AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

Plot thing; thats fine.

Corpses where there should be guards though does cause RP, once found though. And those silver dragons and their mage pals are no slouches. Some guards have epic dodge.

But for all you know some NPCs you want to randomly go around killing might have a RP power that is not properly represented by mechanics. Which wouldn't be fair.

You run into Tarkuul and you start spraying NPCs. Cool. But you're bound to find a NPC that, yes fights back, but has a power a DM would need to be on to control. Otherwise whats the point of the NPC having the power if it is not represented.

Palin489 wrote:

I could write essays on why Amia is where it is, but I have in the past, and it's fallen on deaf ears.

I'll be short then: Amia's a failed project, it had wings when it was a big server with a robust and active DM team, but today it's founding principle of a DM pushed high quality storyline is a long lost dream. This server is """""living""""" (see life support) in the shadow of giants, one of which is it's own former self. It can never return to it's own image of days gone by.

Here's the other giant:
http://imgur.com/a/Vd7F7

Amia was born out of Arelith, and it was a split made on the idea of DM facilitated RP, whereas Arelith pushed for player facilitated RP. They ran with this idea, and today their work and decision shows in spades. Players have power there, and that's really what RPers want, their own power to do things. They don't sit around for a DM, they just use the ingame systems that their server built for them to allow them to play without ever asking someone for help unless it was IC.

Pack it in folks, game's over.

I believe it is revivable once you create a set of laws and rules on how the storyline interacts with each other. I also believe because the server is dm heavy, we need to create areas of differing rp. I do know of a way of doing this, however, it requires turning the server into a grid like thing for easy track keeping and providing the room each dm would need for their plotlines. I believe something like this would help in providing a more colorful palatte of plots.
As for good and evil characters. Every society (even kohiligin) has need of assassins and whatnot. Stand by the laws of your society and fit in, do not go above and beyond if it is a good alignment city, and do take some special pleasure from your kills. all I can suggest for those playing evil characters. Remember the alignment does not put you on a team, but if the moral outlook of your character.
Also, a suggestion for Commie's arguement, make any and all plot people plot so he cant kill them.

It leads to RP up to the point where they see it and try to investigate. Then without a DM it is entirely up to you if you give them any leads or not. Now, you might do that. But you might also be a player who things his character is flawless and does not leave a single trace and then all this leads to is frustration and ignoring what happened because it is a dead end anyways. Sure then they could "guard" the area, but there is also players who check who is online and then wait until the PCs of that area in question log off (because people eventually have to sleep or eat) because they are certain their PC is perfect and would know exactly when the area is "clear" and when not of actually challenging PCs. Now this is a general phrasing of my concern on the topic, I do not mean to imply that YOU (personally) would do that, but I do know there certainly are plenty players who would. And I have witnessed exactly that happening, many times.

re Libris, yes, we were actually considering for a time now to add dynamic spawns where you can get an option to hostile them or not (guard patrols). Or in some cases, them being auto hostile (random bandit or orc attacks on roads etc.)

I mean, I don't want to do direct 1:1 comparisons, but I've spent the last week or so on a server with a Cordor where it just happens on the reg and it's just not an issue.

To me it's a bigger problem to have unattackable NPC's then ones that have a tendency to not fight at max capacity, now that I've seen both.

Then my question: what does it give you to attack NPC with little to no effort or consequence compared to attacking any other hostile spawn? Because at that point the NPC simply is a "spawn to attack" aswell, just with the difference that you can chose to or not to.

And it is pretty obvious which server you mean. And I am fairly sure that those spawns are also selected spawns and you still cannot run around and murder every single NPC in the city if you feel like it on a day.

So adding that option to NPC which are maybe a bit "off" like sewer guards or outskirt guard is something I could see myself agreeing with.

But not running through cordor east and chopping down any NPC and assume nothing will happen.

The Little Dragon wrote:

Palin489 wrote:

I could write essays on why Amia is where it is, but I have in the past, and it's fallen on deaf ears.

I'll be short then: Amia's a failed project, it had wings when it was a big server with a robust and active DM team, but today it's founding principle of a DM pushed high quality storyline is a long lost dream. This server is """""living""""" (see life support) in the shadow of giants, one of which is it's own former self. It can never return to it's own image of days gone by.

Here's the other giant:
http://imgur.com/a/Vd7F7

Amia was born out of Arelith, and it was a split made on the idea of DM facilitated RP, whereas Arelith pushed for player facilitated RP. They ran with this idea, and today their work and decision shows in spades. Players have power there, and that's really what RPers want, their own power to do things. They don't sit around for a DM, they just use the ingame systems that their server built for them to allow them to play without ever asking someone for help unless it was IC.

Pack it in folks, game's over.

