There was a discussion about end-game mobs being basically immune to all spells / abilities because of tremendously high rolls.
I want to point out that this was brought up as a bad thing.
Yeah, it is a bad thing. Fully focused necromancer have no chance with necro spells like Banshee or FoD with end-game mobs / bosses. Fully focused evoker priest have no chance with implosion. And yet - TerBarb will scare away any creature instantly because no matter how high your saves are, you cannot beat the skill rolls. That is what is wrong.
No, what's wrong is that those builds are so ineffective at all. I'd say the solution is to buff mages a bit, but the problem with that is that mages are already really powerful compared to most other classes, and even compared to barbarians except in this one specific area. If mages gave up all the spells they don't specialize in, I'd be perfectly happy with giving them much higher DCs, maybe even on par with Terrifying Rage. Let's not pretend that mages are doing badly when it comes to monster hunting though, Doro wouldn't be soloing the Abyss regularly if that was the case.
Guardian wrote:
You both still don't get it. So I will repeat myself :
Guardian wrote:
This is actually one of the very, very few exceptions where PvE is playing bigger role than the hated PvP.
This is not about mind blank pots. Not about PvP in the first place or if barbs are or are not OP. This is about skill rolls vs. save rolls. Skill rolls vs. Save rolls is wrong setup and has to be fixed.
The mage example I gave was just to illustrate my point.
I get it perfectly well, thank you very much, I just think you're wrong. And it very clearly was about PvP in the first place, it's what everyone has been discussing up until now, you're the first to even bring up PvE. If it was about PvE, though, I'd say that Amia has much bigger balance issues than one cheesy trick among many.
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Last edited by Guardian on Tue, Dec 22 2015, 20:06 PM, edited 1 time in total.
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Being passive-aggressive to each other needs to stop, let's try to keep this discussion civil please. Otherwise this whole thread becomes almost impossible to dig through, and no improvement can be made from it on the part of our Developers.
Let it go.
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if I may make a bold suggestion here, about a change:
1:change rage DC to 10+1/2 character level+con modifier (I think this is what Tormak suggested?) 2:make rage a free action 3:fear immunity while in rage ------------------------------- 1: this for the sake of PvE, as it was suggested is the bigger issues here. I still think PvP is an issue, as that was mentioned too. Lowering the DC is undoubtedly a nerf.
2: to make up for the lost DC, while still not making things out of control. seems to make IC sense too, to me.
3: the most bold idea, more for the sake of RP. A barb in a frenzy isn't going to be scared of much, especially another barb hootin' and hollerin'. If anything that'll make them more mad. The other main sources of fear are necro focused mages and dragons/dragon knight. So from a balance point of view, not so bad? I know this is a long shot, still.
_________________ so he would always have a friend
just do sinfar's rage: gives more hp paralysis instead of fear (adds counteplay and removes the chase) 1d4 round duration of disable no cooldown on reuse
in addition i would do 2d2 rounds and then not really bother with the dc it's the wrong thing to attack. yes its absurd, but its the time rage lasts that kills ya.
Joined: 02 Jun 2015 Location: Georgia, United States.
treasured memories wrote:
if I may make a bold suggestion here, about a change:
1:change rage DC to 10+1/2 character level+con modifier (I think this is what Tormak suggested?) 2:make rage a free action 3:fear immunity while in rage ------------------------------- 1: this for the sake of PvE, as it was suggested is the bigger issues here. I still think PvP is an issue, as that was mentioned too. Lowering the DC is undoubtedly a nerf.
2: to make up for the lost DC, while still not making things out of control. seems to make IC sense too, to me.
3: the most bold idea, more for the sake of RP. A barb in a frenzy isn't going to be scared of much, especially another barb hootin' and hollerin'. If anything that'll make them more mad. The other main sources of fear are necro focused mages and dragons/dragon knight. So from a balance point of view, not so bad? I know this is a long shot, still.
Nothing should be placed as "free-action", not Divine Shield or Might, deffinately not a Rage.
If you honestly think that Barbarians are one trick ponies with their one trick being Terrifying Rage, I think you should go reevaluate your view of the class by playing around with the different options it has. The fact people actually think that should be enough to take a closer look at Terrifying Rage. No build should be built around one feat that isn't exactly that hard to get because of how ungodly strong it can become. Epic Dodge requires more. At least Devastating Critical you need to take six feats, including Devastating Critical, and have a base of 25 strength to boot - and at least it's a hit or miss, literally. Like Tormak has said before in this thread you need a hit and a critical hit.
