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Commie
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 Posted: Sun, Feb 26 2017, 18:35 PM |
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Player
Joined: 02 Dec 2015
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Many seemed keen on discussing evil and its place in the setting and how it's treated on Amia. This is the place to do so.
_________________ ANT ALARM Count Kaldrjarn Pitt | Archmage Kilmar | Sarguk Morderer ANT ALARM MisterLich wrote: First of all, my brain is one of the best here.
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ZoltanTheRed
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Posted: Sun, Feb 26 2017, 18:36 PM |
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DM
Joined: 03 Jul 2008
Location: USA
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On Amia, people are free to play their characters as long as they play according to their character(this includes roleplaying their classes, etc) and their alignment. We do not judge people out of character for the choices of their characters and do not punish them for picking good, neutral, or evil. Every player, IC and OOC, is bound by the same rule-set, and as such is bound by the same set of consequences. It is a two-way street. If I see anyone being bullied(something I had the misfortune of witnessing recently) for choosing to play a specific type of PC that has been decided is "kosher" by the DM team, I will show said bully that consequences are indeed a two-way street.
This is not up for debate. This is not something I will make concessions on. Every player who plays on Amia and abides by its rules is welcomed here.
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Budly
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Posted: Sun, Feb 26 2017, 19:01 PM |
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Player
Joined: 04 Jan 2006
Location: Hin Town
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ZoltanTheRed wrote: On Amia, people are free to play their characters as long as they play according to their character(this includes roleplaying their classes, etc) and their alignment. We do not judge people out of character for the choices of their characters and do not punish them for picking good, neutral, or evil. Every player, IC and OOC, is bound by the same rule-set, and as such is bound by the same set of consequences. It is a two-way street. If I see anyone being bullied(something I had the misfortune of witnessing recently) for choosing to play a specific type of PC that has been decided is "kosher" by the DM team, I will show said bully that consequences are indeed a two-way street.
This is not up for debate. This is not something I will make concessions on. Every player who plays on Amia and abides by its rules is welcomed here. Is it okay to atleast discuss it and put forward our opinions?
_________________
Plays:
Sylveera : Sun Elven fury packed in an Arcane Archer, not a Drow, promise.
Tetrik : Greed incarnate in a Duergar.
Budly : Has gone to a better place.
Barrililath : Shadowy Drow, probably less Drow than Sylv ever be.
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ZoltanTheRed
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Posted: Sun, Feb 26 2017, 19:02 PM |
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DM
Joined: 03 Jul 2008
Location: USA
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Oh yeah, as long as people are respectful. I feel like discussion is healthy as long as people can remain calm about it.
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OpenTheRift
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Posted: Sun, Feb 26 2017, 19:07 PM |
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Player
Joined: 17 Feb 2014
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Mmm it's going to be a spicy Sunday.
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bad man
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Opustus
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Posted: Sun, Feb 26 2017, 19:19 PM |
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Developer
Joined: 18 Jun 2006
Location: Finland
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Today I made my first foray into the Underdark and the change in the atmosphere was palpable. Only how the NPCs and the areas are created, it seems like a much harsher environment than anything we have on the surface. How's the r00lplay down there? I hazard a guess it's rather inactive, but do you hold events on a regular basis, have run-ins with the surfacers, etc.?
_________________
Every time you clock in the morning, I feel you just want to kill
All my innocence while ignoring my purpose to persevere as a better person
I know you heard this and probably in fear
-Kendrick Lamar, good kid
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ZoltanTheRed
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Posted: Sun, Feb 26 2017, 19:27 PM |
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DM
Joined: 03 Jul 2008
Location: USA
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It sees people from time to time. I'd like it if there were more folks running around down there. It's not particularly unwelcoming OOC, either. At least, last I checked.
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Budly
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Posted: Sun, Feb 26 2017, 20:00 PM |
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Player
Joined: 04 Jan 2006
Location: Hin Town
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I find it a bit weird that people complain on the pitchfork and torches mentality evil get. What is it one expect to get when one do something twisted? Let us say, sacrifice a newborn child, taken from their mothers bosom late at night?
Evil do exist in FR and this is what I see as my pillar for reasoning about hunting evil to exctinction. You can pin point that evil exist within the Abyss and the corrupt angels of Hell. It is very real and common. To let evil inside your house is very very odd. Many races also have no redeeming factors, no gods who can pursuade them not to do evil deeds, but rather! Aim to do these deeds. Gruumsh is not Eilistraee, there is no such god for them. Also do cultures clash, some cultures are pure evil in how they do their things while others are neutral or even good in most of their deeds.
Nor do the good dieties and factions be toothless armsless people who do nothing but heal and get corrupted or beaten up by evil doers.
When a nest of evil springs up, neighbours do not tend to shrug and leave it be. This is trouble, you aim to remove it or close it off. To not allow it to become one of those many places that has grown so powerful that they now prove a real threat or cannot be removed.
“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” is something I think is very true in FR, if you allow evil to wander your roads, under your laws, protected and well fed in your taverns. You do nothing and allow it to fester, corrupt your people and live off your society like a leech. When good people smile and greet the half orcs wandering down the trade routes outside their gates, upon a road they allow evil to win. The tables can be turned and said about evil. But then evil tend to be much more hostile towards non evil in most things.
_________________
Plays:
Sylveera : Sun Elven fury packed in an Arcane Archer, not a Drow, promise.
Tetrik : Greed incarnate in a Duergar.
Budly : Has gone to a better place.
Barrililath : Shadowy Drow, probably less Drow than Sylv ever be.
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Terallis
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Posted: Sun, Feb 26 2017, 20:36 PM |
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Player
Joined: 30 Oct 2014
Location: Ontario, Canada
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Well, something I've really noticed with this is that a lot of good aligned characters on the server look for any opportunity to actually label someone as evil, as well. Good exists. Evil exists. But not all, of either, are so open and out there that they are either a shiny pillar or a pit of darkness and despair. It likewise comes down to the fact that, as a whole, D&D is very black and white with sorting morality into a mere 9 "alignments" on two axes (law/chaos and good/evil). It's very difficult to really make a character that is entirely one of these without carrying aspects of other alignments. Just like in the real world, there is absolutely no black and white, but only shades of grey.