I believe it is revivable once you create a set of laws and rules on how the storyline interacts with each other. I also believe because the server is dm heavy, we need to create areas of differing rp. I do know of a way of doing this, however, it requires turning the server into a grid like thing for easy track keeping and providing the room each dm would need for their plotlines. I believe something like this would help in providing a more colorful palatte of plots.
As for good and evil characters. Every society (even kohiligin) has need of assassins and whatnot. Stand by the laws of your society and fit in, do not go above and beyond if it is a good alignment city, and do take some special pleasure from your kills. all I can suggest for those playing evil characters. Remember the alignment does not put you on a team, but if the moral outlook of your character.
Also, a suggestion for Commie's arguement, make any and all plot people plot so he cant kill them.

Disagree completely.

1. Your argument of Kohlingen having a need of Assassin will not get a response. Sorry. If I mis interrupted.

2. I keep seeing Amia is a "DM Driven" and "DM Required" server. Arelith is not Amia, Amia is not Arelith, neither servers is PoTM or Sinfar. Each server is unique in their own way. We seriously need to stop comparing Amia to other servers on how "Good" or "Bad" it is.

3. As I've tried to point out Commie some NPCS are guaranteed to have powers that are not capable of being expressed by IG Mechanics. And as Amarice said, it's not just about that. It's about RP.

EXP:

Hector walks out of the gates and sees 3 dead (NPC) guards. How would he get information regarding it. DM wasn't on so a (NPC) Civilian who may or may not have saw it could not give a proper / could give a proper description of the individual at question. There is a lot more aspects towards a NPC getting killed than the fight and mechanical aspects.

Logically, with a DM oversight, characters like Hector will get a good opportunity in a investigation on the matter. Otherwise you could literally walk up with clear indication of who you are, murder a NPC, and not post on the forums. Therefore you will get away free of all crimes.

Amarice-Elaraliel wrote:

Then my question: what does it give you to attack NPC with little to no effort or consequence compared to attacking any other hostile spawn? Because at that point the NPC simply is a "spawn to attack" aswell, just with the difference that you can chose to or not to.

Because killing guards and civvies in town scares people. That was the intention as far as I can tell and its working. People are mad at the player guard guys for still demanding weapons be put away when there's an actual serial murderer on the loose.

Sometimes it's about sending a message.

Amarice-Elaraliel wrote:

And it is pretty obvious which server you mean. And I am fairly sure that those spawns are also selected spawns and you still cannot run around and murder every single NPC in the city if you feel like it on a day.

So adding that option to NPC which are maybe a bit "off" like sewer guards or outskirt guard is something I could see myself agreeing with.

But not running through cordor east and chopping down any NPC and assume nothing will happen.

I mean, its just normal NPC's as far as I can tell. Inside the walls. Guards too. Each time I've seen it. Hell I think I got murdered twice my first day there and saw two other murders. But there's a rather intense plot going on atm so the violence rate has spiked like 6000%.

Okay so everyone just keeps murdering eachother, hitting respawn or getting raised and rinse repeat while NPC are dead but still never run out of guadrs so next day there is just the same NPC there again anyways. So the NPC dyings only consequence is that people get more reason to randomly murder eachother.

Dunno, not my piece of cake. But well each to their own.

I cannot see a scenario for Amia where you just can run around cities and murder all NPC without DM oversight and possible greater consequences/reactions. Some off side NPC in the outskirts, sewers, partols or more "shady" parts of the city is another matter.

Though you might like the idea I had then and mentioned in the other thread, where such a concept fits a bit more to than a guarded city. Alas if that will ever happen or not, depends on how the rest of the staff feels about the idea. And then if we get enough dev muscle work to help do it.

Amarice-Elaraliel wrote:

Okay so everyone just keeps murdering eachother, hitting respawn or getting raised and rinse repeat while NPC are dead but still never run out of guadrs so next day there is just the same NPC there again anyways. So the NPC dyings only consequence is that people get more reason to randomly murder eachother.

Dunno, not my piece of cake. But well each to their own.

To be fair the gnoll is really fast and actually just runs away like you might expect an animal to do when confronted with a bigger force. But death is a bigger deal there then on Amia as you lose things, and some players have limited respawns, so it adds more weight.

Resets are on like a 24 hour thing? I think? So it's a long time till ppl come back. So its not constant warfare.

I'm not trying to say one is better then the other, I think in theory amia's guiding DM hand works better then the 'automated' systems of its twin, but I don't think it's wrong or bad to say 'hey this works there, why not here?'

I believe what Commie is trying to point out that even though there are no long term effects of the situation, the the players are constantly engaged by his actions as they make an effort to kill him.

A dm oriented server can easily work like this if set up properly. What needs done is that everything needs a representation in the game. like where the guards sleep, train and whatnot. if we place all of this into the game, players can interact with it. but not only that, we need to add in things that can keep players occupied. like writing books for a library about things found on the island. the mages guild looking for powerful artifacts to research and examine, the city watch seeking members who are willing to patrol the outskirts of the city and to report their findings, infiltrators willing to spy on other cities. things like this can engage people as well.

Though as a dm oriented server, i do believe players also have to have some ammount of self restraint in situations.

