AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic - Character's Descriptions for Criminal and Spying Purposes

I always wanted the ability to change the players name, from the name, to "Someone" and back again, like an on/off function. And make clicking portraits for sending tells, impossible. But that's never ever happening..

But since not everyone describes their chars too well and in great description, and sometimes, it may just go too long, for you to remember it all, where your high wis/int char would remember it. I find myself using the *Describes INSERT NAME HERE in (detail related to spot and knowledge of the person)* more than I'd like. I include demenor, attitude, and such when I can though.

As for metaing I don't really see the problem. Height and weights, wouldn't be enough.. nor would colors on the cloth or armor. voice, demenor, attitude.. all of it would be needed aswell.. and most of, wich can only be described by people with good memories or insight into such.. or by the person who actually saw/herd/knew them. Only someone with a very good eye/ear and memory, would be able to recognize someone in a crowd.. and someone with even better eye/ear and memory would be able to spot, or identify someone, wearing different armor/outfits, and in a very different situation (like say.. somebody cought sneaking, wouldn't have the same demenor, attitude, and such, in say.. Cordor East, talking with mates)

*Posters are put up everywhere*

"The man, who was of human breed, reported by nearby witnesses, was said to wear a black attire, holding a sword with flames covering the actual blade, and a large tower shield. A dark helmet protected his head, showing little to nothing of his facial attributes."

Right. The problem with refering to people like the above, is that the game itself doesn't give enough specific visual details to properly describe a person.

And since quite a lot of characters (including my own) lack a proper description of their appearance in their bio, attempts at actually describing them (like the above example) offer next to nothing, since those descriptions which are possible, would often apply to a huge span of characters on Amia, thereby making them... useless.

Really Evil Pigeon wrote:

but as I said in the thread that was mentioned in the first post of this topic, I do believe that a spy shouyld always screenshot such things I personally take two screenshots using the nwn screenshot and Frasps for double security. you can prove you were there, and they are easier to work out what you actually heard later in time.

Exactly. It's a hassle for the player behind the spy character, but it's his/her best defense if the spied upon decides to cry out metagaming.

Gravemaskin wrote:

(...)armor/outfits, and in a very different situation (like say.. somebody cought sneaking, wouldn't have the same demenor, attitude, and such, in say.. Cordor East, talking with mates)

And it's then that metagaming enters. The name floating above the head, will invite metagaming, one way or the other, especially in the hands of immature/irresponsible players.

I have seen a couple of players trying to find a way to "question" Character A (this being the described criminal/spied upon), despite him wearing totally new outfits, having a different demeanor and maybe a different haircut; trying to press Character A in a way that, in the end, the other character will be able to make sure ICly that he was talking with the right person and then carry on with whatever plans he had in store.

People can't just accept that Character A is not the same, because the name is floating above the head. If they are not wearing the same clothes, behaving the same way, or portraying the same demeanors as the real, nice description, people can't just let go. They will keep trying to find a way to catch them.

As lame as it may sound, a criminal (especifically!) will always (expectedly) be one step ahead and knowing better than to wear those clothes and behaviour that he was wearing on the occasion of the crime s/he commited. A good criminal will always keep that in mind, learning from the mistakes.

But people should accept that and stop persecuting Character A, trying to catch Character A, just because "Oh, but your name was at the 'Wanted' note, and it was emoted there was a full description of you there". That's why things like clothes, at least, and weapons - if any were equipped at the moment - would be better off described together with the "Highly Detailed Sketch of Character A", and specifying whether or not the face could be seen.

If the character changes his appearance, clothes and demeanors after that in a way that people can't just say it's the same, then the others should accept defeat and give up, waiting for a day when, hopefully, Character A will be found wearing the same clothes and behaviour of the crime that triggered that "Wanted" poster.

Can you guys see what I am trying to say? I don't know if I am making my point across. English is not my main language.

Mr. Mago wrote:

(...)And since quite a lot of characters (including my own) lack a proper description of their appearance in their bio, attempts at actually describing them (like the above example) offer next to nothing, since those descriptions which are possible, would often apply to a huge span of characters on Amia, thereby making them... useless.

Exactly. Score for the described character for just being one more in the crowd, and not being so stupid as to make himself stick out.

Yossarin wrote:

For the record, I grant permission to simply say *describes Yossarin* when giving a physical description of my PC. The combination of celebrity status and Epic Reputation would make me foolhardy indeed if I thought I could avoid being pointed out and identified in a crowd with minimal effort.