On that note, good and evil really are just a broad way of looking at things. If all evil were open warmongering baby killers, and all good were shining pillars of good and selflessness, things would be extremely boring. Not to mention there would never be peace of ANY kind, anywhere. Good characters will do evil deeds, just as evil characters will do good deeds. Likewise, neutral characters will do both good and evil deeds. It happens. It also comes down to a very real concept of balance, where without one, the other can't exist. Of course, that's a whole other discussion that's far more philosophical than I'd like to get.
All this also comes from someone who's only ever really played good aligned characters, and almost never played evil. Evil doesn't exist just to be snuffed out by good. Of course, good also doesn't exist to be snuffed out by evil. And neutral doesn't exist just to stand about and watch from the sidelines. There are consequences for actions done, and that's that. The usual thing of "talk shit, get hit". This goes for both sides of the coin, just like everything else I've stated as well. However, it starts to become excessive with the mindset of simply looking for a reason to kill an evil character because they aren't open about their actions or otherwise, and that they need to be put down because they are evil aligned. Though, that's also the realm of metagaming the alignment, to an extent.
In the end, there are secretive good characters and secretive evil characters. Otherwise criminal organizations, infiltrators, and otherwise couldn't exist. And secretive also doesn't mean locking themselves away from society and plan in the safety of whatever base they have. They can be normal people. The friendly neighbor next door could easily be a heartless murderer, but because they don't do it so publicly, they're just seen as that friendly, caring neighbor. Motivations, secrecy, and otherwise all play a part in things. Labeling evil and then stating that all evil needs to be wiped to extinction is far too broad of a mindset. And, in fact, many actions done to prevent evil tend to become far more evil than whatever "evil" act was perceived. That honestly goes for most of the "good" I see on the server, as well.
_________________ 
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Budly
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Posted: Sun, Feb 26 2017, 20:41 PM |
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Player
Joined: 04 Jan 2006
Location: Hin Town
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But Alignment system makes it stiff. Chaotic Evil is mostly baby eating psychos. If you take it by what it says it can be seen as such.
_________________
Plays:
Sylveera : Sun Elven fury packed in an Arcane Archer, not a Drow, promise.
Tetrik : Greed incarnate in a Duergar.
Budly : Has gone to a better place.
Barrililath : Shadowy Drow, probably less Drow than Sylv ever be.
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Terallis
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Posted: Sun, Feb 26 2017, 20:45 PM |
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Player
Joined: 30 Oct 2014
Location: Ontario, Canada
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Budly wrote: But Alignment system makes it stiff. Chaotic Evil is mostly baby eating psychos. If you take it by what it says it can be seen as such. Honestly, not really. Chaotic Evil can still be secretive in its own right. Just that they might revel in the destruction and murder when it occurs, or similar. In the general community, that sort of thing is more known as Chaotic Stupid, in all honesty. At the same time, they could be baby eating psychos, but not be extremely open about it, either. They could easily sneak into a person's house at night, brutally murder the family, eat the baby, and get out with none the wiser. Then go about their everyday life. There are ways to be secretive in any alignment, or even open without being obvious about it. _________________
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Budly
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Posted: Sun, Feb 26 2017, 20:47 PM |
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Player
Joined: 04 Jan 2006
Location: Hin Town
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Terallis wrote: Budly wrote: But Alignment system makes it stiff. Chaotic Evil is mostly baby eating psychos. If you take it by what it says it can be seen as such. Honestly, not really. Chaotic Evil can still be secretive in its own right. Just that they might revel in the destruction and murder when it occurs, or similar. In the general community, that sort of thing is more known as Chaotic Stupid, in all honesty. At the same time, they could be baby eating psychos, but not be extremely open about it, either. They could easily sneak into a person's house at night, brutally murder the family, eat the baby, and get out with none the wiser. Then go about their everyday life. There are ways to be secretive in any alignment, or even open without being obvious about it. Well, DnD is not really built around the deepest of roleplaying. It is a stiff level based system where things are what they are 99 out of 100 times.
_________________
Plays:
Sylveera : Sun Elven fury packed in an Arcane Archer, not a Drow, promise.
Tetrik : Greed incarnate in a Duergar.
Budly : Has gone to a better place.
Barrililath : Shadowy Drow, probably less Drow than Sylv ever be.
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Commie
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Posted: Sun, Feb 26 2017, 20:51 PM |
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Player
Joined: 02 Dec 2015
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Budly wrote: Terallis wrote: Budly wrote: But Alignment system makes it stiff. Chaotic Evil is mostly baby eating psychos. If you take it by what it says it can be seen as such. Honestly, not really. Chaotic Evil can still be secretive in its own right. Just that they might revel in the destruction and murder when it occurs, or similar. In the general community, that sort of thing is more known as Chaotic Stupid, in all honesty. At the same time, they could be baby eating psychos, but not be extremely open about it, either. They could easily sneak into a person's house at night, brutally murder the family, eat the baby, and get out with none the wiser. Then go about their everyday life. There are ways to be secretive in any alignment, or even open without being obvious about it. Well, DnD is not really built around the deepest of roleplaying. It is a stiff level based system where things are what they are 99 out of 100 times. I really disagree here. _________________ ANT ALARM Count Kaldrjarn Pitt | Archmage Kilmar | Sarguk Morderer ANT ALARM MisterLich wrote: First of all, my brain is one of the best here.
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Budly
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Posted: Sun, Feb 26 2017, 20:54 PM |
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Player
Joined: 04 Jan 2006
Location: Hin Town
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Commie wrote:
I really disagree here.
Well, there is much better systems for deeper character development and RP that can have higher meaning than being tied to alignment, class and levels.
_________________
Plays:
Sylveera : Sun Elven fury packed in an Arcane Archer, not a Drow, promise.
Tetrik : Greed incarnate in a Duergar.
Budly : Has gone to a better place.
Barrililath : Shadowy Drow, probably less Drow than Sylv ever be.
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Terallis
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Posted: Sun, Feb 26 2017, 20:56 PM |
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Player
Joined: 30 Oct 2014
Location: Ontario, Canada
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Yeah. Honestly, it's only like that if you make it that way. You could be the big stereotype of an alignment, or you could play it your own way based on the criteria. Chaotic Evil, for instance, is on the Chaotic and Evil ends of their respective axes. Chaotic doesn't mean crazy and open about everything. Play the chaos and play the evil. They can be very broad and countless ways to play. Limiting to the general stereotype listed in the Player's Handbook for each alignment makes the game extremely boring and uninteresting.
