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So you added a cooldown to crafting experience. No discussion, just a tiny note in the announcements.

For fuck's sake, why?

See huge thread for this already

http://www.amiaworld.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=84796

Some people were exploiting it/it was exploitable so they changed it. Also I guess "it was never meant to replace hunting in the first place"

No. There was an exploit, yes, and then they implemented the gathering xp cooldown as a workaround to prevent it. Then they actually fixed the exploit properly but kept the cooldown anyway.

The cooldown to all job xp, crafting included, is a recent thing, and this time they don't have the excuse of an exploit. This change was out of nowhere.

So like, what, you could just buy a ton of mats from kampos and then crank out a bunch of shit from your jobs and rack up the free/easy xp?

Was that fixed? Is that fix what's being complained about here?

Materials are so limited. You'd hardly get any EXP, now even less with a cooldown, if that's the case. The job system is mostly supplemental RP fluff now.

AirPhforce wrote:

So like, what, you could just buy a ton of mats from kampos and then crank out a bunch of shit from your jobs and rack up the free/easy xp?

Was that fixed? Is that fix what's being complained about here?

Let's some rough math, shall we? A gemcutter has the most "recipes" at 27 (note that most crafting jobs have far fewer than that - brewers have 9, and some of those need the same materials). The merchants spawn with 1 or 2 of each item per reset, which means that on average a gemcutter will be able to get off about 40 crafts per reset. At rank 3 that means 3000 xp per reset.

You might feel differently about this, but I don't think 3k xp every eight hours is much of an "exploit".

EDIT: More than that, though, I am intensely aggravated that the team keeps pushing changes like this out of the blue for seemingly no good reason, with no communication and not even a token discussion beforehand. It sends a very clear message about how they value transparency and the opinions of players.

Larsaan wrote:

Let's some rough math, shall we? A gemcutter has the most "recipes" at 27 (note that most crafting jobs have far fewer than that - brewers have 9, and some of those need the same materials). The merchants spawn with 1 or 2 of each item per reset, which means that on average a gemcutter will be able to get off about 40 crafts per reset. At rank 3 that means 3000 xp per reset.

You might feel differently about this, but I don't think 3k xp every eight hours is much of an "exploit".

I do. That's most then most quests.

So? It's still significantly less than you'll get from hunting.

Also keep in mind that you can't take rank 3 in a job until level 15. You get significantly less xp before that (both due to less xp per pop and a significantly lower rate of success).

Also also keep in mind that most jobs can't craft nearly as much as that. A rank 3 brewer would only get an average of 750 xp per reset.

At this new xp rate you'd have to spend well over 200 hours to get to 30, possibly 300 hours if the RNG decides to screw you over. That's more time than I put into Skyrim.

Hey,

yeah, that was another surprise update. The announcements are missing, but work gets done, so I don't feel too bad about that.

I actually think a global cooldown for xp on all rolls, like it seems to be now, is much more consistent than having the limit only on certain jobs. I like consistency.

I once wrote in the FAQ that adventures make you an adventurer, not fishing. I still think I got that right. Some jobs are more adventurous than others, but then the usual spawns take care of XP in those cases.

So, while a convenient and welcomed source of XP is mostly gone (even for those who didn't abuse it), this is probably how the system should have been implemented from the start. Lots of resources, little xp. We might not even need the continously increased resource scarcity with this change anymore.

Thanks devs!
Ts

Stacking up on ore for a good year or few then dump them all on a refiner. He'll be 30 give or take a few hours. I know this because it was something I had planned for some of my WKs, and even had done myself.

I also personally disagree with the changes. Why make it harder for people to level via jobs? We're supposed to be rewarding role playing and interaction, not punishing and making it harder for people who chose that path.

Richard_Edmund wrote:

Why make it harder for people to level via jobs?