Terrifying Rage, all a barbarian has to do is go into a rage at the right moment, time it, and have you or a monster somewhere near them. If in PvP and their reaction time is faster than yours, you don't stand a chance with how Terrifying Rage is set up currently. I've heard and seen it happen more than once, all because not everyone knows how to buff, or is so good at PvP that they're not worried about Terrifying Rage, or has natural/item given fear immunity. PvP happens, but not everyone is good at it or likes it. In PvM, monsters can't resist it either unless every single monster on the server has immunity to mind effects or extremely high Will saves - which, if that was done, would unbalance the server's spawns even further. It would be counter productive.
Devastating Critical was "nerfed" in the past because when it hit, every time it would hit after it would add on additional damage and daze/blind/etc. People would drop like flies and Devastating Critical used to be the Terrifying Rage of that time. It was too strong, even though it had counters such as having high fortitude, mind blank for part of the feat, being immune to critical hits, or being far away with a ranged weapon (and hoping the other person, if in PvP, wasn't an Arcane Archer who had Devastating Critical with a bow too).
Having counters is not a good excuse to not balance a feat that is too strong.
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Last edited by Moogle on Tue, Dec 22 2015, 21:13 PM, edited 1 time in total.
if I may make a bold suggestion here, about a change:
1:change rage DC to 10+1/2 character level+con modifier (I think this is what Tormak suggested?) 2:make rage a free action 3:fear immunity while in rage ------------------------------- 1: this for the sake of PvE, as it was suggested is the bigger issues here. I still think PvP is an issue, as that was mentioned too. Lowering the DC is undoubtedly a nerf.
2: to make up for the lost DC, while still not making things out of control. seems to make IC sense too, to me.
3: the most bold idea, more for the sake of RP. A barb in a frenzy isn't going to be scared of much, especially another barb hootin' and hollerin'. If anything that'll make them more mad. The other main sources of fear are necro focused mages and dragons/dragon knight. So from a balance point of view, not so bad? I know this is a long shot, still.
Nothing should be placed as "free-action", not Divine Shield or Might, deffinately not a Rage.
Detailed reasoning? I really don't know. Saying "nothing should be" is a very black and white. What do you suggest to go with the DC decrease of TR, if anything? Barbarian is already suboptimal to many melee builds, and to nerf it as suggested without any other compensation is a poor call- But that's just one user's opinion.
_________________ so he would always have a friend
Having counters is not a good excuse to not balance a feat that is too strong.
I think it is worth mentioning still, with the counter be so incredibly easy. Because some people don't know how to counter it is no excuse, either. If you're playing a game, you should learn the mechanics. If you don't like PVP, there's a rule for that, always allowed an out (for most things). Additionally, as dev crit was mentioned, fighter is usually the base class people go for that, no? Fighter gets tons of bonus feats and the option to get EWS (freelo +6 damage per hit, which is almost comparable to the amia specific barbarian buffs in the first place).
I guess my point is, and I think I mentioned it before- are barbarians really an issue? PvE, sure. I get it. They fear lots of stuff, or used to be able to. I'd like to add, any caster can virtually do the same via Haven or GS. Monks have their speed. Rogues can hide from lots of stuff. Getting off topic... The point! Barbarians, while TR DC undoubtedly has the potential to get very high, are not an amazing class otherwise.
_________________ so he would always have a friend
Terrifying rage is not broken, drink a mind blank potion. There is no excuse for you to not do that if you suspect hostilities from a barbarian.
There are plenty of instant win buttons that have "ridiculous" DC's. How about Aiseth's enchantment spell that's will vs death? That's stupid. The way it's described in lore should've been a fortitude save. Or, you know, let's not make an enchantment spell that kills people.
How about the fact that AA's have insane AB, and can use called shot while running? OP! Needs nerf!
How about drinking a true strike potion and knocking someone down? If they don't have a counter it's instant-win! Nerf it!
It doesn't need a nerf, you all just need to pay more attention and drink a mind blank potion. If it becomes skill vs skill, then at least remove the mind immunity, because otherwise there's not even a point to the feat anymore (and there's only a limited point to it /now/ because most people automatically drink mind blank if they're faced with a barbarian.)
If it becomes skill vs skill without mind immunity, then we'd see intimidate builds with intimidate in the ~100 range, and nobody would be able to resist it. Even worse than it is now. How about if it's still allowed to have mind immunity? Great, then you're saying we need to dump our items and feats into intimidate to even have a decent shot at working, when people DON'T HAVE AN INFINITE ONE-BUTTON IMMUNITY TO IT. That would make it the worst possible feat for a Barbarian to take.
It is fine the way it is. (No, I didn't read the whole thread, I am busy with my life right now. It still doesn't need a nerf though.)
Also it's been mentioned above that Dev Crit used to be the "Terrifying Rage of it's time" before it was nerfed.