_________________
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Budly
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Posted: Sun, Feb 26 2017, 20:58 PM |
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Player
Joined: 04 Jan 2006
Location: Hin Town
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Terallis wrote: Yeah. Honestly, it's only like that if you make it that way. You could be the big stereotype of an alignment, or you could play it your own way based on the criteria. Chaotic Evil, for instance, is on the Chaotic and Evil ends of their respective axes. Chaotic doesn't mean crazy and open about everything. Play the chaos and play the evil. They can be very broad and countless ways to play. Limiting to the general stereotype listed in the Player's Handbook for each alignment makes the game extremely boring and uninteresting. Well there is still much more stiffer holdings of what you do in this system than let us say GURPS or the Swedish Drakar och Demoner Trudvang system. To me, the whole notion that "Maybe this person is not half bad!" when they carry the symbols of some twisted godess and eats on a human leg is a bit weird cause "Things are not black and white, maybe this one follower of the Twisted Godess of Bones is a good person!" is a bit weird. "The other 200 Orcs I met was crazy but this one PC player here is probably not a bad Orc!"
_________________
Plays:
Sylveera : Sun Elven fury packed in an Arcane Archer, not a Drow, promise.
Tetrik : Greed incarnate in a Duergar.
Budly : Has gone to a better place.
Barrililath : Shadowy Drow, probably less Drow than Sylv ever be.
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Karradon
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Posted: Sun, Feb 26 2017, 21:03 PM |
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Player
Joined: 26 Jan 2014
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Honestly, the same could be said about Drow, Budly, and you seem to have no problem accepting them as it is while it's common for them to be utterly evil, and in actual FR lore the "Good" ones are heavily outnumbered by the Underdark ones.
So explain to me why Good Drows are allowed to exist while Orcs can't?
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Budly
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Posted: Sun, Feb 26 2017, 21:07 PM |
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Player
Joined: 04 Jan 2006
Location: Hin Town
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Karradon wrote: Honestly, the same could be said about Drow, Budly, and you seem to have no problem accepting them as it is while it's common for them to be utterly evil, and in actual FR lore the "Good" ones are heavily outnumbered by the Underdark ones.
So explain to me why Good Drows are allowed to exist while Orcs can't? It is like Budly Bundly says. Drow are mostly evil, but they are Elven and Elves to him are one of the most high standing races. Humans are okay, but they got nothing on Elves. And the big deal breaker is that The Drow have a godess that can redeem them. He is influenced by this. Orcs have Gruumsh, that is it. There is no good godess, there might be other Orc gods but they are inherently Evil and so far away from "good" or "neutral" races that they can never adjust to the civilized world even if they are not evil. Beside that, it did tend to be no Orcs around when I played years ago and most Drow kept to the Shrine or inside Ultrinnan which so conveniently got destroyed for some reason. Most Drow that was good was known about by others.
_________________
Plays:
Sylveera : Sun Elven fury packed in an Arcane Archer, not a Drow, promise.
Tetrik : Greed incarnate in a Duergar.
Budly : Has gone to a better place.
Barrililath : Shadowy Drow, probably less Drow than Sylv ever be.
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Terallis
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Posted: Sun, Feb 26 2017, 21:08 PM |
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Player
Joined: 30 Oct 2014
Location: Ontario, Canada
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I'm not saying they're good people. But often times, their deeds may not even be publicly known, either. Sure there are other systems that better represent things, but we're also playing by this particular system. And at the same time, even using a system that sorts and entire moral spectrum into nine alignments can very expansive in its own right. Just need to think outside the box. There are those descriptions in the PHB, but they are also very broad stereotypes of the alignments as a whole. Of course, in the case of someone who wears the symbol of a super destructive and evil deity, openly, or even goes crazy with explaining their misdeeds as achievements, they're very openly evil and people would act accordingly. But that's not the same for all evil characters. Just because someone is evil aligned, as well, doesn't mean they are bad people as a whole. That may sound weird, but again, motivations and other factors always come into things. A person who, for instance, is very kind and caring, and not as an act. But on the side will root out swift and painful vengeance on those enemies who've wronged them would generally be considered widely as "evil" in the sake of the alignment system. Putting those enemies through torture or similar in their acts of vengeance, but still remaining as that overall kind and loving person.
_________________
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Budly
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Posted: Sun, Feb 26 2017, 21:10 PM |
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Player
Joined: 04 Jan 2006
Location: Hin Town
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Terallis wrote: I'm not saying they're good people. But often times, their deeds may not even be publicly known, either. Sure there are other systems that better represent things, but we're also playing by this particular system. And at the same time, even using a system that sorts and entire moral spectrum into nine alignments can very expansive in its own right. Just need to think outside the box. There are those descriptions in the PHB, but they are also very broad stereotypes of the alignments as a whole. Of course, in the case of someone who wears the symbol of a super destructive and evil deity, openly, or even goes crazy with explaining their misdeeds as achievements, they're very openly evil and people would act accordingly. But that's not the same for all evil characters. Just because someone is evil aligned, as well, doesn't mean they are bad people as a whole. That may sound weird, but again, motivations and other factors always come into things. A person who, for instance, is very kind and caring, and not as an act. But on the side will root out swift and painful vengeance on those enemies who've wronged them would generally be considered widely as "evil" in the sake of the alignment system. Putting those enemies through torture or similar in their acts of vengeance, but still remaining as that overall kind and loving person. I have considered a concept of a evil aligned character hunting proper evil. But I skipped it since Evil is so open anyway around here so it would be no difference. Why bother?
_________________
Plays:
Sylveera : Sun Elven fury packed in an Arcane Archer, not a Drow, promise.
Tetrik : Greed incarnate in a Duergar.
Budly : Has gone to a better place.
Barrililath : Shadowy Drow, probably less Drow than Sylv ever be.
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Karradon
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Posted: Sun, Feb 26 2017, 21:16 PM |
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Player
Joined: 26 Jan 2014
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I'll just drop one last thing and then i'm out of here: This is a game, there are people on the other side of the character, what point would it be if evil would be permanently hunted down until no one played them anymore? the game would become quite boring with tea parties at certain places that will remain unmentioned for now.
