AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

Nekhy wrote:

I find it incredible people with a GS available would leave the house without at least a single casting as an emergency spell. It's almost always needed at some point, without a summon. It's a lifesaver, just what it should be.

Always have two.

Sometimes three!

And a wizard should for RP reasons always carry a Stilled and Silent one! >.>

*has 3 extendeds on Malice*

With the exception of the first time I got it, just to test it out, every single time I have cast GS has been an emergency and I have some pretty good Concentration so it usually works, but the slightest bit of lag ends in a Wizard shaped splat on the ground. Tell me how I am supposed to unsummon my Familiar, my Epic Summon/Summon IX/Planar and release my Dominate and then cast GS while I'm being hit by something? As already mentioned by someone else, if the Concentration check fails it's respawn time. Let's assume I can unsummon/release three associates and cast GS in one Round, I then have to stand around and wait for the critters to despawn, then wait until I can rest again (during which time there's a possibility that if I move or someone else comes along I'll get another spawn on top of me) before I can continue on. If I'm in a party, there's a good chance that half of them are going to die when I unsummon my Epic Summon. Alternatively, I can just cast GS as usual and get killed anyway because I've gone into Invis. (which is, incidentally, from a forbidden school for some people) in front of something that's already hitting me.

Yay! We've stopped those lazy buggers from standing around and doing nothing... and we've stopped everyone else from surviving emergencies.

Quote:

Also, setting it to rounds/level doesn't fix much.

Extended Rounds/level = 60 rounds. There are 180 rounds in a rest. So that's what, four level 9 spell slots.
EDIT ; Sorry, three.

I doubt whether too many people would sacrifice that many level 9 spellslots... then again, if they usually stand around doing nothing while their EDK fights they probably would. What's wrong with a set duration of three rounds then? 18 Seconds is usually ample time to run to a safer spot and get back into the fight and if you're going to waste Level 9 spellslots for it then you have 36 seconds leeway. People can't run to the Epic shops in GS then? Boo hoo. Now Mages are in the same position as all the other classes that have to work for access to the shop. It is far greater harm to take away a class' most important defensive tool altogether than to stop someone from cheesing their way to a shop.

I reached the Epic shops using only standard Invis and hastes to get past the Mages. Any decent Rogue or SD can get there too. And guess what - a Dwarven Defender with decent gear can waltz right through by himself.

Nerfing GS isn't the issue, nor should it happen. Cheap combos are the issue, and it's being dealt with alright. GS works fine. If you are unable to work as a mage without both an epic summon out and GS running, it'll be a good training for, you know, actually being involved in a situation and learning ways to get out of it.

Sokar has a point though.. having a familiar, a summon and a dominated monster out and needing GS sounds like a pain. I had opted to make casting of GS just unsummon the minions, but now it's done already.. we'll see.

I have 5 years of practice and I still die often.

wait a tick... does having a level 28 familiar count towards your 'over level 23' limit?

I do believe it's only the ones you receive after you've reached level 23 and beyond. So any spell you got before those levels (basically any non epic) are not in the same boat.

ok, good to hear.

It's probably about familiars not being summons in the same mechanical sense. They don't fill the Summon slot in which you can only have one thing.

The one thing I just don't get is why not just make GS require a spell component and charge like 5-10k for, it? The cost would be a big enough hit to monetary gains that it would encourage the use of invis and thus give you that much wanted danger and all without putting in this stupid nerf.

Because it accomplishes notihng. We have components for timestop and IGMS and there's no problem with mages using it as often as they want to.

*looks at 55,291,295 GP*

...Yeah. 10-15k a pop is really going to phase me and my fellow magi com padre's.

Perhaps GS can be renamed Greater Spending, and will deduct 100gp every second its up, simulating making a wall of money so the monsters are blinded by the reflecting light and distracted by the glittering gold so they dont attack you?

this would make it hit the pocketbooks of mages, while allowing GS to still be used ;p

^ ^ ^ Stealth brag post. Seems to be a trend lately.

Point being: Mages can make money really easy. Components try to add the hassle of needing it, but in the end it doesn't work. The only viable way is if they were loot drops and you had to buy them off players, but I think that would be terrible for the wobbly player economy.

Was totally a stealthbrag, but, had to make the point in its true size somehow.

Either you make it expensive, and the people who need it can't afford it, or you make it cheap and the status quo remains.

75k then, make it so that it nerfs any monetary gains from runs and there you go no point in using GS in PVE because you can't afford it to level and it makes no sense for cash runs.

And still useable for other circumstances there by clearing up the no danger issues in PVE. As it would be ludicrous to want to use it for PVE.