You might say it's because of your "celebrity status" lol.. but I say it's because you're black and you dress like a girl. Though that's quite the form of celebrity status, ain't it......

Anyone who has ever bought a porftolio from Ray gets a character description of the clothing, hair colour, weapon type, fighting style, area of expertice, known asscoiates, place of residence, place of meeting, Names used, combat strengths, combat weaknesses.

I wont ever use the name above the head -unless- that is there name, I also believe that by providing all that information people will enventually find the target of interest. And if you cannot find the person with that information well quite frankly you dotn deserver too.

An example would be,

Target of interested other wise known as: Rice,little freddy, shade,
Race:Hin
Description: The target of interest is often seen wearing a black hood, dressed in fine black silk, little to no metal or leather on the clothing, the only other distinguishable colour would be a a dark shade of grey. Fragments of hair seen are often red.

Weapons: Dual kukri's, one flamed one sonic,
Shield:No
Known asscociates: Black flag, Banites,
Area of expertice: Trap setting, picking locks, shadowdancing
Place(s) Of residence: Shadowscape, cordor south, Sanctuary of sin(above and below)
Place of meeting: Wharftown local inn

Combat strength's, hiding within shadow's luring opponents onto prelaid traps, will always attack when opponent is believed to be defenceless and at there weakest point. Fight's long range, short range,

Combat weaknesses: Bigby forcefull, Death magic after mordekains, Domination spells, Easily fooled into believing a target is unprepared, has a slight arrogance. Shapechange dragon form, belg horn, traps.

Granted this cannot be used all the time, however to reduce cries of metagaming I have learnt to take screenshots and alot of them.

If naref is having troubles with a public list my advice would be to make portfolios like the above and deliver to matrons. If people cry metagame, offer them the portfolio and all the screenshots with the information you obtained. Yes being a spy should not have all the OOC hassle, however it does and we can only deal with it, or give up what we enjoy.

Regards
Craig

speaking of public lists, can james locke please pm me on how exactly the a perfect descrition of Ulnen was put on the list.

I love how because of your insistence you're character cannot be spied upon, so you must know every little detail of how this occurred because otherwise it's a bunh of meta.

THIS is exactly POOR SPORTSMANSHIP that I mentioned earlier. Suck it up, he spied on your character at some point.

It doesn't matter if people know what Ulnen's face look like, REP, you said yourself that she wears a helm at every possible moment. So nobody will be able to look at her face to recognize her, because it can't be seen.

And you should probably PM james first, instead of rudely asking him to PM you publicly on a topic he might not even be reading. I bet you he's quite nice, when approached nicely.

I have not read all the posts, so if it was said before, I am sorry.

I will say that B is awesome. There is a problem for some people, however, because many PCs do not have character descriptions. Portraits and body/skin tones that you can manipulate at the character creation are limited, and even if you do have a really awesome portrait not everyone can see it.

So I guess the question is, do we assume that everyone with merely -RP- in their description looks like their PC model? For people with a very detailed description it is not a problem, but for the others appearance can be confusing.

I don't like it when I RP and have to kind of guess what the other person's character concept is. Like, if someone has blue skin, I don't know if they are RPing an aquatic elf, a Water Genasi, or just a strange looking person. Things like that that our PCs would be able to tell by looking lead to some strange situations.

I would propose at least putting something basic in your characters description like race (if people could tell by looking at him/her), age they appear to be (no need to be actual) and maybe hair/eye color, hieght, build. If people did that, B would be an easier option.

Sorry about the Mini-rant.

Really Evil Pigeon wrote:

speaking of public lists, can james locke please pm me on how exactly the a perfect descrition of Ulnen was put on the list.

If my memory serves me correct, your description was given by an elistrean who was captured by Naref and interrogated under dominate person. He then gave descriptions and information on all those he knew. If this isn't possible it is not me who "cheated" you, but one of your own who metagamed.

Mr Mago wrote:

*Posters are put up everywhere*

"The man, who was of human breed, reported by nearby witnesses, was said to wear a black attire, holding a sword with flames covering the actual blade, and a large tower shield. A dark helmet protected his head, showing little to nothing of his facial attributes."

Right. The problem with refering to people like the above, is that the game itself doesn't give enough specific visual details to properly describe a person.