Bullshit, almost nobody uses TR because nobody likes barbarians. When Frugdar was in his prime he was the only user of it around. In contrast, Fighter/Rogue/WM with dev crit is so painfully common, with scimitar and shield, you should be advocating for a nerf of that build lol. Literally no melee build can compete with either Fighter/Rogue/WM or Bard/PM/Barbarian. Those two are invincible. Yet, apparently TR needs a nerf?
I feel like someone, or multiple people in this thread, simply suck at pvp and are trying to nerf Barbarians.
15 levels of barbarian are required for TR. What competitive build uses 15 levels of barbarian besides the Bard/PM/Barbarian? Frugdar is a fighter/barbarian/WM and it's awful. The entire build relies on damage output, decent AB and terrifying rage, and it's not very good. The cookie cutter builds, Fighter/Rogue/WM for example, dodge him most of the time, hit him with ease, and drink mind blank to be immune to TR.
It is not OP, and you cannot show that it is OP. Sucking at PvP does not make an ability OP. Dev Crit is still more useful than TR because there's no flat immunity to it, unlike TR.
Joined: 15 Dec 2009 Location: The Sky Above The Rain.
MisterLich wrote:
I feel like someone, or multiple people in this thread, simply suck at pvp and are trying to nerf Barbarians.
Priceless.
As one of the few who remember Frudgar in his, as you said, prime, I remember exactly how you used to play him. And I did not want to mention it, but you've asked for it - it was you who switched people on dislike, with no indication prior whatsoever, and chased them down while they were terrified, because that was the only way you could actually win the fight. Except for this scenario, every time I saw Frudgar in "fair" fight he got his ass served to him. And quite a few people refused later to even play with you or be even near you, and two of them left Tarkuul's guard once Frugdar was accepted into ranks.
So don't play a tough nail here, cus you're all rusty, m'love.
_________________ Mercadier - *sleeps six feet under the warm sands of Khem* Alex - Life is adventure or nothing! Eddie - Sex, drugs and rock'n... more sex. ========= Obsidian (inactive)
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That's the input from the former Tarkuul player / DM who was active back these days?
Fair enough, then. Good riddance.
_________________ Mercadier - *sleeps six feet under the warm sands of Khem* Alex - Life is adventure or nothing! Eddie - Sex, drugs and rock'n... more sex. ========= Obsidian (inactive)
I never suggested Frugdar was a good pvp build - I've always, always said he's a bad build overall. He can't even boss hunt. I'm just now talking with someone in Skype about how his build is shit without TR, because of how Amia deals with AC and Discipline items and how NwN deals with AB buffs.
That does not mean that the ability is overpowered.
Joined: 02 Jun 2015 Location: Georgia, United States.
treasured memories wrote:
LibrisMortis_666 wrote:
treasured memories wrote:
if I may make a bold suggestion here, about a change:
1:change rage DC to 10+1/2 character level+con modifier (I think this is what Tormak suggested?) 2:make rage a free action 3:fear immunity while in rage ------------------------------- 1: this for the sake of PvE, as it was suggested is the bigger issues here. I still think PvP is an issue, as that was mentioned too. Lowering the DC is undoubtedly a nerf.
2: to make up for the lost DC, while still not making things out of control. seems to make IC sense too, to me.
3: the most bold idea, more for the sake of RP. A barb in a frenzy isn't going to be scared of much, especially another barb hootin' and hollerin'. If anything that'll make them more mad. The other main sources of fear are necro focused mages and dragons/dragon knight. So from a balance point of view, not so bad? I know this is a long shot, still.
Nothing should be placed as "free-action", not Divine Shield or Might, deffinately not a Rage.
Detailed reasoning? I really don't know. Saying "nothing should be" is a very black and white. What do you suggest to go with the DC decrease of TR, if anything? Barbarian is already suboptimal to many melee builds, and to nerf it as suggested without any other compensation is a poor call- But that's just one user's opinion.
A detailed reasoning for why Rage, nor any other "feat" from a class should be a free-action? Free-action isn't required, as far as I know (and I'm checking all sourcebooks I have) a Paladin isn't required to have any of his neat tricks as Free-Action. There are a lot of other classes that have a real struggle in PvP / PvM on Amia and don't seem to mind their difficulties.
I think it's awesome you guys have so many ideas to change things on Amia and the input really is good. I honestly don't know how to make the power of Terrifying Rage more fair. However, I believe in some way if Terrifying Rage is a issue there are a lot more features on Amia that would irritate players, and I don't think we can literally revamp every feature that seems unfair.
A detailed reasoning for why Rage, nor any other "feat" from a class should be a free-action? Free-action isn't required, as far as I know (and I'm checking all sourcebooks I have) a Paladin isn't required to have any of his neat tricks as Free-Action. There are a lot of other classes that have a real struggle in PvP / PvM on Amia and don't seem to mind their difficulties.
