AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

camthrax wrote:

(I was never the greatest build/Caster player anyway) I had to use so many Healing pots on my dragon, It never seemed worth it.

And thats part of it, we are no all super builders who can slaughter all moving things while tied up and blind folded.

People will always miss-use things, but nerfing doesn't solve the problem it just leads to them miss-using something else.

And any one who thinks that nerfing GS will reduce soloing is suffering from delusions.

Why wasn't it changed to rounds per level? That is a far, far, better way to deal with the issue, hell, doing this and adding a component woiuld be even better. As it stands people are being punished for using their Familiars (and few enough people have them out to begin with), not just their Epic Dragon? Kkthxbai pwnmachines.

Invisibility simply does not allow a mage to escape imminent death, reposition and then get back into the fight. Another way to deal with it would have been to cut the duration drastically - to 5 Rounds - when an EDK is summoned.

The Great Equalizer wrote:

And any one who thinks that nerfing GS will reduce soloing is suffering from delusions.

Didi wrote:

The nerf was never about stopping soloing. It was about soloing WITHOUT RISK.

Thankyou Bobo. Was about to do that myself.

However, I do believe the point that He is trying to get across is, There was a risk. The traps, the AoE's, the other goodies that areas have. That, and the fact that whenever I seem to use GS (on my level 18 character) He instantly gets spotted and slaughtered.

AoE's and Traps are the bane of casters (unless we're reffering to Paladhooms, which, I am not.) Sure, One trap may not do much. But, A few may have.

What I would have personally liked to have seen was seeing the nice areas More mage un-friendly. Throw down shedloads of anti-mage traps everywhere. This way, the "omg I hide behind GS/EDK/Gate/Necrothingy" Mages still need to think. If it's Solo'ing without risk, Don't remove the Solo, Add the Risk.

See, this is being applied to the High Epic areas. Just one of them, actually, as the rest lack traps excluding the chest in the Manor of Mourn.

Please, show me the traps in the areas that are used from levels 18 (assuming a sorcerer) - 26. Level 13 if you're a cleric.

GS + Gate = Zoom. Instant level.

Once you get to level 23 (or level 21 if you've played your levels right), you get free levelling to about 28 without ever touching the Abyss and still getting ace XP.

Also, for those a bit too oblivious to it; every single trap in the Abyss can be avoided by simply walking carefully. And those in the Gauntlet are so weak all you need is a Greater Stoneskin and Energy Buffer.

And still, once again, how does Traps affect this argument at all? That isn't even touched on in the slightest by the GS change. So a bit of a moot point.

I highly doubt Disco wants to modify every high level area to be dangerous to mages. That's alot of areas.

Also, setting it to rounds/level doesn't fix much.

Extended Rounds/level = 60 rounds. There are 180 rounds in a rest. So that's what, four level 9 spell slots.
EDIT ; Sorry, three.

Oh, and, Camthrax. To fix the GS bug;

Don't cast GS until the enemy turns and looks at you. -Then- cast it. That way they've percieved you and the faction recognizes you as GS'd. Sometimes it screws up. Not sure if this applies to dAI, but it does to jAI.

Also, never cast GS with an Invisibility or Concealment granting spell.

Ron 'BrainSplitter' wrote:

And still, once again, how does Traps affect this argument at all? That isn't even touched on in the slightest by the GS change. So a bit of a moot point.

Didi wrote:

The nerf was never about stopping soloing. It was about soloing WITHOUT RISK.

Traps.. Er. Hmm. I don't think Disco would enjoy this too much. However.

A trap that casts a special version of Bigby's Crushing. However, it rolls against whichever is highest of a characters Dex or Str. This (at least, as I see it,) Will be deadly against mages. However, any decent Meleer will have no problem in shrugging this off. What of that do you think? (I don't know if this is even possible, as I'm not exactly the greatest with the toolset/Whatever goes in to the module. I have no intentions of learning either. Kudos to those that did.)

