AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

I am not a good number cruncher at all, or a good builder, but teh claim that Amia fancies melee types is utter bull. I know, I only play thsoe because I am too stupid/impatient to make anything else. I am level 27 and I can only enter the Abyss with backup. I simply won't survive the first spawn without burning 5K on scrolls and potions. That's the reality for most people that don't take the "how to make a mage and rule" route.

Xenos wrote:

...
Make these areas inaccessable without a party!!

Reminds me of a certain area in Ragnarok Online where you couldn't enter unless you had a party of X people... pretty neat. No more "I solo. I get phat loot. I get rich. In your face, lewsers!"

Though I wouldn't like seeing that done to every hunting area... but maybe to the major ones, or to a new one (once we get module space for it).

Last edited by Silvarus on Mon, Feb 18 2008, 20:44 PM, edited 3 times in total.

Krin wrote:

Quote:

Xenos, no. Smile

And it has been abused in PvP enough to warrant change in my opinion too.

Checking the description of the mage classes you might note that there is nothing about being the easy road to godmode.

So? GS is the mages only real protection in PvP with everyone and their mother being able to see invis.

Have you noticed how many spells mages get besied the easy godmode route? Easy pwnage, anytime, especially since you can still get by the preparation-factor by preparing in GS, without lame summons though.

And yeah, Disco's right. Mages are still more powerful than meleers, always will be. Thats how it is supposed to be... but also unprepared mage is supposed to be dead meat, along with those who run out of spells and buffs. Short-term pwnage.

And items being geared for meleers is quite right as well. Mages don't really NEED magical items, but a tank with mundane equipment is, and should be, dead meat.

Mages need preparation and resting intervals, meleers need to watch for their equipment.

All is well and good.

Quote:

I am not a good number cruncher at all, or a good builder, but teh claim that Amia fancies melee types is utter bull. I know, I only play thsoe because I am too stupid/impatient to make anything else. I am level 27 and I can only enter the Abyss with backup. I simply won't survive the first spawn without burning 5K on scrolls and potions. That's the reality for most people that don't take the "how to make a mage and rule" route.

Yar, but you're not a good builder. I see melee builds soloing the Abyss and Spires all the time, and I meant -gear- on the server is favoring melee builds.

Of course gear on the server favours melee builds, because theyre the ones that cant buff themselves and so need it.

Dont bring PvP up when discussing this change, ive read again and again that PvP is not takin into factor when changes are made. Its only about PvM.

Now as far as PvM goes, can we get this changed?

Disco, if you dont want people soloing Actend, Abyss, and the Bosses, make it inaccessable with out a party, this would balance it for everyone, you wont be nerfing or targtiting any one group of players, and it wont result in hurt feelings and people crying like they are here. *cries, a little*

This change isnt needed if you can just make these parts of the server group only.

Quote:

Have you noticed how many spells mages get? Easy pwnage, anytime, especially since you can still get by the preparation-factor by preparing in GS, without lame summons.

And yeah, Disco's right. Mages are still more powerful than meleers, always will be. Thats how it is supposed to be... but also unprepared mage is supposed to be dead meat, along with those who run out of spells and buffs. Short-term pwnage.

Easy pwnage? You said yourself that you have one of those lame powerbuilds. High saves, high AC, etc.

A normal mage versus any good melee build without the GS and summons combo really only has one option for fighting them depending on the build. Low Str builds = Bigby then hope it works and flee back into GS.

Then what that happens, people complain about the Bigby spell.

For fighting dev critters it's the same thing, cast spell, flee into GS and run before they Whirlwind kill you, repeat.

But then when they do that, people complain about GS.

Last edited by Krin on Mon, Feb 18 2008, 20:49 PM, edited 1 time in total.

Quote:

Of course gear on the server favours melee builds, because theyre the ones that cant buff themselves and so need it.

Scrolls, potions, wands, items. Melee builds can buff themselves just fine.

EDIT: When I brought up the gear, I was pointing out the fact that mages don't gain much by being able to run around in GS with a summon while hunting.

Krin wrote:

Scrolls, potions, wands, items. Melee builds can buff themselves just fine.

Wasn't this done because of the PVM aspect?

