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hendrack wrote:

Whats the fuzz? My level 28 wizard can still solo the Abyss with an EDK and a dominated balor with plain invisibility. And for PvP: staying in GS while your EDK whacks the other is lame anyway, IMHO.

I could swear all the creatures at the Abyss are immune to mind-dominating spells. >.>

Balors have a DC 50 and Overlords DC 55 to beat Dominate Monster, so you've got to either roll a one or somehow pump up your own DC. I took my Wizard to Abyss for the first time last night and checked them both.

The Great Equalizer wrote:

Well I am overjoyed. I mean really, I just don't think my 13 AC sorcerer who is decked out with almost purely summons was getting his ass handed to him quite regularly enough. Thank you for correcting that problem.

I mean really, thank you very much for totally utterly and most completely screwing me over.

Seriously not cool on my end, and you better damn well hope that I don't figure out which one of you was the one to proposed this or I will be spamming you personally for the next year and a half.

Now I've got to go and Permakill my now totally Useless main character who I've played as for the past two years.

Oh ya once again thanks. I really love you guys for this one.

Lousy, damn *mutter*mutter* Build a Powerbuild now! *mutter*.

Pfft. You will manage just fine.

And oh, I at least was involved in beating the drum for this.

The AI could MAYBE use a wee bit tweaking though. Haven't experienced it myself yet since my chars tend to have high AC.

BlackDahlya wrote:

hendrack wrote:

Whats the fuzz? My level 28 wizard can still solo the Abyss with an EDK and a dominated balor with plain invisibility. And for PvP: staying in GS while your EDK whacks the other is lame anyway, IMHO.

I could swear all the creatures at the Abyss are immune to mind-dominating spells. >.>

With GSF:Enchantment my dominate DC is 36, most of the time I am lucky with the roll.

Playing a wizard is all about tactics: every wizard worth his name has a wand of invisibility in his quickslot. Before getting to a new mob, I cast invisibility and let the summons charge, after that you are free to do whatever spells you got. A spawn with 6 frost giant mages is a bit tough though, but there's premonition and acid sheath for, problem solved.

hendrack wrote:

BlackDahlya wrote:

hendrack wrote:

Whats the fuzz? My level 28 wizard can still solo the Abyss with an EDK and a dominated balor with plain invisibility. And for PvP: staying in GS while your EDK whacks the other is lame anyway, IMHO.

I could swear all the creatures at the Abyss are immune to mind-dominating spells. >.>

With GSF:Enchantment my dominate DC is 36, most of the time I am lucky with the roll.

Playing a wizard is all about tactics: every wizard worth his name has a wand of invisibility in his quickslot. Before getting to a new mob, I cast invisibility and let the summons charge, after that you are free to do whatever spells you got. A spawn with 6 frost giant mages is a bit tough though, but there's premonition and acid sheath for, problem solved.

I knew it. Now it's a fact, rather than a guess.

My dice bag IS cursed. I don't remember which was Valki's DC, but it certainly was higher than 30. I could never dominate a Balor.

*Sighs and goes sulk in a corner*

Sokar Rostau wrote:

I died three times tonight because I went into Invis. instead of GS while a Frost Giant was charging me. Half of the fights that didn't involve me dieing saw my Wizard literally being chased across the entire map because the mobs ignored my summons and came straight for me and there was nothing I could do about it - if I tried to cast a spell I would have been killed in one hit because of my low HP.

Yoinks. What was your player tank doing during this? Afk?

I must say that I expected a bit of a fuss about the nerf, but I am happy to see that the main emotion is "Hmmm... new situation, how are we gonna adapt?". Complaining you can't play a one-trick pony anymore won't help much anyway.

Uberuce wrote:

Sokar Rostau wrote:

I died three times tonight because I went into Invis. instead of GS while a Frost Giant was charging me. Half of the fights that didn't involve me dieing saw my Wizard literally being chased across the entire map because the mobs ignored my summons and came straight for me and there was nothing I could do about it - if I tried to cast a spell I would have been killed in one hit because of my low HP.

Yoinks. What was your player tank doing during this? Afk?

What can a player tank do in Amia to keep a mob off the wizard?

Knockdown spam one of them?

Taunt spam one of them, if they have the class skill and investment to do so?

Okay, so what about the other 4 mobs saying 'Yum' Squishy caster treat?

Run in circles, gotcha. But how do you do this in lag?

For people with lag. for a laggy server. For lack of ways to control this through TS spawns. I thought it was an unwise move.

I still would prefer the 'Casting GS auto unsummons'. to the current iteration and most mages would, honestly. If a mage wants to cast invis, they can do that themselves.