Yes, I realize that Disco is probably not going to want to change every high level area to accommodate this. However, this could provide not only a bit of an extra thrill for all, but a better use for those trapping rogues of a higher level. Everyone wins. At least, that's how I see it.

EDIT: Perhaps some traps that are set off by the Greater sanctuary spell. Some really nasty ass ones. Again, I'm not the smart guy with the toolset.

Also, cheers, I know about the Invis thing, and it was Brog barbs that saw through it, Much to Winch's painfull annoyance. I'm not really fussed either way. Then again, I get spawns seeing through his Invis spells as well.

My wizard can tank with her 77 AC and 426 HP while her dragon or planetar attacks. So this change won't hurt me.

khchen wrote:

My wizard can tank with her 77 AC and 426 HP while her dragon or planetar attacks. So this change won't hurt me. This totally isn't a stealth brag post, BTW. I'm just stating things very matter of factly by telling you my exact stats to back up my logic. Definitely not a stealth brag.

khchen wrote:

My wizard can tank with her 77 AC and 426 HP while her dragon or planetar attacks. So this change won't hurt me.

O.O That -so- wrong.. in many.. many.. ways..

khchen wrote:

My wizard can tank with her 77 AC and 426 HP while her dragon or planetar attacks. So this change won't hurt me. This totally isn't a stealth brag post, BTW. I'm just stating things very matter of factly by telling you my exact stats to back up my logic. Definitely not a stealth brag. Of course, My build is exactly like everyone elses. So of course they aren't going to be effected by this, because My build is awesome, thus everyone elses must be. Never mind the frail old wizard in the corner who -doesn't- have my stats, Pssh, no, he doesn't count.

khchen wrote:

My wizard can tank with her 77 AC and 426 HP while her dragon or planetar attacks. So this change won't hurt me.

QTBPOTCC

(Quote to be part of the cool crowd)

*brings the attention to the above mentioned trap I thought of to be awesomely cool and leet* Any thoughts?

Jesus.. i need to do a rebuild and take some heavy armor with No Spell Failure. Just change it to look like Robes, yay for extra 9 AC, or 8.. whatever Full Plate has.

khchen wrote:

My wizard can tank with her 77 AC and 426 HP while her dragon or planetar attacks. So this change won't hurt me.

id be interested in knowing that wizzie's stats...

and how many paladin levels she has.

Mages can still survive with Low AC and HP. Imp Inv, engergy buffer, premonition... Only very few mobs have TS. Mages are still among top classes in PVP, at least vs warriors. Domination monster doesn't break invisibility. When in a party, they lost nothing. Sanc is still useful when passing dangerous areas or retreat.

Zanthair wrote:

khchen wrote:

My wizard can tank with her 77 AC and 426 HP while her dragon or planetar attacks. So this change won't hurt me.

id be interested in knowing that wizzie's stats...

and how many paladin levels she has.

I prefer the 'I am suspecting a Spell DC of somewhere in the 20's. >.>

I've considered doing the 'Only 19 base Int' wizard build. But it frankly doesn't nessicarily appeal to me for my current characters. Maybe later.

16 con with maxxed Hp rolls can hit that number or close with 100% wizard.
Base hp= 4, +3hp from con +1 Toughness. = 240. Add +12 con from gear = 6x30 = 180 + 240 = 420 at 30, then add an epic toughness for 440.

However, not everyone wishes to Max rolls. I for one, Haven't bothered, especially seeing as how many skill points, feats, and spells I have to bother with as a Wizard.

Ah well, at least I know I can resist his spells with relative ease. :twisted:

Hrm. Anyway, anyone out there willing to give me a hand working on those scripts for those traps? Even 2 of those in each epicish area would be enough to really smart off GS'ers.

khchen wrote:

Mages can still survive with Low AC and HP. Imp Inv, engergy buffer, premonition... Only very few mobs have TS. Mages are still among top classes in PVP, at least vs warriors. Domination monster doesn't break invisibility. When in a party, they lost nothing. Sanc is still useful when passing dangerous areas or retreat.

