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[ 34 posts ] |
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#StraightOutaAvernus
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 Posted: Thu, Apr 28 2016, 1:23 AM |
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Player
Joined: 10 Nov 2015
Location: WHY SHOULD I TELL YOU WHERE WHEN YOU'RE ABOUT TO DIE?! NGAAAAAAAAAH!!!!!
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For those whom consider the title unclear, an explanation.
A few of you're aware I used to play on another server -- in which instead of hacks, the code engine was tinkered to give a few unique features, as well as improve and streamline the existing system to what level was possible. Among many of these programming perks that were had, one of them was simply thus: Activating a combat mode leaves it active until the next time the button is pressed -- to include after combat, when moving, and before combat.
For instance; I could turn on Improved Expertise during a boss encounter, teleport to Wiltun, open a conversation and sell things, and return to grinding; all without ever once dropping my combat mode.
It's apparently a simple thing to adjust, too.
Because turning on and off expertise between every single spawn is painful.
_________________ Playing: Tanar'i Shit Disturbers
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Naivatkal
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Posted: Thu, Apr 28 2016, 1:42 AM |
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Player
Joined: 26 May 2010
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This has been discussed before and I believe the consensus is 'no' to the idea.
I'll agree with that, +5 AC 24/7 is not something we want.
_________________
Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming
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#StraightOutaAvernus
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Posted: Thu, Apr 28 2016, 1:46 AM |
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Player
Joined: 10 Nov 2015
Location: WHY SHOULD I TELL YOU WHERE WHEN YOU'RE ABOUT TO DIE?! NGAAAAAAAAAH!!!!!
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Naivatkal wrote: This has been discussed before and I believe the consensus is 'no' to the idea.
I'll agree with that, +5 AC 24/7 is not something we want. To be fair, that's +5 AC at the cost of 5 AB; and if that 5 points of AC for that price is enough to make the difference in you hitting them or not, making it possible to trap the player in terrain to force the combat mode to drop doesn't seem like the right thing to encourage. For those concerns regarding cheese ball usage; it deactivated while casting, just like the current one does. _________________ Playing: Tanar'i Shit Disturbers
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davis114
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Posted: Thu, Apr 28 2016, 1:54 AM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2007
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Davis approves.
_________________  MoshingChris wrote: Dude makes like a drunk even when he's sober.
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Sharl
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Posted: Thu, Apr 28 2016, 2:14 AM |
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Player
Joined: 02 Mar 2016
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This is a feature in Neverwinter Nights 2 and something that I really, really miss. But yeah, it's not like any of these combat modes are just straight 'Have some free buffs!', they all come at a cost - And having to spend a round putting on combat casting, having my target move out of range so I have to move and drop out of combat casting to get them, well... That's just not fun, okay?
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That Guy
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Posted: Thu, Apr 28 2016, 2:24 AM |
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Player
Joined: 13 Nov 2014
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And.. let's not forget the Ai likes to run away and come back to you when they are "near death", automatically turning off your combat mode without your consent. I'm all for this constant combat mode idea.
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Naivatkal
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Posted: Thu, Apr 28 2016, 2:30 AM |
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Player
Joined: 26 May 2010
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The same went for all of the combat modes, though Expertise was the biggest reason for the 'no'. Sorry, I'm not seeing any arguments that would convince me this is something good to add.
_________________
Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming
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treasured memories
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Posted: Thu, Apr 28 2016, 2:48 AM |
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Player
Joined: 09 Nov 2015
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This is convenience, not balance. C'mon.
_________________
so he would always have a friend
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#StraightOutaAvernus
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Posted: Thu, Apr 28 2016, 3:01 AM |
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Player
Joined: 10 Nov 2015
Location: WHY SHOULD I TELL YOU WHERE WHEN YOU'RE ABOUT TO DIE?! NGAAAAAAAAAH!!!!!
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treasured memories wrote: This is convenience, not balance. C'mon. ^ The only reason it is 'ever' a balance thing, in fact, is literally because of a bug. After a certain amount of pathfinding movement in any combative mode, the combat mode is immediately turned off. This forces the player to toggle it back on; potentially being forgotten and worse, taking an entire round to re-activate even if you do (and aborting that round of attacks, by the way). It's one of those things that was just never done right -- like Circle Kick; and even if it could be done that the mode maintains until the combat is considered aborted (when "you are too excited to rest/talk right now" stops showing), it would simply be a bug fix.I'll gladly settle for that, as a compromise; but right now I'm to understand I'm being told that it's 100% legal to use my flight widget to knock out expertise -- and that that's considered a balancing component of the feat? _________________ Playing: Tanar'i Shit Disturbers
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Thu, Apr 28 2016, 3:17 AM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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For the sake of argument: Turning on and off combat modes does not void out rounds of attacks, nor doe susing things like Knockdown or Disarm. Using items will.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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davis114
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Posted: Thu, Apr 28 2016, 3:38 AM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2007
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TormakSaber wrote: For the sake of argument: Turning on and off combat modes does not void out rounds of attacks, nor doe susing things like Knockdown or Disarm. Using items will. True story. It just waits until the beginning of the next round to activate. That in itself could be a happy medium. Forcing it to activate without waiting for the next round. Though I imagine that would be more complicated than making it just straight toggle. _________________ MoshingChris wrote: Dude makes like a drunk even when he's sober.