I think it's awesome you guys have so many ideas to change things on Amia and the input really is good. I honestly don't know how to make the power of Terrifying Rage more fair. However, I believe in some way if Terrifying Rage is a issue there are a lot more features on Amia that would irritate players, and I don't think we can literally revamp every feature that seems unfair.
A fair thought. That was sort of my line of thinking from the start- there's lots of balance things that can be complained against, and it's not reasonable to change it all. But I've expressed all I have to say about server balance on the topic so I'll leave it here.
_________________ so he would always have a friend
That does not mean that the ability is overpowered.
If... something is used as an auto-win then yes it is.
People are also forgetting that the drinking of a potion during even a verbal conflict is an acceptable reason to start PvP. So if you are in an argument with a barbarian that is trying to provoke a fight and you drink a MB, boom they can rage and knock you on your ass. You are flat footed, likely without your weapon and shield out. That's going to hurt. So it's not so cut and dry as 'just drink a MB'. That can get you in just as much trouble.
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It is easy to avoid if you know PvP is going to happen, but I don't think that happens often. In close quarters, it's a definite insta-win button unless your character just walks around spamming Mindblank potions all day. The save is too high to be made by anything but a natural 20, so effectively anyone that doesn't have Fear Immunity is going to be instakilled before they can react.
Fear Immunity really shouldn't be allowed on items, but if we have roaming instawin buttons like this I can see why people would want it. Wail spells have easy counters, but that doesn't mean those should be Spellcraft vs Fort either.
That does not mean that the ability is overpowered.
If... something is used as an auto-win then yes it is.
People are also forgetting that the drinking of a potion during even a verbal conflict is an acceptable reason to start PvP. So if you are in an argument with a barbarian that is trying to provoke a fight and you drink a MB, boom they can rage and knock you on your ass. You are flat footed, likely without your weapon and shield out. That's going to hurt. So it's not so cut and dry as 'just drink a MB'. That can get you in just as much trouble.
that's getting into some mighty fine detail, "what if such and such did this or that?" I don't think- well... I mean a debate like this can go in circles. And yes, it can be a instant win, if you use it in such a way and are sneaky about it. But it'll only work once, if that. And again! Is anyone arguing mages aren't the same? only more options. There's the infamous timestop to dragonknight for fear, then bigby's, or whatever (as you have that small window to cast bigbys after your initial spell) that's comparable to instant win rage.
_________________ so he would always have a friend
That's a fair question. What about timestop and either dragonknight with a dragon's fear + the prismatic breath (looking at you, Krin, don't pretend you're against PvP win-buttons lol ) or timestop and hellball + GR?
TR is -not- an instant win button. Quit saying it is. You can't max out your intimidate with gear and feats lol... Barbarian is a feat starved class! You think you're going to waste feats on intimidate? Or put +50 intimidate on gear? You'll never be any good with that.
Suggesting that it's viable, much less commonly done or done at all, to have a melee character focus his gear on a skill that has no use except for one hit-or-miss feat and no other mechanical useage, that has no +30 gloves for it, is ludicrous. Melee characters try to maximize STR, AC, Discipline, and saves. There's no room for +50 intimidate even if you wanted to do it.
And if you did, that intimidate is useless with most characters.
- mind blank - paladins - monks - shifters or shapechanged people - fear immune gear - remove fear
And in PvE, I can tell you first hand that Frugdar, for what it's worth, is still garbage at PvE even with terrifying rage. You can't say "it makes PvE too easy" because it plain doesn't. He can't do any boss hunting or go in end-game areas without lots of help from others. Your logic or reasoning doesn't matter when reality simply shows that it isn't overpowered in one of the only cases we have of people having the feat.
TR is -not- an instant win button. Quit saying it is. You can't max out your intimidate with gear and feats lol... Barbarian is a feat starved class! You think you're going to waste feats on intimidate? Or put +50 intimidate on gear? You'll never be any good with that.
Most barb builds take ESF: Intimidate for that tasty +10 DC. A single feat gives +10 DC on a fear aura, that's nuts. You don't even need to max your Intimidate at that point, a 40+ DC vs Will is enough to screw everyone out there that is not a WIS focused Cleric/Druid or a DC-heavy build (not including Paladins and shifter shifters). At worst, you walk around with the +8 Intimidate helm and maybe the +10 cloak and boom, you can beat every Will save out there.
_________________ Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play: Salema Nefahri::A penny for your thots Zrae'a'stra'fryn::That which nightmares are made of Khasir::From the East a storm is coming
Is anyone arguing mages aren't the same? only more options. There's the infamous timestop to dragonknight for fear, then bigby's, or whatever (as you have that small window to cast bigbys after your initial spell) that's comparable to instant win rage.