Good is always winning during events, even if the situation is hopeless some deus ex machina thing happens and bam, Good wins, Evil loses.
So instead of attacking people OOCly for doing evil things ICly: Let them enjoy it, they are in the minority as it is.
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Budly
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Posted: Sun, Feb 26 2017, 21:19 PM |
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Player
Joined: 04 Jan 2006
Location: Hin Town
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Karradon wrote: I'll just drop one last thing and then i'm out of here: This is a game, there are people on the other side of the character, what point would it be if evil would be permanently hunted down until no one played them anymore? the game would become quite boring with tea parties at certain places that will remain unmentioned for now.
Good is always winning during events, even if the situation is hopeless some deus ex machina thing happens and bam, Good wins, Evil loses.
So instead of attacking people OOCly for doing evil things ICly: Let them enjoy it, they are in the minority as it is. You want us to allow the Llothites, Banites and others to openly run about with their banners out and not touch them cause they done no evil? Cause there is players behind the screen?
_________________
Plays:
Sylveera : Sun Elven fury packed in an Arcane Archer, not a Drow, promise.
Tetrik : Greed incarnate in a Duergar.
Budly : Has gone to a better place.
Barrililath : Shadowy Drow, probably less Drow than Sylv ever be.
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Karradon
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Posted: Sun, Feb 26 2017, 21:21 PM |
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Player
Joined: 26 Jan 2014
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Budly wrote: Karradon wrote: I'll just drop one last thing and then i'm out of here: This is a game, there are people on the other side of the character, what point would it be if evil would be permanently hunted down until no one played them anymore? the game would become quite boring with tea parties at certain places that will remain unmentioned for now.
Good is always winning during events, even if the situation is hopeless some deus ex machina thing happens and bam, Good wins, Evil loses.
So instead of attacking people OOCly for doing evil things ICly: Let them enjoy it, they are in the minority as it is. You want us to allow the Llothites, Banites and others to openly run about with their banners out and not touch them cause they done no evil? Cause there is players behind the screen? No, I want you to accept that everyone has his own view of good and evil and stop bashing people OOCly when someone does anything evil, what's evil for you or your character is something "good" for other people, and there are neutral grounds that will remain such (Kampo's and the Crouching Lemure monastery for one) and it's always the "good" ones that violate that neutrality, makes you think if they are really the good ones.
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Budly
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Posted: Sun, Feb 26 2017, 21:30 PM |
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Player
Joined: 04 Jan 2006
Location: Hin Town
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Karradon wrote: Budly wrote: Karradon wrote: I'll just drop one last thing and then i'm out of here: This is a game, there are people on the other side of the character, what point would it be if evil would be permanently hunted down until no one played them anymore? the game would become quite boring with tea parties at certain places that will remain unmentioned for now.
Good is always winning during events, even if the situation is hopeless some deus ex machina thing happens and bam, Good wins, Evil loses.
So instead of attacking people OOCly for doing evil things ICly: Let them enjoy it, they are in the minority as it is. You want us to allow the Llothites, Banites and others to openly run about with their banners out and not touch them cause they done no evil? Cause there is players behind the screen? No, I want you to accept that everyone has his own view of good and evil and stop bashing people OOCly when someone does anything evil, what's evil for you or your character is something "good" for other people, and there are neutral grounds that will remain such (Kampo's and the Crouching Lemure monastery for one) and it's always the "good" ones that violate that neutrality, makes you think if they are really the good ones. Well, I will not find these fiting. To me the notion of neutral ground is not existing. But I have to respect the ways of the server.
_________________
Plays:
Sylveera : Sun Elven fury packed in an Arcane Archer, not a Drow, promise.
Tetrik : Greed incarnate in a Duergar.
Budly : Has gone to a better place.
Barrililath : Shadowy Drow, probably less Drow than Sylv ever be.
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Karradon
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Posted: Sun, Feb 26 2017, 21:34 PM |
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Player
Joined: 26 Jan 2014
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Ah, so if two Nations have a war and there's a third one in between them, it's fair game to kill all of them too because you don't believe in the notion of neutral grounds?
After all, they are either with us or the others, it's really a narrow-minded black & white view, and I don't mean that in an offensive way, it's just how it is.
Edit: For Kampo's there's a real good reason for neutrality: Coins, he's a businessman, he doesn't really care if the coin comes from a good person or an evil person, It's his land, his building, his rules.
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Commie
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Posted: Sun, Feb 26 2017, 21:48 PM |
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Player
Joined: 02 Dec 2015
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The Lemur is neutral ground as its literally a "no pvp" area. It's mechanically enforced. This is a factual existence of a dm mandated neutral space. It's not up for argument.
Only the training yard allows fighting.
_________________ ANT ALARM Count Kaldrjarn Pitt | Archmage Kilmar | Sarguk Morderer ANT ALARM MisterLich wrote: First of all, my brain is one of the best here.
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Budly
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Posted: Sun, Feb 26 2017, 21:54 PM |
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Player
Joined: 04 Jan 2006
Location: Hin Town
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Karradon wrote: Ah, so if two Nations have a war and there's a third one in between them, it's fair game to kill all of them too because you don't believe in the notion of neutral grounds?
After all, they are either with us or the others, it's really a narrow-minded black & white view, and I don't mean that in an offensive way, it's just how it is.
Edit: For Kampo's there's a real good reason for neutrality: Coins, he's a businessman, he doesn't really care if the coin comes from a good person or an evil person, It's his land, his building, his rules. In a war there is only neutral grounds cause no one can reach it or wants to. I give an example. 12 riders from Kohlingen along with a large group adventurers hunt Paush, the Demon Lord from Zanshibon up the mountains. He manages to manouver down to either Kampo or Lemur. He gets inside their borders, stops, poking his tongue out and points to the ground "Ha ha! Neutral ground!". Are you telling me this group would just go "Damnit! We almost had him! Time to go home boys and girls"? This is the kind of things you see in pvp in MMOs.
_________________
Plays:
Sylveera : Sun Elven fury packed in an Arcane Archer, not a Drow, promise.
Tetrik : Greed incarnate in a Duergar.
Budly : Has gone to a better place.
Barrililath : Shadowy Drow, probably less Drow than Sylv ever be.
