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Overneath
 
PostPosted: Wed, Feb 03 2016, 19:56 PM 

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Overneath wrote:
This post is going to be a lot more in-depth, and I hope it doesn't get buried this time. I don't mean that in a passive-aggressive sense, either - in threads like these, so many ideas are flying around all at once that sometimes a few get lost in the storm. Now there's a lull, however, I think it's time to be more specific. I'll divide this issue into my thoughts on races and my thoughts on classes.

  Races

Races aren't as lackluster or questionable, for the most part, as some of the classes can be. That said, there are some oddities among them as leftovers simply because pieces aren't used/nobody thought to change them/nobody thought they NEEDED a change.

Racial Bonuses: This is just something that's irksome to me, personally. -4 to an ability score needs to die. There have to be better ways to balance a race without starting off your character as some sort of cripple. The races in question are Goblin, Kobold, Svirfneblin and Duergar and...is it just me, or is -4 to Charisma some sort of byword here? It seems to be saying 'we want this race to have some sort of major penalty to excuse the other features, but also don't want to subtract anything important'. Charisma is a VERY well-known dump-stat, which means if a straight -2 isn't enough to dissuade you, -4 certainly won't, but if -2 HURTS, then -4 is almost insurmountable.

I do, however, want to focus on goblin and kobold, whose stat penalties are, in my opinion, bordering on inexcusable. The justification I've been given before is that, if you're going to play a 'monster' race, then you deserve to be penalized mechanically as well as socially for stepping outside the 'bounds of the norm'. A cursory look at our player base highlights that as perilously close to comedy, as I very much call into question logic that states you should be penalized for playing a goblin or kobold, which are very common (if, granted, not exactly friendly), but mechanically REWARDED for playing a part-dragon winged abomination. One of those is more likely to be run out of town by superstitious townsfolk, and frankly it's not the lonesome 3-foot-tall vermin.

I'm not saying kobold and goblin characters shouldn't be ostracized to some degree, but I DO maintain that they have a place on the server, and it serves no one to hit them with half of the largest ability score penalties just for taking that place. Moreover, if you REALLY don't want just anyone playing a kobold or a goblin...make them a platinum coin race. Isn't the separation of 'normal' races and 'extraordinary' or 'unusual' ones exactly what that feature was designed for?

For the record, the very strange mix of features svirfneblin get to begin with also irks me, but the majority of those are straight out of the books. Granted, so are the penalties I'm arguing for reducing (NOT removing), but...what exactly are svirfneblin supposed to be in the absence of an NPC class? A druid/shadowdancer? They get a net -4 to their ability scores in addition to a potpourri of defensive passive attributes, but personally I think they'd be better served with just the basic gnome ability scores and those. And then don't touch the ECL. I assume it's there primarily because of those...somewhat obscene aforementioned passives, and not because they have a +2 to Wisdom.

ECL's: Hold your groans, audience. I'm not going to trod all over the hot-button-issue of outright removing ECLs from races. I just think they need to be reconsidered a bit in light of changes already made. ECLs on Orogs, Genasi, and Svirfneblin were all altered already, and a long time ago, in fact, but those changes left a few holes. I'm not going to delve into the choice of making Genasi +0, either, mostly because I think it's neater than it is shocking.

No, let's talk about Ogrillions.

Ogrillions gain +2 Strength, +2 Constitution, -2 Intelligence and -2 Charisma. They also get +2 Natural AC.

Earth Genasi get +2 Strength, +2 Constitution, -2 Wisdom and -2 Charisma. They also get Stoneskin at their level once per day.

Not so different, really. Except that the Ogrillion subrace HAS A +1 ECL. It's not for the AC bonus - it's negated the instant you set foot into mid-levels and find a decent amulet, and stoneskin's DR is infinitely superior. Is it...because they have a penalty to intelligence instead of wisdom?