Job System wrote:

What can you expect of this system?
These jobs are meant to flesh out a character, not to give you much of an advantage in playing the game. You will not get super weapons, great spells, decent protective auras, for instance. You will (probably) gain gold and xp and some simple items. A few jobs give ability boosts, but those are not spectacular (the jobs are, of course, the buffs are not).
You should take a job because you think it fits your character, and perform the tasks because you feel that gives your character a place in Amia. You should not take a job if you are looking for an edge in combat, it will not give you any.

It's been said already that job system is not an alternative to the xp grind via. typical mob hunting. I'm not saying the changes are good / bad, I am not really using job system that much and that often, but the staff (Tormak?) already explained how the job system should work, so I'm pitching this in to avoid moving in cycles again. Clearly the initiative is to fix the job system to work as it should have when it was implemented.

I never found the job system to be nearly as fast as mob hunting, honestly. Especially if you know where to go and what to do. But if people were using it to grind up, I think two minutes is still a bit much. One minute would have been preferred, perhaps even 30 seconds.

I thought most people were arguing for wanting an alternative to grinding mobs endlessly?

I did a whole round of herb picking in the Salandran Temple. I then took those resources and crafted potions. I spent about an hour, all-told, on a level 26 PC. I got about 2,000 XP, total. This was before the craft job cooldown, so now it'll be more like...1,100. Is that the rate the Team wants it to be for an hour of gathering and crafting?

I don't think that's rewarding enough to waste so much time clicking things and not RP'ing!

When job system resources are required for certain RP scenarios, that will just make it harder for everyone, no?

I originally wrote something far longer, then decided to hop on and take a look myself.

So I'll make it short: Personally I just won't bother anymore. It makes zero sense for a character with even a basic understanding of economics to do most crafting jobs since you earn way more through simple adventuring then through crafting. So unless you decide to specifically rp someone having a certain crafting job (which does not work unless someone bankrolls you for a couple of months until you have earned the xp to have a relatively good success at making your craft roll. Unless you are willing to just stand around for two minutes, the maximum you'll get is a whooping 75-150 xp for the whole thing. In my testrun that would have amounted to ten minutes of doing basically nothing) there is just no point of using it outside of making an rp-item every couple of months or so. If that is how it is intended to work, well then I suppose that's how it is now. Otherwise I just see little in terms of rp opportunities or interaction arising from that, especially since a good chunk of crafting jobs are in separate rooms which does not exactly invite for rp interaction.

I should clarify that this change will make it harder for anyone who wants to make module changes, whether for faction bases or city updates or something. Tarnus voices my concern. People will stop using it. And then those situations where you need resources for your RP will suffer as a result.

Tarnus wrote:

I originally wrote something far longer, then decided to hop on and take a look myself.

So I'll make it short: Personally I just won't bother anymore. It makes zero sense for a character with even a basic understanding of economics to do most crafting jobs since you earn way more through simple adventuring then through crafting. So unless you decide to specifically rp someone having a certain crafting job (which does not work unless someone bankrolls you for a couple of months until you have earned the xp to have a relatively good success at making your craft roll. Unless you are willing to just stand around for two minutes, the maximum you'll get is a whooping 75-150 xp for the whole thing. In my testrun that would have amounted to ten minutes of doing basically nothing) there is just no point of using it outside of making an rp-item every couple of months or so. If that is how it is intended to work, well then I suppose that's how it is now. Otherwise I just see little in terms of rp opportunities or interaction arising from that, especially since a good chunk of crafting jobs are in separate rooms which does not exactly invite for rp interaction.

I agree. As a master bower ICly my characters job is little more than flavour anyway so I can only comment from this prospective, a rather thankless and unrewarding job to it can be too! (hence why i make them occasionally and give them as gifts). The thing I have always found annoying is the argument.. the job system is for flavour, not XP... so why have it give XP at all?

Because not all people here are into soloing.

Might as well kill the job system completely as I'm not going to stand infront of a work table and count to 90.