Potions and some items, but scrolls and some wands aren't available to some pure-fighter type meleers. And even then, these are somewhat unreliable as they generally have shorter durations than those from mages. Lyle, versus a mage, will usually be fried before he can get a Dev-crit off.

Krin wrote:

Quote:

Have you noticed how many spells mages get? Easy pwnage, anytime, especially since you can still get by the preparation-factor by preparing in GS, without lame summons.

And yeah, Disco's right. Mages are still more powerful than meleers, always will be. Thats how it is supposed to be... but also unprepared mage is supposed to be dead meat, along with those who run out of spells and buffs. Short-term pwnage.

Easy pwnage? You said yourself that you have one of those lame powerbuilds. High saves, high AC, etc.

A normal mage versus any good melee build without the GS and summons combo really only has one option for fighting them depending on the build. Low Str builds = Bigby then hope it works and flee back into GS.

Then what that happens, people complain about the Bigby spell.

For fighting dev critters it's the same thing, cast spell, flee into GS and run before they Whirlwind kill you, repeat.

But then when they do that, people complain about GS.

Mages get high-DC instakill spells, uberhigh damage spells, damage reduction spells, AC spells, damage shields, paralyzing spells, mind spells, non-bullrush bigby, slow spells, AoE spells, Disjuctions, Invisibility, TimeStop and GS preparation most of all.

Quote:

Disco, if you dont want people soloing Actend, Abyss, and the Bosses, make it inaccessable with out a party

Take the abyss: what if another player wants to catch up? If one of the party dies and there is no raise scroll (I know it would be their own fault).

hendrack wrote:

Quote:

Disco, if you dont want people soloing Actend, Abyss, and the Bosses, make it inaccessable with out a party

Take the abyss: what if another player wants to catch up? If one of the party dies and there is no raise scroll (I know it would be their own fault).

Indeed, that just does not work. Nerfing godmode-abilities is the best choise, and this one was a rather mild and conservative one.

I'd done worse. ;P

Then you would need to go back for him, sence he might get killed by respawns anyway

Last edited by Krin on Mon, Feb 18 2008, 20:55 PM, edited 1 time in total.

Quote:

Mages get high-DC instakill spells, uberhigh damage spells, damage reduction spells, AC spells, damage shields, paralyzing spells, mind spells, non-bullrush bigby, slow spells, AoE spells, Disjuctions, Invisibility, and GS preparation most of all.

And people with UMD get all of the above minus the uberhigh damage spells and GS. But still, you can't really compare something like Horrid Wilting that does about 80-100 damage on average to a higher level creature to a melee build that can dish that out four or five times a round.

Last edited by hendrack on Mon, Feb 18 2008, 20:57 PM, edited 1 time in total.

Mages get:

high-DC instakill spells -> high saves, high SR
uberhigh damage spells -> reflex save
damage reduction spells -> +5 weapon and youre meat
AC spells -> melee types tend to have a high ab
paralyzing spells, mind spells, non-bullrush bigby, slow spells, AoE spells -> saves again
Invisibility -> faded ball

Disjuctions, TimeStop and GS preparation most of all -> thats about it.

edit: if your posts were not about PvP ignore this post

Exactly. That's the problem. Taking away the only real advantage a class has because it's not fair to people who could slaughter anyone in that class if they got close enough to get a hit off doesn't make any sense at all.

Last edited by Silvarus on Mon, Feb 18 2008, 20:59 PM, edited 2 times in total.

Krin wrote:

Quote:

Mages get high-DC instakill spells, uberhigh damage spells, damage reduction spells, AC spells, damage shields, paralyzing spells, mind spells, non-bullrush bigby, slow spells, AoE spells, Disjuctions, Invisibility, and GS preparation most of all.

And people with UMD get all of the above minus the uberhigh damage spells and GS. But still, you can't really compare something like Horrid Wilting that does about 80-100 damage on average to a higher level creature to a melee build that can dish that out four or five times a round.

Thats what Haste, IGMS, Premonition, Acid Sheath and Epic Mage Armour and fast reflexes and a bit of range are for.

Mages still are not supposed to have 100% failproof weapons. Don't dare to ask for that. Neither are there any failproof protections against mages.

