Hi. I think longbows should have a power limit of 5 just like a two handed melee weapon. Bows are large two handed weapons that deny the use of a shield or off hand weapon with 3-4 powers just like their melee variants.

Edit: DAAANG this post exploded, yeah forgot my arrows have powers nevermind guys lol

Bows get six slots already. Four on the bow and two on the arrows.

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You can't enchant an arrow with an ability bonus, attack bonus, mighty bonus, or massive crit bonus, which all take up powers on the bow. Ranged weapons and ammo are not the same category of mythal powers, you're comparing apples and oranges.

I'm all for giving longbows and heavy crossbows the 5 power limit, I honestly thought this was already a thing.

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Osiris Masud

I have an archer with the following on her bow and one arrow type: +5 AB, +5 Mighty, +1 STR, +2d12 Massive Critical, +2d10 Fire damage, +3 Vamp Regen. Add her +10 Enhancement from having 19 AA levels and there is no reason to make that stronger. That is all I'm saying, as a player with archers. But it's just my opinion!

I know there's an argument for archers who don't have AA, but you can't help them by giving bows more slots without boosting AAs also. Unless you only add another to crossbows, anyway!

And there isn't really anything else to put on a bow, honestly. It'd just be another ability increase for most. The above stats on a bow are available to anyone who can get an enchanted ash longbow (and Flawless mythals) or a seeking bow. The 2d12 Massive Critical is good fun.

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Yeah. There is no way I am in favor of making AAs more powerful.

I am ok with buffing crossbows.

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Active
Levexal
Techsmith Tokas Tokersun - http://amiaworld.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=88661

2d10 fire damage? On the bow or arrow? Confused here a little.

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When it rains, look for rainbows.
When it's dark, look for stars.

Sorry, your saying if you want to be an archer you have to be an AA then? Something which is race locked? So us mundane archers suffer so as not to buff a select class?

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When it rains, look for rainbows.
When it's dark, look for stars.

I said my whole list was the bow and one type of arrow. The last two are on the arrow. As an AA, it's better than non-AA arrows, I realize, but you have to look at the most powerful combination before you change something universal like the bow.

AA:
Bow:
+5 AB, +5 Mighty, +1 STR, +2d12 Massive Critical

Arrow:
+2d10 Fire damage, +3 Vamp Regen

A mundane archer can still get awesome stats. Here's one with a random non-AA arrow that a non-AA archer can get:

Bow:
+5 AB, +5 Mighty, +1 STR, +2d12 Massive Critical

Arrow:
+1d12 Electric damage, +3 Vamp Regen


Not a huge difference there, really. Compared to a Warforged Scythe with mythals:

Ability Bonus: Strength [+1]
Damage Bonus: Bludgeoning [2d6 Damage]
Enhancement Bonus: +5
Keen
Massive Criticals: 3d6 Damage

It's really not that far off. Only real difference is you can't Keen a bow.

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What if we rebalanced the AA so it wasn't so stupid-strong, that way we didn't have to be afraid of making bows worthwhile to use for non-AA characters? You can act like bows are good for non-AA's, but really, you lose so much damage instead of a weaponmaster it's not even funny. Your advantage over WM's is that you can kite and use Called Shot to try and get people, but if someone did that to me and I were melee, I'd just heal a little bit and leave the area. You literally can't stop me from leaving the area as a non-AA archer, your damage and AB is too low to kill me super quickly and you can't KD me with a ranged weapon. AA's can at least hit you hard and hit you almost every time, such that it's a clear advantage over a melee in a straight match-up. But we shouldn't require people to play elves or half elves, and have a specific prestige class, to be able to use bows effectively.

Heck, your arrows aren't even that good as a non-AA. 1d12 bonus damage, neat. I can enchant a scimitar to have +5 enhancement and +1d10 fire/cold/electric damage, depending on the situation, and they can be mythal'd to have more damage already before I even touch the thing; they can also be keen, and you get a shield along with that, to boot, for extra AC, stats, skills, whatever you want. You can't do any of that with bows or arrows. AA's make up for this with an absurd enhancement bonus on arrows just for existing, and being able to use some really, really nice arrows, like Stormtips, which give +2d12 electric damage and Daze on-hit.

Make bows and arrows useful for non-AA's, and tone AA's down a little. That seems the most viable solution to me.

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Osiris Masud

Bows are already worthwhile. I've seen non-AAs be really good with them.

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Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming

I just don't think I understand then. How is a non-AA super good with a bow and non-AA arrows? Are they like... A barbarian/bard/palemaster with dev crit who just stands there shooting you in the face with Ferocity Attack and 9,001 AC? That sounds fucking amazing actually.