MisterLich wrote:
That's a fair question. What about timestop and either dragonknight with a dragon's fear + the prismatic breath (looking at you, Krin, don't pretend you're against PvP win-buttons lol ) or timestop and hellball + GR?
I probably didn't invent that spell-combo, but I'm going to shamelessly pretend I did for the purposes of this mini-debate we're having.
Here's the difference: EDK doesn't have a Skill vs Save DC calculation for Fear. It's easy, especially with the amount of epic gear floating around the server, to get your saves up high enough that the EDK Fear Aura only hits you on a low roll or a 1. Prismatic Breath rarely kills anything with the randomly generated death effect unless that something rolls a 1. The save isn't astronomical. In fact, not so long ago, my character was having a duel with a character who had saves across the board so high that he was effectively immune to all spells outside of a roll of 1-3 on the DC. The only spell DCs you need to worry about on Amia are the Death spell DCs, and really only because people will spam them because they usually only work on a 1.
I'm going to claim the invention of Timestop + Hellball + Greater Ruin timed so that they hit at the same time too. You know the cure to that one? A heal potion. Just one heal potion and the two most devastating epic spells are wasted. You don't even need to have a lot of HP. If you have enough to get through one spell, the heal potion will kick in and heal your character before the other deals its damage.
In fact, that's the cure to just about every mage battle. You really shouldn't be dying because of a damage spells in Amia unless it's part of a duel between characters with rules about healing. That's why mages use disabling spells first.. but those are easily overcome with Freedom on items and a ranged weapon.
I've done a lot of PvP over the years, so I consider myself semi-knowledgeable about the ins and outs of it all, and I can't think of a scenario in which it makes sense for anything to exist that sets a Skill vs a Save the way TR does. Tying spell DCs to the Spellcraft skill wouldn't make sense and neither does tying TR to the Intimidation skill.
I probably didn't invent that spell-combo, but I'm going to shamelessly pretend I did for the purposes of this mini-debate we're having.
Here's the difference: EDK doesn't have a Skill vs Save DC calculation for Fear. It's easy, especially with the amount of epic gear floating around the server, to get your saves up high enough that the EDK Fear Aura only hits you on a low roll or a 1. Prismatic Breath rarely kills anything with the randomly generated death effect unless that something rolls a 1. The save isn't astronomical. In fact, not so long ago, my character was having a duel with a character who had saves across the board so high that he was effectively immune to all spells outside of a roll of 1-3 on the DC. The only spell DCs you need to worry about on Amia are the Death spell DCs, and really only because people will spam them because they usually only work on a 1.
I'm going to claim the invention of Timestop + Hellball + Greater Ruin timed so that they hit at the same time too. You know the cure to that one? A heal potion. Just one heal potion and the two most devastating epic spells are wasted. You don't even need to have a lot of HP. If you have enough to get through one spell, the heal potion will kick in and heal your character before the other deals its damage.
In fact, that's the cure to just about every mage battle. You really shouldn't be dying because of a damage spells in Amia unless it's part of a duel between characters with rules about healing. That's why mages use disabling spells first.. but those are easily overcome with Freedom on items and a ranged weapon.
I've done a lot of PvP over the years, so I consider myself semi-knowledgeable about the ins and outs of it all, and I can't think of a scenario in which it makes sense for anything to exist that sets a Skill vs a Save the way TR does. Tying spell DCs to the Spellcraft skill wouldn't make sense and neither does tying TR to the Intimidation skill.
mage duels are different, in a way. every mage you face is going to have spellcraft, which translates to universal saves vs spells. if it's a wizard, that's a ton, maybe +8-10, and a sorc will still have +6-7. most people don't gear for will, so that dragon fear is gonna work on a lot of classes that don't have will as their primary save. They gear fort to protect against dev crit. Which, thinking on it, sort of hurts my argument, on the PvP side debate. but again, mages have various other options. barbs do not, and are a feat starved class.
I guess my thoughts have changed on this as the thread has gone on, if only a little. I don't disagree that the TR DC can get pretty high, but I think nerfing that bit will hurt an already mediocre class, that's outmatched by a lot of things (PvP and PvE), despite TR. I'm more of the line of thinking that if the devs/dms do decide to change something, it should be more than just a nerf.
_________________ so he would always have a friend
Don't forget that even without terrifying rage, a barbarian isn't helpless. The bread and butter 24/4/2 Barb/Fighter/Rogue gets a 54 AB while raging, with no other buffs. By contrast, the bread and butter STR WM gets 51. They also get around 400 HP (assuming 14 CON), and have some decent tanking options. IKD, Devcrit, Thundering Rage gives +1d8 sonic damage, and there's the other bonuses a rage gives them. Barbarians aren't, nor shouldn't, be a one trick pony with terrifying rage.
