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Undead Shapes, Dragon Shapes, and Construct shapes are all fine and quite powerful as they stand.

Between the immunities, and the free TS (From Dragon shapes) it gives you a powerful range of forms to choose from and currently most shifters invest in just Construct and Undead shapes.

The one set of forms that is lacking is the Outsiders so these series of changes have been made and will be implemented in a few days.
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Rakshasa
* Remains unchanged.

Azer
The Azer was in a weird spot of not really being that much better vs its counterparts, and suffering from the lack of immunities that the construct/undead have. To that effect it has seen a push towards a Dwarven Defender like form.

* DR2 upgraded to DR3
* Some light DR added to the hide itself
* Defensive Awareness II (Immunity to sneaks in combat)
* Con/Str boost
* Tweaked its Waraxe to have a bit more non fire damage, also named the weapon instead of leaving the default resref tag for the name.
* Slight bump in its base AC

Death Slaad
The Death Slaad was built to be a dex tank, which it did really well. Overall it has keep that roll but all of its abilities have been stripped. The Slaad summoning was bad, and only used to cheese certain bosses. The Chaos Spittle was a mess and broken. (Expect to see Chaos spittle removed from the Death Slaad Shapechange and replaced in the future)

To fit more of a thematic approach the Shifter Death Slaad has been given a new ability and some new weapons.

*Use to be unarmed, now uses a creature weapon with a 50% onhit stun and an ab increase. It will have much better AB compared to before, but overall still subpar compared to the Azer.
*Chaos Spittle, Howl, and Summon Slaad were removed
*Phantasmal killer was granted to it.
*Spell Focus, Greater Spell Focus, and Epic Spell Focus Illusion have also been given to the Slaad.

With the new spell changes Phantasmal killer will offer decent damage and doom effects even if the death save is passed, making it an interesting and hopefully useful ability.

All of these changes are subject to change and adjustments as we go along!

The Acid Spit was the most effective tool on the Slaad due to its AC. Sucks to see it go. But thanks for some changes! Going to test it out when it's IG

I'm noticing some changes are currently applied and others are not. Tested on A and B.

Slaad:
Creature weapon non-existent or broken; AB still the same as before, but attacks only doing single-digit damage.
Phantasmal Killer works, with a DC of 22; Spell Focus feats missing.

Azer:
Also missing new feats (DR 3, Defensive Awareness II)
STR/CON boost works, stacking on my merged +6 Gears, however, this makes Azer's Improved Rage redundant.
Weapon still has resref tag for name, and no noticeable change to non-fire damage.
Can't tell if AC was changed from before.

If this is because we need a module update, then disregard this post.

Maverick00053 wrote:

The one set of forms that is lacking is the Outsiders so these series of changes have been made and will be implemented in a few days.

There is a reason I said a few days. Some of the stuff is dynamic and some is module based

Give it time.

Also the Str/Con boost is through the polymorph function. So it has an increased base stat, which shouldnt effect the rage or stacking.

Maverick00053 wrote:

[b]Undead Shapes, Dragon Shapes, and Construct shapes are all fine and quite powerful as they stand.

I think some of the forms could use some minor tweaks, like Vampire in undead form maybe.

IC I plan to work towards the effort of getting a widget with like 10 or so uses of Greater shadow conjuration for my undead forms because it has been changed to a very negative energy feel...I think vampire form might benefit from it as a unlimited power in place of say Negative Energy Burst but I was going to wait till I got a chance to test it in game with vampire form before I made a official suggestion.

Negative Energy Burst is the only thing that heals it, save Regen. Might want to keep it.

Maverick00053 wrote:

The one set of forms that is lacking is the Outsiders so these series of changes have been made and will be implemented in a few days.

There is a reason I said a few days. Some of the stuff is dynamic and some is module based

Give it time.

Also the Str/Con boost is through the polymorph function. So it has an increased base stat, which shouldnt effect the rage or stacking.

I can't read.

I will test this again when everything should be in.

Maverick00053 wrote:

The one set of forms that is lacking is the Outsiders and every other Epic form that doesnt require a feat so these series of changes have not been made and will not be implemented in a few days.

A man can dream! :roll:

lilmarcat wrote:

Maverick00053 wrote:

The one set of forms that is lacking is the Outsiders and every other Epic form that doesnt require a feat so these series of changes have not been made and will not be implemented in a few days.

