know all the tricks and have have all the inside info to maximize and optimize every aspect of play.

Please, before you destroy casters, sit back, take a break and imagine, if you can, what it's like from a "Joe the player" perspective.

And I would still like to see more info on summons to try and find one that's useful.

Buff Phantasmal Killer and Weird if you fail one save and not the other.

I am totally not biased toward illusion.

... well, alright, yes I am, but still, give! Most other servers have stun effects or a bit more damage, or whatnot. Or is it there, and am I just blind?

Dervish wrote:

I think the devs have a completely different perspective on this game than the typical player. We don't know all the tricks and have have all the inside info to maximize and optimize every aspect of play.

Please, before you destroy casters, sit back, take a break and imagine, if you can, what it's like from a "Joe the player" perspective.

He'll get his arse handed to him on a plate every day until he learns how to play.

The majority of the server is designed to be challenging to a group of three of four vaguely well built characters, by which I mean they're not WIS-based melee Sorceror halforcs.

Thus, if you want to solo, you'll need to know how to play, equip and build pretty well.

Uberuce wrote:

I can reskin easily enough when I know what an efreeti should look like.

The current model, the tiny mephistopheles, tail aside, is actually... a really good match for it. Well, fairly close.

Unless you want to use a fat red horned head human PC model summon, I guess. Can't think of anything else offhand that works.

I'd suggest: Horned PC summon, red, tail, fat model. Flame effect to ice the cake.

No, please, don't use the inferno effect. It's really really annoying. Hang out in Burning Dead Cryypt for 30 seconds.

Also Efreeti don't have tails.

The thing that annoys me most about the Meph model is the spear. Nay to a fire VFX, too.

Why not rescale the Little Meph down? Say 70, 80% size.

But then it still has a spear.

TormakSaber wrote:

No, please, don't use the inferno effect.

Elemental shield effect !!!

Has this request gone anywhere? I don't see any changes in the sidebar.

I would ask that ALL summons info be updated and expanded to include relevant changes from the default NWN.

That includes Gate, cleric Death Domain summons, Epic Spell summons, Blackguard summons, Palemaster summons, etc.

And from reading this thread, it sounds like some leveling out of the Good/Evil summons is warranted.

We are not posting the stats, no.

Uberuce wrote:

I'll trim down their damage and AB while I'm at it, yus.

Oh lord no. Please don't mess with my Planetar!

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