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I've always found it annoying how things like expertise or rapid shot end,
as soon as there's no more immediate targets.

Which had me thinking, can't we make it so it's toggleable and that it'll last then?
Until you turn if off again, that is.

Would be nice.

It's really obnoxious when it takes a round or two for those things to kick on as well, particularly with combat casting or expertise. Or you have to move because you get 'cannot reach enemy!' when it's just standing there and your char is too lazy to path 2 feet to the right on its own.

If you could just leave it on, there would be no problems.

AirPhforce wrote:

Would be nice.

It's really obnoxious when it takes a round or two for those things to kick on as well, particularly with combat casting or expertise. Or you have to move because you get 'cannot reach enemy!' when it's just standing there and your char is too lazy to path 2 feet to the right on its own.

If you could just leave it on, there would be no problems.

Exactly what I mean!

Imho, improved expertise while flatfooted is not a good idea.

BasicHuman wrote:

Imho, improved expertise while flatfooted is not a good idea.

What about just making stuff like rapid shot, power attack and anything not expertise such then?

Especially with rapid shot, you can't move without it dropping.

Besides, you can turn expertise on while flatfooted anyway?

Lilja_91 wrote:

Besides, you can turn expertise on while flatfooted anyway?

Doesn't it turn off again by itself after a few seconds if not in combat? I thought it did.

I guess power attack etc would not be an issue.

BasicHuman wrote:

Lilja_91 wrote:

Besides, you can turn expertise on while flatfooted anyway?

Doesn't it turn off again by itself after a few seconds if not in combat? I thought it did.

I guess power attack etc would not be an issue.

You can stand flat-footed and with imp. expertise if you force it and there are other tricks.
But I'd be happy if it's just made for Rapid Shot at least. You literally can't move with it on, or it toggles off.

Lilja_91 wrote:

BasicHuman wrote:

Lilja_91 wrote:

Besides, you can turn expertise on while flatfooted anyway?

Doesn't it turn off again by itself after a few seconds if not in combat? I thought it did.

I guess power attack etc would not be an issue.

You can stand flat-footed and with imp. expertise if you force it and there are other tricks.
But I'd be happy if it's just made for Rapid Shot at least. You literally can't move with it on, or it toggles off.

and combat casting.

Sometimes you need to click it a few times and move around, but you can stand around flatfooted while in any combat mode. I do it all the time with Elwyn.

Once you move though, it deactivates unless you're attacking something.

Lilja_91 wrote:

But I'd be happy if it's just made for Rapid Shot at least. You literally can't move with it on, or it toggles off.

As the rapid shot feat is representative of taking a full round action and gaining an extra attack, of course you cannot move. If you needed to move, you would not be standing in place, drawing another arrow from your quiver, knocking it, sighting on an enemy and loosing it at them. You would instead be... moving. Add to that the extra arrow is at your highest attack bonus, it's already chock full of advantages, a small price to pay for having to click or smash the F-key for what ever quickslot it's in before you click on an enemy.

Bravo21 wrote:

Lilja_91 wrote:

But I'd be happy if it's just made for Rapid Shot at least. You literally can't move with it on, or it toggles off.

As the rapid shot feat is representative of taking a full round action and gaining an extra attack, of course you cannot move. If you needed to move, you would not be standing in place, drawing another arrow from your quiver, knocking it, sighting on an enemy and loosing it at them. You would instead be... moving. Add to that the extra arrow is at your highest attack bonus, it's already chock full of advantages, a small price to pay for having to click or smash the F-key for what ever quickslot it's in before you click on an enemy.

What you're saying is logical, I agree.
But not representative in the ruleset as there's no description for what actually occurs.
Likewise, I am going to argue that characters who usually use Rapid Shot have so much dex that they can prepare an extra arrow even while moving.
And the -2 is always on, meaning it reflect the penalty for doing so / using rapid shot.

I don't see how while moving, or even stopping during that time, doesn't let you prepare another arrow and once you've stopped to fire another volley.
Meaning, you can have rapid fire toggled on, because you're simply focused to act swiftly for the next attack. I do not see how moving is going to prevent you from doing all of this.

Rapid Shot is not about dexterity, a 13 is the minimum requirement, and it's a Feat even available to fighters. It's about taking the time to fire off an additional arrow, at your highest attack bonus, during your volley of arrows. Those goblins are swarming you, so you blast off a bunch of arrows, then you see a nice head shot, so you take a second to focus and fire, all in six seconds. That's why it's a full round action, for the time and focus needed to get two shots off at your best ability, along with several other shots.

Isn't it just shooting faster at the expense of accuracy?

Kudark wrote:

it's a Feat even available to fighters.

Well yeah, fighter is the most common class for normal archers.

Larsaan wrote:

Isn't it just shooting faster at the expense of accuracy?