Powerbuilds are strong yes, both non-caster and caster. Goes both ways.

And GS is NOT even close to being the only strength of mages. Its totally ridiculous.

EDIT: I'm pretty much about PvP, but for PvM... My points stand tens of times stronger, especially when one gets a party.

Doing what was done to GS dosnt fix the issue. There will still be soloing in these places by other powerbuilds, why dont we fix the main issue rather then doing little changes here and there.

Guys, really, stop with the "why mages own in PvP" stuff, make a new thread.

Xenos wrote:

Doing what was done to GS dosnt fix the issue. There will still be soloing in these places by other powerbuilds, why dont we fix the main issue rather then doing little changes here and there.

Guys, really, stop with the "why mages own in PvP" stuff, make a new thread.

Those powerbuilds are not invunerable, even though they can be ridiculously lame and such.

And in PvM... There should be no argument at all. The monsters are not devcritting fighter/bard/RDD:s.

I am just saying this was just about the perfect fix. Even quite mild from my perspective.

The nerf was never about stopping soloing. It was about soloing WITHOUT RISK.

Krin wrote:

I tried going through the Spires last night and this morning with my pure sorc. As expected, both times turned out badly. So I must be missing something. How did you solo the Abyss and the Spires without GS as a wizard?

In my Wizard's case? Not for the Abyss, he has no EDK, but for the Spires it was "from level 17 onwards" He's a tough wee fella for a pure mage, but if you are outclassed by a Wiz17 as a Sorc30...

Are you, and you can either take offence or not, deliberately playing like a n00b there to prove a point?

Last edited by hendrack on Mon, Feb 18 2008, 21:06 PM, edited 1 time in total.

Unless the spawns in the epic areas all get TS, there is not much more risk involved.

edit: oops, forgot about the shadowdancers.

Disco has said before that he dosnt want these places to be soloed. Spires is still cake, dont need GS for that, but if he dosnt want Abyss and Actend soloed by better builds, now that GS cant get us through it, this is the answer.

Perhaps i should just make a new topic on how to stop soloing.

No, I said "Not solo-ed without a scratch". I am sure I can solo the Abyss. It will take me a lot of gold, and a lot of hits, and an insane amount of patience. I don't mind that. I do mind somebody letting his pet do the work while he is browsing internet or reading a book.

Quote:

Thats what Haste, IGMS, Premonition, Acid Sheath and Epic Mage Armour and fast reflexes and a bit of range are for.

Mages still are not supposed to have 100% failproof weapons. Don't dare to ask for that. Neither are there any failproof protections against mages.

Powerbuilds are strong yes, both non-caster and caster. Goes both ways.

And GS is NOT even close to being the only strength of mages. Its totally ridiculous.

EDIT: I'm pretty much about PvP, but for PvM... My points stand tens of times stronger, especially when one gets a party.

GS isn't failproof. People get past it all the time with Whirlwind, Mord scrolls, shifting into an umberhulk then back again so you can see where the mage is, etc. GS isn't the only strength a mage has, but it's the only real protection. A mage with 25 AC, even fully buffed with Acid Sheath, Premonition, etc. will still be dead in two seconds in a fight versus a melee build unless they use GS.

I really just don't see why this should be an issue at all. Mages don't benefit very much from being able to run around in GS while hunting. If it's not about PvP, then why do you care if a mage has a lot of gold or some good items that they might be able to use to beat your insane powerbuild in PvP?

Didi wrote:

The nerf was never about stopping soloing. It was about soloing WITHOUT RISK.

QFE.

And, Krin. Learn to Mage-Fight. Even Airais with her piddly 102 HP and lack of Necrofocus can beat most tanks.

Also, high DC via scrolls? Lawl. The DC when done by a scroll is simply 10+level. That's 19, tops. Also, the caster level is so low that damage is weak, and basic spell resistance stops it.

Balance wise, however, the change was made with PvM in mind. Balancing PvP is impossible, simply. I'm pretty sure Disco is as aware as the rest of us, that the main issue is with someone being able to solo the highest hunting grounds without a chance of getting killed. There's no way to reliably stop builds from solo'ing without ganking just about everyone else.

Ron 'BrainSplitter' wrote:

There's no way to reliably stop builds from solo'ing without ganking just about everyone else.