But this is just the problem with the short solution: if the human was wearing a black attire and a helmet, wielding a flaming sword and carrying a tower shield.. how are you going to describe him better than that? Solution A in this instance portrays exactly the problem with the approach. If you see someone dressed up like that, you can't say "*Describes Joe Darkheart*" because you don't. You describe someone dressed up in dark clothes, dark helmet and carrying the aforementioned items. You can't describe something you don't see. If you want to describe the way he fights, just how tall he is, or if he's wearing any recognizable jewelry, you can ask him.

soriano_ wrote:

If my memory serves me correct, your description was given by an elistrean who was captured by Naref and interrogated under dominate person. He then gave descriptions and information on all those he knew. If this isn't possible it is not me who "cheated" you, but one of your own who metagamed.

Obviously though, if Ulnen never shows her face, it would not have been part of the description given.

Best solution, IMHO;

Just get a screenshot of the character, and set it up like this;

"There is a description of a character looking like this"

That way you get an accurate depiction of a character, but one that doesn't metagame the name at all.

Exactly the problem with Approach A. I don't know what more to say, if it's not dead-obvious to everyone by now in light of that classic example.

I could list a dozen similar examples, but I'm sure each and everyone here can think of some themselves. No one has to knowingly metagame and things are still likely to go to hell when the information passes through enough people.

EDIT: Ron's suggestion is pretty good. It's a bit of a hassle, but this will always be a hassle unless you keep it to a group of trustworthy players of good sportsmanship.

IronAngel wrote:

It's a bit of a hassle, but this will always be a hassle unless you keep it to a group of trustworthy players of good sportsmanship.

And there's far too many players on Amia to ensure that everyone will be trustworthy and a good sport. So on Amia, it will always be a hassle.

It's the breaks of being a spy in a game.

Ron 'BrainSplitter' wrote:

Best solution, IMHO;

Just get a screenshot of the character, and set it up like this;

"There is a description of a character looking like this"

That way you get an accurate depiction of a character, but one that doesn't metagame the name at all.

But then, again, aren't you metagaming here? Did ~you~ draw the picture? Did you hire ~someone~ to draw it? The screenshot acting as a picture would be an OOC action, not an IC one, and it would work much the same as "Below is attached a picture of Character-A-'s-Name", in which "Character A's Name" is an OOC information.

And yes, I know that I am nitpicking.

EDIT: The name won't be metagamed, but I am not sure it would be "good sportsmanship" of the player that gave the "description". You are using of an OOC means to make something IC, and we all know that in the server we prefer IC to stay IC and OOC to stay OOC.

It'd be about the same as doing this (Gonna use Eary's scout appearance for an example)-

Elven, male, thin appearance with slightly-dark skin color and near-black blue hair. Pure black cloth armor with blue additional, knee-guard leather boots, black/silver spike bracers, steel gauntlets, leather pauldrons with steel spikes and black/obsidian spike helm with black or blue cowled robe, wielding a black longbow or black rapier with thin silver tower shield..

Or, a screeny of Eary without the name above his head, which doesn't have the limitations of a players writing ability or reading ability.

In either example, it means that you're going off of an appearance which can both be imitated and altered in-game (a very IC process, as opposed to the name over their head which is OOC). If Eary was later in his Combat gear, no one would recognize him any easier due to the above description, because it is different (thus not metagamey, really).

If you didn't accompany the post by a name, only people who recognize the appearance would know it was him, which goes for just about any kind of 'description'. People who know the character will recognize them IG (OOC or IC) no matter how you go about it, so the trick is simply to give them a bit less ammunition (such as omitting the name so characters need to try and work off their appearance).

Fail to see anything Metagamey about that at all, really.

Quote:

Fail to see anything Metagamey about that at all, really.

Not what I said. And I will quote myself to reply to that.

BlackDahlya wrote:

EDIT: The name won't be metagamed, but I am not sure it would be "good sportsmanship" of the player that gave the "description". You are using of an OOC means to make something IC, and we all know that in the server we prefer IC to stay IC and OOC to stay OOC.

i think the screenshot is an ooc solution to a very ooc problem. from my experience 9 times out of 10, the people doing the spying and making the reports are the least likely to metagame, and are the ones accused of it the most.

The problem is, its so easy to cry meta and to say, "provide evidence". On one occassion, I had someone asking how my house knew they were a Vhaerunite, resulting in about a half hour conversation, when I knew my alt had sat with them, having a conversation about Vhaerun, as well as about four other members of my house having seen them a it. Did I take a screenshot? Nope, because I wasnt actually hidden at the time.