I just want to say, respectfully, to the DM team, as well as the Devs, I didn't use the job system a whole lot before, and I'll likely use it even less now. I understand the position that the job system is not meant to give that much xp, but my question is this: why not? In seriousness, what is it hurting? Jes cited a great example of her hour of work and rate of xp. An alternative xp system that supports leveling gives Amia as a whole more diversity and more roleplay opportunities. This is a great way to draw in new players and and also encourage current players to continue to play. I've heard the argument that clicking job system items for hours isn't really rp'ing and as such shouldn't be encouraged. However, I really don't think it's any different then the farming and constant circle runs we see people doing with boss hunts and different hunting areas. If people want to grind for xp, they're going to do it, whether you devalue the job system or not. At least with having the option to either use the job system, or traditional hunting we A) offer diverse options and B) encourage roleplay with the job system. All that said, it could also be argued that it's difficult to take the job system seriously on an IC level anyways. They all have the exact same conversations, and don't require any skill/quest to learn them beyond clicking. Like always, the roleplay is dependent on players, and devaluing the job system won't change that.

I think it's also an unfair argument to take away something that's been in place for YEARS and say "Oh it was never meant to do that/never supposed to do that." Are you sure? Really sure? Because numerous devs and teams before you didn't seem to think that, neither did the people who created it.

As someone who used the job system a LOT as a new player, playing a PACIFIST, this was a godsend. I had 2 options: trail along behind parties that DON'T roleplay doing dungeons over and over again, or do half that amount of dungeon runs, and walk around the server crafting, running into people, and actually handing out the stuff I made, ROLEPLAYING.

Would it be STUPID if someone got 30 levels of fighter from herbalism? Yes. But it's also stupid to get 30 levels of mage in a week, and THEN start roleplaying like you know everything. Those are the types of people/players we all already scrutinize.

Ok ok ok ok I have an idea. This is a little psychological. What is pissing people off is the cool down. NOT SEEING XP IN THEIR WINDOW WHEN THEY USED TO. Why didn't you just lower the xp rewards by 25% or 50%? No cooldown, just less xp? It'd equal out to the same amount in the same time frame as before. That way players still get that soothing yellow text.

Last edited by RaveN on Thu, Jan 28 2016, 16:12 PM, edited 2 times in total.

People decided after getting 30k xp/hour was not enough, they abused 2 other job systems the same way. Talking about watching a player sit in front of a smelting iron while 5 players load it with things they bought over resets from a job vendor and smelt 16 levels in 5 minutes.

All of the job system stuff is incomprehensibly old and extremely exploitable, and as such, we are adjusting it so this type of thing is not allowed to continue to happen.

There is no need to create another topic, as the last one still exists.

And since people didn't bother reading that one, I'll just direct any questions to the ones Tormak already answered over there.

Just because an ATM has spat out extra cash for years, doesn't mean someone shouldn't fix it, when they find out that it's doing that.

I find it very hard to believe that's actually something that happened, considering how many resets you'd have to go through to get that many materials from merchants. If it did, they'd have to have been stockpiling for months.

Last edited by RaveN on Thu, Jan 28 2016, 15:25 PM, edited 1 time in total.

You'd be surprised. The vendors resupply every time the server crashes. Vendors on both A and B share different stock. Some of the gathering for smelting was largely abused at the same time of herbalism, and we didn't catch the people getting hundreds of ore until after.

Yes, but how long had they been stockpiling?

Richard_Edmund wrote:

Stacking up on ore for a good year or few then dump them all on a refiner. He'll be 30 give or take a few hours. I know this because it was something I had planned for some of my WKs, and even had done myself.

I also personally disagree with the changes. Why make it harder for people to level via jobs? We're supposed to be rewarding role playing and interaction, not punishing and making it harder for people who chose that path.

Are... you seriously arguing against this change by complaining you can't powerlevel someone with a massive amount of refining? I hope you know better and are being facetious. If not, that's precisely the sort of exploiting that ruins things like the job system -_-

Naivatkal wrote:

Richard_Edmund wrote:

Stacking up on ore for a good year or few then dump them all on a refiner. He'll be 30 give or take a few hours. I know this because it was something I had planned for some of my WKs, and even had done myself.

I also personally disagree with the changes. Why make it harder for people to level via jobs? We're supposed to be rewarding role playing and interaction, not punishing and making it harder for people who chose that path.