As said... working on a concept here. Or rather made some concepts. Waiting on feedback of the Dev and DM team what is wanted and (most importantly) what can actually be done. Once that (especially the latter) is sorted we might do a few sneak peaks (as long as it does not spoiler any plot lines

)

The problem is not that people want DMs to do everything, Amarice, it's that when DMs are asked to do things it often requires a large waiting period and every DM/player/Dev/person has to know about it and be okay beforehand and that whole perfection expectation. If someone has a problem with it we don't have a way to filter those complaints/concerns/objections. We used to. Granted, Nekhy and the systems before weren't perfect, but nothing will be- what matters is that there IS one and that the one that happens gets utilized and respected. I hated how condescending Lally could be when faced with a situation that she clearly had an opinion or a bias on, but while she was the conflict resolution DM she was also pretty good at responding in a timely manner, which was better than nothing.

Currently DMs just sort of do what they want when they want as long as the WHOLE TEAM knows, tell players not to expect anything and that there's this huge list and it can't get done and don't even seem to have an investment in the actual storyline. Yossarin wasn't perfect but he made a giant storyline that included a lot of areas and history. Tormak wasn't perfect but his dragon plot was pretty epic and gave people footholds. I personally believe Leggomi/Robert was the best DM this server has ever seen, both in storytelling and in conflict management, so I'd go back and look over how he went about it all. Sure, there may be favorites at times, mistakes, but there was something there. People had passion, the server had life. Now it's like micro-managing a bunch of children and there's no focus on the depth and the beauty of what Amia has been, could be and was meant for.

I can't believe none of that got addressed by anyone, including you, Ama. The problems here are so deep and convoluted it's not about whether you include summon information or not. It's about how the system has failed us all, as a community. Until that gets recognized and dealt with, we're all fucked.

This thread needs to be locked as nothing positive is coming of it.

Estara wrote:

The problem is not that people want DMs to do everything

The problem with the current state of the server is nothing can be done without the DMs. There are no scripted means of progression and no systems in place for players to fight over and squabble after toward plot development.

Creating resources that the cities suddenly and directly need in order to survive/thrive for some strange and fantastic reason and making them finite for periods of time during the reset would probably add a lot to the server, but the player base here really hates conflict and pvp so I don't think it would go over well.

I think making things rely a good deal more on the game engine than the DM team to make interesting developments take place would probably breath new life into amia. It would also be a good way to make the cities more or less significant based on player investment. Making the cities faction based pvp (and actually scripting NPC factions for them) would be a great start because then you could have player characters join the mechanical factions and farm reputation with them like WoW or something, but for meaningful purposes IC.

This was just a one off idea but I saw "State of the Server" and thought I would poke my head in. My advice is only to try to create an environment where the DMs don't need to do/run everything so that when the DMs do run/do stuff it's either the occasional pvp antic or events that they run of their own accord and desire that will be more fun for them and everyone else around them instead of obligatory plots for the newest active faction that crops up. Giving players something to build thus gives other players something to knock down and it becomes a fight to get/keep resources and build towns and the drama takes place therein.

What is it people want to be able to do without DMs? I am not quite sure I see what the need is. As I said before, no server work without DMs, no server that is not pure chaos has players able to do big server changes without DMs. What is it you want? And what is stopping players from doing more faction stuff beside a small player number.

Look waaaaay back to the beginnings of this thread people. Somehow we've gotten to the problems being about scripts, areas, waiting times....so on and so forth. It's been said and solved, the game itself is not the problem. The problems with Amia lie between the keboards and the chairs. Solve those first, and we may get somewhere. Ego's keep getting in the way, and we look for something to blame. Dust off the mirror and get a clearer view of the actual problem.

LordAzack wrote:

This thread needs to be locked as nothing positive is coming of it.

This is the way the server is going as we speak. Problem-->voice-->Opinion-->argument-->lock-->repeat.

Analog Kid wrote:

Look waaaaay back to the beginnings of this thread people. Somehow we've gotten to the problems being about scripts, areas, waiting times....so on and so forth. It's been said and solved, the game itself is not the problem. The problems with Amia lie between the keboards and the chairs. Solve those first, and we may get somewhere. Ego's keep getting in the way, and we look for something to blame. Dust off the mirror and get a clearer view of the actual problem.

LordAzack wrote:

This thread needs to be locked as nothing positive is coming of it.

This is the way the server is going as we speak. Problem-->voice-->Opinion-->argument-->lock-->repeat.

Keep it open, it is not derailing I say. We need to be able to discuss and listen.

Just a fyi, no promises or anything, but we are looking into an old project that Disco made in the past but never quite finished. It was a full scale territorial claim system with quests, npc guards, etc. Essential a zone that a DM doesn't need to be present in to assert some sort of control over. Amarice and a few others in the past did a test of it and it was apparently shaping up to be really amazing.

Once we get a chance to look into that, that might open some doors which I think will appease a lot of people. If that doesn't go through because of us being unable to figure out/resurrect the script then we might consider implementing a somewhat more limited island or two that is a free for all when it comes to claiming stuff, using the current rental system to build out bases, etc. Ideally things could be taken over and flipped within a fair system while still offering a more lawless land to do your own thing in.

