AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic - Poll: Does your character use dump stats?

Okay, so I've been beating myself up lately over a certain character I have that has two stats that are very low. I'm attempting a rebuild just to fix my IMHO bad choices.

This got me thinking.... How many others might have done the same thing?

So, this poll is about your top two or three characters that you play currently. Not some long dead history, real, current characters.

It's just a curiosity, and I hope no one is offended, I'm not judging, just really wondering if I'm making too big a deal out of it for my PC!

By the way, if you have a 5, that's a 4, 7 is really a 6, etc. I could have used the ability modifier, but... I went with the real numbers.

Thanks for playing!

I think as long as the stat is appropriate to the PC, and you play it out, that you have no reason to feel bad!

My favorite PC of all time has really screwed up stats, because there were things I didn't know how they worked when I made her. But her 8 WIS and +4 CHA mod are very representative of who she is. So I could rebuild her to fix the mistake, but that wouldn't really be true to the character.

I'm sure anyone that has Epic Dodge or Dev Crit has at least one 8 stat. With a lvl 30 cap, and ECL adjustments, there's no other way to qualify for a lot of builds.

I'd argue can be avoided! Aleana is an Epic Dodger and she could have had at least 10s in all attributes, but I concously decided to go for high Charisma and Int (way higher then necessary for her build) and dumped a certain other stat (everyone who spends some time with Aleana will probably easily figure out which one it is).

Depends on the concept, frankly. Talyne and Luca don't have anything below ten. Valerius, unsurprisingly I expect, has a nine in wisdom. I build my characters pretty strong, but I think min-maxing stats is where I draw the line. A mental stat below 8 is just kinda ridiculous unless you diligently RP a severely handicapped character, and I don't know many people that can RP that respectfully, delicately, and in good taste. I also don't personally think anyone with a mental stat below 8 has the mental capacity to adventure, or even be anywhere but in a hospital or under another's guardianship. You might have the strength to lift a compact car, but unless you're making deliberately poor, lethal decisions every time you run a dungeon, you are metagaming those stats. I roll my eyes at 6 INT bruisers that still know how to utilize a series of potions and magical items in perfect sequence for maximum mathematical killing efficiency. That's just not plausible to me when the character would likely struggle to even read the labels on the potion bottles.

O dear, all my PCs have dumped charisma.... Except my paladin, I guess, but that's different.

...but really, Charisma is such a clusterfuck of stats and concepts all mashed into one number, you really could bullshit your way into saying anyone has any amount.

Torin def. has low charisma for some aspects of it but clearly has high charisma for others. In my defense he's an air genasi with 10 wisodm (shut up he does actually have decent wisdom I know what y'all are thinking)
Pierce probably shouldn't have low charisma period, but does because I wanted an absurdly high intelligence. On a rogue.
Korthan has 8 but RDD brings it to 10.
Reinard had 8 but he's also a Palemaster. Checks out.

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I'm sure anyone that has Epic Dodge or Dev Crit has at least one 8 stat. With a lvl 30 cap, and ECL adjustments, there's no other way to qualify for a lot of builds

This accounts for a lot though, I think.

Mith used to have two dump stats, but i ended up rebuilding, dropping Wis from 14 to 12 so i could raise one of them from 8 to 10. Mith will hold onto that 8 cha though, can't make it to easy on the other elves! <3

The day you think it's okay to skate by with 8 str or 8 dex is the day a DM wants you to make a str check to jump that 10' gorge, and when you fail, you make a climb check to cling to the other wall..

Agreed, depends entirely on the character.

I don't ever go below 12-14 intelligence, personally, because I feel I wouldn't be able to roleplay it well. When I get really immersed, it's really challenging for me to also dumb-down. Especially the more I interact with others, because I end up trying to web everyone together and involve them, and that takes a certain finesse that I know I'd end up doing incorrectly with a mentally handicapped character.

Some characters I specifically want to include stat deficiencies/weaknesses because I want to highlight that as a character flaw.

Honestly, take what stats you want just be sure to roleplay 'em.

NinjaClarinet wrote:

Depends on the concept, frankly. Talyne and Luca don't have anything below ten. Valerius, unsurprisingly I expect, has a nine in wisdom. I build my characters pretty strong, but I think min-maxing stats is where I draw the line. A mental stat below 8 is just kinda ridiculous unless you diligently RP a severely handicapped character, and I don't know many people that can RP that respectfully, delicately, and in good taste. I also don't personally think anyone with a mental stat below 8 has the mental capacity to adventure, or even be anywhere but in a hospital or under another's guardianship. You might have the strength to lift a compact car, but unless you're making deliberately poor, lethal decisions every time you run a dungeon, you are metagaming those stats. I roll my eyes at 6 INT bruisers that still know how to utilize a series of potions and magical items in perfect sequence for maximum mathematical killing efficiency. That's just not plausible to me when the character would likely struggle to even read the labels on the potion bottles.