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Osiris Masud

I fail to see how



isn't worthwhile.

I will compare it directly with the Warforged two-handed weapon, just so I'm clear on why I don't think this is an issue.





If your argument is that a Weapon Master is better than a non-AA archer, then I don't know what to say. Didn't you say I was comparing apples and oranges earlier? I'm not going to compare a scimitar-wielding WM to a non-AA archer, no. That's just silly. You don't compare a pure Fighter to a WM and complain about why the WM does more damage. There are different classes and builds for a reason. They are not cookie-cutter power levels who should all be equal.

AA is a lore-heavy class. AA's make better archers (typically) than non-AA's because...that's the lore behind the class. It's an Art practiced by the elves, and closely guarded.

That said, I have played an AA almost my entire time here on Amia, and there have in fact been many times when a rogue non-AA sniped the crap out of things far faster than anything I could do whilst praying for Crit rolls and then running away because I wasn't optimized for close-range when the monster/PC decided it wanted to kill me. Solo'ing with an AA? Hahaha...ha...

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Your rogue friend probably had nuts amounts of sneak attack. That can be done with literally any weapon. The bow was, more than likely, irrelevant to that particular equation.

When I said you were comparing "apples to oranges", it's because you were comparing an arrow's enchantment slots with a shield. They're completely different things. I compare two different builds here to draw a distinction between what is easily mechanically superior for no good reason. It's comparing apples to apples: Which one is superior. Comparing mythal slots on two different items that don't allow for the same things to be mythal'd onto them, and don't have the same purpose or function or literally anything in common with each other, is comparing apples to oranges.

My comparison is saying "Guys, why the hell would I ever choose a bow on a non-AA right now, instead of a melee weapon?"

The Mighty +5 is not equivalent to a melee weapon having a +5 enchantment on it. Melee weapons get your ENTIRE strength modifier - 1.5x if two handed - without needing an enchantment slot to do it. That's ridiculous to think that Mighty +5 and Attack Bonus +5 are equal to a melee weapon with Enhancement Bonus +5, much less a 2-handed melee weapon. You're gaining like 19 more damage on the scythe from STR alone, than the archer is getting, with a 36 STR build - but you're also keeping the same attack bonus because that is also powered by STR for the 2-handed meleer, so less stat spreading with your gear.

The entire reason I'm saying this is that mechanically, it's just better (and easier) to build a melee character, than a non-AA archer. I want archery to be treated similarly to melee: non-AA archers might be able to compete toe-to-toe with non-WM melee builds in some way. Right now you do less damage, have fewer crits (because you can't make a longbow keen right now,) have fewer enchantment slots, and most archers have trouble soloing. Now of course a minor tweak to how longbows work will not help that particular issue - if your damage relies on being at a distance and you don't have someone in front of you to keep monsters away, you're going to just have a tough time of it. But you can make the archer have slightly better damage, or more crits, or increase their enchantment slots, so that they are not inferior to the melee build so much.


Please not I'm not at all comparing AA's to melee builds. I've already agreed that AA's are superpowered (and fun.) I'm just talking about mundane archers. I don't see a reason mechanically to ever play one.

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Osiris Masud

Oh and FYI, you didn't address the fact that in a party, or just a pair of adventurers, the mage/cleric can enchant a meleer's weapon to have an additional +1d10 or 1d12 damage of varying elements, be keen if it wasn't already (if they're an arcanist that is), and have a +5 enhancement bonus, whilst none of those enchantments work on bows.

AA's of course, again, make up for this by having super-arrows and +9 or +10 enhancement bonus on top of their arrow/bow enchantments, which yes, is an awesome power level and doesn't need enchanting from a party wizard/cleric.

But once again, mundane archers get the shaft.

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Osiris Masud

The OP wanted to give bows another mythal slot because two-handed melee weapons get another mythal slot, and that is what I was referring to when I said that bows get six with the arrows (as a two-handed weapon doesn't get). I wasn't comparing the arrow slots with shield slots, as two-handed weapons don't get the shield slots, either.



That is apples and oranges, in this case, because we're talking about two-handed weapons.

Archery requires Dexterity to be efficient, rather than Strength. Thus, it requires a Dex build. What non-AA build do you think is optimized for Dexterity? It probably has Rogue in it, and thus they get the extra sneak attack damage. Maybe a Dex Ranger? Rangers get all kinds of stuff that AA's can't get (unless they're also Rangers, of course, but they still won't have as many Ranger levels because they're also AA's). The Ranger Animal Companion is badass, and combined with the Ranger spellbook, they can be pretty awesome.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that the power gap is really not as prevalent as you think. Ranger archers are awesome, and so are rogues. Hell, I've seen a Dex Weapon Master be pretty badass with a bow when he wanted to be. Not as their primary weapon, of course, but a Dex Weapon Master can tear things up at ranged, too.