Are there any bioware true seeing spawns other than the tanari'ri overlords and that fey in the wastes?

I was actually thinking of making a Transmutation page that allows you to set the prefered option yourself.

I'd much prefer casting GS to unsummon. Then it allows you to have your summoned dragon, and if you need your gs to live, keeps you with the option.

As it stands, I dont plan on getting any summons over level 22 anyway, RPly thats how my sorc is. But regardless, its more fair (and makes more sense) to unsumon than to go invis.

Dwagin wrote:

Uberuce wrote:

Sokar Rostau wrote:

I died three times tonight because I went into Invis. instead of GS while a Frost Giant was charging me. Half of the fights that didn't involve me dieing saw my Wizard literally being chased across the entire map because the mobs ignored my summons and came straight for me and there was nothing I could do about it - if I tried to cast a spell I would have been killed in one hit because of my low HP.

Yoinks. What was your player tank doing during this? Afk?

What can a player tank do in Amia to keep a mob off the wizard?

Speaking as a player tank (which mages seems a bit bitter at), I personally cannot do anything to get a mob off of someone. All I can do is ask (and I ask this regularly if the wizard is having trouble staying alive) them to stay back until the monsters themselves are focussed on me. And that generally seems to work, especially in narrow areas. If a wizard charges in, or ticks all the monsters off before the tanker does, they deserve it. I regularly party with a Non-GSing wizard, and we get along just fine using this tactic.

Dwagin wrote:

What can a player tank do in Amia to keep a mob off the wizard?

Kill them, mostly. There's an art to drawing your pursuer into the path of your rescuer, but Bobo is right about prevention being better than the cure.

Uberuce wrote:

Dwagin wrote:

What can a player tank do in Amia to keep a mob off the wizard?

Kill them, mostly. There's an art to drawing your pursuer into the path of your rescuer, but Bobo is right about prevention being better than the cure.

This is where AAs and other ranged classes excel. :wink:

It's almost like... almost like you have to *work together* now.

I mean, what the hell?

Bobo_Underhill wrote:

Dwagin wrote:

Uberuce wrote:

Sokar Rostau wrote:

I died three times tonight because I went into Invis. instead of GS while a Frost Giant was charging me. Half of the fights that didn't involve me dieing saw my Wizard literally being chased across the entire map because the mobs ignored my summons and came straight for me and there was nothing I could do about it - if I tried to cast a spell I would have been killed in one hit because of my low HP.

Yoinks. What was your player tank doing during this? Afk?

What can a player tank do in Amia to keep a mob off the wizard?

Speaking as a player tank (which mages seems a bit bitter at), I personally cannot do anything to get a mob off of someone. All I can do is ask (and I ask this regularly if the wizard is having trouble staying alive) them to stay back until the monsters themselves are focussed on me. And that generally seems to work, especially in narrow areas. If a wizard charges in, or ticks all the monsters off before the tanker does, they deserve it. I regularly party with a Non-GSing wizard, and we get along just fine using this tactic.

WWWWWwoooooooooords of WWWWiiiiisdoooom!

And Disco, that would be cool. Seriously.

Yar, the Invis thingmy was so non-combat non-Trickery Clerics could still buff the bejesus out of their summon and thus make life easier for their player tanks, but not be completely HIT ME.

I'd advise you to become ninja-skilled at dismissing summons from the party sidebar in the gap before the page appears.

TormakSaber wrote:

It's almost like... almost like you have to *work together* now.

I mean, what the hell?

Dude! Totally infringing on my right to not RP and power-pwn0rz through the server! I demand to limit my player interaction to only beating the hell out of lowbies at times of my choosing! Rawr!

Now that we have the nerfhammer out, let's kill druid dragonshape next eh? After all, it's next best solo pwnmobile out there... Perhaps toss some AC and such out of it to balance so they need player tank too?

Kilrauko wrote:

Now that we have the nerfhammer out, let's kill druid dragonshape next eh? After all, it's next best solo pwnmobile out there... Perhaps toss some AC and such out of it to balance so they need player tank too?

Nah...we'll keep working on sorc/wizard powerbuilds! We're eyeing you next Bigby's!

Besides, we already nerfed Dragonshape >.>

Funiculus wrote:

Kilrauko wrote:

Now that we have the nerfhammer out, let's kill druid dragonshape next eh? After all, it's next best solo pwnmobile out there... Perhaps toss some AC and such out of it to balance so they need player tank too?

Nah...we'll keep working on sorc/wizard powerbuilds! We're eyeing you next Bigby's!

Besides, we already nerfed Dragonshape >.>

Yeah.