Oh, I think I remember testing that, if it is what I think it is. Either way, that sounds great. Reminds me of when places like Chillwyck, Ceren's Mill, and even Wiltun were basically the wild west. I think that offers a lot of what players are wanting. Freedom to act on your own initiatives, but with a lot faster feedback. Want to build a base? Do it. Want to take someone's base? Have the manpower and try. It gives an outlet for players that what to do raids, but not immediately get banned from every settlement on Amia.

Edit: Yo, if this takes place in Ruathym, it could almost be a Forgotten Realms GoT. NB4 someone rolls a wise wine-drinking halfling with a crossbow.

Ah no, the general idea currently is an isle close to amia (where Lumorier used to be) of outlaw. Something tortuga/iron islands mix style. This is something best implented from the scratch to work properl instead of trying to work it into already existing area with its own functions and scripts already. Though it might be expanded to existing areas later on if all works well.

Still working on the whole concept, hence why I laid low on the details in case t meets much opposition, but so far it does not! so hooray.

Too late in the game to compete with servers who have been doing that for the better part of a decade and have built all the ancillary systems to get this going. Hell even the treasury and election system in Arelith is mechanically implemented.

I respect the diehards of Amia, that's some serious loyalty, but what I'm reading is that the changes people want are already better implemented elsewhere.

I can't see Amia doing much beyond tabletop snowflake anymore given it's diminished population, especially considering Amia's rich history of OOC/IC intermingling, which is only exacerbated by the slim profile of players you have anymore. Pushing player autonomy is a losing game, you're too far behind. DI really sort of nailed with with the snowflake agenda he had, and the mentionings of a pnp formula.

http://imgur.com/a/hCYrA

It took me a week to lift the veil, but in that week I ran into more RPers than I had in a year of Amia, doing more, and with a greater overarching story than Amia's had since Yossarin. The kicker? All player created. DMs just played a little here and there throughout to facilitate what the module couldn't, which wasn't much.

Palin489 wrote:

Too late in the game to compete with servers who have been doing that for the better part of a decade and have built all the ancillary systems to get this going. Hell even the treasury and election system in Arelith is mechanically implemented.

I respect the diehards of Amia, that's some serious loyalty, but what I'm reading is that the changes people want are already better implemented elsewhere.

I can't see Amia doing much beyond tabletop snowflake anymore given it's diminished population, especially considering Amia's rich history of OOC/IC intermingling, which is only exacerbated by the slim profile of players you have anymore. Pushing player autonomy is a losing game, you're too far behind. DI really sort of nailed with with the snowflake agenda he had, and the mentionings of a pnp formula.

http://imgur.com/a/hCYrA

It took me a week to lift the veil, but in that week I ran into more RPers than I had in a year of Amia, doing more, and with a greater overarching story than Amia's had since Yossarin. The kicker? All player created. DMs just played a little here and there throughout to facilitate what the module couldn't, which wasn't much.

I do hope you realize how childish you appear when the rest of us are talking like adults trying to take step forward.

You are also ban dodging and causing issues. I do hope you don't expect to return on your main now. I an really disappointed in players like you who can't realize their own mistakes and return after a ban as a better player.

I love Amia just as much as the rest of you guys. So I will continue to do my best to help shape the server into something you guys want and most importantly enjoy. Reasonable ideas and thoughts are welcome. Lets please avoid the toxic hostility and move forward.

1. We all know if you leave Amia, majority of them come back. A day, two days, a week. They come back. Amia is a unique server that offers unique opportunities.

2. Other Servers are doing it and I'm glad. Means more servers I can go on, with a alt account, and test.

3. It's only to late when Disco stops paying for the server.

----

Anywho, I support it!

Palin489 wrote:

I can't see Amia doing much beyond tabletop snowflake anymore given it's diminished population, especially considering Amia's rich history of OOC/IC intermingling, which is only exacerbated by the slim profile of players you have anymore. Pushing player autonomy is a losing game, you're too far behind. DI really sort of nailed with with the snowflake agenda he had, and the mentionings of a pnp formula.

Is there really a point in coming back to doomsay and disparage a server you don't play on any more? Like, I get the not liking a place/game/thing any more. I get talking bad about it, if someone else were to ask your thoughts on said thing in an outside setting. But you're on the Amian forums. Do you expect people to go "Oh, okay, dudebro right" and quit en masse? Would you get some satisfaction from that? Or, perhaps only some people quit. Or perhaps no one quits. In any case, you haven't gained anything. Literally nothing.

Other than attention. Maybe a smidgen of catharsis. Eventually, those thirsts will be sated, either from you getting bored, disinterested when few take your side, or any number of etiquette pitfalls. I'd imagine you'll eventually have something more pressing to do. Until then maybe you do influence a person or two, and yet you'll likely not see them enacted as you've not really been around since... well on the forums, it looks like 2014? Any number of scenarios play out here, and I'm going to wager that Amia, in whatever form or fashion, will continue on, no more harmed or helped by your remarks or efforts. Like I said, you stick around here long enough, the trends become readable.