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Sorry for the double-post, but I didn't think I touched on the other-classes bit enough to clearly draw the comparison between AA and non-AA!

I daresay that a Ranger/Fighter/Rogue, a pure Ranger, or a Rogue/SD or any combination of the groups can trump a 19 AA build without much effort most of the time. They tend to be more versatile by default, while 19 AA is practically shooting yourself in the foot for melee, as feat-starved as you can be. You have to have 2 Bard to get the Tumble dump in epic and that leaves you with 9 Fighter for feats. If you go Ranger instead of Fighter, then you have even fewer feats.

And any build which uses only 10 AA won't be so far above a non-AA similar build that it is painful to compare. An archer Ranger 30 could easily go toe-to-toe with a Ranger 18/AA10/Bard 2, while the Ranger's Animal Companion tears the AA (and the AA's far less powerful Animal Companion) up from another direction.

And Rogue/SD archer can just wipe the floor with an AA. AA's can do a hell of a lot of damage, but it's very difficult to gear an AA for that damage, AC, and Spot/Listen all at once. In the case of cooperative comparison, the rogue-archer's sneak damage will outshine the crit-hopeful AA, and the rogue will be able to hide out of harm's way if the enemy turns on them. The non-sneak AA will just have to run, or grab a rapier and shield and turn on Expertise and hope they can hold them off long enough for their party to allow the AA to get back again.

AA is very much a party support class, and the arrow management that comes with it is mind-boggling.

Non-AA archers tend to be far more flexible, with spells, sneaks, or even bard songs or cleric spells, if one were to go the Zen Archery route.

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Which one is that exactly? The badger? All they can do is take a hit. The rest suck, unless you're running a druid, or playing in medium level areas. That's why you almost never see my ranger's dire wolf in high level areas or DM events, wastes spells and resources just to die, and PvP? forget about it.

Sorry, back on topic!

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Well... I was personally impressed by the ones I saw. The boar is nice.

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Sorry i was shutting up shop and forum surfin' at the same time so missed that part! lol
For the record i always have an issue when an argument against something starts by saying.. 'but this class will be more over powered'. Don't get me wrong it is a valid point however you have to weigh in that its a race specific class and has a good amount of class specific gear when it comes to arrows and bows. Us mundane archers tend to use gear which isn't restricted and pretty much open to every race and every build. Arguing that helping the mundane archers be better archers overpowers what most already call an overpowered class just smacks a little.

This said i'm not going to debate the merits of AA verses non-AA archers, in fact when i first started playing my archer i was told to re-role her as a half-elf to take advantage of AA if i wanted to play an archer! I've also encountered surprise when i showed my build and had comments about not knowing anyone who plays a non elven character based around just being an archer. My character is a ranger/MS, 25/5 split as it stands and your right, as a ranger i get some handy though not always earth shattering spells. By far my biggest advantage is the tanked up badger who can hold back monsters as i pick them off. Altered blade thirst means i don't have to have a +5 +5 mighty bow if i don't want it so i can load the bow up with more useful feats and things. Add extended blade thirst and i can go all day without resting to rebuff so long as i don't get dispelled! Extended cats grace, potions from my MS class helps to make sure i don't run dry of anything should i need to reapply buffs!

As an archer, as a ranger, i wouldn't mind a few more AoE spells to stop or hinder groups so i can pick them off. Unfortunately my spell book is limited though not as limited as how many spells i can cast at each of the 4 spell levels. I need high DEX to make the build work, need to raise STR to take advantage of mighty (unless changed isn't it 2 points in the stat to each 1 added to mighty?), and too keep it real my lowest stat is an 8 and is the classic dump stat CHA... so putting anything more than my base 14 into WIS for spells really hurts and adding the stat to gear means i loose either DEX or STR points... unless i'm doing it wrong! Ranger build does grant a better than most melee ability to a DEX based build i grant but will ALL my feat pushed into my bow i tend to hit harder with my bow even at close range. Sword and board is good for jumping my AC but then i loose that attack and end up dancing round hoping i can get a lucky hit in every now and then. To be fair i'm thinking or re-rolling my main to take a more active interest in using her trap setting ability more to help slow monsters down when out soloing.