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Commie
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Posted: Sun, Feb 26 2017, 22:06 PM |
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Player
Joined: 02 Dec 2015
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Budly wrote: Karradon wrote: Ah, so if two Nations have a war and there's a third one in between them, it's fair game to kill all of them too because you don't believe in the notion of neutral grounds?
After all, they are either with us or the others, it's really a narrow-minded black & white view, and I don't mean that in an offensive way, it's just how it is.
Edit: For Kampo's there's a real good reason for neutrality: Coins, he's a businessman, he doesn't really care if the coin comes from a good person or an evil person, It's his land, his building, his rules. In a war there is only neutral grounds cause no one can reach it or wants to. I give an example. 12 riders from Kohlingen along with a large group adventurers hunt Paush, the Demon Lord from Zanshibon up the mountains. He manages to manouver down to either Kampo or Lemur. He gets inside their borders, stops, poking his tongue out and points to the ground "Ha ha! Neutral ground!". Are you telling me this group would just go "Damnit! We almost had him! Time to go home boys and girls"? This is the kind of things you see in pvp in MMOs. If everyone was a pc this is what would happen as the Lemur is a no pvp area and like wiltun you cannot fight other players there. It's impossible. So yes this is how it works ig in the lore and in mechanics and your rp should reflect it. _________________ ANT ALARM Count Kaldrjarn Pitt | Archmage Kilmar | Sarguk Morderer ANT ALARM MisterLich wrote: First of all, my brain is one of the best here.
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Budly
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Posted: Sun, Feb 26 2017, 22:08 PM |
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Player
Joined: 04 Jan 2006
Location: Hin Town
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Commie wrote: Budly wrote: Karradon wrote: Ah, so if two Nations have a war and there's a third one in between them, it's fair game to kill all of them too because you don't believe in the notion of neutral grounds?
After all, they are either with us or the others, it's really a narrow-minded black & white view, and I don't mean that in an offensive way, it's just how it is.
Edit: For Kampo's there's a real good reason for neutrality: Coins, he's a businessman, he doesn't really care if the coin comes from a good person or an evil person, It's his land, his building, his rules. In a war there is only neutral grounds cause no one can reach it or wants to. I give an example. 12 riders from Kohlingen along with a large group adventurers hunt Paush, the Demon Lord from Zanshibon up the mountains. He manages to manouver down to either Kampo or Lemur. He gets inside their borders, stops, poking his tongue out and points to the ground "Ha ha! Neutral ground!". Are you telling me this group would just go "Damnit! We almost had him! Time to go home boys and girls"? This is the kind of things you see in pvp in MMOs. If everyone was a pc this is what would happen as the Lemur is a no pvp area and like wiltun you cannot fight other players there. It's impossible. So yes this is how it works ig in the lore and in mechanics and your rp should reflect it. So in theory....Sauron, Darth Vader...Sargeras, Demogorgon or any other villian of your choice and liking can pull this out ICly and escape? On 1 health point? No wonder evil is so smug.
_________________
Plays:
Sylveera : Sun Elven fury packed in an Arcane Archer, not a Drow, promise.
Tetrik : Greed incarnate in a Duergar.
Budly : Has gone to a better place.
Barrililath : Shadowy Drow, probably less Drow than Sylv ever be.
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Commie
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Posted: Sun, Feb 26 2017, 22:32 PM |
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Player
Joined: 02 Dec 2015
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Budly wrote:
So in theory....Sauron, Darth Vader...Sargeras, Demogorgon or any other villian of your choice and liking can pull this out ICly and escape? On 1 health point? No wonder evil is so smug.
Talk to the DM's, I as a player can't lift 'no pvp' that mechanically enforces neutral ground. I just play along with the rules they set. _________________ ANT ALARM Count Kaldrjarn Pitt | Archmage Kilmar | Sarguk Morderer ANT ALARM MisterLich wrote: First of all, my brain is one of the best here.
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Budly
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Posted: Sun, Feb 26 2017, 22:42 PM |
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Player
Joined: 04 Jan 2006
Location: Hin Town
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Commie wrote: Budly wrote:
So in theory....Sauron, Darth Vader...Sargeras, Demogorgon or any other villian of your choice and liking can pull this out ICly and escape? On 1 health point? No wonder evil is so smug.
Talk to the DM's, I as a player can't lift 'no pvp' that mechanically enforces neutral ground. I just play along with the rules they set. Either way. Good can do the same. I just find it bit of a comedy gold thing 
_________________
Plays:
Sylveera : Sun Elven fury packed in an Arcane Archer, not a Drow, promise.
Tetrik : Greed incarnate in a Duergar.
Budly : Has gone to a better place.
Barrililath : Shadowy Drow, probably less Drow than Sylv ever be.
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Mon, Feb 27 2017, 0:23 AM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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Budly wrote: But Alignment system makes it stiff. Chaotic Evil is mostly baby eating psychos. If you take it by what it says it can be seen as such. Wrong Budly wrote: Well, DnD is not really built around the deepest of roleplaying. It is a stiff level based system where things are what they are 99 out of 100 times. Wrong Budly wrote: Well, there is much better systems for deeper character development and RP that can have higher meaning than being tied to alignment, class and levels. Subjective opinion with no stake in this discussion Quote: No, I want you to accept that everyone has his own view of good and evil and stop bashing people OOCly when someone does anything evil, what's evil for you or your character is something "good" for other people, and there are neutral grounds that will remain such (Kampo's and the Crouching Lemure monastery for one) and it's always the "good" ones that violate that neutrality, makes you think if they are really the good ones. Bingo - stop freaking out everytime on every character Budly wrote: In a war there is only neutral grounds cause no one can reach it or wants to. Wrong Budly wrote: So in theory....Sauron, Darth Vader...Sargeras, Demogorgon or any other villian of your choice and liking can pull this out ICly and escape? On 1 health point? No wonder evil is so smug. "smug"? seriously drop the 'tude it's LITERALLY no pvp enforced by the game engine and there's literally nothing that can be done but yes, yes, the lemur monastery being no PvP is absolutely why "evil" is "so smug". for sure. that's it. you hit the nail on the head.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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Eltryptich
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Posted: Mon, Feb 27 2017, 0:28 AM |
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Player
Joined: 02 Mar 2016
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I enjoy playing evil chrs myself and would like to see more conflict between good and evil player characters. Although it does at least SEEM to me that is not really what a lot of folks really want. Could be wrong
Hell even if some evil chrs could go raid and pillage a village of npc not reflected on the server would be fun if enough chrs of that nature could get rounded up and perhaps the good pcs get wind and attempt to stop them? Many ideas hmm?