How about monk/clerics or bard/RDD/PM:s next? ;P

Mind that this is the first high profile change we made in two years, and only after the item entered teh agenda for the 666th time. We're conservatives.

I vote for devcrit. *casts GS and runs*

I honestly don't have a problem with the other things. Except for RDDs, but that's only if they're like, Barbarian 19/Bard 1/ RDD 10 or something.

I have an even better idea. We ban every build from the power build topic.

Bobo_Underhill wrote:

I honestly don't have a problem with the other things. Except for RDDs, but that's only if they're like, Barbarian 19/Bard 1/ RDD 10 or something.

it's worse if they are RDD4 or 5 imo...

*votes to make it give the second RDD STR boost at RDD10 instead of RDD4*

Folks, focus. The chances on nerfs in other departments are still minimal. Keep to booing or hurraying the GS change and exchanging tips on how to deal with the change, please.

As for PvM I already said: be invisible before the mobs spawn, after they focused on your summons or the tanks, you can do whatever you have got on spells. Think of a rogue when he enters move silently before a spawn, you just do it with a spell.

Have a +4 CON item or two, high concentration, then you can cast bigby, invisibility again, or premonition so you don't die of one hit when a critter goes after you. Well no: a decent mage should have premonition and extended acid sheath before doing anything.

You don't even need to craft your own wands, just buy scrolls if want to keep your spell slots for buffs.

*Facepalm* I just spent 18 DCs getting a complete rebuild to change the epic spell focus from Evocation to Conjuration because the first one was made useless when Meteor Swarm was nerfed. Now I've got the dragon and -that- is nerfed too? What the hell?

With the new change, any mage will be useless in higher level areas where things have see invis or TS and can murder them with 2 hits. What's a mage supposed to do in the spires when the fire giants cast Invisibility Purge and everything charges him? Even with all the buffs, that's still insta-death.

Personally, I -hate- hunting. Hate it. It's always been mostly OOC for me because I can't think of a reason someone would run up and down a mountain for an hour murdering random beasties. I agree with that the EDK + GS thing was overpowered. But why pick on the other summons?

DM Disco wrote:

Folks, focus. The chances on nerfs in other departments are still minimal. Keep to booing or hurraying the GS change and exchanging tips on how to deal with the change, please.

I'd suggest allowing for a custom scripted widget spell/transmutation tome to perhaps simulate a temporary escape spell, like Etheral Jaunt. Very short duration, just something that could let a caster 'fade' threat off temporarily? Maybe even do that with the book.

Like 2 or 3 rounds of a very temporary GS. That'd be very helpful party pve wise. Or perhaps a widgit that checks for castings/memorizations of GS when you activate it and consumes one when used. That way you don't have to try to mess with the book in advance or have to actually go -hunt- for such a thing.

As a caster I'd feel much better with something like that than the previous incarnation of G.sanc. If possible, or the current iteration. Plus it'd keep you from having to 'despawn' your uber-dragon, but also give casters an escape.

Frankly I detest how Bioware mobs have perma-true sight in combat once they've seen you, you can't 'invis' away, like you could in D&D.

Dwagin wrote:

DM Disco wrote:

Folks, focus. The chances on nerfs in other departments are still minimal. Keep to booing or hurraying the GS change and exchanging tips on how to deal with the change, please.

I'd suggest allowing for a custom scripted widget spell/transmutation tome to perhaps simulate a temporary escape spell, like Etheral Jaunt. Very short duration, just something that could let a caster 'fade' threat off temporarily? Maybe even do that with the book.

Like 2 or 3 rounds of a very temporary GS. That'd be very helpful party pve wise. Or perhaps a widgit that checks for castings/memorizations of GS when you activate it and consumes one when used. That way you don't have to try to mess with the book in advance or have to actually go -hunt- for such a thing.

As a caster I'd feel much better with something like that than the previous incarnation of G.sanc. If possible, or the current iteration. Plus it'd keep you from having to 'despawn' your uber-dragon, but also give casters an escape.

Frankly I detest how Bioware mobs have perma-true sight in combat once they've seen you, you can't 'invis' away, like you could in D&D.

If he adds the transmutation page for despawn choise, that problem should be solved.

Quote:

With the new change, any mage will be useless in higher level areas where things have see invis or TS and can murder them with 2 hits. What's a mage supposed to do in the spires when the fire giants cast Invisibility Purge and everything charges him? Even with all the buffs, that's still insta-death.