Plus then theres no real issue of a spell change just a tax on it. :wink:

Some people still need GS both as an escape tactic and in some parties where they just wanna buff their com padre's (as in fellow PCs)

Not to mention 75k is alot to fork out every single rest if you're not some epic mage or bloody good with trade.

Amia prefers not to gank the little guy too much unless they have to.

To add a post;

Also, it would need to cost at least 250K per pop if you want it to be Cost > Earning / Run.

A single Spires run can net you around 250K if you're somewhat average on luck and you're not sharing your loot with anyone other than your summon.

Ron 'BrainSplitter' wrote:

To add a post;

Also, it would need to cost at least 250K per pop if you want it to be Cost > Earning / Run.

A single Spires run can net you around 250K if you're somewhat average on luck and you're not sharing your loot with anyone other than your summon.

Sir I must say that that is utter bull, Back when gate was 5k I would solo spires and that was only somewhat cost effective.

Plus GS now sucks for escaping as you have to unsummon and release every thing befor hand, so you're dead either way. And buffers don't even need GS as it is.

I would rather a costly GS in full glory then some two bit rip off for free.

Do it with a Cleric Buffed Prismatic Dragon. You're assuming that I'm only speaking from the Arcane PoV, when the Clerical one also comes into play.

Also; the GS causes Invis is probably an oversight and easily fixed. Buffers who buff everyone else, however, do need GS if they can't fight on their own. Else, the AI will meta their AC like mad (in which case they just hit GS anyway)

Oh silly me forgetting about the poor buffers they have so many problems.
:roll:

Admit it GS after this past update is crap. Common say it with me C-R-A-P.

This version of GS is a mockery and serves no point but to eliminate GS as an even moderately good choice to take up a spell slot.

Quote:

Ron 'BrainSplitter' wrote:
To add a post;

Also, it would need to cost at least 250K per pop if you want it to be Cost > Earning / Run.

A single Spires run can net you around 250K if you're somewhat average on luck and you're not sharing your loot with anyone other than your summon.

Sir I must say that that is utter bull, Back when gate was 5k I would solo spires and that was only somewhat cost effective.

No hes right you'll easily make that sort of money with a run through the Spires. EDK, Familiar and dominate monster and your rolling in the doe.

Nex_addo wrote:

Quote:

Ron 'BrainSplitter' wrote:
To add a post;

Also, it would need to cost at least 250K per pop if you want it to be Cost > Earning / Run.

A single Spires run can net you around 250K if you're somewhat average on luck and you're not sharing your loot with anyone other than your summon.

Sir I must say that that is utter bull, Back when gate was 5k I would solo spires and that was only somewhat cost effective.

No hes right you'll easily make that sort of money with a run through the Spires. EDK, Familiar and dominate monster and your rolling in the doe.

I must have run the spires damn near a thousand times, leveling and releveling my sorcerer and I can tell you this for sure it is not a 250k run.

it just isn't and if you're taking say 75-150 k from each of those runs then you would tend to use Invis instead wouldn't you?

Ron 'BrainSplitter' wrote:

Buffers who buff everyone else, however, do need GS if they can't fight on their own. Else, the AI will meta their AC like mad (in which case they just hit GS anyway)

I just thought I would quote this for emphasis. that also includes healer-clerics.

I've run it dozens of times when I was levelling Airais.

Buffed Frost Giant Chieftian + Azer + Familiar = Fast run, single rest, fast loot.

Constructive and civilly presented attempts to suggest minor tweaks are for more efficient than saying, and I quote;

The Great Equalizer wrote:

Admit it GS after this past update is crap. Common say it with me C-R-A-P.

This version of GS is a mockery and serves no point but to eliminate GS as an even moderately good choice to take up a spell slot.

GS could probably be easily tweaked so that casting it dismisses summons but gives you proper GS, making it a simple opposite-counter effect and returning it to its normal state of usefulness as an escape measure.

Depends on loot drops.

My average wasn't 250k tho.
Usually fluxuated between 80-330k. It usually stayed about the 120 average tho for a real full solo run.

Hum.

Granted, I got lucky alot with loot rolls, so it may be somewhat skewed. Just luck of the draw (used to drive Ruce -nuts-, teehee).

That said. High cost is all well and good. But let's not gank the guy who isn't rich and whose main hunting is done by fighting lesser-gold granting creatures such as Beastmen or Barbarians.

Ron 'BrainSplitter' wrote:

GS could probably be easily tweaked so that casting it dismisses summons but gives you proper GS, making it a simple opposite-counter effect and returning it to its normal state of usefulness as an escape measure.

Hmmm, now that is an idea that I could get behind, proper dismiss to GS and I would except it as a reasonable (if still unliked) nerf.