_________________
Plays Yoweth'Ssissth Kelia
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SamTheGiantSlayer
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Posted: Mon, Feb 27 2017, 0:29 AM |
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Player
Joined: 31 Mar 2014
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Wasn't gonna touch it ... But
Budly, your OOC antagonistic viewpoint towards Evil and Evil PCs is part of the problem. We all get it, it's a modern politically correct world and we all love the good-dooers and hate the baby stealers.
But we aren't RPing in 2017 Earth.
Forgotten Realms is a fantasy setting, with core rule books that give you descriptions of every single alignment. CE are not just random baby eaters by default. Evil exists in the setting to balance out the multitude of protagonistic beings and super hero adventurers (in many more ways other than blanket generalizations of behaviour), which Amia also has a deep saturation of.
Not everyone wants to be the Good guy, smiting the same old monsters every single afternoon and coming home to enjoy dinner with the wife and kids. You should at least attempt to respect that Evil has many facets and serves several purposes in terms of enriching the environment. Not all of them are coming to shit on your specific parade.
The way that you have treated these players oocly is another reason people just shy away from the concept in general, because youre not the only one who does it.
The debate of good v evil is easy to figure out in terms of basic lore. The setting was designed that way. It's pretty black and white, especially for the divine focused characters. Even so, it is meant to be polytheistic, the gods are known to exist and show favor or ire so that they can be placated. Everyone has to give offerings so that they stay out smiting range or stay in favor. The Evil and the Good, and all in between.
The debate is truly about why some have come to default to this attitude so often towards the very idea of Evil, when it is a presence that is never "hunted to extinction" even in the lore and setting. Otherwise, what would there be for people to combat?
_________________ Thats the way it crumbles ... cookie-wise!
Last edited by SamTheGiantSlayer on Mon, Feb 27 2017, 0:29 AM, edited 1 time in total.
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Chupacabra
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Posted: Mon, Feb 27 2017, 0:29 AM |
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Player
Joined: 01 Jan 2016
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Think of it as making a run for the Border. Wild Wild West Style.  Good ol' Mexico!!!
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Deacon Lott-Merchant
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Chupacabra
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Posted: Mon, Feb 27 2017, 0:36 AM |
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Player
Joined: 01 Jan 2016
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Eltryptich wrote: I enjoy playing evil chrs myself and would like to see more conflict between good and evil player characters. Although it does at least SEEM to me that is not really what a lot of folks really want. Could be wrong
Hell even if some evil chrs could go raid and pillage a village of npc not reflected on the server would be fun if enough chrs of that nature could get rounded up and perhaps the good pcs get wind and attempt to stop them? Many ideas hmm? I've always wanted to see a Hunting ground were the Evil PC's hunt prey on the Good guys Turf. Maybe an Out Post Near Kohlingen or something.
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Deacon Lott-Merchant
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Budly
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Posted: Mon, Feb 27 2017, 0:49 AM |
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Player
Joined: 04 Jan 2006
Location: Hin Town
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SamTheGiantSlayer wrote: Wasn't gonna touch it ... But
Budly, your OOC antagonistic viewpoint towards Evil and Evil PCs is part of the problem. We all get it, it's a modern politically correct world and we all love the good-dooers and hate the baby stealers.
But we aren't RPing in 2017 Earth.
Forgotten Realms is a fantasy setting, with core rule books that give you descriptions of every single alignment. CE are not just random baby eaters by default. Evil exists in the setting to balance out the multitude of protagonistic beings and super hero adventurers (in many more ways other than blanket generalizations of behaviour), which Amia also has a deep saturation of.
Not everyone wants to be the Good guy, smiting the same old monsters every single afternoon and coming home to enjoy dinner with the wife and kids. You should at least attempt to respect that Evil has many facets and serves several purposes in terms of enriching the environment. Not all of them are coming to shit on your specific parade.
The way that you have treated these players oocly is another reason people just shy away from the concept in general, because youre not the only one who does it.
The debate of good v evil is easy to figure out in terms of basic lore. The setting was designed that way. It's pretty black and white, especially for the divine focused characters. Even so, it is meant to be polytheistic, the gods are known to exist and show favor or ire so that they can be placated. Everyone has to give offerings so that they stay out smiting range or stay in favor. The Evil and the Good, and all in between.
The debate is truly about why some have come to default to this attitude so often towards the very idea of Evil, when it is a presence that is never "hunted to extinction" even in the lore and setting. Otherwise, what would there be for people to combat? It is about war between Good and Evil. As you say it is Black and White. So...this kinda make it weird. Good and Evil cannot help each others, it make no sense. It makes no sense to me to tribute to evil. I do not think I play like the real world, the real world is more grey, pulling the whole "Who is truely evil" talk in the real world is more fiting than in FR. Why would any good aligned pay tribute to a evil good? Do Eilistraee supporters pay to Lolth? Not likely. In setting, evil many times do get driven away. In many settings. But to kill it fully would render the conflict part null and void. This is the only reason why evil still is allowed to prosper, to create conflict. That Orc cave would been empty long ago but Boris the Farmer still pays adventurers to kill the Orcs, 20 years later. There is no IC reason to not clean out the cavern of these Orcs beside game mechanics that adventurers in some scenario need something to bash.
_________________
Plays:
Sylveera : Sun Elven fury packed in an Arcane Archer, not a Drow, promise.
Tetrik : Greed incarnate in a Duergar.
Budly : Has gone to a better place.
Barrililath : Shadowy Drow, probably less Drow than Sylv ever be.
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Eltryptich
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Posted: Mon, Feb 27 2017, 0:55 AM |
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Player
Joined: 02 Mar 2016
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I actually have another point to make for evil pcs.