This is an interesing opinon here. It seems that many feel that a -1 modifier is far more detrimental than a +1 modifier is beneficial. I've always considered them equally high or low relative to neutral. Thereby, an 8 cha is just a bit below average, and a 6 is significant. I'd still argue though that even a 6 cha would be able to function as an adventurer. Same for Wisdom.

My issue with MY character's stats is I haven't played them THAT low.

the PHB staes that 6 int is on the cusp of being able to function "as a human being" or of something similarly complex, iirc. don't quote me.

Oh wow... didn't know that. So it's not a linear scale then. I suppose it makes sense that from 10 to 8 is a larger difference than say... 20 to 22.

4 is average animal intelligence, I think I have read. Also people forget that the average stat is 8, not 10. Commoners are typically 8's, but adventurers get higher via training and such. So an 8 is basically your average person!

Tarnus wrote:

I'd argue can be avoided! Aleana is an Epic Dodger and she could have had at least 10s in all attributes, but I concously decided to go for high Charisma and Int (way higher then necessary for her build) and dumped a certain other stat (everyone who spends some time with Aleana will probably easily figure out which one it is).

Anatida wrote:

...I'm sure anyone that has Epic Dodge or Dev Crit has at least one 8 stat. With a lvl 30 cap, and ECL adjustments, there's no other way to qualify for a lot of builds.

Quote:

4 is average animal intelligence, I think I have read. Also people forget that the average stat is 8, not 10. Commoners are typically 8's, but adventurers get higher via training and such. So an 8 is basically your average person!

Most animals have 1 Intelligence. Smart animals have 2. 3 Intelligence qualifies you for the vaunted title of 'sapient'. See here.

And, no, no that isn't how 'average' works. By its very definition, 'average' is a calculation that is supposed to inform you about central tendency. If everyone has stats of 8, then 8 is your mode, NOT your average. In reality, all you need to figure out the common 'average' is to look out your window. See all of those people out there? None of them are adventurers. Now try and figure out what 'average' stats are by using 6 BILLION people as a focus group.

The truth is, D&D shouldn't be allowed to predicate what a statistic does using averages, but bases. Even non-adventuring commoners can easily and realistically run the gamut from 6 to 14. Remember the really dumb guy you knew in high school? 6 INT. Remember the math nerd with a 4.7 GPA from the same school? 16 INT. The out-of-shape kid at the front of the lunch line? 6 STR. The buff quarterback? 16. You can see how translating this to D&D and then trying to establish an average is a problem. If you look at an individual NPC, they're going to have eclectic stats because every person is different.

If 8 is the average, after all, we should all have 8's, because one way or another all of our characters started out as NPCs. No - 8 is the base, and you ADD a certain number of points from there. Almost everyone will have more or less than 8 in most of their ability scores, because 8 is slightly SUB-average, which explicitly denotes some form of handicap.

Let me take a moment out of my rant to talk about Charisma. If you take a look at my portrait over to the right, you'll see I've been here for 2 years or so. Actually far longer, but in my current incarnation, more or less that amount of time. During all of that, every waking minute I have spent on Amia, not one single person I have met really has a clue what the hell Charisma is. It's always a focus on one trait instead of taking a look at the stat as a whole. People say, "my character is ugly, so he has 8 CHA" or "my character isn't good with people so he has 8 Charisma" or "my character has trouble in social situations so he has 8 Charisma". Oh, by the way, I think we can all collectively count people who have given their characters a Charisma higher than 10 - when their class features DIDN'T demand it - on one hand.

The other end of the spectrum is even worse because it's the exact opposite. "I have a 22 Charisma, so I'm super beautiful, I always know what to say, and people listen to me!" Then, you look at the single-trait low-Charisma characters and wonder how they aren't universally crippled.

The ability score system in general is f*cked, if you didn't already notice.