As for mages, they have a flexible array of options. Depending on the foci they take, they can (and likely should) have options to go against fort saves, reflex saves, and will saves. Necromancy provides vs fort and will, conjuration provides options vs fort and reflex, (and will for outsiders), evoc has vs reflex, enchantment has vs will. And they have saveless direct damage. Tailor your spells to your foes, and mages can rock. Just a matter of preparedness and/or flexibility.
If you compare a barbarian/fighter/rogue to a fighter/rogue/WM you're wrong. the fighter/rogue/WM is better due to the extra feats and the WM crits. Barbarians that want WM are feat-starved and to help alleviate that, they can take fighter levels, like in Frugdar's case, but then become unable to tank anything or use UMD, or a host of other abilities that rogue levels give.
If you compare a barbarian/fighter/rogue to a fighter/rogue/WM you're wrong. the fighter/rogue/WM is better due to the extra feats and the WM crits. Barbarians that want WM are feat-starved and to help alleviate that, they can take fighter levels, like in Frugdar's case, but then become unable to tank anything or use UMD, or a host of other abilities that rogue levels give.
Let me do some math, then. For the sake of argument, I'll have both using scimitars/shields, with a +5 AB +1d10 damage +4 enh Keen scimitar, and assume both get dev crit, and use a FW Scroll.
HP: 322 (12 CON to start, starting stats 18/13/12/13/8/8)
So, the regular barbarian sports about 100 HP over the WM, also 9.5 more damage/hit on average, and 3 AB. The WM gets better criticals, but well, that's the whole WM schtick. So you can make the barbarian work with it and work pretty well. I've seen one of those beat a very strong epic dodger dex WM, which other STR WMs had trouble beating.
And, as for barbarians being feat starved, they can get all their core for pre-epic. Case in point with my bread and butter build there:
There are other variants of barbarian. You're posting the most optimized version of a build that I'm sure most don't use. While I see the point you're making here, that a version of barbarian is potent, I don't think it's fair to assume all barbs build as such. And comparing to only a WM? And if I may go a little off topic, are you saying that 3 extra AB made the difference is a clean victory against a dex based WM? That seems odd. I'll stop here, though. I'm sure you've read all I have to say on the argument.
_________________ so he would always have a friend
Why so much rage when you can counter it with commonly selled potion which you can buy for few gold pieces (okay 4k, but on Amia you get to half a mil before being even 30).
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I think we're getting pretty far into the weeds with all the build talk. The simple truth is that, whether there are other strengths to the class or not, no class should have an ability or spell that can have DCs so high that it is literally impossible to counter without total immunity to the effect.
What other class abilities are saveless and mean an instant win unless the other party, NPC or PC, has immunity to the effect? You said yourself that it's functionally saveless right now because the DC is so high.
I think we're getting pretty far into the weeds with all the build talk. The simple truth is that, whether there are other strengths to the class or not, no class should have an ability or spell that can have DCs so high that it is literally impossible to counter without total immunity to the effect.
I could agree to this, if the class were at the top of the food chain. but it's not. comparably, if the dc IS reduced, it'll be about equal to that of a necro focused fear spell, at best. nobody has an issue with the fear spell though. and a mage, fears aside, is gonna smoke just about anything if played right, barb included.
also sorry if this doesn't make sense, super tired. will look it over again in morning
_________________ so he would always have a friend
I think we're getting pretty far into the weeds with all the build talk. The simple truth is that, whether there are other strengths to the class or not, no class should have an ability or spell that can have DCs so high that it is literally impossible to counter without total immunity to the effect.
I could agree to this, if the class were at the top of the food chain. but it's not. comparably, if the dc IS reduced, it'll be about equal to that of a necro focused fear spell, at best. nobody has an issue with the fear spell though. and a mage, fears aside, is gonna smoke just about anything if played right, barb included.
also sorry if this doesn't make sense, super tired. will look it over again in morning
What treasured is getting at is that you don't see the entire server full of barbs with terrifying rage, which should be an indicator. While I don't have a problem with dropping the DC, because it can be absolutely absurd, I rather see the balance be focused on things that might actually deserve a nerf. No one ever suggests nerfing epic dodge and yet it is the single most powerful feat in the game, it is on par with the old dev crit, and makes the top tier almost unbeatable dex builds possible.
Let's also not forget that the fighter/rogue/WM build you posted, does in fact, get -shittons- more feats and skills than the barbarian build. That barbarian build is simply not as good as the fighter/rogue/WM build, and in fact to go one step further, I dare you to make that barbarian build and go fight Dirk.