I beg to differ, a proper made wizard can even solo the Abyss, the Manor and the Spires quite easily and fast, without GS. I do it all the time when no one is around in my playing times.

edit: my wiz only dies when she tries to rescue another PC who gets into trouble, how sad it sounds: a soloing wizard is far easier to play since you can concentrate on all around you (hp, summons, buffs and so on). I just like to party because its boring alone.

hendrack wrote:

As for PvM I already said: be invisible before the mobs spawn, after they focused on your summons or the tanks, you can do whatever you have got on spells. Think of a rogue when he enters move silently before a spawn, you just do it with a spell.

Have a +4 CON item or two, high concentration, then you can cast bigby, invisibility again, or premonition so you don't die of one hit when a critter goes after you. Well no: a decent mage should have premonition and extended acid sheath before doing anything.

You don't even need to craft your own wands, just buy scrolls if want to keep your spell slots for buffs.

I'm not going to throw away 300 gold every spawn of 6 monsters to not get splatted in a 6 man party, at epic it might be fiscally swingable.

For the other things.. it'd leave a mage doing that very very poor, or limited in the 'choise' buff slots.

5 Extended acid sheaths, 3 Elemental Wardings, 5 Prems, add in bigbys, mind blank, shadow shield, prot from spells, a few other toys. Imp invis and a buncha invis's will severely limit the number of weapon buffs melee get. The level 3-5 spellslots are already cramped enough for wizards without having to force the flame weapons to extended/stilled on level 3. Everyone demands mass haste, and by the time you get to the bottom of the tree you mayhaps get 7 spellslots over spell levels 6-9 free to choose debuff/etc, if you actually try to have a balanced kit and proper DC for spells as suggested.

But it'll basically turn a pure wizard into a summon anchor/buff bot that can support a party of 3 with little room otherwise.. One other person, their summon and themselves, given balanced stat gear, between int/con.

In 6 man parties it wont be so bad.. but in 2/3 man this change can hurt alot. The tatical and players with a firm grasp on the system are going to have a definate leg up on people who 'abused' gs + summon. Not everyone has the capability to be constantly aware or responds well to pressure. Hunting and RP should not be mutually exclusive, even on a 'RP/Adventure' server.

I tried going through the Spires last night and this morning with my pure sorc. As expected, both times turned out badly. So I must be missing something. How did you solo the Abyss and the Spires without GS as a wizard?

hendrack wrote:

my wiz only dies when she tries to rescue another PC who gets into trouble, how sad it sounds: a soloing wizard is far easier to play since you can concentrate on all around you (hp, summons, buffs and so on). I just like to party because its boring alone.

I notice this fact as well. Usually because I'm trying to RP and do that, AND deal with other issues.

Yes, that would be hot, all bigby spells should have the concentration check, and components.

So if we bring up Dev crit 666 times, it will get nerfed?

People on this thread talk as though soloing the abyss is a god given right! Its not, it never has been, and it really shouldnt be. In order to solo the abyss, you should have to have a blummin tough build AND be blummin great at using it (its the second part of this that rules Veh out from doing it).

soooo...it seems like this is promoting different powerbuilds. Kind of saw that coming. Well...time to create a sorcerer/pally/rogue now...or sorcerer/bg/rogue...got to keep the balance right?

I'm not saying anyone should be able to solo the Abyss. Hell, I couldn't do it even -with- the EDK. Usually, the only ones that -can- do that are the ones with shameless powerbuilds that make absolutely no sense in RP. Druid/Monks, Sorc/Pally/Rogues, Sorc/Monk/Pally, etc. and honestly I don't think powerbuilds should be encouraged on an RP server at all.

Last edited by Silvarus on Mon, Feb 18 2008, 20:16 PM, edited 1 time in total.

Didi wrote:

People on this thread talk as though soloing the abyss is a god given right! Its not, it never has been, and it really shouldnt be. In order to solo the abyss, you should have to have a blummin tough build AND be blummin great at using it (its the second part of this that rules Veh out from doing it).

Yeah. Gagis is a ridiculously lame sorc/pala/monk and he can not solo the abyss, but with a party, it goes to pure pwnage.

I don't go there without at least 3 people, or 2 damn good powerbuilds. Spires are ridiculously easy with the right spells.

Managed to solo Actand though, but VERY slowly... and one mistake is fatal.

Note: I do not use EDK or GS, and I have used Gate only once this far.

I believe it would be possible to solo everywhere by sending a well buffed Planetar well ahead... and avoid coming to close range by oneself, as any mage. Not to mention well buffed and occasionally healed EDK, even with the GS nerf.

Basically I use a lot of wands so I can free up spell slots.
I craft a wand of invis for around 15k and have a wand that has 1d20+29 charges. Quite cheap compared to what loot you get. One run in the manor got me around 250k of loot. And I did not even finish it.