There's plenty of places for them to congregate and operate safely from even if a group of them went full evil on Bendir Dale and were hunted in the lands of good. The UD has a places that can be refuge. Tarkuul is very well protected. Far flung lands abound without one having to set foot in the Dale, Wharftown, Kohlingen, etc. My girl Kelia has no reason to venture on the island at all other than killing the Deep Duerra fella and moving on. I'd love for her to have a semblance of a force to pillage the surface with and even if she got cornered and outnumbered and didn't manage to weasal her way out and was killed I'd accept permadeath and make another nemesis type character.
_________________
Plays Yoweth'Ssissth Kelia
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OpenTheRift
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Posted: Mon, Feb 27 2017, 0:59 AM |
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Player
Joined: 17 Feb 2014
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Evil given the atmosphere is very pigeonholed on Amia. Less so in the past few months with the shift of crowds. In general though I see more plot from Evil than I do Good. Good doesn't have anywhere to go anymore, they've got everything. Evil by contrast not only has everything to gain, but very often it's characters -yearn- for more.
It requires DM oversight though, since you can't overtly play evil on Amia with any ambition.
_________________
bad man
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SamTheGiantSlayer
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Posted: Mon, Feb 27 2017, 1:01 AM |
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Player
Joined: 31 Mar 2014
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@Budly:
Good aligned characters pay tribute to evil gods because they aren't mentally addled, and know that passing through the sea without tidings to the Bitch Queen and Valkur respectively is a terrible idea, etc etc.
By all means, if your PC has low intelligence maybe he doesn't think so and just blindly does as he does.
But again, the setting was crafted this way. Polytheism is real and practiced in FR because of the irrefutable presence of the Gods.
And my point is to say you should give them some credit OOC, not IC. Because you're not a good aligned Drow or Hin or Elf or anything in real life. You're a human being who should respect your fellow human beings like equals outside of a video game they play for fun, not to be attacked for doing what they like.
_________________ Thats the way it crumbles ... cookie-wise!
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Commie
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Posted: Mon, Feb 27 2017, 1:04 AM |
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Player
Joined: 02 Dec 2015
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Yeah, a lot of deities (umberlee, cyric, auril) are powerful BECAUSE people worship them to prevent getting their shit wrecked by their domains.
_________________ ANT ALARM Count Kaldrjarn Pitt | Archmage Kilmar | Sarguk Morderer ANT ALARM MisterLich wrote: First of all, my brain is one of the best here.
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Eltryptich
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Posted: Mon, Feb 27 2017, 1:04 AM |
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Player
Joined: 02 Mar 2016
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Budly wrote: SamTheGiantSlayer wrote: Wasn't gonna touch it ... But
Budly, your OOC antagonistic viewpoint towards Evil and Evil PCs is part of the problem. We all get it, it's a modern politically correct world and we all love the good-dooers and hate the baby stealers.
But we aren't RPing in 2017 Earth.
Forgotten Realms is a fantasy setting, with core rule books that give you descriptions of every single alignment. CE are not just random baby eaters by default. Evil exists in the setting to balance out the multitude of protagonistic beings and super hero adventurers (in many more ways other than blanket generalizations of behaviour), which Amia also has a deep saturation of.
Not everyone wants to be the Good guy, smiting the same old monsters every single afternoon and coming home to enjoy dinner with the wife and kids. You should at least attempt to respect that Evil has many facets and serves several purposes in terms of enriching the environment. Not all of them are coming to shit on your specific parade.
The way that you have treated these players oocly is another reason people just shy away from the concept in general, because youre not the only one who does it.
The debate of good v evil is easy to figure out in terms of basic lore. The setting was designed that way. It's pretty black and white, especially for the divine focused characters. Even so, it is meant to be polytheistic, the gods are known to exist and show favor or ire so that they can be placated. Everyone has to give offerings so that they stay out smiting range or stay in favor. The Evil and the Good, and all in between.
The debate is truly about why some have come to default to this attitude so often towards the very idea of Evil, when it is a presence that is never "hunted to extinction" even in the lore and setting. Otherwise, what would there be for people to combat? It is about war between Good and Evil. As you say it is Black and White. So...this kinda make it weird. Good and Evil cannot help each others, it make no sense. It makes no sense to me to tribute to evil. I do not think I play like the real world, the real world is more grey, pulling the whole "Who is truely evil" talk in the real world is more fiting than in FR. Why would any good aligned pay tribute to a evil good? Do Eilistraee supporters pay to Lolth? Not likely. In setting, evil many times do get driven away. In many settings. But to kill it fully would render the conflict part null and void. This is the only reason why evil still is allowed to prosper, to create conflict. That Orc cave would been empty long ago but Boris the Farmer still pays adventurers to kill the Orcs, 20 years later. There is no IC reason to not clean out the cavern of these Orcs beside game mechanics that adventurers in some scenario need something to bash. In static encounters like the orc caves we have to use our imagination and pretend like perhaps there is some out of reach area where the female orcs are there breeding away replacements as well as a good number of replacement orc warriors to boot. Orcs breed and mature faster than humans anyway.
_________________
Plays Yoweth'Ssissth Kelia
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Eltryptich
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Posted: Mon, Feb 27 2017, 1:09 AM |
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Player
Joined: 02 Mar 2016
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OpenTheRift wrote: Evil given the atmosphere is very pigeonholed on Amia. Less so in the past few months with the shift of crowds. In general though I see more plot from Evil than I do Good. Good doesn't have anywhere to go anymore, they've got everything. Evil by contrast not only has everything to gain, but very often it's characters -yearn- for more.
It requires DM oversight though, since you can't overtly play evil on Amia with any ambition. Yes it does as well as evil doing what is next to impossible for evil, get along with other evil for a reasonable length of time.
_________________
Plays Yoweth'Ssissth Kelia
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Budly
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Posted: Mon, Feb 27 2017, 1:11 AM |
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Player
Joined: 04 Jan 2006
Location: Hin Town
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Commie wrote: Yeah, a lot of deities (umberlee, cyric, auril) are powerful BECAUSE people worship them to prevent getting their shit wrecked by their domains. I answer you but this goes to the rest of you diety talkers. Sure, but often there is an equal god you can give to. That can do similar things but do not want to enslave you or worse. Also in a setting perspective...Gods are only weakened if you stop giving them shit or pray to them. So it is counter productive to pray to them if you want them gone. Do not feed the hand that bites you eventually when it finds your food lacking. Polytheism sure, but there is plenty pantheons. IN most PANTHEONS I can buy it. But most gods are not a Pantheon in DnD as far as I know. The Triad, do they even belong to a pantheon? As in the same manner as the Greek or Nordic? Hell, Tyr is even from my understanding an Aesir in Faerun. As I said, half the elven Pantheon is Drow gods now, I have never heard of the Quessir paying tribute to that half. Most races got Pantheons they pray to that makes sense. I guess Humans are the idjots who keep paying tribute to gods who hate them. A small tribe in the north paying tribute to Auril? Sure, an enormous organisation bent to a good gods knee? Paying tribute? To the Bitch Queen? Have never ever heard of this, ever. In any DnD licensed material.