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PassionateShadow
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Posted: Thu, Apr 28 2016, 4:24 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Jun 2014
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if you can turn the sticky mode on and off then I like this idea.
It's a bit repetitious telling my monk I always want flurry on.
_________________ ❤ Amia is Fun Again! ❤
#GreenisNotACreativeColour "It's easy to feel like a hero. It's a little harder to be one."
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OpenTheRift
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Posted: Thu, Apr 28 2016, 6:18 AM |
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Player
Joined: 17 Feb 2014
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Yes for flurry of blows no for +AC. Nothing more annoying than a guy always having +10 AC for literally nothing while flatfooted.
_________________
bad man
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Nalkanar
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Posted: Thu, Apr 28 2016, 6:45 AM |
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Player
Joined: 07 Jan 2015
Location: Central Europe
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You do realize, that skilled enough player can be in Expertise 90% of time anyways, right? When you click for movement, you can start expertise. When you stand idle somewhere, you can have it on etc.
_________________
Zendaer Amattis
Torgon Crimsonshade
Khalid Athanalo
CET time zone
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OpenTheRift
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Posted: Thu, Apr 28 2016, 6:46 AM |
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Player
Joined: 17 Feb 2014
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_________________
bad man
Last edited by OpenTheRift on Thu, Apr 28 2016, 6:54 AM, edited 1 time in total.
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Nalkanar
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Posted: Thu, Apr 28 2016, 6:48 AM |
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Player
Joined: 07 Jan 2015
Location: Central Europe
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And saying "no" to this idea because it is "too OP" sounds just silly.
_________________
Zendaer Amattis
Torgon Crimsonshade
Khalid Athanalo
CET time zone
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OpenTheRift
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Posted: Thu, Apr 28 2016, 7:13 AM |
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Player
Joined: 17 Feb 2014
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when the standard AC - AB disparity is already in the 10-15 point range in favor of AC we do not want something swinging that to a 30-35 point disparity when all builds start purchasing improved expertise.
_________________
bad man
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Akhlys
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Posted: Thu, Apr 28 2016, 15:52 PM |
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Player
Joined: 17 Feb 2015
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I'd like it for flurry of blows and rapid shot for certain. If it was implemented for expertise I'd want the feats to be nerfed to -3 ab/ +3 ac for expertise, and -6 ab/ +6 ac for improved expertise or make the AC gained into dodge AC so it won't affect being flat footed. Going in to assassinate someone just to find them having 60 ac during a flat-footed flurry is pretty retarded.
_________________ Ｍ Ａ Ｉ Ｔ Ｉ
Ｔ Ａ Ｔ Ｕ
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treasured memories
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Posted: Thu, Apr 28 2016, 16:52 PM |
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Player
Joined: 09 Nov 2015
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Akhlys wrote: I'd like it for flurry of blows and rapid shot for certain. If it was implemented for expertise I'd want the feats to be nerfed to -3 ab/ +3 ac for expertise, and -6 ab/ +6 ac for improved expertise or make the AC gained into dodge AC so it won't affect being flat footed. Going in to assassinate someone just to find them having 60 ac during a flat-footed flurry is pretty retarded. But anyone with expertise should have it on anyway... Or could have it on, at the least. And really, is this worth putting off? It's PvM convenience 99.9% of the time.
_________________
so he would always have a friend
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No_Dice_13
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Posted: Thu, Apr 28 2016, 19:32 PM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Feb 2008
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I am a no on the expertise and imp expertise, it is a combat mode feat that means it is meant to be activated during combat not something you are supposed to have on all the time. For the sake of rp as well it shouldn't be allowed folks just standing around with imp expertise on all the time just so they get that bonus to ac when who knows what will happen just seems unfair. And lets not forget those WM or AA with crazy ab -10 or -5 ab is nothing for them for the price of that bonus ac giving them a huge advantage. If this is just for PvM then leave as it is I don't see any reason as to how this will make it easier for PvM I played Dicey just fine using Imp Expertise turning it on and off if you know how to do it right. As for things like flurry of blows or Rapid Shot I think it might be worth testing out I don't see a huge issue with it but still leaning more to a no because I don't think it is fair to say no to one combat mode feat and yes to others. I have also played on a server with that system implemented and although some liked it some also hated it and it did cause some grief among players.