A man can dream! :roll:

Maybe shifters will get lucky and they will do like I suggested on the other page and maybe try and have some forms focus on select race types like tiger with extra damage and like 2extra AB vs the target something at least give you a touch of a reason to change form.

Because otherwise everyone will focus on the epic feat forms making your 17 standard forms unused and the shifter levels just AC and ability level fodder, it like having a spell book of a casting of Hellball,EMA and G-ruin.... and 50 castings of light.

Updates are now live.

Slaad: DC: Will Vs. Mind + Fort vs. Death was 24 before ESF Illusion. With it, it raised to 30. Which is higher, but still.. We lost Slaad spit, which gave decent (100 - 80ish) acid damage per-spit, to a low DC Spell that can be neglected by almost anyone, and 10 magical damage.

Spell also auto applies doom which is rather beefy. I am still considering adding more abilities that are appropriate when they come up.

Slaad Spit was broken. The fact you could spit for 80-100 damage speaks for itself on that front. Sorry but it isn't going to be put back unless I get into the code and slaughter it.

Slaad: Claws: Acid 1d8, +4 Enchantment, Stun DC-26 50% / 2 rounds.
Slaad: AB: 40, can hit mid-level spawns / mid-level PCs.
Slaad: AC: Anything under 50 is pretty crap.
Slaad: Abilities: Iffy.

All together, Slaad form is physically useless, at least at this stage. Idk a single purpose it could have on Amia aside a PC shifting into it for RP.

Azer: Weapon: 1d8 Fire (Though can make 1d10), 1d8 Slash, Enchantment +5, Keen, Massive Crit 1d12. Bonus damage from weapon focuses.
Azer: AB: 44 (roughly), has great crits.
Azer: AC: 46 (roughly), can get hit by anything. HOWEVER, added DR / Defensive Awareness provides some stability and Immunity to Sneak in combat helps.
Azer: Abilities: Since the Spit from Slaad was removed, might as well remove the Fire Bolt. Fire Bolt does 60-100 damage, roughly, depending on what you fight. Rage provides +Con / +Str, raising AB to 47 (roughly). Free 1d10 Fire damage.

Azer can pretty much solo certain areas, without even losing a HP. I tested it in several areas, and it does great in Frost Orcs / Beastmen. But that was pre-update that just happen. The form can be useful in other situations, but its not entirely a form people use to pvp / pvm.

With the changes to Construct / Outsider, the most useful shape for a Shifter (not dedicated to one or two forms / who is a versatile Shifter) is Undead. Any Conjuration-Focused Cleric / Wizard can screw them with Heal / GR.

So, yes, if we're going to remove the Spit from Slaad because it did too much damage. Remove the Fire Bolt from Azer, because it's just as equal in damage, if not just slightly weaker. Might be good to start "boosting" shifters instead of crippling them. So far all the updates to Shifters have been to strip their useful powers and replace them with mildly useful.

"Useful" does not mean "overpowered".

Both of those forms tip into 50 AC with tumble, the Slaad more so. I can't balance a form based on someone not having tumble.

I admit my bias is towards my own build. But even considering Tumble as a factor, the form's lost more than they gained. I'm not trying to have them overpowered, but what powers that are being applied to them are useful in a handful of situations, at most.

Ideas:

- Could help if the forms had more use. While AC and AB on all forms are wary at best, you could apply some sort of ability to them. Vampire is the only form that can heal itself (Of the 3 Undead), so maybe apply some additional "Negative Energy" spells to Risen Lord and Specter. Undead form relys heavily on Regen / DR. Problem with shifters is most forms rely on their DR (ie / Construct, Gargoyle, Azer)

- Provide less-used forms some sort of enhancement that'll make them more attractive then the Epic (Feat-wise-epic) shapes. Mostly shifters use their Epic forms, because they're so much more powerful (not anymore, tho). So give Mindflayer, Dire Tiger, Minotaur, Harpy e.t.c some love. 19 Levels in Shifter (I'd say is common for a lot of shifters), and these forms are only useful in very particular situations. (ie / Mindflayer in large-low level group areas, Dire Tiger / Minotaur too, no one uses the Harpy.)