Here's the thing. Like with all stats, it means different things to different characters under different circumstances. My PALADIN and my BARD are just as socially awkward as my 9-Charisma wizard, and very plain or sickly in appearance, respectively. The facet of Charisma everyone seems to forget is sense of self, sense of confidence. If you're playing a character with 6, or god forbid 4 Charisma, your character is functionally unable to make decisions for themselves, because they don't know who they ARE. You have to take that WITH all of the other implications, or ignore all of them entirely. Or, on the other end of the scale, admit that a HIGH score doesn't mean you have an edge in every department that score represents.

Dwarves don't get a Charisma penalty because they're hairy and ugly - they get a Charisma penalty because their society demands that they put duty and adherence before self-consideration. The clan comes before the individual. A high-Charisma dwarf is either the king or looked down upon because they're able to think in terms of how THEY view things, what THEY should be doing, what THEIR feelings are.

I could talk about this for another hour but I can virtually guarantee most of you have already stopped reading, so I'll just tl;dr and skip off to another part of the forums.

1) 8 is the character creation base, not a statistical average. All NPCs have wildly variable stats just like PCs.
2) A penalty in a stat either carries more than one connotation or a high bonus must carry much fewer.
3) Charisma is a dump stat because it's almost too vast to reliably roleplay, not because it tends to be useless. Let's be real - this is an RP server...no ability score should be useless. Mental stats least of all.

The word 'average' also refers to what is common, which is what I was stating in my post. What I have read is the average person has an 8 in whatever stat you are talking about. Obviously a farmer or construction worker would have a higher STR given they do more manual labor than the average person. 8 is the base because that's what the average NPC has in that particular stat, some would have more or less depending on who they are. Mathematical statistics have nothing to do with what I was talking about.

Naivatkal wrote:

The word 'average' also refers to what is common, which is what I was stating in my post. What I have read is the average person has an 8 in whatever stat you are talking about. Obviously a farmer or construction worker would have a higher STR given they do more manual labor than the average person. 8 is the base because that's what the average NPC has in that particular stat, some would have more or less depending on who they are. Mathematical statistics have nothing to do with what I was talking about.

You're right, of course, I apologize. That was a misunderstanding on my part. That said, I feel the need to disagree with the assumption that we should predicate the extraordinary on the average when the average isn't always average to begin with. This was my point when I was talking about the range of effective attributes in real humans/NPCs. We're talking about PC ability scores, not what the assumption is for everyone else. If 8 was supposed to be the average, it would have a +0 ability modifier. When I think of someone with an average skill level, I don't think of someone who takes an outright penalty to performing that task. It may very well be average for NPCs (though, again, I disagree in that matter), but we're not playing NPCs. We don't really have a lot of comparisons we can play around with unless those comparisons are to each other or in direct relation to what the mechanics say, and the mechanics say fairly explicitly that 8 is a handicap, not a standard.

STR 25, DEX 8, CON 6, INT 20, WIS 7, CHA 9 ... Does that already count as min-maxed?

I think I regularly forgot about the DEX penalty. Anything else is true to the character. Low WIS killed him pretty quickly in the end ...

Regards
Ts

TormakSaber wrote:

...but really, Charisma is such a clusterfuck of stats and concepts all mashed into one number, you really could bullshit your way into saying anyone has any amount.

This.

Most characters I build will have at least a ten in every stat. Occasionally I'll have an eight in WIS or CHA, and that can actually be a lot of fun to RP. It allows you to really ham things up.

mmmh, my main character, Kurchin, has two dump stats as it's called. One of them is strength, by virtue of him being a kobold with -4 STR. Though I find there isn't as much stigma on dumping the physical stats since they're more easily represented mechanically. 8 DEX means you get hit a lot, 8 STR means you hit with the power of a wet noodle in melee, and 8 CON means you drop dead easily in combat. And when STR is involved, I tend to RP him as doggedly persistent but still physically weak, true to how kobolds behave.

His 8 WIS, well, I've played him for years. When I started him, he was hopelessly naive and was very prone to doing rather dumb things. He's more hardened and wiser now, but he still has his moments. It's the kind of thing that maybe I should rebuild his WIS to be higher,... maybe.

Saylgarix, one of my more prominent alts, had STR and CHA as his dump stats. The STR, he wasn't physically strong, but made up for it in being exceptionally vicious. His CHA stat was low because he often had absolutely no social graces. He was very blunt and brutally honest, and often spoke in a tactless bordering insulting manner. Of course, his blunt honesty did appeal to some, but being rough and abrasive didn't earn him many friends. He also didn't have Kurchin's 'cute' looks. He mellowed out some in his later years, but I never rebuilt him and he's retired, so...