... hmmm, sorry think i ended up debating a little there! lol

Please forgive this but isn't the class Arcane Archer? Ranger spells are divine spells as they bypass armour penalties so for me, a ranger/AA is a no no as it isn't an Arcane class. Guess you could add a wizard or bard level but then your technically cheating the system to build round something. *shrugs* Just the way i feel about that i guess.

*edit*
... for the record, why not play a human archer? heh... my rp fits it and while Shana may secretly wish to be an elf some day... i'll still go with being (mostly) human as it suits who she is heh.

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When it rains, look for rainbows.
When it's dark, look for stars.

Ranger and Druid companions are stellar. All summons are going to die eventually since they aren't made to replace the player nor should they. I don't know what to tell you but a properly support companion tears apart end game areas. (Obviously there are exceptions, sorry Panther and hawk)

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Active
Levexal
Techsmith Tokas Tokersun - http://amiaworld.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=88661

I see what you mean about diversity. I'm running on no sleep here, I'm trying to fix my sleep schedule by doing a hard reset; I don't know if I'm thinking 100% clearly.

Anyway, my stance was coming at strictly approaching damage/AC of a mundane archer build compared to a melee build of similar variety. Rogue/SD can be really nasty melee or ranged, but I maintain that the melee is still better because in a party you get weapon buffs, and you can wield a shield.

I think, honestly, it is useful to consider ranged vs sword and board, because you have no single-handed ranged weapon options so far as I'm aware. So it's reasonable to compare the nice alternatives to a ranged weapon including sword and board, sometimes.

If we're just going to compare ranged weapon or 2handed melee weapon, the difference is:

Seeking Longbow with non-AA arrows, and you don't receive party buffs like GMW:
+5 AB
+5 dmg from STR
+2d12 massive crits
*enter extra mythal power here*
+1d12 damage arrow
+3 vamp regen from same arrow
Total crit range on literally any build: 19-20

I'm using the arrow you specified of course, I'm not that well versed in the different arrows, despite having a level 20 AA. I don't play him enough sadly.

Meanwhile, we have...

The Greatsword! Which I am intimately familiar with thanks to Frugdar being my main for 1.5 years!

Warforged Greatsword with party buffs:
+5 AB
+5 damage from enhancement
+19 damage from STR
+2d6 physical damage
Larger base damage to start with
+1d12 elemental damage
Keen
+2d6 massive crits I think..? Damn, maybe I'm not as well-acquainted as I thought I was.
Total crit range on WM: 13-20


I really don't see how they're equal. Honest, I don't. You could forego WM levels and be a rogue/SD with a greatsword for lolz, and get stupid strong sneak attacks, only using HiPS with mild to moderate amounts of hide/move silently for PvE purposes, to sneak attack people and cut them in half in one round. That would be weird as fuck, but it is probably doable.

What about monks with quarterstalves though?

Dude, STR monks with quarterstalves can be SCARY with damage.

Just lastnight I was in a party on Osiris, with a monk/AA and a monk/BG in the party, and we killed Snowy in like 2 rounds. The STR monk/BG was most of the damage. He kills the Loot in... Maybe 4 rounds at most?

Monks are fucking scary dude lol. I'm more terrified of him than I am of the monk/AA.



In short I don't think it's OP to give longbows 5 powers, my brain hurts, I am drinking lots of caffeine, I hope I at least formed a coherent argument even if you disagree with it

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Osiris Masud

In my opinion, we should buff crossbows and slings.

Or atleast give them a REAL ammo. Never have I even seen a bolt or bullet that could be even compared to arrows.

Can i ask, why the +3 vamp regen arrows? Unless you actually taking damage... which as a ranged fighter you actively avoid... you don't gain anything, unless it reduces the targets HP as it goes?

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When it rains, look for rainbows.
When it's dark, look for stars.

Sorry to wake you from your dream but they're not all stellar. The worst I've personally seen is the Bear. I've posted on it before, it's simply dreadful, even at 30, even buffed by a Druid, even in a party. Sorry for the tangent.

On this topic it's inevitable that class discussions will come into play since there is a class with this as its niche. If we were discussing adding -/10 DR to the Mythal table we'd end up discussing the impact with respect to Dwarven Defenders. Balance needs to be assessed broadly to avoid unintended consequences.

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Tark Hammerfeast - Immovable Object
True Greenspan - Bendir's Boy Wonder

Which is why I said there were exceptions.

Bear suffers because of a few factors but it is still marginally better than the panther/hawk/etc.

Dire Wolf/Badger/Dire Boar are all pretty powerful.

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Active
Levexal
Techsmith Tokas Tokersun - http://amiaworld.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=88661

I go with +3 Vamp Regen because there's literally nothing else to mythal onto ammunition (unless you have a Divine Mythal, which I will not assume).