This is a thread about the state of the server. Yes, that will open up a lot of wounds for people and there are hard discussions to be had. As always. But if your endgame here is to somehow say something hurtful, dooming, damning, or server-ending that hasn't been said in 15 years of internet-ness, those odds do not favor your. *shrug* You do you, boo. Get whatever it is you need to get out of this. But I think the rest of us will continue to search for the constructive discussions this thread has to offer.

I have a suggestion to help improve the State of the Server;

ANYONE good with designing, scripting, or even interested in it. Please. Apply. A lot of things can change if we have a bigger team. Less burn outs, more work gets done.

Yes! We really need more people to help designing stuff!

You are not signing a life contract. You are not forced to work x hrs a week. As long as you have a little time you can invest, that is all that is needed really!

Amarice-Elaraliel wrote:

Yes! We really need more people to help designing stuff!

You are not signing a life contract. You are not forced to work x hrs a week. As long as you have a little time you can invest, that is all that is needed really!

You also get paid DCs!

And you get much love from me!

...well okay that might actually scare people off. Scratch that.

I agree with palin. Amia is very far behind other servers. It has a reputation of heavy favoritism and OOC bullshit. The players on other servers look down on amia. Some of them reminicing about the old days. If we keep up the way we are, slowly amia players will shift to other servers like sinfar and arelith to the point where there is no reason to keep amia running.

This is why we need to figure out a game plan now. It needs to be big, something different, something to keep the favoritism in check and ensure that all desires are filled. It needs to become new player friendly.

However, again, palin is right. there is nothing we can do at this point to bring in new players, because we can offer nothing for them to latch onto, especially with the current system.

So, I started trying to the toolset for shits and giggles, and this shit's fuckin' hard. Are there any good guides on how to do all the stuff that ... y'know, needs to be done?

Maverick00053 wrote:

Just a fyi, no promises or anything, but we are looking into an old project that Disco made in the past but never quite finished. It was a full scale territorial claim system with quests, npc guards, etc. Essential a zone that a DM doesn't need to be present in to assert some sort of control over. Amarice and a few others in the past did a test of it and it was apparently shaping up to be really amazing.

Once we get a chance to look into that, that might open some doors which I think will appease a lot of people. If that doesn't go through because of us being unable to figure out/resurrect the script then we might consider implementing a somewhat more limited island or two that is a free for all when it comes to claiming stuff, using the current rental system to build out bases, etc. Ideally things could be taken over and flipped within a fair system while still offering a more lawless land to do your own thing in.

That sounds fucking awesome and I'd like to play something like that.

The main problem I see is all-star political PC's who play house instead of playing D&D, using DM support and armies of -enter settlement here- to take over the islands, and thus negating the whole "let mechanics rule in this area" idea.

You have to commit to letting mechanics matter. Otherwise it's part of the same problem. How dumb would it be if Avadon, for example, just decided "eh let's take over that island boi" and steamrolled with a DM spawning 500 Wiltunners to take over an island, from the 4 players that managed to attain control?

That sort of thing - DM's helping players steamroll each other in half-assed events - has killed a lot of motivation for people over the years, and you all need to be aware of that.

Amarice-Elaraliel wrote:

And you get much love from me!

The Little Dragon wrote:

I agree with palin. Amia is very far behind other servers. It has a reputation of heavy favoritism and OOC bullshit. The players on other servers look down on amia. Some of them reminicing about the old days. If we keep up the way we are, slowly amia players will shift to other servers like sinfar and arelith to the point where there is no reason to keep amia running.

You gotta, gotta, gotta get over this fear of people going elsewhere. And I say "you" but I'm speaking to many others. The point is not to steal or steal back players from other servers, but to make us the best at what we are. People play other servers. People play multiple servers. We're not competing with Sinfar any more than a giftcard store is competing with a martial aid shop at the strip mall. There is audience overlap, but not an exclusive, mutual pool. I'm never going to play Arelith because I don't enjoy medieval Sims. Likewise, there are Arelithians than will never play Amia for many valid differences in taste. But there are people who will play both, when both are living up to their own potentials. We simply have to work on ours.

Larger playerbases help with RP. There's more people to RP with. More opportunities. We want that. But it is not the end-all be-all. And the only "point" in the server running is that Disco PBUH continues to host it. Given his distance, I don't think he's eyeing player numbers, waiting to flip a switch. Maybe you have to live through a few Amian "endtimes" to gain the perspective. There will always be problems and always ways to fix them, but you get no where by only saying things are pointless. If you've got some actionable ideas, I am right there with you.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=89410

CratzBlade113 wrote:

So, I started trying to the toolset for shits and giggles, and this shit's fuckin' hard. Are there any good guides on how to do all the stuff that ... y'know, needs to be done?

MrHansonVideos has plenty of good NWN and Aurora Toolset turtorials.

Quote:

The main problem I see is all-star political PC's who play house instead of playing D&D, using DM support and armies of -enter settlement here- to take over the islands, and thus negating the whole "let mechanics rule in this area" idea.