If we place the burden of proof on the spy, it basically means you have to record your entire time on Amia. We have whole groups of people who are quite frankly, abyssmal at kepping secrets. People who say, you must have metagamed us, because we -always- use shapechange scrolls (I thank my stars we had a screenshot for that one). The one time you slip up as a spy, you're screwed. But what about all those false accusations? What happens to the people who constantly make your life a pain by crying meta every time something doesnt go their way? Isnt that just as bad?

Basically, if you play a drow, dont whine about being metad by surfacers, or by other drow unless you are emoting altering your voice and are completely covered head to toe. If you're on the surface, and not recognised by Ultrinnan drow, you're as much fair game to us as Lolthites are to the surfacers. The exact same conditions apply, and worrying about whether we recognise you or not is inconsequential. If we don't recognise you, that's just as damning.

Hey Didi

Its a pity we don't often move in the same circles. You Ultrinnan Drow are so isolated and when I do get to interact with my characters, its usually hostile.

That aside, I've seen in one instance, one of your people walk up to a Vhaerunian and start questioning him at length in Underport. Its almost as if your people think you're guards in Underport when you have no jurisdiction there. Its a bit like me going to Ultrinnan and questioning you for being a heretic Llothite because you don't follow Ghaunaduar. Completely unrealistic.

Personally, I don't think any non-Llothite drow should stand for that nonesense and in my view, if some Llothite starts questioning whether or not you're a Llothite in Underport, just smack them in the face. Usually solves the problem quickly as the guards will break it up (any PvP beyond the initial violence would be metagaming).

I think the trouble stems from people not wanting to be classified as heretics by spider kissers when really, you just show em whose boss and smack them hard enough, they leave you alone.

Case in point, Driarry got done over at the lower levels by the spider kissers. So in return, when a few levels later she could, she simply bashed them all hard. They left her alone after that.

The spying bit might work, if you don't wanna be found out but there's a simple solution to people spying on your faction, bash em. seriously, they typically leave you alone once you've put them in their place.

So what if they metagame, it won't matter when, after they reveal their hidden knowledge about who you really are, you smack them 6 foot under.

soundofastream wrote:

Hey Didi

Its a pity we don't often move in the same circles. You Ultrinnan Drow are so isolated and when I do get to interact with my characters, its usually hostile.

That aside, I've seen in one instance, one of your people walk up to a Vhaerunian and start questioning him at length in Underport. Its almost as if your people think you're guards in Underport when you have no jurisdiction there. Its a bit like me going to Ultrinnan and questioning you for being a heretic Llothite because you don't follow Ghaunaduar. Completely unrealistic.

Personally, I don't think any non-Llothite drow should stand for that nonesense and in my view, if some Llothite starts questioning whether or not you're a Llothite in Underport, just smack them in the face. Usually solves the problem quickly as the guards will break it up (any PvP beyond the initial violence would be metagaming).

I think the trouble stems from people not wanting to be classified as heretics by spider kissers when really, you just show em whose boss and smack them hard enough, they leave you alone.

Case in point, Driarry got done over at the lower levels by the spider kissers. So in return, when a few levels later she could, she simply bashed them all hard. They left her alone after that.

The spying bit might work, if you don't wanna be found out but there's a simple solution to people spying on your faction, bash em. seriously, they typically leave you alone once you've put them in their place.

So what if they metagame, it won't matter when, after they reveal their hidden knowledge about who you really are, you smack them 6 foot under.

Correct me If I am wrong, but are you trying to say that to solve metagming PvP is the solution.

That is completely misguided if that is what you are saying.

Metagaming is a serious problem, it can ruin character's, entire factions, it changes the path a player wanted to take for a character. More often than not a metagamed instance can mean only one thing for those whose entire character concept is based around secret's. That would be perma death.

PvP will not stop this, and the idea that PvP will make someone back off is completely unrealistic. It infact gives meaning to see your character destroyed.

Even when not talking about metagaming and in the simple terms of spieing, a good spy is not seen an even better spy is seen but not known, how do you intend to bash someone about that you do not know about.
More importantly how do you expect them not to smack you right on back.

I know alot of spies, I've based my main characters RP around it from the very start. The time and effort it takes to be gather information is alot, you can spend half a day waiting in one spot, because you know this is the spot a meeting is to take place but you do not know the time. I also know alot of people these days screenshot meeting's, or make personal note of key details on the topic.