Are... you seriously arguing against this change by complaining you can't powerlevel someone with a massive amount of refining? I hope you know better and are being facetious. If not, that's precisely the sort of exploiting that ruins things like the job system -_-

+1

Well great job, then. You fixed an exploit that takes a year to do, and all it took was rendering the job system almost entirely useless. Hooray.

Last edited by walnutboy on Thu, Jan 28 2016, 15:42 PM, edited 1 time in total.

Naivatkal wrote:

Richard_Edmund wrote:

Stacking up on ore for a good year or few then dump them all on a refiner. He'll be 30 give or take a few hours. I know this because it was something I had planned for some of my WKs, and even had done myself.

I also personally disagree with the changes. Why make it harder for people to level via jobs? We're supposed to be rewarding role playing and interaction, not punishing and making it harder for people who chose that path.

Are... you seriously arguing against this change by complaining you can't powerlevel someone with a massive amount of refining? I hope you know better and are being facetious. If not, that's precisely the sort of exploiting that ruins things like the job system -_-

I doubt it was serious, come on... would you collect stuff for a year on one character to then be able to level it to 30 in an hour? Honestly??

Edit: My toon struggles to move when I buy two planks and I end up wearing str gear.. at level twenty odd! I doubt ore is lite, I doubt he was being serious and merely pointing out the flaw in the argument!

Faded Wings wrote:

Naivatkal wrote:

Richard_Edmund wrote:

Stacking up on ore for a good year or few then dump them all on a refiner. He'll be 30 give or take a few hours. I know this because it was something I had planned for some of my WKs, and even had done myself.

I also personally disagree with the changes. Why make it harder for people to level via jobs? We're supposed to be rewarding role playing and interaction, not punishing and making it harder for people who chose that path.

Are... you seriously arguing against this change by complaining you can't powerlevel someone with a massive amount of refining? I hope you know better and are being facetious. If not, that's precisely the sort of exploiting that ruins things like the job system -_-

+1

That was more along the lines of me pointing out a better example of an actual exploit. Picking herbs for hours isn't. Refining a hundred ores per minute for levels worth of XP is.

Hey just making sure, you are a derp after all

walnutboy wrote:

Edit: My toon struggles to move when I buy two planks and I end up wearing str gear.. at level twenty odd! I doubt ore is lite, I doubt he was being serious and merely pointing out the flaw in the argument!

That's what Metal Trader is for! And being STR based helps, lol

Faded Wings wrote:

People decided after getting 30k xp/hour was not enough, they abused 2 other job systems the same way. Talking about watching a player sit in front of a smelting iron while 5 players load it with things they bought over resets from a job vendor and smelt 16 levels in 5 minutes.

I don't really have much of an opinion, because I always thought the job system was slower and more tedious than anything else, but.. I can't seem to shake the feeling that maybe this change seems to be punishing the many for the actions of a select few who could just use a talking to.

Yes, you've eliminated the potential for an exploit. But in doing so you've also eliminated a great deal of interest in people who were using it correctly. You could fix the issue by making an administrative ruling instead of a systemic change. It's not perfect-- but this doesn't seem to be, either.

The rules "not to exploit" already exist and yet we keep seeing it happen.

People keep speeding, so let's remove roads.

Last edited by Commie on Thu, Jan 28 2016, 16:51 PM, edited 1 time in total.

Silkelock wrote:

The rules "not to exploit" already exist and yet we keep seeing it happen.

Listen, let me be real with you here. My character is a carpenter wizard. That means if I make 500 spider chairs, I expect to come out of the wood-shop as a level 30 archmage, because it fits the character.

AirPhforce wrote:

Silkelock wrote:

The rules "not to exploit" already exist and yet we keep seeing it happen.

Listen, let me be real with you here. My character is a carpenter wizard. That means if I make 500 spider chairs, I expect to come out of the wood-shop as a level 30 archmage, because it fits the character.

I found it funny you consider a lvl 30 an Archmage. But only because of that.