Sure there is, if you make it so people cant go to these places alone via rules and scripts.

That seems a little too restrictive.

DM Disco wrote:

That seems a little too restrictive.

To Add; And good luck scripting it to not catch the little guy who crashes and tries to log in after his party has left.

I doubt the DMs want to be bogged down by checking parties to see where the rest of their party is, either.

I'd -really- like to see Airas beat a dev critting tank without GS or Bigby spells, seeing as if mages keep using Bigby spells to survive, that'll be nerfed next.

I think the party script is a -much- better idea, btw. It stops soloing and encourages party RP and you don't need to nerf classes to do it.

'Kay. This is of course assuming said opponent -isn't- a massive powerbuild nut.

A ; Mass Haste self.
B ; If opponent has haste - stay out of range until their low-duration haste wears off.
C ; If no, or when worn off - Grease spell (for the 50% speed reduction)
D ; Great Thunderclap to see their saves.
E ; Summon Dragon to keep WM somewhat busy, or at least taking damage.
F ; If low Will - Dominate Monster, if low Fort - Wail, if low Reflex - Empowered Delayed Blast Fireball spam (Epic evoker, whee). If none are low - Horrid Wilting repititions.

Apparently we need to fall back on simple statements: this is the change, deal with it.

Aye. IMHO, people are getting a little too butt-hurt over this. I'm just arguing for the post count and to show why GS wasn't really needed so much as a crutch.

Change is a change, deal with it, or vote with your feet.

I admit I -am- a little butt-hurt over this. But only because I just used 18 DCs to get a full rebuild so I could switch to Conjuration from Evocation, the class has been useless for me since you all nerfed Meteor Swarm, and now EDK is nerfed too? Ugh. But.. bah. Just bah.

Question - because I dont know anything about a mage. Is that one summons of 23rd level or two or more summons/dominates/familiars/whatever combined to 23?

Krin wrote:

I admit I -am- a little butt-hurt over this. But only because I just used 18 DCs to get a full rebuild so I could switch to Conjuration from Evocation, the class has been useless for me since you all nerfed Meteor Swarm, and now EDK is nerfed too? Ugh. But.. bah. Just bah.

Two ideas:

1) Find out what is going to be nerfed next and not spend DC's to rebuild for it

2) Not confine your build to one spell as a focus.

(I know...I know...I suck; all I could think of.)

DM Disco wrote:

No, I said "Not solo-ed without a scratch". I am sure I can solo the Abyss. It will take me a lot of gold, and a lot of hits, and an insane amount of patience. I don't mind that. I do mind somebody letting his pet do the work while he is browsing internet or reading a book.

Never happened on a wizard.

Sorry, not with a dragon.
The dragon takes way too much damage to do that.

You have to stream at least 30-40 healing potions to him for a solo run like that.

Thats hardly cost-effective.

Funiculus wrote:

Krin wrote:

I admit I -am- a little butt-hurt over this. But only because I just used 18 DCs to get a full rebuild so I could switch to Conjuration from Evocation, the class has been useless for me since you all nerfed Meteor Swarm, and now EDK is nerfed too? Ugh. But.. bah. Just bah.

Two ideas:

1) Find out what is going to be nerfed next and not spend DC's to rebuild for it

2) Not confine your build to one spell as a focus.

(I know...I know...I suck; all I could think of.)

He's a sorceror. They dont get the kind of feats that a Wizard does. I'm sure they can swing a dual focus, but not much else.

DM Disco wrote:

Apparently we need to fall back on simple statements: this is the change, deal with it.

What are we discussing here then?

DM Disco wrote:

I must say that I expected a bit of a fuss about the nerf, but I am happy to see that the main emotion is "Hmmm... new situation, how are we gonna adapt?". Complaining you can't play a one-trick pony anymore won't help much anyway.

^ That ^ Xenos.

The only thing i will add to this thread is my personnel experience......

My cleric, Abberund, cannot beat Krin......he's tried a couple times in some friendly sport, and failed both.

the only rule Abberund has for combat is that Krin fights for himself, with no help/summons......and he still owns. so don't cry about PvP. chances are you just aren't fighting your battles right.