No, I find it more likely that this is just a simple oversight. Understandable, since very, very, very few people play half-orcs, let alone their subraces. But we'll get to that.

Another thing I want to point out are the other two planetouched races, Tieflings and Aasimar. I can see why they still have an ECL - they have a net +2 and a net +4 to ability scores, in comparison to the genasi net +0. I'm not suggesting this be changed, I'm merely bringing up the contrast given changes already made to genasi.

Half-Elves: I've said it before and I'll say it again. Please. PLEASE make this race DO something. If you change NOTHING ELSE about the entire race system from here until eternity, I beg of you, give half-elves some love. Every other race and every other subrace (except, you guessed it, their own, half-drow) either has ability score bonuses or features that are just as good, if not better, like humans. This race has such rich potential, but on a server with as much mechanical consideration as our own, their lack of distinctive, competitive features brings them down to the ground and then stomps on them for chuckles. Since I've made this argument before, I'll state my specific change again: -2 Wisdom, +2 Charisma.

We don't have any non-ECL base races with a Charisma bonus, but we have a whopping 12 races (including two base ones!) with Charisma penalties. This is such a horribly neglected stat that it's no wonder almost all of our paladins and sorcerers belong to one of three races, two of which have ECLs. Rosary, as in all things, is an exception.

"But wait!" the savvy among you are saying, "we have Durpari! THEY have a +2 bonus to Charisma, and no ECL!" Well spotted!

That makes it even more ridiculous to deny half-elves the same.

Durpari keep their base human bonuses, get ANOTHER bonus feat, have a net-0 ability score range, no ECL, and +2 Charisma. Hell, +2 CHA/-2 WIS is mechanically weaker than that because Durpari give -1 to 2 instead of -2 to 1. Worried about too many half-elven bards and sorcerers? Tough beans - half-elves are explicitly supposed to be exemplary BOTH of those things, because of their creative talents in the former case and their elven ancestral magic in the latter.

Honestly, I can't help but feel half-elves only haven't been changed yet because no one is pushing for them to change. They're just forgotten. Durpari stand as a magnificent example AGAINST arguments of why they shouldn't get this bonus, and the fact that all other standard races get ability score bonuses or better is a magnificent example FOR why they should. We have 7 base races, not 6, people - I think it's high time we made that seventh feel loved.

Half-Orcs: Well. ALMOST 7.

Here's the thing about half-orcs. They're not just at the level half-elves are at, they're strictly mechanically weaker than their base race counterparts. Don't give me any of the old lines about how their +2 STR makes up for a -2 to mental stats - Earth Genasi get strictly better bonuses, AND stoneskin, for no ECL now. It's ridiculous that they still have a net -2 to ability scores. I don't even believe it's up for debate, and I don't say that lightly. So I'll be brief with this one.

Get rid of Ogrillion. Give half-orcs a +2 to Constitution. Call it a day. They'd still be slightly inferior to genasi, but that's countered by slightly different mental penalties and a much more acceptable flavor. If you play an earth genasi with 6 in two mental stats, you're going to be called cheesy. If you do the same with a half-orc, it's just expected.

There IS an option two, and I like it much better. Remove the half-orc's -2 penalty to Charisma. This would put them on a perfectly level playing field with all other base races and make them unique in the process. Once again - we HAVE TWELVE races/subraces with a Charisma penalty. It's really, really old, people. But intelligence penalties? Strictly the domain of half-orcs, ogrillions, and (with a dose of hilarious irony) half of the elven subraces. Giving half-orcs a +0 Charisma makes more sense than it first appears, too: they may be ugly, but Charisma also accounts for presence and intimidation. However unseemly they appear, when a 7-foot hunk of scowling meat walks into a room and shouts at you, you pay attention. It doesn't call for a BONUS to Charisma, but a -2 Intelligence alone suits them better and makes them stand out more among the other races.