She is a RP build with 29 level of wizard, three epic spell focus feats and acts as a crafter.

No-one wants to help me with those traps? Even people that aren't "official" amian scripters. Of course, that reduces the chance of them actually being added to the Module, but it'd be a heck of a lot more fun and interesting than the GS nerf.

um.

I dont like those traps?

khchen wrote:

Mages can still survive with Low AC and HP. Imp Inv, engergy buffer, premonition... Only very few mobs have TS. Mages are still among top classes in PVP, at least vs warriors. Domination monster doesn't break invisibility. When in a party, they lost nothing. Sanc is still useful when passing dangerous areas or retreat.

She is a RP build with 29 level of wizard, three epic spell focus feats and acts as a crafter.

I call bullshit. Your "RP build" Wizard has more HP and AC than my lvl 29 WM, she tops out at 60 AC with Haste and Improved Expertise. My level 22 Wizard has 21 AC and around 150 HP fully buffed. RP build my arse, that's a textbook power build.

Watch it and play nice.

Dwagin wrote:

16 con with maxxed Hp rolls can hit that number or close with 100% wizard.
Base hp= 4, +3hp from con +1 Toughness. = 240. Add +12 con from gear = 6x30 = 180 + 240 = 420 at 30, then add an epic toughness for 440.

*entirely non-stealth brag post* Planki, my gnome Wiz 30 got a rebuild and now has 530HP and Epic Damage Reduct III and wears that 5/- Pierce, Slash belt. AC? Why would anyone with MEstil's want to *avoid* being hit? Hell, I'd request a DC widget that shut off auto-miss on 1's if I could.

His DC's are absolute arse, but he's a bosskiller mage now, so that doesn't matter in the slightest.

He was originally a status mage - 40INT and the foci for Colour Spray, Dominate Monster, Control Undead, Sunburst, Fear, Thunderclap, never left home without a bundle of Neg Burst etc. etc. Much better for a party than a GS-jockey since in addition to providing a summon he'd be nerfing the spawn into the ground.

Anyway, I took him out mobkilling this morning, at which he is now pretty poor, and he still monkeystomped Brog, the Spires, and the first two areas of the Frozen Wastes before I had to leave for work. His Premonitions never dropped below 80 points remain, so it wasn't his Epic DR at work, even if it did stack with Premo, which it doesn't.

I didn't actually play that smart either: even with his miserable Dominate Monster DC he could have snagged a Spires Warrior and had two tanks rather than the big white toad. *edit* oh, I before I forget, I took off my CON gear to drop my HP around 100 under the toad's. AC was 18.

What I do advise for mages is to invest in the DR items: they are applied first which extends the life of your Premonitions by a tonne.

Last edited by Pony on Tue, Nov 05 2019, 10:09 AM, edited 1 time in total.

Phearnun wrote:

I personally find it quite [censored] not to get rebuilds for it, not that my characters would need them, but I can imagine a lot of other gs-casters would that also focused on the EDK with epic conjuration.

Could we at least get imp. invis instead of just regular?

imp invis would give clerics without trickery domain access to imp invisibility then.

Last edited by Pony on Tue, Nov 05 2019, 10:09 AM, edited 1 time in total.

Too bad there weren't another way, like ethereal critters that attack GSers (not that it's etherialness anymore, but it's a thought) in certain areas, making it sometimes dangerous in places because they'd be 'closer planarly' or somesuch convoluted thing. Much like if a Dancer was HiPSing they could be attacked by things in the plane of shadow.

Kinda like how the One Ring works.

Phearnun wrote:

drymouth wrote:

Phearnun wrote:

I personally find it quite [censored] not to get rebuilds for it, not that my characters would need them, but I can imagine a lot of other gs-casters would that also focused on the EDK with epic conjuration.