A thing mentioned in this topic over and over is the people that cry fake metagame, they are worse than those that commit metagaming. They cause OOC problems because there own arrogance makes them believe they have not been spied on. From experiance these are also the people more likely to metagame a situation than any other player.

However the end truth is one many would not like to believe, amia has alot of metagamer's more than the server populace would like to believe. Be it minor metagaming of names, or majour metagming of a characters religion, his work, meeting spots. The sad truth is there is little we can do to stop it from happening, and I have yet to see a punishment that really effects the metagamer.

I believe that metagamers should face perma death of there characters, not all just the one that benifited from the metagame, and only in extreme cases where factions are brought to the brink of being destroyed.

Regards
Craig

ah exactly! Jest bash 'em! Tha's my philosophy!

Give 'em a damn good flogging and they'll soon learn not to metagame OR spy on yer again. *nods sagely*

So sayeth the wise words of a true sage.

How do you bash someone who is spying on you? Weel laddy, if yer see em, ye bash em and if yer don't see 'em, they'll likely send folks after ye, so ye bash them instead and work yer way back up tha' chain.

How do you intend not for them to bash you right back? Well for starters, ye have bigger scarier friends than they have. You have far more allies than they have, you have the biggest meanest characters ye can build and ye bash em. *grin*

Don't believe me? Just ask Darthion on the philosophy, works for him too. *giggle*

How to stop metagaming? Bash em. How to stop someone spying on you, wait till they send in their flunkies and bash them too.

The trend here seems to be "Most metagame so we need to adjust to it",
but personally i belive it should be the other way around.
My impression after playing drow for so long is that many players don't approve of something 'bad' happening to their char.
For the most part many seem to want taking on the drow, but on the odd occasion the drow gets upper hand it all turns sour.
In every race, faction or city there are bad seeds,
but in defence of most drow players i like to think they have valid and liable reasons for what they do.

Maybe try to consider the opposing player who may have done alot of work to set up some rp.
And the false name above the head combined with missleading Bios would make hell for faction leaders.

Like Iron mentions, Good sportmanship should do us all some good.

(Sorry, Dri, if i sidelined your topic to much!)

You are joking right... Please tell me your joking..

Mmhmm...course I am, you take every word I say as gospel? I should hope not!

Basically, the answer is B without a screen shot. That's my choice though, I find, its not always possible to describe someone whose just a pixel on a screen very well like someone else said.

Trouble is, you've got a group of factions in Ultrinnan who seem to think that the Underdark belongs only to them because they're the majority. Which, in turn, makes it impossible for other factions to start up in Underport because of this ultra-good spy network naref has set up and thus life in the minority camp becomes tedious. How many times have I had my characters beaten, sacrificed, stabbed, mugged or otherwise their bodies tortured or mutilated in the Underdark?

The answer is too many times. All because the character isn't a Llothite and comes from Underport and isn't epic yet. So forgive me for the cynicism but I found the best way to deal with Llothite spies is to simply get stronger than them and bash them silly till they go away and pick on someone else.

Do I accuse them of metagaming? well, the fact is, if the character isn't from Ultrinnan, typically, I find I get attacked by citizens of Ultrinnan if I happen to be anywhere in the Underdark and normally, stupidly outnumbered because, lets face it, there aren't too many UP characters. If you're drow from Underport, they instantly think you're a Vhaerunite and will do all they can to 'find you out' as a heretic. Its kind of metagamey to assume so much but there you go.

I found the only solution is to get stronger and bash them until they go pick on some surfacers or each other.

Quote:

If you're drow from Underport, they instantly think you're a Vhaerunite and will do all they can to 'find you out' as a heretic. Its kind of metagamey to assume so much but there you go.

I'd say this is the opposite of metagaming, really.
IC profiling, is more accurate.
To use a personal example; a character of mine has an enemy that is a follower of Cyric. If she hears about anyone Cyric-y that even so much as matches only the gender, she immediately assumes that this one individual she knows is the culprit, whether I as a player know that it is or not. That's not metagaming because my character is using her IC knowledge, not OOC knowledge. What she knows is this individual does stuff like that, and she thus profiles him for anything similar or related unless something doesn't match her paradigm of him or his "style".

It is not unreasonable to assume, then, that every drow would think that a drow that chooses to live among Mind Flayers rather than in the super sacred, holy city of Ultrinnan is a heretic, or otherwise has something to hide, or hell.. maybe they don't even actually believe they are heretics, they just want to make life hell for those drow because if they "prove" someone is a heretic, that could mean a promotion for them. That's IC knowledge and profiling.