Dirk will win.
That modest amount of HP does not make the build substantially better, everybody knows that AC > HP, and even in YOUR OWN bread and butter build, you do not have expertise (much less improved expertise), so you are a sub-par build already.
This doesn't even touch on variations of the fighter/rogue/WM build that are more powerful than the one you provided (such as Dirk, who has lots of Rogue levels, and so he has Epic Dodge.)
Those that know me sadly know me as the guy who has so many OP 30 builds I Normally dont join these kind of discussions but seriusly guy's, are we really talking about nerving Teri rage, when we still have things like. Epic dodge , KC Shiters in golem form drinking flame pots , Mages! , the lvl 27 Repose summon , druids using the lvl 9 spel slot item at lvl 7 , Mages! and UBERRUCE(we should ban him)
Even if Teri rage is Overpowered and yes you can get it to about 41 in my opinion without sacrificing to much on gear (yes you have a cloak that gives +10 but you need that slot for the +4 fort one) And no a Barbarian build wont take Epic skill focus intimidate unless they wont to loose Armor skin, mighty rage ,epic weapon focus, overwhelming crit, deva crit.
My point is rather simple , leave it alone if we start medling with this, i suggest you start with other things like Epic dodge + improved evasion + WM crits witch makes a Dex Wm immune to 90% of the things in the game and steamrolls it at the same time with nearly no bufs
What startles me even more is folks complaining its unfair in PVP when again we have Untouchable shifters, Strength Wm's, divine caster, Mages , Dex WM's , that Barbarian's only hope with his meager 45 AB, (give or take)is that you somehow forgot to drink MB, or that he can Mord you if he even has UMD , and you somehow manige to run in and out of the fear aura without drinking another MB pot.
And i 100% agree its OP , but if we start on that Road then there's allot more OP things to fix
_________________ Plays: Ragnar Ungorn Hasam Alrab
I agree with Darkblade, there are way worse things that could use attention if we're worried about fairness.
But one more thing before I sign off for the morning: Rage takes an action to use. In that time, without terrifying rage as you're all suggesting, someone else can drink haste. That almost nullifies the bonus to AB that rage gives, and gives your opponent a bunch of other goodies as well, that will basically ensure your doom.
Or they can cast Time Stop if they're a wizard.
Or Grease.
Or they can just run up to you and IKD you if you're close, while you're flatfooted.
Let's also not forget that the fighter/rogue/WM build you posted, does in fact, get -shittons- more feats and skills than the barbarian build. That barbarian build is simply not as good as the fighter/rogue/WM build, and in fact to go one step further, I dare you to make that barbarian build and go fight Dirk.
Dirk will win.
Dirk's a powerbuild to the extreme, and a DEX based WM which is one of the best builds in the game. That's not even a good comparison. And you are talking about a Barb/WM is which a niche build and rather bad to do because of how feat starved it is. That is one of the risks you take in making a build like that.
Lacking Expertise and Imp Expertise do not make a build subpar.
Darkblade wrote:
And no a Barbarian build wont take Epic skill focus intimidate unless they wont to loose Armor skin, mighty rage ,epic weapon focus, overwhelming crit, deva crit.
What? I just looked at my last barb build and it has ESF: Intimidate, EWF, EWS, Dev Crit, and Armor Skin.
Darkblade wrote:
What startles me even more is folks complaining its unfair in PVP when again we have Untouchable shifters, Strength Wm's, divine caster, Mages , Dex WM's , that Barbarian's only hope with his meager 45 AB, (give or take)
Uh, Barbs have at least 50 AB, and that's with a +4 weapon. That's standard for every STR based melee build (discounting Paladins). Barbs get the advantage because of their rage.
Darkblade wrote:
And i 100% agree its OP , but if we start on that Road then there's allot more OP things to fix
And those are being worked on, too.
_________________ Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play: Salema Nefahri::A penny for your thots Zrae'a'stra'fryn::That which nightmares are made of Khasir::From the East a storm is coming
Assume people have +5 gear, mage armor, haste, ac ioun. +12 stat gear. No other ab spell buffs.
24barb/4fighter/2rogue Unyielding/Terror/Thundering rage (No mighty) Human Earth Gensai 51AB. 65AC. Dev Crit
17Rogue/6Fighter/7WM Human Air Gensai 48AB. 67AC. Without expertise active. Epic Dodge.
Seems pretty balanced to me. 3AB for 2AC (Not including the HP/DR/Damage/Saves barbs get!). The only real issue is that generally Epic Dodge > Dev Crit. But that has nothing to do with Barbarian and TerroRage
Last edited by lilmarcat on Thu, Dec 24 2015, 16:45 PM, edited 1 time in total.