Could we at least get imp. invis instead of just regular?

imp invis would give clerics without trickery domain access to imp invisibility then.

Dont think that is an powerful addition in comparison to the loss of the sactuary tweek.

Clerics didnt get screwed over by this at all. Any cleric who hides in GS next to their dragon is just being idle. Why should they get a bonus of a domain they didnt take for free?

It's funny that the focus is shifting on Clerics, when they are muchly favoured in melee compared to Mages. They wear plate, have Fort and Will as primary saves, they get their Armor and Deflection AC both up to 5, freeing slots for gear and enchantments on armor and shield.. they get all their wicked AB buffs.. a buffed Cleric wins against most fighters head-on.

Imp. Invis is a powerful spell, one of the most highly sought. Giving that to a GSing Cleric would add one of the total of TWO spells that make Clerics cheaber-cheap. Those 2 are Imp. Invis and Haste.

Overall, both caster classes are really powerful. I don't see why people complain. GS STILL WORKS. Repeat that sentence a dozen times.

xordae wrote:

GS STILL WORKS. Repeat that sentence a dozen times.

Nah, i removed it from my slots completely useless spell now.

Wyjyn wrote:

Nah, i removed it from my slots completely useless spell now.

I hope that's a joke, because that's really not true.

Bobo_Underhill wrote:

Wyjyn wrote:

Nah, i removed it from my slots completely useless spell now.

I hope that's a joke, because that's really not true.

Possibly an act of rebellion on the part of some. Summons can still be utilized so epic spell focus conjuration is still useful it is just that the epic summons will remove the GS. At that point a caster has a couple options, 1) Stay in GS and buff stuff 2) cast the summon, buff it and pay attention to what is going on. I think what has been pulled off the shelf is the lack of skill needed to pull GS and then whip out an epic summon and wave it around.

How on earth do people get through the levels when you do NOT have GS in your spellbook, if they are so dependant on it now?

Or is there some secret supply of GS scrolls I am not aware of?

Just use the same tactics you used on lower levels; buff up tanks and summons, push the summons ahead of you and stay back. Don't chat on MSN, don't do your springclean, don't wank and don't do anything else than might hinder your focus on playing.

All this complaining really assures me that the summon/GS thing was way overpowered as it was.

Nekhy wrote:

All this complaining really assures me that the summon/GS thing was way overpowered as it was.

Ditto.

Invest in gear that grants CON, DR and perhaps even some AC. Stay hasted, keep Greater Stoneskin and Premonition running, cast Acid Sheath if you get in a sticky spot. My wizard doesn't use GS these days, and he does just fine. Monsters generally don't attack him, and he can outrun them or stop them when they do.

Dagesh wrote:

Possibly an act of rebellion on the part of some.

the only thing i ever used GS for was when your in a fight where your about to die, its a last ditch thing sometimes they disrupt your spell other times not..but if it succeeds your safe...now...nope just invis for you.

I was one of the people that agreed GS needed some dealing with, but not sure i wanted it killed completely at least relative to how i used it.

I am not upset really, just think the spell is next to useless now...on a pile of other spells with DCs too low to really affect anything.

Wyjyn wrote:

Dagesh wrote:

Possibly an act of rebellion on the part of some.

the only thing i ever used GS for was when your in a fight where your about to die, its a last ditch thing sometimes they disrupt your spell other times not..but if it succeeds your safe...now...nope just invis for you.

I was one of the people that agreed GS needed some dealing with, but not sure i wanted it killed completely at least relative to how i used it.

I am not upset really, just think the spell is next to useless now...on a pile of other spells with DCs too low to really affect anything.

Umm, you can use it to escape, but not to have your summon PWN while you run away in GS,

Uhm... the spell Greater Sanctuary was not changed in itself, as far as I agreed to a change. I would've vetoed a change into spell duration or something.

It works as an escape spell still. You can get past mobs still.

The only thing you can't do is to let go of the mouse and go AFK if you have a summon out and are on the hunting grounds.