Yes, profiling sucks and is unfair, but it isn't intrinsically metagaming.

Mind you, I don't mean this as an attack at you, soundofastream. I've been reading this a lot from a number of people in various threats - yours just happens to be the one I finally respond to about it.

Like to appoligize for my behavoir on this thread, those who have had access to all the forums I was refered to may understand why, James I have nothing against you, but obviously it was actually just written wrong on the original post that looks as i it sparked this thread and hopefully will no longer be labled as a complete description. instead as a annoying drow shadowdancer.

and as I have said before I would prefer to have screenshots proving what I did hear so problems could be sorted out in mere minutes.

To clear it up, I was speaking in general and not against anyone or specific post. And yes i exaggerate, Craig.

My personal approach is i'd rather see metagaming cause less problems, not more.
And we're not blessed with only good players among the drow, just like anywhere else. Some just has to cheat oocly to get their way icly,
but Naref and the majority of drow would cheat only through roleplay and ic-gained information :p

If you guys want to discuss metagaming, especifically, there is a thread started by soundofastream on Mar 19, 2008. It's the most recent that I can find about it: Metagaming: The good, the bad and the ugly...

Now, some clarifications about this thread I started:

Yes, the topic is correlated to cries of metagaming; but metagaming is not the discussion here; rather, the discussion is meant to try finding a way to eliminate or decrease it ~in this specific situation~. See the topic's title and/or the main post.

No, I am not arguing the legitimacy of Naref's spying skills; or any other spy character's skills; or any criminal/spied upon character that thinks there is no way to know ever who s/he is.

No, we are not talking about who's most likely to metagame: Drow x Surfacers; or Spy x Spied Upon; or Guards x Wanted Criminals; or Good Guys x Bad Guys, etcetera.

No, I am not trying to defend my ex-faction here or complain how things were handled back then. This is not the point of this thread. I am done and over my faction and anything related to it, and I brought up this thread because I saw a DM post on one of the forums I have access using of Method A. Then I reminded another DM complaining about Method A on the VDVM's thread, thus thinking I should post about this difference of "management" of a specific situation.

Once again, we are not discussing specific factions, players/characters, cities/areas of the server, and how they suffer with possible metagaming.

I mentioned at the main post that the thread linked there is to be taken as an example of why I believe clarification is needed, since there a DM asked for Method B when a character used Method A. I linked the thread not to discuss the events happening ~there~.

Now, please. Back on focus. Back on topic.

Which should be the RULING, ~if possible~, on "Character Descriptions for Spying and Criminal Purposes"? Wouldn't it be ideal, when possible, to have this such ruling?

Why can't the whole staff have the same approach about the matter? Is it possible to try achieving that?

In my opinion, it's best if there is a consensus about this kind of RP.

Especially when a DM reprimands a player because he was using of Method A, while another DM doesn't mind the same player using the same Method A. Or DMs reprimanding a player for doing that, while their own DM team uses of Method A.[/i]

Well, many things do have an effect on the topic at hand, Valk.. but I know what you're saying about focus.. however, it's hard to ask for a DM consensus, when there obviously isn't one. This seems to come down to another case where it deserves Disco's comments about how the players ask for specific rules about every outcome, in every situation, with every person.

I keep reiterating this: I think it will help everyone if they just communicate about it OOCly. Everything IC has a tad of OOC whether you like it or not and to describe a character well (unless they are well-emoted or definitively black like Yossarin) you should ask the player. If the player is a bad sport, then it's up to you to decide what you do. Don't spy on them anymore, report it to a DM, etc etc... I think it's the best option to Tell a player you have a description of them or have been watching them regardless of which method you use. Try to be the bigger person.

*shrug* One can always intentionally put inaccurate & misleading info in their bio.

And I agree it would be awesome to be able to change your floaty name, as Gravemaskin noted earlier. I have sometimes thought about naming a new character other than a standard name to alleviate some of the issues that arise. I would love all my Goblins to have the floaty text say "Goblin."

I'm not exactly talking about metagaming. Well, maybe I sort of am, but not in the sense many seem to think.

I'm talking about things like the person never without helmet: how many casual acquaintances of said char do you think know and remember this little fact about the character? Personally, I hardly pay attention to the models at all, I just watch the chatlog. Or perhaps they do know this very well. In fact, it might be so obvious to them that they forget to mention it specifically in a description they give to someone else.