Kobolds: It bears mentioning again, purely because I am a kobold fanatic and I know we are host to several other kobold fanatics. Lower the Strength penalty to -2. Really. You're not going to see a sudden rampant influx of kobold Barbarian/Weapon Masters (although sweet Sune, that sounds amazing), but a -4 penalty to ANYTHING is so mechanically vindictive that it gives the sense you're not SUPPOSED to play it. If that's the case, once more, Platinum Coin them. I don't think we should, though.



That's races. Wordy, like I expected, but I tried to hone in on the issues I saw. I won't post my class change ideas JUST yet. I should do more research on the subject and fine-tune my suggestions, plus this is enough text for people to mull over for one post.


This was posted in the wrong place. It's a call for an active change, not wishful thinking.

That said, I want to try and enforce something new, here. If you see this post and agree with it, tell me so. If you disagree, state why. A single-post thread with no commentary serves absolutely no one, ESPECIALLY when a change is being called for.

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Commie
 
PostPosted: Wed, Feb 03 2016, 20:53 PM 

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Remove all ecl's and favored class mechanics.

Antiqued system.

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Overneath
 
PostPosted: Wed, Feb 03 2016, 21:55 PM 

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AirPhforce wrote:
Remove all ecl's and favored class mechanics.

Antiqued system.


I DO think that there is something to be said for the idea of favored classes. Certain races are simply better, socially and physically/mentally, at certain tasks or professions. But as with any RPG, penalizing someone for NOT doing something is much worse than rewarding them for doing it. In lieu of favored classes, I would generally prefer that a character gains some sort of benefit from being primarily a member of their race's favored class. Elves might gain an additional spell slot, or several spell slot, if their majority levels are wizard, gnome Illusionists might gain additional DC bonuses, half-orcs might gain a special rage...

In general, though, it's much easier mechanically to institute an effective level bonus for favored classes, rather than going through and tailoring a unique bonus for each race. The opposite of an ECL, if you would - a +1 effective level bonus to the favored class for class features if the favored class has the most levels of any class, much like the effective bonus palemasters add to necromancy caster levels.

It does leave genasi and dwarves in the dust, but for Favored Class: Fighter, an extra bonus feat at level 30 works just as well.

Alternatively, instead of a penalty for multiclassing, give an XP bonus for single-classing or class-focusing under the same parameters.

Or just eliminate it entirely, yes. I doubt anyone would notice.


As for ECLs...they don't accomplish what they're supposed to, it's true. But the common argument I could potentially see is that if no ECLs exist, what mechanical reason could you have NOT to be a surface drow instead of an elf, or an aasimar/tiefling instead of...anything else? That inability to get the last two levels is a very major component of keeping the other races relevant - the other way around is why you don't see (m)any half-elves or half-orcs.

In a perfect world, we'd play races according to our characters, but...Amia has a very, very solid mechanics focus. Roleplay is just not the foremost/only consideration when the majority of people make their characters. It's not my place to say whether it's right or wrong, it's simply a set of circumstances that exists.

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Lilja_91
 
PostPosted: Wed, Feb 03 2016, 22:10 PM 

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I like bot the ideas presented and the idea of simply removing ECL all together.


 
      
Commie
 
PostPosted: Wed, Feb 03 2016, 22:24 PM 

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Overneath wrote:
AirPhforce wrote:
Remove all ecl's and favored class mechanics.

Antiqued system.


As for ECLs...they don't accomplish what they're supposed to, it's true. But the common argument I could potentially see is that if no ECLs exist, what mechanical reason could you have NOT to be a surface drow instead of an elf, or an aasimar/tiefling instead of...anything else? That inability to get the last two levels is a very major component of keeping the other races relevant - the other way around is why you don't see (m)any half-elves or half-orcs.

In a perfect world, we'd play races according to our characters, but...Amia has a very, very solid mechanics focus. Roleplay is just not the foremost/only consideration when the majority of people make their characters. It's not my place to say whether it's right or wrong, it's simply a set of circumstances that exists.