No really, do we still have those? There aren't but a handful of PC politicians active. Either way, that's a pretty obvious pitfall that I'd give the Devs and DMs the benefit of the doubt in avoiding. I agree, if you were to override the mechanics of this suggested area/game style, it would fall apart. But given that the design specifically made with the intent of not needing DM support, I think it's pretty obvious that something like that will be avoided. Good points to remember though. Player autonomy is something we can always benefit to keep in mind.

To be honest I don't know if we do still have those because the server population is kinda low.

Just something to keep in mind, as it has happened before (though not with this kind of area).

I really, really hate comparing other servers to eachother. As I said each one as their own uniqueness that makes them fun.

However I'm going to say this and that's it:

Sinfar is a sandbox server. It has really high players because DMs do a handful of things. For example all they do is fill request, test areas, and handle disputes OOCly. Aside from this you can do what you like. Build a House, have any character concept you want (even if it is completely insane and goes against the laws of DND). But people enjoy it because there are absolutely no restrictions.

Arelith is unique because of their scripts, dedicated playerbase, freedom (as explained ^^ a few post up). In addition there are some creativity freedoms.

Amia is unique because we have actual DM Attention. We can break the barrier of the mechanics IG. If you want to take a trip to the Elemental Plane of Fire, poke a DM. Wait a few days. If you want to visit Limbo, go ahead. Our DMs work freely to provide a richer RP environment than players can achieve by themselves.

I played them all. Name a server I've visited. Amia might not be the most technologically advanced in the sense of Scripts, Custom Content and everything. But it offers something some servers don't, and its partly why a lot of us are here.

I'm not disrespecting any server. I love NWN. If you play it clearly you do too. Enough said.

tbh, I cannot really remember any "super PC using an army to invade an evil settlement".

I know it happened years and years ago. But in the last few years? Who invaded who?

The only place that was invaded at all (and even that was years ago) was Ostland.

Tarkuul's never been invaded. Wiltun's never been invaded. The Fort has never been invaded (yes I know some people caused some nonsense there when things were not 100% fixed yet, but we all ruled that did not actually happen).

On the other hand Cordor had (even if only the outskirts) taken damage by evil PC without army. The Shrine back then had taken quite some damage by PC work, albeit with NPC. Guldorand has been completely wrecked by team evil. Kampo has been heavily damaged by team evil.

So (as said, ignoring things done years and years ago) I cannot remember a single time where we in the last years simply let PC's with an army march vs. an evil or non-good city and raze it to the ground.

As for favorism, we try to actually heavily police that. The feeling itself can probably never be erased fully, because some people who are unlucky with time-zones, or DMs of their areas leaving the team several times, etc will always feel that they are on the low end of getting attention. Which I can understand, however really is not due to anything personal. (Not that that helps them, I understand that). There was an issue of favorism on Amia in the early days, I won't deny that. (we are speaking of many years back though). We had DM on amia abusing their position, I won't deny that either. They were removed. Often naturally, after the damage was done. But such is the way of things, I'm afraid. It is always a bit of a gamble when someone is taken on board. No matter how much you check someone "beforehand" you never have any guarantee on how they will behave as a DM, in the end. I can assure you though, other servers have and had that issue too. Sadly. We are not the only server who had to remove staff. And usually when it is found out, naturally the damage is already done.

However, we do take such offenses very seriously, if they pop up.

The Fort had to fend off a 30+ pc strong invasion force.

We won with 5.

I'm not interested in a discussion about favoritism, that wasn't the point I was trying to make, I'm just saying that if you guys put a place in the server that is able to be controlled through mechanical, scripted means, not requiring a DM, I just mean that no PC should be able - for whatever reason you guys can make up to justify their inability to do so - to take it over using means other than the scripted mechanics that are the purpose of the area.

That's really all I mean.

You can ignore anything else I said if it's interpreted as throwing shade at people, because Avadon was used as a generic example simply because - if I'm not mistaken - he is a PC that is still in power of a settlement, not because he has done something I consider wrong or anything.

I'd say the same thing with Osiris when he was Castellan, but I'm no longer Castellan so I didn't use myself as an example. I would not be happy if I were able to talk the council of Tarkuul into letting me take a cadre of annihilators and take over the island which is hypothetically designed and meant to be taken over by PC's using scripted mechanics rather than DM and non-mechanical means. It would be very poor taste.

If it's an island and it's conquerable by PC's and the ownership transfers via a script and no DM's are needed, and ownership actually confers something - like a key that lets you get into a castle on the island or something - then that's awesome and it needs to be kept pure, and free from any kind of DM interaction which basically, would conceptually override the script and purpose of the island.

Otherwise I'd wonder if, should the server population bounce back, a PC might gain political power somewhere, then use that political power and organize an event with the DM to march an army into the island, and circumvent the island's function as a place where we can have conflict and politics and stuff without requiring a DM's valuable time.

Maverick00053 wrote:

Just a fyi, no promises or anything, but we are looking into an old project that Disco made in the past but never quite finished. It was a full scale territorial claim system with quests, npc guards, etc. Essential a zone that a DM doesn't need to be present in to assert some sort of control over. Amarice and a few others in the past did a test of it and it was apparently shaping up to be really amazing.