There are so many honest mistakes that can happen along the way of several people exchanging information, that it's best not to resort to *Describes Char X*. Intentional metagaming and acquiring proof of spying is an altogether different matter, and I don't think a spy is required to prove that he managed to spy on you. Instead, he should describe just what he saw, so that when you perhaps burn your face with acid, change helmets or shave your heard bald and tattoo it, that new look isn't automatically assumed to be a part of the "description".

That's the problem I have with Approach A. It will always remain a supposedly accurate description, justifying instant identification. Even if you put on a hundrend kilograms, grow a beard and have your nose smashed out of shape. If my character was given the description of a newborn baby simply by saying *Describes Baby Joe*, I could come back after two IRL years once the baby's an adult, and think I have an accurate description that allows me to identify said Joe. I don't have to metagame, I simply might not know that the description I have is actually one of a baby.

IronAngel wrote:

That's the problem I have with Approach A. It will always remain a supposedly accurate description, justifying instant identification. Even if you put on a hundrend kilograms, grow a beard and have your nose smashed out of shape. If my character was given the description of a newborn baby simply by saying *Describes Baby Joe*, I could come back after two IRL years once the baby's an adult, and think I have an accurate description that allows me to identify said Joe. I don't have to metagame, I simply might not know that the description I have is actually one of a baby.

Ah!!

This is something I was trying to say. T_T

*Goes take a deep breath now*

But the underlying cause of all this is metagaming. You can't discuss one without the other and partly the problem is. Player X reads my characters' journal on the forums. Suddenly, she/he knows all about my character. When I ask how did he/she acquire said information in a tell, I get a reply saying "our intelligence network is just -that- good".

Now, for instance, in the case of Elithiel, NO character in game has she -ever- said her original name to, never. Not once. Ever. Yet they seemed to know it because they had such great intelligence network. I mean, come on! Seriously, Description A would never work in this situation.

B is better but even then, people take the pixels too literal. Example, my character typically wears a hood when not in battle but there's no hooded helms in game. So I've got no choice but to either emote it constantly OR get told to take my helmet off constantly. The fact that there are ONLY helmets and no hoods means the pixels are limited.

How would you describe said character? "wore a green and black helmet"?

Even in the situation you suggest, SoaS, this could well not be due to metagaming. Often it will be your closest allies who will accidentally use your name. Unless you are around in every possible situation where your character is discussed, there is no way of knowing whether something is metagaming, or a simple mistake. Like it or not, we all have to presume that people are innocent until proven guilty. They cant help spying on people who use your name, you CAN help putting private information out in public.

If people were simply more mature, none of this would be an issue. On many occassions I have seen someone who I recognise very well, but who is an enemy. On these occassions, before interacting with them, I will often send a tell, asking if they are in disguise.

If people did this, there would be no problem with using either method. Simply saying "I received a description of your character around three weeks ago. Would that still be valid now?"

This way, there would be no need for the whole "white hair, black skin" ambiguity, nor would there be a need for worries over metagaming either. Its a happy medium. Unfortunately, it still works on trust. When I've tried this in the past, Ive been asked such questions as "Who told you?" and been greeted with hostility. Since people have this impression that proof is needed, they then often use any excuse to demand this proof. Since I have no desire to say, actually, the woman you have been sleeping with for six months is working for me, Im totally stuck at this point.

If people worked together sensibly, there will be no issue. If people did not use vague month old descriptions to recognise people without a shadow of a doubt, we would be fine. And if people did not use accusations of metagaming and requests of evidence to protect their characters against perfectly legitimately gained information, we would be fine. As it is, its Fubared.

Regarding posting a characters personal info on the forums: I don't. I don't post stories in the PC Stories forum not only because I am lazy & suck at writing but also because any info posted is going to get metagamed. Sad fact.

NECRO THREAD AND NECRO BUMP

Since there are still issues about this...

Discuss away, if you guys think it will be productive. Keep mention of specific events away from here.

I've always been for requiring a character description in the bio, personally, but apparently bios are too hardcore for Amia, from what people tell me.

I'd love it if people actually wrote themselves a effin bio.

Even just a line that says

'This is a sturdy looking dwarf, with an eyepatch'

Anything but the lazymans
' '
'...'

or the snot nosed

'~RP~'
(as though I give a fuck about you. I just want to read an interesting description...)