Same reason you don't see everyone rolling plane-touched hyper-optimized '20 in my key stat' 13/7/10, now. Social ramifications and that shit is boring. I don't think you would see much change.

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TormakSaber
 
PostPosted: Thu, Feb 04 2016, 0:39 AM 

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Quote:
Same reason you don't see everyone rolling plane-touched hyper-optimized '20 in my key stat' 13/7/10, now.


... they do though.

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Dark Immolation
 
PostPosted: Thu, Feb 04 2016, 1:20 AM 

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I still stand by my method suggested in the thread about Drow. Treat ECL as taking levels in a race. +2 ECL get +1 AB and Saves. Then just make sure every feat and class ability is attainable by a level 28 build.

If we want to get fancy, maybe have certain races also apply towards class features and rank, if they're favored. I.E. a level 28 Cleric female Drow mechanically is the same as a lv 30 cleric. Same for a level 28 male drow Wizard(counts as 30 Wizard for spells and features) and Lv 29 Feytouched Bard(level 30 bard).

ECL is weird and maybe a bit antiquated, but it was never intended for a capped, multiplayer system in the first place. It was there to govern progression of a small group of folk fighting the same enemies, not even each other. But, it's something we have to figure out for ourselves in terms of balancing our races, and what I've suggested is what I think would work as a good first step. As someone who has played both ECL and Non-ECL races, I really do think there would be a huge influx to play ECL races if there were absolutely no drawbacks or things to work around with them. Free stat boosts? Why wouldn't you choose that. We're an RP server yes, but lord knows that people would find a reason to play whatever race simply because it ends up being flat out better than had they gone another. Do people not already do that now? To a certain extent. But not as bad as it would be when choosing a race is a simple question of do you want a better build, with no obligations towards that race's class leanings and professions at all.

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Commie
 
PostPosted: Thu, Feb 04 2016, 3:50 AM 

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I still think, even with the advantages of other races, Humans out-right beat out all ecl races with the free skill points and free feat.

Just my opinion.

edit; I also think it blows how some races just can't get some epic feats/miss out on epic feats because of some of the insane stat requirements.

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Lilja_91
 
PostPosted: Thu, Feb 04 2016, 13:07 PM 

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Dark Immolation wrote:
I still stand by my method suggested in the thread about Drow. Treat ECL as taking levels in a race. +2 ECL get +1 AB and Saves. Then just make sure every feat and class ability is attainable by a level 28 build.

If we want to get fancy, maybe have certain races also apply towards class features and rank, if they're favored. I.E. a level 28 Cleric female Drow mechanically is the same as a lv 30 cleric. Same for a level 28 male drow Wizard(counts as 30 Wizard for spells and features) and Lv 29 Feytouched Bard(level 30 bard).


I think both of those examples are good of how to handle it.
ECL is antiqued and a rather silly way (from a RP perspective) of limiting characters.
"Oh yeah man, I'm a drow so I can't ever better than a human at spellcasting because I only get 28 caster levels"


 
      
RaveN
 
PostPosted: Thu, Feb 04 2016, 14:38 PM 

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I wouldn't call it antique, because it's in the D&D handbook. It was designed so that people could emulate their race, but still follow within the balance paradigm Disco was building for Amia.

And while that balance has changed dramatically, along with a little bit of the focus of the server... What I will say is that not every race is balanced to be level 30, and if we were to remove ECL, it would be quite a challenge to figure out what else needs to be adjusted to make that work. Simply removing the ECL is not a good idea, I mean look at how broken Aasimar is.

Sadly, some things like drow have suffered for years because of this, so it is a real thing, but it's not so easy to get around without creating a bigger problem.

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Lilja_91
 
PostPosted: Thu, Feb 04 2016, 15:10 PM 

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Faded Wings wrote:
I wouldn't call it antique, because it's in the D&D handbook. It was designed so that people could emulate their race, but still follow within the balance paradigm Disco was building for Amia.