Learning the second circle of spells from running errands in Cordor is totes logical, though.

Larsaan wrote:

Learning the second circle of spells from running errands in Cordor is totes logical, though.

Yeah because the goal there is to get your HP and spells-per-rest to the point where you can be reasonably expected to be able to kill goblins/rats without being one hit away from death at any time.

The job system is clearly meant for flavor, a side activity where you milk a cow while chatting people up in Bendir Dale, or make spider chairs and sell a few as a profit. It was made to give characters more dimension outside of class/race/build. It was not meant to be any kind of replacement for grinding or hunting, and the reason it gives XP at all was to incentivise learning a profession.

If you were doing it for any reason other then to have a bit of fun with your character, or make some fun items to sell, then you are the reason this exploit got fixed.

It seems kind of counter-intuitive to claim that XP from the job system shouldn't make you level 30 quickly. With the way DCs have been changed, you can RP for a while and stockpile DCs to do the very same thing without ever going out to kill things or use the Job System. Older players who have tons of DCs from over the years can make a new character and DC-level them to 30 without doing the grind. Hell, there's one instance where someone just straight-up requested a fully-leveled PC with the DCs being taken so they didn't have to click the buttons in-game, to save time.

If someone with a stockpile of DCs can (and wants to use them to) level their brand new PC to 30 in about 30 minutes, why would you use "Picking flowers can't make you a level 30 mage" as a reason for doing away with the Job System variant of gaining a bunch of XP? Plenty of people really incorporate their jobs into their roleplay. Or is RP done on other characters so you can super-level your new character more valuable than what your character is doing when they're using the Job System and creating things to interact with other characters?

I just personally don't agree with making this change so drastic. I understand people were exploiting and that the dynamic areas made that even worse. But the answer should have been to cut down on areas having OMG SO MANY RESOURCES all right next to each other (looking at you, South Cordor), rather than butchering the Job System as a whole. It takes real time and investment to use the Job System, and it can really have a big impact on RP. Now it'll just be...people having ranks in things but never really using it. Or worse... They spend even more time grinding the Job System in remote locations because they can't (for one reason or another) mindlessly grind monsters. It all just leads to less interaction and less world-building by virtue of scarcer resources.

AirPhforce wrote:

Larsaan wrote:

Learning the second circle of spells from running errands in Cordor is totes logical, though.

Yeah because the goal there is to get your HP and spells-per-rest to the point where you can be reasonably expected to be able to kill goblins/rats without being one hit away from death at any time.

The job system is clearly meant for flavor, a side activity where you milk a cow while chatting people up in Bendir Dale, or make spider chairs and sell a few as a profit. It was made to give characters more dimension outside of class/race/build. It was not meant to be any kind of replacement for grinding or hunting, and the reason it gives XP at all was to incentivise learning a profession.

If you were doing it for any reason other then to have a bit of fun with your character, or make some fun items to sell, then you are the reason this exploit got fixed.

Then the items you get from some jobs should be more rewarding. Some jobs need a little balancing on the items you get for having full ranks in the job your technically a master craftsman in!

AirPhforce wrote:

Yeah because the goal there is to get your HP and spells-per-rest to the point where you can be reasonably expected to be able to kill goblins/rats without being one hit away from death at any time.

The job system is clearly meant for flavor, a side activity where you milk a cow while chatting people up in Bendir Dale, or make spider chairs and sell a few as a profit. It was made to give characters more dimension outside of class/race/build. It was not meant to be any kind of replacement for grinding or hunting, and the reason it gives XP at all was to incentivise learning a profession.

No, sorry, the distinction there is entirely arbitrary. Quests are just as much for flavour as the job system is. If people being level 3 is that important then we'd just start there instead of level 2. There is absolutely no logical IC reason for the courier quest to give many times the amount of xp of the courier job, especially when that job keeps sending you into insane areas like the beholder lair. It's completely arbitrary that fetching a flower for Mishnaeglen gives much more xp than assassination (Hired Killer), crafting bombs (Alchemist) or hunting game with traps (Trapper).