The Great Equalizer wrote:

Ron 'BrainSplitter' wrote:

GS could probably be easily tweaked so that casting it dismisses summons but gives you proper GS, making it a simple opposite-counter effect and returning it to its normal state of usefulness as an escape measure.

Hmmm, now that is an idea that I could get behind, proper dismiss to GS and I would except it as a reasonable (if still unliked) nerf.

Easier done than said.

I already said I'd make an option like that?

DM Disco wrote:

I already said I'd make an option like that?

Might be best to have it as the default one.

Anyways we seemed to have reached conclusion. Non wank-while-playing strategies have been discussed. Autounsummon has been found as a needed addition to the change and all.

Well if people have useful things to add let them, but i defintely am expecting a lock sooner than later due to flaming.

Bobo_Underhill wrote:

I just thought I would quote this for emphasis. that also includes healer-clerics.

Whats a healer cleric? I think Ave has one, she never plays. Why would a cleric waist there slots on healing when they have a few dozen healing potions...

Xenos wrote:

Bobo_Underhill wrote:

I just thought I would quote this for emphasis. that also includes healer-clerics.

Whats a healer cleric? I think Ave has one, she never plays. Why would a cleric waist there slots on healing when they have a few dozen healing potions...

Because that is what the character does.

The Great Equalizer wrote:

I must have run the spires damn near a thousand times, leveling and releveling my sorcerer and I can tell you this for sure it is not a 250k run.

Actually, Nasher Shadowflame I ran the giants, including the mountainside and the Spires, and I personally earned well above 250k on that run. Can't speak for the guy who plays Nasher, but I'm fairly sure he made enough aswell.

On a regular run, though, I get around 100-150k.

Oh, and I really don't have anything to add to this thread, I just wanted to point out what a few others already have... That making gold is easy, but also, in my oppinion, boring as hell.

I must say that despite being cut that I just got my first character EDK, only to die in Spires ten minutes later, I support this nerf (although I still wonder what wizard would invent a spell, and then make it fail should a creature of certain power be called or summons by the caster).

EDK plus GS is a pretty cheap combo, especially considering when you are in danger you just haste, summon, GS, buff summon, let it kill.

And it REALLY hurt to support this.

So, when I'm level 23+ my Familiar ans Summon IX are unaffected by this? It's only EDK, Mummy Dust, Dominates and Gate?

Sokar Rostau wrote:

So, when I'm level 23+ my Familiar ans Summon IX are unaffected by this? It's only EDK, Mummy Dust, Dominates and Gate?

Correctamundo. Summon Creature IX has HD 19, last I checked, so you're fine.

I don't really care then. My EDK is for RP purposes (something I doubt many other people with the feat can claim... ). Carry on.

Xenos wrote:

Bobo_Underhill wrote:

I just thought I would quote this for emphasis. that also includes healer-clerics.

Whats a healer cleric? I think Ave has one, she never plays. Why would a cleric waist there slots on healing when they have a few dozen healing potions...

Because being able to cast more or less 40heals/mass heals and have a heal skill nearing 100 is fun

Epic Conjuration's Mass Heal is rather amusing in undeady places. The Lord Giveth(to me), The Lord Taketh Away(from you).

Since when do Clerics need to prepare any healing spells? Last I checked they were all spontaneous casts.

Sokar Rostau wrote:

Since when do Clerics need to prepare any healing spells? Last I checked they were all spontaneous casts.

Not Heal, Mass Heal or Greater Restoration

heal circle also isn't spontanious i think...

drymouth wrote:

heal circle also isn't spontanious i think...

Yeah. Forgot that one.

Cure Spells are spontaneous, Heal Spell's aren't.

e.g. Cure Serious Wounds is spontaneous, Mass Heal is not.[/i]

I've never gotten a Cleric high enough to cast them...

I found this thread and I'm wondering if it somehow applies to Black Blade of Disaster. It's a 9th lvl spell, so I wouldn't think so, and yet when my 20th lvl mage cast BBoD, it removed his GS. And when he tried to recast GS, it dispelled BBoD.

What's that about? What does a lvl 23 spell mean?

If the monster is above level 23, then GS gets dropped.

edit: And for the BBod you need to concentrate, in other words, not do anything else safe for walking.

Last edited by Tacka on Sat, Jun 13 2009, 19:08 PM, edited 1 time in total.

Dervish wrote:

I found this thread and I'm wondering if it somehow applies to Black Blade of Disaster. It's a 9th lvl spell, so I wouldn't think so, and yet when my 20th lvl mage cast BBoD, it removed his GS. And when he tried to recast GS, it dispelled BBoD.

What's that about? What does a lvl 23 spell mean?

Never mind.

Level 23 Summons and GS.

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