Once we get a chance to look into that, that might open some doors which I think will appease a lot of people. If that doesn't go through because of us being unable to figure out/resurrect the script then we might consider implementing a somewhat more limited island or two that is a free for all when it comes to claiming stuff, using the current rental system to build out bases, etc. Ideally things could be taken over and flipped within a fair system while still offering a more lawless land to do your own thing in.

This sounds like it would be an amazing start toward allowing players to build the story and progression of things of their own volition without the need for DM oversight at every turn. The fact is the DM team shouldn't be needed for every little detail and it burns out both the players -and- DMs involved.

I know this will come off as a controversial suggestion but make literally all of these areas full pvp enabled and make sure factions are enabled for all of them so that when people commit acts of violence they have reputation hits in those areas. In some cases officials could get a widget to make them immune to this reputation hit and you could also design the NPCs so that they join in the fight.

An even more controversial suggestion: Make the NPCs incredibly hardcore but intentionally killable so that players can pick them off.

LibrisMortis_666 wrote:

Amia might not be the most technologically advanced in the sense of Scripts, Custom Content and everything. But it offers something some servers don't, and its partly why a lot of us are here.

Simply having active DM's isn't unique and there are other servers with active DM's.

One of the old draws for Amia was "You can request custom shit." If you want to be real, then besides active DM's, the unique thing Amia had was "You can get personal, custom, scripted abilities if you're a good roleplayer," and that's a fucking AWESOME concept.

It was one of the things that made me try the server years ago. Now that it's gone, the most noteworthy thing about Amia are the mechanics of spells and feats that have changed from vanilla, and several servers have changes to vanilla NwN as well. So....

Yeah, Amia just isn't that special. That's why you need to -change- it and make it special. The island idea would be a fucking GREAT way to start to achieve that again.

bobofwestoregonusa wrote:

An even more controversial suggestion: Make the NPCs incredibly hardcore but intentionally killable so that players can pick them off.

Yes, please. Less DM oversight IG is a good thing. DM's should be worried about unique plots, requests, and development, and rule upkeep - this area should not require DM's to spend their time worrying about it.

Imagine if, on this island, you had a script in place to allow the controlling players/faction to spend money and hire more people for the island. The people would be reasonably decent NPC's and killable, and would be involved in the process of taking over the island. If they all die, you have to spend money to hire more.

This would also provide story for mercenary companies in Amia's storyling.

In other words: Fuckin' yes pls

bobofwestoregonusa wrote:

Maverick00053 wrote:

Just a fyi, no promises or anything, but we are looking into an old project that Disco made in the past but never quite finished. It was a full scale territorial claim system with quests, npc guards, etc. Essential a zone that a DM doesn't need to be present in to assert some sort of control over. Amarice and a few others in the past did a test of it and it was apparently shaping up to be really amazing.

Once we get a chance to look into that, that might open some doors which I think will appease a lot of people. If that doesn't go through because of us being unable to figure out/resurrect the script then we might consider implementing a somewhat more limited island or two that is a free for all when it comes to claiming stuff, using the current rental system to build out bases, etc. Ideally things could be taken over and flipped within a fair system while still offering a more lawless land to do your own thing in.

This sounds like it would be an amazing start toward allowing players to build the story and progression of things of their own volition without the need for DM oversight at every turn. The fact is the DM team shouldn't be needed for every little detail and it burns out both the players -and- DMs involved.

I know this will come off as a controversial suggestion but make literally all of these areas full pvp enabled and make sure factions are enabled for all of them so that when people commit acts of violence they have reputation hits in those areas. In some cases officials could get a widget to make them immune to this reputation hit and you could also design the NPCs so that they join in the fight.

An even more controversial suggestion: Make the NPCs incredibly hardcore but intentionally killable so that players can pick them off.

The idea was to make all NPC on the isle (except for maybe the bartender, as I am not sure if it would cause issues with a shop) attackable, yes. Ideally, if we get it working, for that reason another idea was to also have most of the NPC draw from name generator (similar to our "colored spawns, just with less silly names") each reset to represent that not always the same people hang out there again. If that is possible, I am not sure. Considering it works with the spawns though, I have some hope however!

And yes, it would a full PvP area, seeing the main idea was that you can conquer parts of it, or if that does not work, make it rentable and shapable instead. However with the same risk of it not being "untouchable" like the house rentings.

What we are also looking into, and hopefully can figure it out, is hiring NPC Sellswords/mercenaries for "your" area. Alas again with the risk that they are just sellswords and of course will not bring quite the same as a seasoned adventurer.

No one answered my question yet so I expect no one to do that. But what is it people want to be able to do without a DM? NWN is not a MMORPG.

I want to be able to run a faction, get involved in politics with settlements, have a faction base outside of settlements, and have faction warfare and conflict without a DM touching the server.

DM's should not be required to micromanage the server. This is literally the only server I've ever seen it on and it has always been a drag for both DM's and players, because not all players enjoy having to get DM's involved with everything because it slows things down and takes you out of the moment, and DM's get burned out frequently.