Oh, well, other tricks. EDK and Invis, and just run spires. You can dominate the Frost giants as well, buff both, and down the Spires you go under invis, dont even need GS.

Beside that, you cant do much in Abyss but buff, there immune to most energy type, so id just not go there if i was lvling a mage, if you want the shops there, just GS and run to the end, dont need to fight.

EKD + Invis still has its risk, hence it's Okay.

Watch out for Invis Purge and the few critters that brush next to you and percieve you.

Ya, because we all know that no GSed mage has ever encountered problems in the abyss, I mean its not like its full of spawns that have AOE or chain lightning. and its not like its full of traps... oh wait it is.

GS and EDK can at best last a few spawns for any but Buff mages.

Basically what I mean to say is that nerfing mages like this is a really annoying move. There are plenty of better soloing builds then GS summon mages.

Oh and heres an idea, why not just nerf every one so that no class could possibly do soloing. Because as we all know there is nothing more vital on an RP server then making sure people don't solo. Because hunting trips are always such bountiful sources of great RP.

//Edited to remove slight jack-assery

You win the 'Got a civil thread locked' award of the day.

Congratulations.

Personally, I think He's just expressing a view that some people would put up themselves, but Just don't have the guts/willingness to do it/ get the backlash from people.

Perhaps it could have been posted in a more constructive way, but hey. He's pissed. So are alot of people, I bet. Myself included.

There was nothing I liked better than seeing (and playing) a mage who'd walk around, pulling along there steady damage cannon's/Tanks, and safely healing others without fear of retribution/AoO's. Ah well. I don't rely on GS anyway.

If you want to have a build that can quickly level to max level by himself, without any party (especially at high levels), then you're probably not a roleplayer. Not because Roleplayers don't powerlevel, or Roleplayer's don't make good builds that can solo. Because you can't hope to level quickly on your own. I have a Paladin/CoT. I have huge AC, AB, Damage, and Saves. It doesn't get much better than that. And I can't Solo the Abyss without using oogles of money on Heal Potions.

If you can't handle needing other people on a Multiplayer game, then you should stick to campaign.

Being the owner of 3 Epic Amia mages.. I'll totally tell you that frankly, the Abyss is overrated. Take a party there. I never bothered soloing it other than once just to see if i could. I got half-way through at most, before people came to help. And frankly, If i dont have a full party i dont go there, unless its a store run.

Quote:

GS and EDK can at best last a few spawns for any but Buff mages.

That combo could do the whole spires effortlessly. Infact last time I was there the EDK (which was a silver) took 2hp worth of damage over the entire dungeon. The mage was of course untouched (any mage worth his salt will throw up a protection from elements and suddenly the fireball traps are useless).

If you're GS'ed it's really no ones fault but your own if you get hit by area effects. You have no reason to be anywhere near the radius.

Face it, the mage has hardly been nerfed beyond playability. Between EDK and dominate monster, disabling spells and invisibility wands, there are still plenty of options.

GS used to be lame. It got fixed. I for one, am pleased it did. Personally i would have just preferred the duration to be slashed to rounds per level, but hey, you cant please eveyone.

And I think you're missing their point Great Equilizer. Its not about there being better soloing builds. Its the fact that mages could solo anywhere with impunity because they were 100% safe even if it went horribly wrong.

Last edited by camthrax on Tue, Feb 19 2008, 3:35 AM, edited 1 time in total.

ANY half decent build can do Spires effortlessly, I know this, as I've watched it happen. (I've only ever really played Caster characters to the point where they can do Spires.) Playing Neutral characters, and having a Pink dragon, I've usually had to use maybe 1 healing potion, compared to the 3-4 I've watched others chug. *shrug* Not much of a difference to your profits, in all honesty.

EDIT:

Dwagin wrote:

Being the owner of 3 Epic Amia mages.. I'll totally tell you that frankly, the Abyss is overrated. Take a party there. I never bothered soloing it other than once just to see if i could. I got half-way through at most, before people came to help. And frankly, If i dont have a full party i dont go there, unless its a store run.

This. Exactly this. except for one thing (I was never the greatest build/Caster player anyway) I had to use so many Healing pots on my dragon, It never seemed worth it.

Level 23 Summons and GS.

Who is online