GS now = invis who in their right mind after getting EDK would want an 8th level slot taking up by standard invis?

choice is empowered igms or invis...I'll take another IGMS thanks! hell im a diviner so i dont even get illusion spells to begin with and i still think it now sucks.

my understanding (which i learnt the hard way today!) is that if a level 23+ summon is out and you use GS it just casts normal invis on you...really the spell is now next to useless for me no other way to put it.

Well, I did see this once while up in DM land. A cleric summoned her dragon to fight while in GS. The dragon started doing his thing, and the mobs target-locked on the Cleric. Cleric casts GS again after taking a whop or two. For a moment, they look safe, heal... and then informed by thier comrades that they aren't really in GS, but invised, and that some of the spawns can still see invised stuff. Funnily enough the mobs listened to that advice and renewed thier assault on the cleric, killing her off.

So it did change a little. In order to escape you ahve to first unsummon, and then cast, otherwise you just invised yourself.

I find it incredible people with a GS available would leave the house without at least a single casting as an emergency spell. It's almost always needed at some point, without a summon. It's a lifesaver, just what it should be.

GS is still useful. Me, Qirlan and a rogue hin died on the way to the abyss shop today because of
A) No mindblank
B) I have chosen to stay in acidsheath/premonition combo, but it was simply too much damage from too much enemies to react -> my lesson from that: more DR equipment

I had a GS ready and no summon. Would I have used it right away, we three weren't forced to respawn.

Wyjyn wrote:

my understanding (which i learnt the hard way today!) is that if a level 23+ summon is out and you use GS it just casts normal invis on you...really the spell is now next to useless for me no other way to put it.

You are supposed to cast it when you don't have the summon out, duh. It's not hard to unsummon it.

Quote:

You are supposed to cast it when you don't have the summon out, duh. It's not hard to unsummon it.

Sometimes, when all around you are dying, it simply is too fast to do that. Not every player has 3dshooter reflexes.

I'm so glad I've casted GS... twice... in 5 years.

I have two extended GS on tap at all points as Veh... call me paranoid. :shock:

hendrack wrote:

Sometimes, when all around you are dying, it simply is too fast to do that. Not every player has 3dshooter reflexes.

lol i do actually, i used to play quake 2 all the time;D my reflexes are under the .2 of a second mark. When i want to pwn in a reflexed based game i do...but really.. I just liked the GS + unsummon dragon idea better because it suits my purpose for the spell..i agreed sure, but on the condition it was that not this invis crap.

This argument about skill, rings hollow for me i am afraid. NWN is a RP game, not a game of skill really - games of skill are like quake/starcraft and other assorted wcg games not this. No one on the development side should think "hey lets make this so it requires more skill". I like to try to emote when i fight etc, now i jsut have to concentrate that little bit more and RP that significant amount less.

Wyjyn wrote:

hendrack wrote:

Sometimes, when all around you are dying, it simply is too fast to do that. Not every player has 3dshooter reflexes.

lol i do actually, i used to play quake 2 all the time;D my reflexes are under the .2 of a second mark. When i want to pwn in a reflexed based game i do...but really.. I just liked the GS + unsummon dragon idea better because it suits my purpose for the spell..i agreed sure, but on the condition it was that not this invis crap.

This argument about skill, rings hollow for me i am afraid. NWN is a RP game, not a game of skill really - games of skill are like quake/starcraft and other assorted wcg games not this. No one on the development side should think "hey lets make this so it requires more skill". I like to try to emote when i fight etc, now i jsut have to concentrate that little bit more and RP that significant amount less.

Disco is working on making it possible to enable the GS=Unsummon behiaviour. All is good and well.

Quote:

lol i do actually, i used to play quake 2 all the time;D

I played the action quake 2 mod for years

Is there actually a shortcut for unsummoning?
edit: unsummoning at least is quickslottable iirc

Level 23 Summons and GS.

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