Soloing the abyss: casting a dragon and the usual self buffs, making your dragon invisible and yourself, command your dragon to stand his ground. Wait for one spawn, dominate a balor, buff his arse up and now you got two full time tanks that swipe through every spawn before the tanari'ri even have time to react to me. Ocassionally a tanari'ri dismisses the dragon, but thats about it what can happen.

Besides, my wiz has 360 hp, should anything goes after him, I have plenty of time to react before my premonition uses up. Either I wait for the enemy to die from the acid sheath... if things look bad I ditch all summons and enter GS.

I never played sorcs though, I can't give you much advice on them.

And no: my wiz is a pure one.

The funny thing is: I created that wizard as RP build! Pure wizard! Only metamagic feats and craft wand!

Xenos wrote:

Yes, that would be hot, all bigby spells should have the concentration check, and components.

So if we bring up Dev crit 666 times, it will get nerfed?

Please don't derail the thread, tensions and concerns are already high enough, make a dev crit thread if you feel inclined...or necro one up, Disco already asked us once to stay on track.

Pwease?

hendrack wrote:

Soloing the abyss: casting a dragon and the usual self buffs, making your dragon invisible and yourself, command your dragon to stand his ground. Wait for one spawn, dominate a balor, buff his arse up and now you got two full time tanks that swipe through every spawn before the tanari'ri even have time to react to me. Ocassionally a tanari'ri dismisses the dragon, but thats about it what can happen.

Balors have a DC 45 will or something silly, do they not?

I have enough trouble with Epic Conjuration focus and Planar binding. And they get a -5 vs that to their saves.

Well, I invested two feats for greater spell focus enchantment. Besides: I do not want to encourage soloing, I like to RP with a party. But it is quite easy knowing how to play it.

If the issue was with Soloing the abyss and Actend, then there was a FAR easyer change that could have been done...
.
...
....
Wait for it..
..
...
Make these areas inaccessable without a party!! Ding ding ding! Now NOONE can solo in ANY powerbuild, and there is no need to nerf anything. Any area the team deams should not be run without a part can be made this way.

From what ive been told again and again when people make retarted un FR shat here, Amia is about FUN. When i log in and want to hunt, i dont want to spend 30 min tring to find some idiot in plate. First i dont run or RP with people i generally dont know inless they speak to me first. 75% of the RP ive seen here is utter idiocy, so im not going to try to find that 25%, ill stick to the people i know already.

This really didnt solve the issue, i can still solo the spires with no risk. There is no reasion to go to abyss, the difficulty to XP gain isnt worth it inless you factor in they drop more gold. When i was lvling it was alwese refered to as the place to go to farm gold, where as fire giants is the place for the XP. If you want to make these places none soloable, then i say again, script it that way. This nerf is only beating around the bush, its not solving the issue on all fronts. Sure, you maybe stoped one sort of powerbuild from soloing Actend and Abyss, but there are still others that can. Yes i know the issue was "without risk" but disco has said in a pervious post something along the lines of these places are not ment to be soloed by anyone. I know Nas can solo Actend with me watching from the back, 30 min clear. I know he can solo Abyss, and i bet he wont hardly take any hits or fall below 50% hp once. Im not much for the powerbuilds, but im sure there are others that CAN solo these places.

If you want to stop soloing, its not about nerfing the classes, its about fixing the mod on your end. Make these places unsoloable by script and rule.

The old baalors were immune to dominate, and exploded when they died...the news ones have a 33 will...or 30 will can't remember...it's not that hard to get them, when they roll 1's. *cries* I just wish they weren't immune to death spells, even though all their saves are really really high.

All this change does is encourage more powerbuilds. I'm already considering making my char a shameless powerbuild just to keep up with everyone.

Only now I don't have the DCs for that because I used them to switch focuses. How many mages really benefit from being able to run around in GS while hunting? Most gear on the server favors melee builds heavily. I'm still using the same crap I had at level 20 on my char. The vest from the Tower shop, a +5 nymph cloak, and some random gear from the faction shop.

How many times have you seen someone auctioning off epic gear who wasn't a shameless powerbuild or who doesn't have buddies that are powerbuilds?

Xenos, no.

And it has been abused in PvP enough to warrant change in my opinion too. Note, my opinion.

Checking the description of the mage classes you might note that there is nothing about being the easy road to godmode.

Quote:

Xenos, no. Smile

And it has been abused in PvP enough to warrant change in my opinion too.

Checking the description of the mage classes you might note that there is nothing about being the easy road to godmode.

So? GS is the mages only real protection in PvP with everyone and their mother being able to see invis.

Level 23 Summons and GS.

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