A current alt of mine, Selgoron, has one dump stat, CHA. Physically, he's got those elven good looks, physically fit and trim to elven perfection, cares for his hair, etc. However, to everyone who's met him and isn't an elf, it's obvious where he gets the 8 CHA from. To everyone who is an elf and has met him, (especially Lyraesel) it's obvious where the 8 CHA comes in. He's extremely awkward in social gatherings, sweats up and is awkward when someone starts flirting or tries to get intimate with him, he doesn't really operate well in social environments. He's extremely intelligent, and there are environments he operates well in. But while he's physically attractive, his behavior and social awkwardness to situations that don't involve purgings are a result of his 8 CHA.

I think there is a difference between dumping physical stats and mental stats. Physical stat dumping is readily apparent mechanically, while for some characters, the same is not true for mental stat dumping. (Rogues, WMs, barbarians, etc) The mental stats should come into play for any interpersonal interaction, while the physical stats, less so.

There are only so many stat points to go around. Depends on your concept. If you use feat selection to align game mechanics to the concept, you may not have the points leftover to get every score to 10. There are requirements to be met. Also, I think some players like to have a flaw to roleplay. Most of the characters I've ever made had at least one score below 10.

6 cha get at me brah

and i rp it like 20 cha

Elwyn has 8 charisma and 8 wisdom. She lets her mouth run off sometimes and at times is excessively vulgar. To some ends this has worked to her advantage, and has proven exceptionally helpful in keeping people she doesn't like away from her. Only to instead poke at her from out of reach of her sword. :lol:

Sullivan has 8 charisma. Anyone who knows him would agree he has the personality and social skills of a rock.

Bad stats can be just as rewarding as good stats as long as you roleplay them.

My long time main character had 6 charisma and 4 wisdom (with equip).

....

I'm not sure he could even live with that tbh.

TheCortroy wrote:

Bad stats can be just as rewarding as good stats as long as you roleplay them.

Which is the alpha and the omega of the problem.

... as long as you roleplay them.

That said, Charisma is a bitch to RP. How do you play a character with low charisma, when charisma represents a vast variety of traits?

However you want to play them. Charisma entails numerous traits, so it's probably just easier to nitpick what traits you want that fits your characters concept and roll with those. Not play a low number like it's high or vice versa, but like High dexterity doesn't mean you're automatically ambidextrous, or high strength literally meaning every single muscle in your body is absolutely ripped (You'd seriously look like a humanoid toberlone if they were. And probably dead.)

pick and chose what perks and flaws your character has from the abilities they have.

Bertnard wrote:

My long time main character had 6 charisma and 4 wisdom (with equip).

....

I'm not sure he could even live with that tbh.

You play Donald Trump? (I went there, yes)

Guardian wrote:

TheCortroy wrote:

Bad stats can be just as rewarding as good stats as long as you roleplay them.

Which is the alpha and the omega of the problem.

... as long as you roleplay them.

That said, Charisma is a bitch to RP. How do you play a character with low charisma, when charisma represents a vast variety of traits?

You pick out specific traits that would fit your character properly. Do you think your character would be riddled in scars, detaching the personal magnetism that the trait is known for? Or he could be horribly ugly if you picture him that way? Maybe he's just not a good speaker? Horrible with people? Not a leader? All of the above?

You have a vast variety of traits to work with, like you said.

edit: NINJAED DAAAAMN YOU BHALOOORIAN!

Lyraesel's wisdom score is low, but she has high Intelligence and Charisma. This usually means that when her brain fights her heart, her heart usually wins! She is also driven by emotions mostly, and racial prejudice is not foreign to her (*Cough, dragon-anything!*). First impressions mean a lot to her too. If she associates negativity with somebody(which can come from basic things such a symbolic things), they will have an incredibly difficult time with her. This swings the other way too with positivity.

Rook has 8 Wisdom: I think I play this accordingly, she's reckless. She's like a horse with blinkers on emotionally, and her fiendish blood grants her a set of urges I wanted to be difficult to resist. Also when it comes to compulsions they get to her more easily; since she's already... resisting her urges... having a low wisdom made sense. The Will Saves are low!

Grishnak has 6 Charisma: He's a half-orc. He's barbarian. I wanted to take mighty rage, this means having con and str at at least 21! As Tormak says... Charisma is a very weird stat and it's supposed to represent 'force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness' - it "correlates". But, isn't always an accurate representation. . . Also, how being pretty means you're also a 'force of personality' has never made sense to me. His charisma is low on an attractiveness level, but his ability to lead is well above 6 if I'm being honest. It's like a game limitation... I play it best I can.