In any case, if job xp was supposed to be an incentive then that incentive is gone now. Job xp is entirely worthless, you'll get more from hunting 1xp/kill creatures.

AirPhforce wrote:

If you were doing it for any reason other then to have a bit of fun with your character, or make some fun items to sell, then you are the reason this exploit got fixed.

Get off your high fucking horse. Getting 750 xp a reset on the side of hunting is not an exploit.

Last edited by Guardian on Thu, Jan 28 2016, 18:40 PM, edited 1 time in total.

On the other hand, though, I did pay one hundered grand for an excellent quality throne for my Eddie. Some jobs do pay back, even though it's not XP-wise anymore. All my characters, all two of them ( :mrgreen:

) do pay a shitload of gold for Job System creations, purely for the funsies. I like players who instead of offering epic stuff and mythals on market go and offer furniture or job specialities.

However, arguing here, against the change with DCs (Jes, tsk) and quests (the rest) is a total bitchslap towards the staff. Quite an ungrateful move. Makes me sad. Don't forget it was the community (or the most of it, I personally dislike the way DCs works now. Quests are okay(ish)) who cried for a change. And now, when the change is done you are using it as an argument in a matter of fixing an obvious possibility of an exploit. So backstabbing.

Don't hate on the fix. Hate on those who caused this fix had to happen.

EDIT : Eventually - keep the job system as it was, and the moment someone is caught exploiting it strip them back to level 1 on first, ban their naughty asses on second offense.

I've probably used the job system once since it was implemented, so I don't really know what any of you are talking about. That being said.. At this point in the server's history, I think it's important to focus on making things more hassle-free for the player base. This seems like an unhealthy dose of hassle that really won't do much good for the server as a whole.

You still get XP from the job system.

Can we merge this thread with the other one?

Faded Wings wrote:

You still get XP from the job system.

Oh yes, enough to level to 30 in over 200 hours. Come on now...

Faded Wings wrote:

Can we merge this thread with the other one?

I don't see why. This is a different thread for a different change.

And I'd still like to hear how long those people were gathering materials. I don't think it's unreasonable to want a proper explanation for why breaking the system for everyone was justified.

If I understand the last problem correct they could only band aid the problem hence the change to the exp for crafting. so correct me if I'm wrong

Dynamic maps made it so leaving the map made all nodes respawn, added with select maps with very close nodes made farming exp so easy hence the cool down on node collect. but now I can only assume because of the massive influx of the still very quickly and now unlimited spawned items exp was being gained from the crafting instead of collecting + crafting ?

No, they actually fixed the problem of resource nodes resetting. That exploit is gone.

And yet they kept the cooldown anyway.

The players, and some of our previous area developers, as Tormak, I, and others explained to you in the other thread, irresponsibly splattered XP levers everywhere on the ground and grossly misused a system that was not intended to be used that way. Sorry that you liked it better that way, but I would like an ATM that spits out free cash too. But if that happened too much, that cash would be worthless.

This discussion is literally going in the exact same direction as the other one, so that's why in my view, the threads should merge. I don't care if you choose to keep the topic going, you're free to, albeit if you want people to listen, you might want to consider less slippery slope and more of a constructive pragmatism to your approach.

Faded Wings wrote:

The players, and some of our previous area developers, as Tormak, I, and others explained to you in the other thread, irresponsibly splattered XP levers everywhere on the ground and grossly misused a system that was not intended to be used that way. Sorry that you liked it better that way, but I would like an ATM that spits out free cash too. But if that happened too much, that cash would be worthless.

This discussion is literally going in the exact same direction as the other one, so that's why in my view, the threads should merge. I don't care if you choose to keep the topic going, you're free to, albeit if you want people to listen, you might want to consider less slippery slope and more of a constructive pragmatism to your approach.

Maybe you should write some responses with actual substance instead of just using hyperbolic comparisons and saying "it just shouldn't be that way because we say so"? I'm the one doing math here.

For the third time, how long did those supposed exploiters spend gathering materials?

Yet more job system changes

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