_________________
Plays:
Sylveera : Sun Elven fury packed in an Arcane Archer, not a Drow, promise.
Tetrik : Greed incarnate in a Duergar.
Budly : Has gone to a better place.
Barrililath : Shadowy Drow, probably less Drow than Sylv ever be.
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Kamina
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Posted: Mon, Feb 27 2017, 1:17 AM |
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DM
Joined: 05 Jul 2007
Location: Kent, England.
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Evil has a very important place on Amia.
They act as antagonists. A lot of Evil players act as pivotal development points for the wide spectrum of players. If suddenly, everyone dropped their evil-aligned characters and focused on Neutral or Good, the server would nearly exclusively need to be DM-led at all times for any progression outside of faction RP.
I think Evil's place on Amia is good to note. The issue Evil face is knee-jerking curb-stomping. From an IC point of view this makes sense, but I am very keen to ensure that on an OOC level people aren't attempting to perma/harass evil players just to rid of them.
_________________  "Operating in the border between light and darkness, shadowdancers are nimble artists of deception. They are mysterious and unknown, never completely trusted but always inducing wonder when met"
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Budly
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Posted: Mon, Feb 27 2017, 1:20 AM |
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Player
Joined: 04 Jan 2006
Location: Hin Town
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Kamina wrote: Evil has a very important place on Amia.
They act as antagonists. A lot of Evil players act as pivotal development points for the wide spectrum of players. If suddenly, everyone dropped their evil-aligned characters and focused on Neutral or Good, the server would nearly exclusively need to be DM-led at all times for any progression outside of faction RP.
I think Evil's place on Amia is good to note. The issue Evil face is knee-jerking curb-stomping. From an IC point of view this makes sense, but I am very keen to ensure that on an OOC level people aren't attempting to perma/harass evil players just to rid of them. But explain to me why my Black Archer follower would allow people to raise a dead Drow of Vhaerun? She has 0 IC reason to allow this to happen. Beside that, when people question evil and proclaim it is not that black and white, There dieties who clearly has alignment rules and detect evil exist. This is not something made up, the gods in some way can sense it. Also turning the table, will a evil doer give tributes to a good god of something they need? Or is only good and neutral forced to pay tribute to evil for that kind of things?
_________________
Plays:
Sylveera : Sun Elven fury packed in an Arcane Archer, not a Drow, promise.
Tetrik : Greed incarnate in a Duergar.
Budly : Has gone to a better place.
Barrililath : Shadowy Drow, probably less Drow than Sylv ever be.
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kindlegem
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Posted: Mon, Feb 27 2017, 1:23 AM |
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Player
Joined: 23 Jan 2017
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Budly wrote: Paying tribute? To the Bitch Queen? Have never ever heard of this, ever. In any DnD licensed material.  Faiths and Pantheons 3rd edition, 2002, page 82
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Budly
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Posted: Mon, Feb 27 2017, 1:26 AM |
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Player
Joined: 04 Jan 2006
Location: Hin Town
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kindlegem wrote: Budly wrote: Paying tribute? To the Bitch Queen? Have never ever heard of this, ever. In any DnD licensed material. Faiths and Pantheons 3rd edition, 2002, page 82 I say, those sailors are evil. 
_________________
Plays:
Sylveera : Sun Elven fury packed in an Arcane Archer, not a Drow, promise.
Tetrik : Greed incarnate in a Duergar.
Budly : Has gone to a better place.
Barrililath : Shadowy Drow, probably less Drow than Sylv ever be.
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Budly
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Posted: Mon, Feb 27 2017, 1:31 AM |
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Player
Joined: 04 Jan 2006
Location: Hin Town
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And yes, okay! I was wrong on the diety part.
_________________
Plays:
Sylveera : Sun Elven fury packed in an Arcane Archer, not a Drow, promise.
Tetrik : Greed incarnate in a Duergar.
Budly : Has gone to a better place.
Barrililath : Shadowy Drow, probably less Drow than Sylv ever be.
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Eltryptich
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Posted: Mon, Feb 27 2017, 1:31 AM |
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Player
Joined: 02 Mar 2016
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Budly wrote: Kamina wrote: Evil has a very important place on Amia.
They act as antagonists. A lot of Evil players act as pivotal development points for the wide spectrum of players. If suddenly, everyone dropped their evil-aligned characters and focused on Neutral or Good, the server would nearly exclusively need to be DM-led at all times for any progression outside of faction RP.
I think Evil's place on Amia is good to note. The issue Evil face is knee-jerking curb-stomping. From an IC point of view this makes sense, but I am very keen to ensure that on an OOC level people aren't attempting to perma/harass evil players just to rid of them. But explain to me why my Black Archer follower would allow people to raise a dead Drow of Vhaerun? She has 0 IC reason to allow this to happen. Beside that, when people question evil and proclaim it is not that black and white, There dieties who clearly has alignment rules and detect evil exist. This is not something made up, the gods in some way can sense it. Also turning the table, will a evil doer give tributes to a good god of something they need? Or is only good and neutral forced to pay tribute to evil for that kind of things? Aside from the deity thing, evil isn't burdened with the one thing that may make them raise an evil PC and that one thing is called mercy. Mercy IMO is something only a truly good person has the capacity to show. Although that doesn't absolutely mean if you're good you're required to show it. Also on the deity issue. I think all of the nature/weather oriented deities such as Umberlee, Auril, etc. are evil deities and they demand tribute at the threat of destruction (hence why they're evil to begin with) Then you have Beshaba who will grant a person horrible fate unless she is at least placated a little. Consider such things as superstition at the very least.
_________________
Plays Yoweth'Ssissth Kelia
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