Guardian wrote:

TheCortroy wrote:

Bad stats can be just as rewarding as good stats as long as you roleplay them.

Which is the alpha and the omega of the problem.

... as long as you roleplay them.

That said, Charisma is a bitch to RP. How do you play a character with low charisma, when charisma represents a vast variety of traits?

Never tried playing either high or low... I just play me most of the time. RP is pretty much like acting so personally I try and pick the character closet to me, regardless of stats. Shana actually has two dump stats, unsurprisingly CHA and then CON. ICly she can be awkward around people or at least I try to be at times. The low CON probably doesn't fit her lifestyle, however, it is easier to work round something which equates to a physical ability rather than a mental one.

Well physicals are easy. You just write down, that you are no Rambo etc.
With intelect, it is easy as well (I am Groot, Tarzan - Jane, Tarzan - Jane).
Wisdom... well mostly you try to be reckless and offer stupid or already-proven-as-bad ideas.

Charisma - my pick is to have something that makes your character less "pretty" (though scars on warrior are probably making warrior more "desired"), try to add something annoying (smell, sounds etc.) and be bit more asocial (not too much cause otherwise - what would you play, right?).

Look, I know that nobody reads my posts, but come on. Oversimplifying ability scores is part of the problem. Is 'I'm dumb', 'I'm oblivious', and 'I'm ugly' REALLY all the nuance you want to demonstrate? At this point I might be more in favor of ignoring ability scores altogether and simply stating that character flaws are not a function of statistics. Two people with 6 Wisdom are very unlikely to have the exact same negative traits, and a good portion of those negative traits might not even be a function of that particular stat.

Even the phrase 'dump stat' on its own passively encourages thinking about these things exclusively in terms of 'what's the easiest way to satisfy my mechanics?' The idea that you should take the easiest, most homogeneous road to character flaws 'because my stats say so' absolutely infuriates me, because the whole point of making and roleplaying a character is to be DIFFERENT from everyone else, not to live in a world where there is ONLY 'pretty' and 'ugly'.

The mental ability scores deserve better than that. Your characters deserve better than that.

I'd say that that a 6 CHA doesn't mean the ale swilling, never bathing, cursing, scar-faced half-orc can't be charming every once in awhile. And that 8 CHA elf might be pretty on the outside but oh so ugly on the inside.

I use Stats as the general indicators of what the character looks like and what the personality is. And it goes both ways. One of my characters has ridiculously high WIS and CHA but due to his deity he doesn't go about dispensing sage advice to everyone. He /could/ but he doesn't. His humility keeps him from shoving his handsome in folks faces and from taking over as the leader he could be.

So, I have fun with the fact that not every low stat or high stat has to be blatantly obvious. Likewise the traits aren't written in stone to be emoted all the time. My characters do things and say things that make them look like idiots with high WIS, CHA & INT. So I'm betting that there are 6 WIS folks that manage to have a kernel of sage advice to share on occasion. And that half-orc might clean up and smile sweetly as he bows to a lady with a twinkle in his eye. The lady might find that charming.

Course, he turns around and hocks a loogie immediately afterwards.... be-cause... half-orc with a 6 CHA.

PS. Overneath... I read /all/ your posts.

I have a paladin that has 6 CON and I play it off as he was a survivor of Feather Lung in his past, so he has trouble breathing and speaking loudly. It's fun to play out your dump stats.

Gerald doesn't actually have any stats below ten, but he's also an atrocious example of building that I can't wait to rebuild further as his concept further evolves. I like to build strong characters and they almost always have a stat at 8 or 6 somewhere somewhere, unless of course the build or concept demands I not. It's a mixed bag, but my main is the way he currently is. I'm happy enough with him but I'm still working on him.

All of my characters have low charisma. Jack had the lowest. Even the Scholar has low charisma.

Jack also had low dexterity, but he's got the flexibility of a steel spine.

Aven has bad DEX and worse CHA, though all her other stats are pretty good. I don't RP the former that often, but then most of the drawbacks of low DEX are mitigated by her skills and class abilities, so it really just means she's a terrible shot with a bow.

Her CHA is mainly shown through her stubborn and prickly proud nature. She can be decent (if crass) company when in her comfort zone, and routine has made merchantry fairly straightforward for her (still not keen on haggling, though), but she's not good with strangers, and doesn't deal well with being put on the spot in social situations. That said, get her in the water and she'll cheer right up. Unless you tossed her in, that usually means bombs.

Poll: Does your character use dump stats?

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