And while that balance has changed dramatically, along with a little bit of the focus of the server... What I will say is that not every race is balanced to be level 30, and if we were to remove ECL, it would be quite a challenge to figure out what else needs to be adjusted to make that work. Simply removing the ECL is not a good idea, I mean look at how broken Aasimar is.

Sadly, some things like drow have suffered for years because of this, so it is a real thing, but it's not so easy to get around without creating a bigger problem.


So the question ultimately boils down to: Is anybody willing to sit down and deal with this, i.e. working with balancing or not. Is it something the developers want to use resources on?


 
      
Larsaan
 
PostPosted: Thu, Feb 04 2016, 15:16 PM 

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The thing about favoured classes (or rather, multi-class penalties) is that they don't add any sort of flavour to the character in the way that racial skills, feats and ability modifiers do. The only thing they do is slow down level progression, and once you've hit the cap they literally don't matter at all.

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Commie
 
PostPosted: Thu, Feb 04 2016, 17:30 PM 

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Faded Wings wrote:
I wouldn't call it antique, because it's in the D&D handbook. It was designed so that people could emulate their race, but still follow within the balance paradigm Disco was building for Amia.

And while that balance has changed dramatically, along with a little bit of the focus of the server... What I will say is that not every race is balanced to be level 30, and if we were to remove ECL, it would be quite a challenge to figure out what else needs to be adjusted to make that work. Simply removing the ECL is not a good idea, I mean look at how broken Aasimar is.

Sadly, some things like drow have suffered for years because of this, so it is a real thing, but it's not so easy to get around without creating a bigger problem.


I would agree if the stats and abilities were comparable across +1 or +2 races. They are not. Additionally, picking a +1 or +2 race often means you simply cannot get some epic feats, which actually prevent you from being the kind of character you want. My kobold was so feat-tight to get dragon shape, he wasn't able to splash another class for UMD or pick up a free ranger spell focus in epic or UMD from rogue, and literally every feat is epic wisdom with dragon shape at 30. Considering how 'tight' this is for him, I imagine there are many races that could just literally not get the feat at all because of the level cap. I imagine there are also other epic feats that some +1 or +2 races just can't ever get, and it sucks because you just can't do a thing because of ECL.

But I'm also crazy and think that if everyone was just set to 0 ECL everything would still be fine and the server population wouldn't implode. I also think the human bonus feat and skill point (partic when Discipline/Tumble are literally mandatory on every character no exceptions) make humans the absolute best race period and they don't even have an ECL.

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Overneath
 
PostPosted: Thu, Feb 04 2016, 18:16 PM 

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AirPhforce wrote:
Faded Wings wrote:
I wouldn't call it antique, because it's in the D&D handbook. It was designed so that people could emulate their race, but still follow within the balance paradigm Disco was building for Amia.

And while that balance has changed dramatically, along with a little bit of the focus of the server... What I will say is that not every race is balanced to be level 30, and if we were to remove ECL, it would be quite a challenge to figure out what else needs to be adjusted to make that work. Simply removing the ECL is not a good idea, I mean look at how broken Aasimar is.

Sadly, some things like drow have suffered for years because of this, so it is a real thing, but it's not so easy to get around without creating a bigger problem.


I would agree if the stats and abilities were comparable across +1 or +2 races. They are not. Additionally, picking a +1 or +2 race often means you simply cannot get some epic feats, which actually prevent you from being the kind of character you want. My kobold was so feat-tight to get dragon shape, he wasn't able to splash another class for UMD or pick up a free ranger spell focus in epic or UMD from rogue, and literally every feat is epic wisdom with dragon shape at 30. Considering how 'tight' this is for him, I imagine there are many races that could just literally not get the feat at all because of the level cap. I imagine there are also other epic feats that some +1 or +2 races just can't ever get, and it sucks because you just can't do a thing because of ECL.