_________________
Active Characters:
Eugene Quickfingers - Feytastic Hin Sorcerer
Norick Darkmoore - The Mage with a Kick
Ricket Ashgather - The Hin with Attitude
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NinjaClarinet
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Posted: Thu, Apr 28 2016, 19:37 PM |
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Player
Joined: 12 Jul 2010
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I'm all for ease of use changes. As for worries about Expertise being kept on while idling: Make it so that expertise can't be turned on without a weapon equipped. Make it so that expertise turns off when a weapon is unequipped. Problem sorted.
If you have your weapon drawn and ready it seems fair to get the AC.
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Naivatkal
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Posted: Thu, Apr 28 2016, 22:04 PM |
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Player
Joined: 26 May 2010
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What about unarmed monks? They don't equip weapons. And you can't just say 'only if gloves are on' because other classes use gloves, too.
It's just not a good idea.
_________________
Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming
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NinjaClarinet
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Posted: Thu, Apr 28 2016, 22:09 PM |
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Player
Joined: 12 Jul 2010
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It's plenty fine idea. Make an exception in the script for characters with Weapon Focus: Unarmed strike, if you're so worried about monks. I'd argue that monks have the training to maintain that level of vigilance anyway.
Let's be honest: The PvP rules themselves shit on people trying to get the jump on other characters. The situations where another character is completely unaware about an incoming hit are very, very rare.
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#StraightOutaAvernus
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Posted: Thu, Apr 28 2016, 22:16 PM |
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Player
Joined: 10 Nov 2015
Location: WHY SHOULD I TELL YOU WHERE WHEN YOU'RE ABOUT TO DIE?! NGAAAAAAAAAH!!!!!
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Akhlys wrote: I'd like it for flurry of blows and rapid shot for certain. If it was implemented for expertise I'd want the feats to be nerfed to -3 ab/ +3 ac for expertise, and -6 ab/ +6 ac for improved expertise or make the AC gained into dodge AC so it won't affect being flat footed. Going in to assassinate someone just to find them having 60 ac during a flat-footed flurry is pretty retarded. As a counterpoint, anyone that's actively flatfooted with the PvP rules is just bad anyway. Standing still during a PvP engagement is literally 100% worse, 100% of the time, than even just mashing "q" and "e" because you know you can't hit them; and if I interpret the rules properly, there's no 'legal' way for someone to not know it's coming. but -- you know. Another one of those things we learn I guess. No_Dice_13 wrote: WM or AA with crazy ab -10 or -5 ab is nothing for them for the price of that bonus ac giving them a huge advantage. AA can't use expertise. Weaponmasters attempting to engage a DEX build with it on are doing nothing more than making the twenty fest a two way affair unless the DEX build is bad. EDIT: For quick reference; I'm again seeing no solid arguments against this that don't support the consensus that using pathfinding to break combat modes is a okay. _________________ Playing: Tanar'i Shit Disturbers
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Fri, Apr 29 2016, 4:20 AM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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Quote: EDIT: For quick reference; I'm again seeing no solid arguments against this that don't support the consensus that using pathfinding to break combat modes is a okay. If you're trying to use threats to exploit game mechanics as an argument to get your way, you're going about this completely the wrong way, and I suggest you stop, real quick.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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#StraightOutaAvernus
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Posted: Fri, Apr 29 2016, 6:31 AM |
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Player
Joined: 10 Nov 2015
Location: WHY SHOULD I TELL YOU WHERE WHEN YOU'RE ABOUT TO DIE?! NGAAAAAAAAAH!!!!!
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TormakSaber wrote: Quote: EDIT: For quick reference; I'm again seeing no solid arguments against this that don't support the consensus that using pathfinding to break combat modes is a okay. If you're trying to use threats to exploit game mechanics as an argument to get your way, you're going about this completely the wrong way, and I suggest you stop, real quick. Was actually not intended to be a matter of me doing it -- though, apologies in the sincerest. >,< My focus was more directed toward the concept that making it persist throughout the engagement regardless of circumstances seems to keep being viewed in a 'balance' sense, and I don't quite understand where the argument for that can be validly upheld without amounting to just that: 'Making' the fact that it cuts off a point of balance. To put it in a less self-implicative way, I'm simply trying to understand where the mechanical issue would lie in adding convenience to a mode that's annoying to fumble with; outside of 'intentionally' making it a trouble? It's the same tradeoff regardless of wether you're mashing the hotkey or not, after all. _________________ Playing: Tanar'i Shit Disturbers
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rafaelmacgyver
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Posted: Fri, Apr 29 2016, 15:18 PM |
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Player
Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Location: Rio de Janeiro - Brazil
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Power Attack always ON pls!!!