Honestly, just getting away from the stigma that all shifter's need is Regen / DR. Kinda difficult to be a useful shifter if the DR they rely so heavily on is removed, therefore all they have is Regen. I don't doubt any of these updates have caused a lot of shifters to redo their gear, either to add DR or other things. AC / AB is a big issue for the forms, but most of the useful forms are useful because of special abilities. So, add /useful/ special abilities to Epic and Non-epic shapes. I'm not asking you to give the Lizard shape Implosion ontop of the HoG, or give the Dire Tiger a huge boost to its claws. But something that'll make the form (even in oddly particular situations) unique.

Shapes never used (my experience with my own shifter / other shifter)

- Harpy (Obviously)
- Gargoyle (Now)
- Basilisk (Because the Medusa form does the same, plus ranged-attack.)
- Manticore
- Drow or Drider, usually one of the two is favored. Because they're basically the same shape. Darkness spam is the most useful part of them. Though, obviously, some difference.

Dedicated Shifter builds

5 Druid / 19 Shifter / 6 -insert tumble class here - Benefit - 3AC
5 Druid / 19 Shifter / 6 -insert full BAB class here - Benefit - 3AB

Can't have both as a Shifter so its not really that hard to balance around.

you're 5/5/10 pre epic, that's a difference of 2 AB, not 3.

The point is forms should not get a bunch of free AC assumnig people don't take tumble.

Slaad has Dmg of 0-0 + Str modifier. (+4 dmg and 1d8 acid)

Unknown if intentional.

lilmarcat wrote:

Can't have both as a Shifter so its not really that hard to balance around.

It is always harder than you assume. Nevertheless it has been balanced around the possiblity of both general builds.

The Death Slaad was given a stun on hit creature weapon, a huge ab increase, and phatasmal killer with a solid dc that is a free insta kill, damaging and doom spell that is spammable. The only thing that is lost was its mechanically broken spit. So please go test it because if it is still "useless" then that just shows bad the form was before it got this significant buff.
Now can you do pve testing with them against epic areas. Feed back would be appreciated.

Phantasmal killer bypasses Immunity to Death Magic and can reach a feasible DC: 10 + 4 level + 6 ESF + 15 WIS = 35. If you have a haster with you, I could see how Phantasmal killer spam is effective against low-Fort targets (most manticore spawns in the Frozen Wastes, Deadeyes in the Abyss).

The below are some slight changes that should help the Slaad fulfill its tank roll better. This change should be in by the end of the day, or tomorrow at the latest.

Death Slaad
* Upped its AC by 2
* Gave it Displacement

Tested the Slaad in:

- Nes'ek (Minotaurs): Does pretty good melee wise. The Phantasmal killer is high enough to take down the Berserk, but forget the Shamens. On-Hit Stun + AB + DR (And any Regen the actual Shifter has), you should do it fine.

- Brogdenstein (Frost Orcs): Phantasmal killer, 30 DC, with no increase through your shifter, doesn't really do anything. Though the Spamable Doom is there, the DR / Regen / On-Hit Stun / AB you can easily do Orcs.

- Kohlingen: Tristrim Path (Beastmen): If you spam it a few time, Phantasmal killer, on the same one, you can kill them. At least all but the Shamens. You can take care of the actual creatures melee wise, with the same reasons listed above.

All in all, if you consider it, the speed of the Slaad killing has increased a good bit. Slaad spit is gone, so its primary focus towards bosses / DM events / pvp was cut away.. You can pull away some good areas with the Slaad.

*Totally overread that. It's early.

*

Maverick00053 wrote:

This change should be in by the end of the day, or tomorrow at the latest.

LibrisMortis_666 wrote:

Phantasmal testing

It of course scales with your casting ability modifier, as any spell would. Low-WIS shifters do not get the same benefit as high-WIS shifters, and this is a build difference. Not everybody has to benefit equally and builds focus differently.

Well I'm testing with 30 wis shifter

LibrisMortis_666 wrote:

Well I'm testing with 30 wis shifter

Include the Brog barbarians in your testing. It is an area that is not often visited, but yields incredible exp per effort. I remember Lithorn back in the days would spam Weird there and clear the waves pretty much all the time, so I assume phantasmal killer should do the job as well.

LibrisMortis_666 wrote:

Well I'm testing with 30 wis shifter

Base WIS or buffed WIS? If base WIS is 30 you can buff it up to 42, when the modifier is 16 and DC 36. If you have done this, it might be a bug or an intended cap on the spell DC. No clue how one would do this, though.

Should be live now.

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