But I'm also crazy and think that if everyone was just set to 0 ECL everything would still be fine and the server population wouldn't implode. I also think the human bonus feat and skill point (partic when Discipline/Tumble are literally mandatory on every character no exceptions) make humans the absolute best race period and they don't even have an ECL.


It depends on the feat. In your given example, an aasimar would have been able to get Dragon Shape earlier AND had an epic feat to spare despite the lack of their final feat at 30th, because of their ability bonus. That spare feat would also have translated to a skill dump level, as well.

I, personally, feel like you're ascribing too much importance to feats. I can only think of two builds that need a vast number of them (Weapon Masters and Dragon Shape druids/shifters). In the former case, yes, human is a superior choice, but ONLY if you're not using fighter levels to accrue bonus feats anyway. And...frankly, why wouldn't you? In the latter case, a race with a +2 Wisdom saves you two feats, more than you'd lose with a +1 or even a +2 ECL atop it.

I feel comfortable saying that, in a majority of cases, 'I'm feat starved' can be taken as code for 'I need x many Great STR/WIS/DEX feats in epic'. Racial ability bonuses make that a MUCH smaller issue, whereas humans and their pre-epic bonus feat don't help at all. Anyone can max out two skills. If those skills are Tumble and Discipline, so be it (although I take 'literally mandatory' as something of an exaggeration, personally). And if you DON'T need extra feats...what are you going to spend a pre-epic bonus feat on? Luck of Heroes? I'll take Half-Orc so I can qualify for Dev Crit earlier, if you don't mind.


Quote:
So the question ultimately boils down to: Is anybody willing to sit down and deal with this, i.e. working with balancing or not. Is it something the developers want to use resources on?


Well, yes, there are clearly a number of people willing to sit down and deal with the balancing of new features. The problem is, we don't know how many of those people are developers. This thread and 'If I could change Amia' clearly demonstrate that the playerbase has put some thought into these things, but the problem is that same playerbase has no control over changes to the server. That illusion was shattered by the changes to the Job System: regardless of whether you were for or against the change, if you were a player, you weren't asked.

I'm not saying it's the responsibility of the devs to double-check their actions with the players, but if we're looking for transparency, start utilizing us. At the very least, if you start asking players to brainstorm mechanics changes, you've eliminated several preliminary steps in the process by cherry-picking your favorites and starting from there. Operating from a few relatively-crappy ideas is more efficient than coming up with something from scratch.

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Amarice-Elaraliel
 
PostPosted: Thu, Feb 04 2016, 23:56 PM 

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The issue is unfortunately not only that someone needs to sit down and figure out how to balance all the subraces for no ECL. That is actually the smaller part of the work (not saying it isn't a lot of work still, mind). The even bigger part of the work would be that would need to rebuild hundreds of characters that would be effected by this. Granted, not all might need a rebuild, but many probably would depending on what exactly is changed.

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Dark Immolation
 
PostPosted: Fri, Feb 05 2016, 0:13 AM 

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That's why I think starting small and incremental would be both easier and better. The scripts that give bonuses to ECL races are already in place. Start with switching things around there, like the AB, Saves, feat/feature requirements, and maybe we'll stumble upon that balance before having to literally tear the system out by the roots. If it doesn't work out, we can always revert back to the previous versions and scripts and take it from there.

I really don't think simply removing ECL will be the right answer, and both of my mains are ECL races. Either we end up with ECL races that are flat out better than any other at max, or we have to water them down not to be. Neither option is enticing and you'll have tons of people wanting to rebuild in either case.

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Commie
 
PostPosted: Fri, Feb 05 2016, 0:37 AM 

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Dark Immolation wrote:
That's why I think starting small and incremental would be both easier and better. The scripts that give bonuses to ECL races are already in place. Start with switching things around there, like the AB, Saves, feat/feature requirements, and maybe we'll stumble upon that balance before having to literally tear the system out by the roots. If it doesn't work out, we can always revert back to the previous versions and scripts and take it from there.