With this island idea, I could form a faction, get involved in politics with other players to get a following, form plots (in the evil villain sense, i.e. "I am plotting against people") and conquer an island without DM's having to touch anything, because it would all be mechanically supported.

OR, I could fail, which would also be fun because then I'd probably, like, get captured by goody PC's who would torture kindly ask me questions about my evil plots and shit, if I were to try this on Osiris. Which, again, is cool.

It would be awesome and fluid and fun.

MisterLich wrote:

I want to be able to run a faction, get involved in politics with settlements, have a faction base outside of settlements, and have faction warfare and conflict without a DM touching the server.

DM's should not be required to micromanage the server. This is literally the only server I've ever seen it on and it has always been a drag for both DM's and players, because not all players enjoy having to get DM's involved with everything because it slows things down and takes you out of the moment, and DM's get burned out frequently.

With this island idea, I could form a faction, get involved in politics with other players to get a following, form plots (in the evil villain sense, i.e. "I am plotting against people") and conquer an island without DM's having to touch anything, because it would all be mechanically supported.

OR, I could fail, which would also be fun because then I'd probably, like, get captured by goody PC's who would torture kindly ask me questions about my evil plots and shit, if I were to try this on Osiris. Which, again, is cool.

It would be awesome and fluid and fun.

You can do this faction thing without a DM, no other server allows you do form a faction and take control of an area without a DM over looking it, If it does, its not an RP server or it has severe chaos and problematic ooc with players argueing and fighting since no one polices their nonsense.

And I mean control an area as in Ultrinnan or Cordor or other bigger place.

Hell, Budly "owns" a hill according to himself, no pappers but he officially claimed it and no DM objected to it.

EDIT: I believe we need a good balance. Dms should not be needed for everything but we do not want anarchy either with players doing whatever they want and messy faction messes where they just end up murdering all NPCs in a settlement and then "proclaim" it their own. Especially not on a lvl 30 server where it will become a PvP haven of strong build joining up in a faction, murdering and spreading havoc. That kind of anarchy is not what we want.

Conceptually this island would be controlled by a central town of rogues/pirates that would be powerful enough to oppose any major Amian faction from messing with it while at the same time not caring about what adventurers do as long as they pay their rent. That would avoid any of the above cases of NPCs being marched in by cities or having DM influence in the area above general maintenance.

Amia is behind the times, so to say, because we have always had a rather large and active DM team. Most servers couldn't quite match that so they went a head and automated a lot of the systems. Obviously the problem we are having is burn out. We just can't possibly help everyone on which is the ultimate shame and we do need to take a step in that direction. I think having the central isles of Amia with their DM plots and oversight while having the wilds would be a big step.

We do need to find a balance though and it will take time and tweaking.

You are kind of a contradiction of your own point. You did not need a DM to claim the hill. Of course, it's not official, but you do, to a certain extent, control, or at least try to control, that area. Of course, anything larger is difficult, because areas always belong to someone, but a small island off the coast, or a small piece of land nobody cares about... even a single PC can do that, apparently.

And factions technically are exactly not policed by anyone. They start being policed when NPCs come in, but just the faction by itself is just a group of people who want to play together. Forums require hierarchy, simply because you need one person to take care of stuff. But I could start a 'faction' without a faction base, and without a faction forum, simply by finding a few players, having some agenda (perhaps even just to patrol the island and keep it free of evil) and being active. Clearing roads or whatnot, participating in DM events as a semi-closed group, being part of the bigger event group. Techincally, it would be easy. That would be a faction that would require no, or very little DM attention, and would not need any DM recognition.
A group I was in for a while was planning to infiltrate another PC faction, and usurp some of the power. Due to availibility, it didn't happen too much, in the end, but once again, very little DMing needed, because you are mostly working with PCs, at least at the beginning.

Yes, if you really want the 'typical' faction of 'hurr durr, I control an area, and it's mine' and simply wants an area for the sake of an area, you will need a DM, quite a lot. Factions based in a city, especially if they are part of the official structure of the city (Tarkuul, Kohl, Bendir, Winya, the Grove to an extent), you'll need DMs to play the NPCs, but even then, the faction leader decides what the faction does, and it shouldn't really be an NPC (DM) that comes up with the ideas for assingments for the group.

A faction itself does not need as much DM legitimacy as people make it seem like. A faction is simply a group of likeminded PCs, doing something. Back when the Shrine was active, liek half a year ago, I could have made a radical Shevarashian/Pitchfork-wielding mob/Lolthite Drow faction that simply wants to kill all Drow, and thinks the shrine is bad. Sometimes it would mean picking off Drow while they are strolling through Amia forest, for example. But once again, no DM needed, if everyone behaves and doesn't start raging.

And the idea of that island would simply mean one more place where a DM is not needed to fulfill a certain type of RP. A group defending their claim of the island, a group wanting to storm it and steal it from the previous people. And it would actually (possibly) be a pretty cool 'faction base' without taking up too much time of the devs and DMs because of the need to have a base, and an official faction and all. It would, in theory, be more work now in order to have less work every time a fledgling faction comes up.

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