Better than default descriptions, especially on subraces that don't really apply, i.e. the drow bio putting over elves, or the faerie bio that talks about how awesome halflings are.

Last edited by Carter on Mon, Mar 23 2009, 17:20 PM, edited 1 time in total.

I remember reading one saying that if you were a good RPer, you'd enjoy the character, and if you didn't enjoy the character, you were a crappy RPer and the player didn't like you. Ironically, he was a terrible RPer!

Anyway, it would be great, or if players were required to post a bio on the forums prior to level 10 or so, so that people who wanted at least a physical description could look it up there. But seriously, it isn't hard to have an idea of what your character at least looks like. If you don't know, you should certainly take the time to figure it out. I've found it can be pretty detrimental to RP if all you know about your own character is, "He's has blond hair".

Additionally, I'd like to add that I tend to pass rather bad judgment on people who write things like, "~RP~" in their bio. Not only does it make you look like a complete ass, but it also makes you look like you don't care enough about your own RP to even bother writing something out about your character, which makes me want to do just the opposite, and not RP with you. Generally, I'm far more apt to roleplay with a character with a description than with something that tells me to RP with them. I think a lot of people are probably that way.

EDIT because Cobbs posted:

The Cobbit wrote:

Better than default descriptions, especially on subraces that don't really apply, i.e. the drow bio putting over elves, or the faerie bio that talks about how awesome halflings are.

I fully agree with that, too. People with the default bios are, to me, even worse. All it shows me is that not only are you unwilling to write a bio, but you don't even care enough to delete the one that's there, or you weren't willing to do any research, or you aren't even creative enough to come up with something on your own. I know that's not always true, but it is more than it isn't, and even if it isn't for you, you still get stuck in the same category.

Wishful thinking, but the Amian world would be much better if people could be forced to write a bio with a description of their character. :P

But that's too bad if a PC is actually aging and they cannot change their bio for free, so, the PC could be 40 years old and still carry the same bio as when he was a teen. ^^;

EDIT: Typo.

I usually don't put a big bio on my characters at first, usually because I don't really know them that well, and it takes me a while playing him before I figure out who he is. But I do try to put in a small general descriptor, maybe the size of the default bio.

BlackDahlya wrote:

Wishful thinking, but the Amian world would be much better if people could be forced to write a bio with a description of their character.

But that's too bad if a PC is actually aging and they cannot change their bio for free, so, the PC could be 40 years old and still carry the same bio as when he was a teen. ^^;

EDIT: Typo.

if everyone made elves....like they should...we wouldn't have to worry about that

The Cobbit wrote:

I usually don't put a big bio on my characters at first, usually because I don't really know them that well, and it takes me a while playing him before I figure out who he is. But I do try to put in a small general descriptor, maybe the size of the default bio.

Which is quite excellent enough.

Anyway, maybe a system could be put in place (rules-wise, mind you, not with scripts and automated maintenance) that would allow players who aren't quite certain to inform the DM team about it prior to the creation of their character, and receive something akin to a voucher for a free bio change in the near future (say, two weeks), that would allow them to put a bio in when they have a better grasp on their character.

I swear, if I could get a biochange for free I'd write up one for isen faster than I could post this reply.

However, this isnt the case, and a bio change isnt the first thing on my list of things to spend DCs on.

If I see 'Looks like PC name here.'.. I usually outright ignore the post/notice and move on about it, save if it is a famous NPC or PC that is distinctive enough to be instantaneously recognized.

People argue that Bios can be used for metagaming. I've gone with super long ones, and super short ones. I don't think they makes or breaks someone's RP.

Also: Most of my PC's are wizards. Their brains are better than mine. They will know things and be better at math than I ever will be. That is why i use the in game journal, and note books to keep track of information they know. People they've met. Also a lot of pc's that are epic have the same outfit they wear most of the time. Either that or 11 outfits that look exactly alike that they send to cleaner once per tenday.

After being linked here and not having the time to read through the immense amount of discussion, I'd have to say A.

People don't give you enough details of their characters, and even if you do you have to ask, so there is no recognition when someone finds you.
Does one, for example, ask for a detailed description of every PC they met, just in case they may have been described to you / you may need to describe them later?

And then there are those people who refuse to describe their characters ...
"Exactly the same size and build as every other elf, with the most common tone of black skin and the same face and hairstyle as the following huge list" doesn't quite cut it.

I like those odd descriptions that are poems or something, I'd not want to see them go.

Character's Descriptions for Criminal and Spying Purposes

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