I really don't think simply removing ECL will be the right answer, and both of my mains are ECL races. Either we end up with ECL races that are flat out better than any other at max, or we have to water them down not to be. Neither option is enticing and you'll have tons of people wanting to rebuild in either case.


It's a complicated problem, but Pathfinder eliminated ECL all together and it's really refreshing to just be able to play whatever you want. Some races are just stronger/faster/better and it doesn't really matter.

Honestly, I'd rather see the ECL get axed, and the current no-ecl races get a bump, because nobody likes getting their stuff nerfed.

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Dark Immolation
 
PostPosted: Fri, Feb 05 2016, 3:54 AM 

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AirPhforce wrote:
It's a complicated problem, but Pathfinder eliminated ECL all together and it's really refreshing to just be able to play whatever you want. Some races are just stronger/faster/better and it doesn't really matter.


It works in Pathfinder and D&D in general because you have a small group of people under constant watch of a DM and they are all usually working together. If the guy sitting across from the table from you takes out goblins a bit faster than you, it's no big deal. You're all working towards the same end anyway and the DM can constantly tailor the challenges. That little bit of difference matters more when it's applied against you in a setting with multiple adventurers going every which way.

I guess we could give non-ECL raises a bump, but what would be given that wouldn't just be pulling stuff out of our rear ends? Even so, doing that would probably make every non-ECL race have to rebuild as well, which is going to be even more time-consuming than having every ECL race rebuild.

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Xenos
 
PostPosted: Fri, Feb 05 2016, 7:34 AM 

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Just passing by and i had an idea.. what about racial feats?

Let us say for example you want your Drow, but you want level 30? Fine. Change them to be the same as Moon Elves. +2 Dex -2 Con. But you want ALL the good stuff from drow AND you want two more levels? Okay, enter the racial feats. One which gives +2 Int. Another with +2 Cha. Add the SR+Darkness onto another and there we go.

Unfortunately this does not get around the rebuild trouble. Maybe hire some seasonal labour? :D

Edit: Has anyone ever come out and stated why the Genasi dont have the ECL +1 anymore? Like.. i guess in theory being outsider is a negative vs the select few who know how to take advantage of that? I mean i guess Water Genasi are pretty much the same as dwarves. But Earth and the others? They just feel a bit over the top to me. Cats out of the bag now and there is no getting them back in sadly.

Never have understood why Aasimar get nothing but bonuses, i mean, when all the outsiders were +1 they all more or less lineup save for Aasimar, the golden child. I know the stats follow how they are for 3.5 but lets look at this line here..
"They are regarded as strange outsiders in most places, which can be very frustrating to aasimar who just wish to blend in. Many have become cautious and distant towards humans because of this, and get along better with other half breeds, such as half-elves."
Now i'm not sure if that was from the book on them, and can't be bothered to look! But that sure SOUNDS like a -2 cha mod given their general inability to fit in with normal peoples. Dwarves get -2 because they are disagreeable and stubborn. In theory elves should get -2 also because their dicks but we already get our -2 con to pay for that!

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Commie
 
PostPosted: Fri, Feb 05 2016, 8:48 AM 

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It's because Banish simply ruins them.

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Overneath
 
PostPosted: Fri, Feb 05 2016, 20:13 PM 

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AirPhforce wrote:
It's because Banish simply ruins them.


That gets brought up quite often, and I have to ask...has anyone ever actually seen a successful PC banishment? I never have, and until someone decides to specialize in abjuration I doubt I ever will. In fact I've attempted to banish several PC outsiders with mages in the past, and it has never worked. Ask Aiseth how well a supposed instant-win Will save spell option usually works out in practice.