With a toggle to turn it off ofcourse...
_________________ Wilfire Strongfeet (Tight pants) Adela Griffonheart (Poke) Hallvardr Erikson (Sexy Boy) Emilly MacMillan (Happy)   Sprites by Raua!
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Kudark
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Posted: Fri, Apr 29 2016, 16:50 PM |
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Player
Joined: 14 Dec 2009
Location: The Dark Side of the Moon
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Like it or not, No_Dice_13 has it right. The name of the Feat is Combat Expertise. The opening description states "When you use the attack action or the full attack action in melee..."
Also, a character that does not have the Feat can choose to fight defensively with a -4 to attack and +2 to AC. It says nothing about just standing around hoping for a fight, because this is a combat Feat, not something passive. And yes, I'm quoting the Player's Handbook because apparently some are having a difficult time understanding the difference between a combat Feat, and a passive Feat.
_________________ 
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NinjaClarinet
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Posted: Fri, Apr 29 2016, 17:46 PM |
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Player
Joined: 12 Jul 2010
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The phb is for a turn based game where you have ample time to declare your actions. Poor equivalency.
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Kudark
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Posted: Fri, Apr 29 2016, 18:00 PM |
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Player
Joined: 14 Dec 2009
Location: The Dark Side of the Moon
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That... doesn't even make sense here. The PHb describes what the Feat is intended for in quite a bit more detail, as it does for just about everything. Here, this is for you to better understand what the Feat is for: (taken from NWN)Quote: Specifics: A character with this feat can make defensive attacks, gaining a +5 bonus to AC but receiving a -5 penalty to attack rolls.
Use: combat mode So clearly, it is intended for use when attacking, and not standing around with your thu... you get the point. _________________
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Richard_Edmund
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Posted: Fri, Apr 29 2016, 18:04 PM |
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Player
Joined: 23 Sep 2012
Location: Western Australia (+8 GMT)
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Maybe just give it an idle time-out. If you're not engaged in combat after an hour (2 turns) then it just switches off. That's usually ample time for people who are dueling to get engaged in battle. Which then it follows regular scripting and stays on until it's deactivated or the combat round ends.
Players Hand Book might be one of the core rulebooks, but rulebooks are supplemental here, Not a Holy Bible.
_________________
Elwyn Sabel - Laura Jarshall - Mordoc Ebonhand
Discord: Bhaalorian#5715
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NinjaClarinet
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Posted: Fri, Apr 29 2016, 18:10 PM |
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Player
Joined: 12 Jul 2010
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Counterspell is a combat mode. Plainly we should change it so that it is usable only after combat has been initiated.
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Richard_Edmund
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Posted: Fri, Apr 29 2016, 18:20 PM |
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Player
Joined: 23 Sep 2012
Location: Western Australia (+8 GMT)
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Counter Spell is different in that you can't simply have it active and receive a bonus. You need to select a specific target and if that target disappeared, it cancels the mode. You also don't receive a moderate to massive AC or Damage bonus from Counter Spell. It'd be stupid to have a blanket script for all combat modes, because they're not all equal. 
_________________
Elwyn Sabel - Laura Jarshall - Mordoc Ebonhand
Discord: Bhaalorian#5715
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#StraightOutaAvernus
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Posted: Sat, Apr 30 2016, 1:15 AM |
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Player
Joined: 10 Nov 2015
Location: WHY SHOULD I TELL YOU WHERE WHEN YOU'RE ABOUT TO DIE?! NGAAAAAAAAAH!!!!!
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Ah. So -- on principle. Right. I can take that argument, and it does make some sense. Given that and the other opinions, which seem to amount to stomping out the possibility for high flatfooted AC and upholding immersion; could it be possible to meet in the middle -- and allow Power Attack/Expertise/Rapid Shot/Flurry of Blows to stay active, even if moving, 'while' in combat though? Or is that a stretch for programming?
Obviously, not Combat Casting; for the reasons said above.
Something like… hit something, turn on, and then unless deactivated it doesn't go down until you can rest. (When the rest button locks up because you 'may not rest at this time'? Yeah. Then. Keep it active then.)
This'd solve people using it outside combat, and keep the 'while in combat' flavor, if it's possible.
_________________ Playing: Tanar'i Shit Disturbers
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