As for the actual ability to Terrifying Rage I'd be for something along the lines of
Level + CON mod vs will (fear) for 1d3 rounds + Barb gains an additional 3/- and 2 damage.
Nerf the DC from stupid skill vs save. Duration of the feat should already be 6-18secs which isn't that bad. Buff the feat with an additional incentive (DR/Damage or whatever) so it isn't a one trick pony thats countered instantly by readily available potions/spells
As for the actual ability to Terrifying Rage I'd be for something along the lines of
Level + CON mod vs will (fear) for 1d3 rounds + Barb gains an additional 3/- and 2 damage.
Nerf the DC from stupid skill vs save. Duration of the feat should already be 6-18secs which isn't that bad. Buff the feat with an additional incentive (DR/Damage or whatever) so it isn't a one trick pony thats countered instantly by readily available potions/spells
I'd take that- despite me still thinking there's more important balance issues, this isn't going away. It's fair enough, as I see it. And what do you mean duration? As in it should be changed to 6-18 seconds? The duration now is 5+con mod (in rounds), which I think is fine.
_________________ so he would always have a friend
I think some of you aren't being realistic about how mages are balanced on the server. The build I mentioned earlier that had high saves across the board was a barbarian. The build also had Freedom, Improved Evasion, incredibly high HP, crazy DR, massive health regen (+12 or more, I think), full immunity to some damage types, partial immunity to magic damage, UMD for scrolls, and TR.
The epic items floating around the server make it possible to be basically immune to mages outside of a roll of 1 on a Death save. People can even request Immunity to Fear on DC items now, which takes out the only disabling spell that Freedom doesn't grant total immunity to.
The duration of rage should be 5+Con mod. The duration of the fear should be the original 1d3 rounds (incorrectly listed as 1d6 in the description). Being feared for over a minute is just a guaranteed insta-win unless stupid path finding prevents the barbarian from killing their feared target. The main point of this discussion is to stop TerroRage from being a one trick insta win button. So, nerf the duration to a respectable level, nerf the save DC to something proper, then give it some other benefit to compensate.
Also adding both fear and paralysis (Which is the original "fear" effect) as an affect would stop non-freedom people from running away!
Mages are both overpowered; and underpowered because of good old gear balance. With evasion, freedom and mind immunity readily available, Mages quickly fall off against geared people. That's an entirely different discussion though about nerfing all items back to +1-3!
Quote:
While the barbarian is raging, any enemy (with less than the barbarian's hit dice) that comes close to him must make a will save opposed by the barbarian's intimidate check or become panicked for 1d6 1d3 rounds
And i 100% agree its OP , but if we start on that Road then there's allot more OP things to fix
And those are being worked on, too.
pls enough with the nerf talksssssssssss.
Krin wrote:
I think some of you aren't being realistic about how mages are balanced on the server. The build I mentioned earlier that had high saves across the board was a barbarian. The build also had Freedom, Improved Evasion, incredibly high HP, crazy DR, massive health regen (+12 or more, I think), full immunity to some damage types, partial immunity to magic damage, UMD for scrolls, and TR.
The epic items floating around the server make it possible to be basically immune to mages outside of a roll of 1 on a Death save. People can even request Immunity to Fear on DC items now, which takes out the only disabling spell that Freedom doesn't grant total immunity to.
The power creep is real.
Mages balanced? Not even a little. But me, I prefer it that way, because to really master it takes a lot of skill. The only time a mage is gonna be beat is if it's outplayed or tricked. In the event something is geared as you described (which seems a little much to have arcane defiance, 12 regen, full damage immunity to more than one type of damage, freedom, and improved evasion...) and you really feel like you can't do anything, well you can. And if you can't think of what to do in a pinch (which I often fail at), then you still have several escapes and no other classes have- GS, time stop, invisibilities, darkness, grease(if used right). Additionally as a mage, you shouldn't be reliant on DC based spells. Generally speaking.
this has nothing to do with TR. sry. but every topic always shifts around like this huh?
_________________ so he would always have a friend
then you still have several escapes and no other classes have- GS, time stop, invisibilities, darkness, grease(if used right).
Yeah.. running away is all mages got left, because their offensive spells don't do anything to these individuals (there are many).
Funny to note that these "so called best mage abilities" are actually better if used as a item by another class, and quite common on that end too.
Heavily powerful items like the ones described above, as well as DC items in general dictate no compromise, leading to irrationally inflated saves. No mage, level 1-100 can beat these saves. This leads to mages resorting to saveless spells like ice storm, and igms. Which now don't work either for the same reasons. The problem is quite simple, really. A lot of characters possess item properties that were designed for NPCs, and now the game isn't even allowed to work.
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) or timestop and hellball + GR?