You can use a shield with throwing axes!

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That's assuming I have a flawless one as well! lol

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When it rains, look for rainbows.
When it's dark, look for stars.

Get 2 friends

kill Phane

harvest mythal

???

Profit!

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Osiris Masud

+2 Vamp Regen is still useful! It helps negate environmental damage in PvM and the damage you might take from archers in spawns. It's especially useful in Brog, both on the mountainsides and in the Underkingdom.

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bows are fine. vamp regen is great when you consider what it's up against for those final mythal slots. flawlesses are easy to get. arcane archers arn't as good as their numbers indicate.

sorted.

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ANT ALARM

ANT ALARM

... yeah go on, suck the fun out of a debate! lol

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When it rains, look for rainbows.
When it's dark, look for stars.

#Thread

But seriously I'm gonna have to agree that buffing bows is sorta not something to do unless it's in some way that somehow makes it better to be an archer that isn't an elf.

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Playing: Tanar'i Shit Disturbers

Well that's silly.

Any buff to a weapon will make it better for everybody who uses that weapon, somehow.

I propose (don't know if I said this in my earlier posts) we cap AA's at like +7 or something, and take down a few of the arrows a notch. 2d12 electric on an arrow along with +10 enhancement is pretty awesome when the arrow also inflicts Daze (or stun. I forget which.)

Nothing too drastic, if anything at all.

Personally I don't feel AA's are "overpowered". It's just that monk/AA's can kite infinitely and use Called Shot whilst running to snipe people.

Actually... If you could remove that ability, and make Called Shot require you to stand still like an actual ability or something, that'd eliminate a lot of the OP'ness. AA's sniping people with called shot while running away with monk speed is like, a legendary PvP cheese tactic.

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Osiris Masud

You kidding me man? You are playing BOOSTED cleric and you are mad about Called Shot?

You NEED to stand still, if you are using Called Shot, you can't fire while moving.

OP'ness? Man, 70-80% of Amia population got maxed discipline + Discipline gloves, you really think they can beat STR based WM/Fighter/DD/Paladin/BG/Ranger? Using Called Shot only? You got to be kidding me, right?

And above all - THIS IS RP SERVER, god damn it. Are you really going mad about stupid builds? Like seriously?

(I have to say that, but even your cleric can shot down usual monk/AA with two spells, for their HP are very, VERY low... Greater ruin + Hell Ball = Good night.)

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Reynard d'Aubernon - Retired
Balaeyi Elandinai Haeren - Active
Jaezred Kilr'ae - Active

yeah called shot is a waste. just go ham with +10 arrows and rapid shot and use haste wands to kite, eventually they will roll a 1 to the myriad of oiler arrows around them at which point they just die.

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ANT ALARM

ANT ALARM

2?

solo frog w/ literally any summon.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

Whoa.

I don't know if this post was tongue in cheek, but if not, this was pretty aggressive, I specifically said I don't feel that AA is overpowered at all. I made one suggestion to alleviate other people's concerns with the class and you're jumping to many conclusions. Also, no, I'm not mad at AA's, lol. I play one.

1. I do not have trouble with AA's. Like you said, they usually have low HP. I also have the luxury of being able to escape from literally any fight I don't like, provided I don't stupidly let myself get KD'd by melee by failing to enter stealth/haven/use shadowjump (and if that happens, I deserve to die, lol.)

2. Last time I tried using Called Shot on my AA, I could run and use Called Shot at the same time. If this has been changed or if I was just bugging out, well, sucks to be me, but this was a thing I did on my AA to some monsters so I could solo on him.

3. No, 80% of the population of the server does not have discipline gloves. And the whole schtick about using called shot while running is not that you are going to reliably beat their discipline. It's that you can shoot people while running with monk speed (and possibly a haste potion). Infinite kiting. You can also use Oil Arrows or Stormtips or whatever you like, to decent effect. But like I said, if called shot has changed in the past year or so, then this is no longer a thing.

4. I have no idea what you're getting mad and shouting about "THIS IS RP SERVER". What are you talking about?

I genuinely don't understand about half of your post, it just looks angry to me.

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Osiris Masud

Bypassing everything. Monk/AA needs no boosting. OP is trying to buff what he plays. Doesn't care about balance.

Hey guys sorry I forgot about arrows LOL! AA doesn't need a boost, I'm liking it just fine. I do play one but I legit just forgot that my arrows have pretty dank effects on them which are def worthy of using powers.



That was pretty rude and personal.

No, longbows are stronger than any other ranged weapon as it is already.

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