It's not really shooting faster, you can do that with Haste, it's getting off two of your best shots, along with all the rest, rather than just one of your best shots.
The PHB description of the benefit is: "You can get one extra attack per round with a ranged weapon." So in my opinion, the Feat is misnamed, as it's not really rapid, but an extra very good attack per round.

Larsaan wrote:

Kudark wrote:

it's a Feat even available to fighters.

Well yeah, fighter is the most common class for normal archers.

It's a Bonus Feat for fighters, 2nd level archer rangers get it for free (in light, or no armor).

It's not your best shots, though, 'cause they're less accurate. And I don't really see the difference between "shooting faster" and "shooting more often per round", since rounds are just a unit of time.

Larsaan wrote:

It's not your best shots, though, 'cause they're less accurate. And I don't really see the difference between "shooting faster" and "shooting more often per round", since rounds are just a unit of time.

It is your best shot though. The Feat gives you one more of your best shots, per round, if you so choose. Shooting faster, is shooting the same amount of arrows in less than a six second round. Shooting more often per round, is shooting more arrows in the six second round.

Kudark wrote:

Larsaan wrote:

It's not your best shots, though, 'cause they're less accurate. And I don't really see the difference between "shooting faster" and "shooting more often per round", since rounds are just a unit of time.

It is your best shot though. The Feat gives you one more of your best shots, per round, if you so choose. Shooting faster, is shooting the same amount of arrows in less than a six second round. Shooting more often per round, is shooting more arrows in the six second round.

So what, with haste you're shooting faster and shooting more often all at the same time?
The fact you lose AB should very much attest to that you shoot faster, because you're taking less time to aim.
Why it's at your highest AB is purely mechanical balance, the feat would be pretty useless otherwise.

You forget both D&D and NWN at its base wasn't made for high level characters, that's something that came later.
So that -2 to AB might seem little on Amia, but in the D&D it was created is quite debilitating when your max level was like 10 - 20.

The fact it has a dex requirement, is very much proof of that it is an action based in dexterity. Otherwise it simply wouldn't be dex.
The arguement "fighters get it" is irrelevant to the case you're making.

I don't like the idea of permenant defensive toggles, but I can get behind the offensive ones bring permanent. Sitting in expertise mode should be an active decision, as it's representative of fighting in full defensive mode in pnp.

But power attack or rapid shot should certainly be second nature, being fighting styles that don't affect how you actively defend yourself.

Lilja_91 wrote:

So what, with haste you're shooting faster and shooting more often all at the same time?
The fact you lose AB should very much attest to that you shoot faster, because you're taking less time to aim.
Why it's at your highest AB is purely mechanical balance, the feat would be pretty useless otherwise.

@ Haste, yes, along with the feat.
Of course there is a penalty, you're getting an extra attack, at your highest bonus, we don't live in a perfect world, and D&D reflects that. Evidence of this is the 1 failure. And technically you're shooting faster, to get the extra attack off, thus the penalty.

Quote:

You forget both D&D and NWN at its base wasn't made for high level characters, that's something that came later.
So that -2 to AB might seem little on Amia, but in the D&D it was created is quite debilitating when your max level was like 10 - 20.

The -2 can make a difference, when Amia is balanced more for fairness. We're a role-play server focused more on RP than combat, though combat has a big role in the role-play, thus the balance.

Quote:

The fact it has a dex requirement, is very much proof of that it is an action based in dexterity. Otherwise it simply wouldn't be dex.
The arguement "fighters get it" is irrelevant to the case you're making.

True, because archery is Dex based, thus the requirement, but it's low.
I used the fighter reference because it's mentioned in the Feat description, so I found it relevant.

Something to keep in mind:

http://www.amiaworld.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=66363&p=1111610&hilit=Hardcoded#p1111610

If I understand correctly, a large part of this is hardcoded.

Lilja_91 wrote:

But not representative in the ruleset as there's no description for what actually occurs.
Likewise, I am going to argue that characters who usually use Rapid Shot have so much dex that they can prepare an extra arrow even while moving.

By that logic, if a fighter has enough strength, he should have an extra attack, at his best AB and be able to perform another action as well at a minor penalty. Sure, I'll take five DevCrit's a round for my weapon master thank you.

The lack of description is the error on the part of the programmers at Bioware not the game it is based on. Differences in game mechanics notwithstanding, a round consists of two action phases, you can move at your full movement rate only by using both actions to do so. Or, you can attack, once, and move half of your movement allowance. Of finally, you can take all of the attacks you are qualified to take by not moving and only receiving a step instead. The game mechanic is simplified and changed for NWN, but it remains the mechanic that it was originally made to emulate, because players are bitchy when they can't run and gun in a computer game.

Lasting Combat Feats

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