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NinjaClarinet
 
PostPosted: Fri, Feb 05 2016, 20:15 PM 



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Valerius 'accidentally' banishes tieflings during events all the time ;). I've seen it work more often than it fails.


 
      
Maverick00053
 
PostPosted: Fri, Feb 05 2016, 20:46 PM 

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I've gone hunting through Brog Orcs with a number of outsider subraces. They would get banished randomly all the time. It was painful on my wallet.

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Overneath
 
PostPosted: Fri, Feb 05 2016, 20:54 PM 

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NinjaClarinet wrote:
Valerius 'accidentally' banishes tieflings during events all the time ;). I've seen it work more often than it fails.


Maverick00053 wrote:
I've gone hunting through Brog Orcs with a number of outsider subraces. They would get banished randomly all the time. It was painful on my wallet.


Fair enough, I suppose I'll see more of it when my Abjurer starts getting more thoroughly accosted.

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Jes
 
PostPosted: Fri, Feb 05 2016, 20:55 PM 

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The best example is when someone forgets and banishes himself. I have seen it happen at least a dozen times. xD

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Ryu
 
PostPosted: Sat, Feb 06 2016, 1:35 AM 



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TormakSaber wrote:
Quote:
Same reason you don't see everyone rolling plane-touched hyper-optimized '20 in my key stat' 13/7/10, now.


... they do though.


If someone was found abusing things for stat reasons and not for the sake of RP couldn't their character just be revoked? A new rule: This is a RP server making choices for min maxing purposes will result in a lost of your character.

I know it is idealistic, but I like to think 99.99% of the people would just RP and have fun rather than play to win on a game which the only true way to win is by logging on and have fun with friends. /Disney


 
      
Overneath
 
PostPosted: Sat, Feb 06 2016, 3:25 AM 

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Ryu wrote:
TormakSaber wrote:
Quote:
Same reason you don't see everyone rolling plane-touched hyper-optimized '20 in my key stat' 13/7/10, now.


... they do though.


If someone was found abusing things for stat reasons and not for the sake of RP couldn't their character just be revoked? A new rule: This is a RP server making choices for min maxing purposes will result in a lost of your character.

I know it is idealistic, but I like to think 99.99% of the people would just RP and have fun rather than play to win on a game which the only true way to win is by logging on and have fun with friends. /Disney


The problem is, anything that isn't explicitly an exploit and can be explained is not an abuse. How can you prove that someone is 'abusing' mechanics on an RP server when...let me count...79% of the player base uses dump stats? Call me cynical, but I don't really think we're going to get away with qualifying or quantifying abuse on a server where we have an entire subforum devoted to optimization. Again, I'm not going to say whether it's a good or a bad thing, but we are passively and actively nurturing that sort of environment.

And, really, you can't change that. Not in an ideal world. Because in that ideal world, any character traits or flaws are exemplified by mechanics and not the other way around. The problem is, it's almost impossible to conclusively prove whether or not someone is just powergaming or whether they honest-to-Torm have an amazing character concept that just happens to be a 46-STR earth genasi. And if we start using that as a basis for something as extreme as revoking characters, is that the kind of server we really want to play on anyway?

It's amazingly complicated, is what I'm trying to say.

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Commie
 
PostPosted: Sat, Feb 06 2016, 3:43 AM 

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Comparing 'dump stats' to race is extremely disingenuous.

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Larsaan
 
PostPosted: Sat, Feb 06 2016, 3:43 AM 

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I know I wouldn't keep playing if that happened. What I've always liked about Amia is that as long as you don't break character, you can more or less play the game however you want. That's not to say the server hasn't... faltered in this on more than one occation, but I still believe that openness is what makes this place worthwhile.

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PostPosted: Sat, Feb 06 2016, 4:15 AM 

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AirPhforce wrote:
Comparing 'dump stats' to race is extremely disingenuous.


Yups, I agree. Point buy inherently creates dump stats in order to get basic character keystones. This isn't something easily remedied.

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