AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

Created in GD for poll option, feel free to move to IA.

Amia is more than a decade old, and this game is older still. The time spent leveling is unproductive to the grand scheme of the server's longevity, and it's very easy to question in it's current state just how long it might last. When we're spending so much time reaching 30 [and I'm not saying anyone has to, but I'm saying that there is a clearly defined length of time that does need to be invested] and beyond that gearing to proper gear [which makes the leveling process pale by comparison]

It's clear that this time doesn't get spent doing what we all came to Amia to do; Roleplay. And if you've found a way to make engaging roleplay of your 14th circuit of spiders on your 20th character [totaling probably in the hundreds of the same 2 maps] Then you need to share your secret, because the majority of us are just clicking mob to mob, because that's the mechanics this decade+ game gave us.

XP rates don't only hinder individual character roleplay but they also hinder the creativity and ability for people to experience just everything that server has to offer. How many of us have had amazing character concepts but simply came to the realization "Yeah fuck leveling that" ... even more curious, how many of us have played all the classes amia offers? All the build archetypes?

I've played Amia for over nearly 7 years and I still haven't played a MS, I haven't cast an epic spell, I haven't played a cleric, I haven't played a bard... And it's not because I don't want to, it's because I can't be asked to spend the time it requires leveling them. I recognize my time is better spent roleplaying in this ailing game, and I believe others feel the same way.

I simply propose, that for the sake of longevity, and diversity we increase the XP rate 5-10x it's current settings.

OMG no.... just...no

Mechanics do not dictate our ability or potential for roleplay.

Want to RP? Then RP.

I respect your right to an opinion my friend, but simply saying no you can RP does not refute the list of points I have given as to why we should. Please, elaborate.

One does not have time unless one takes time. There is no /need/ to level in this, or any other RPG. It is a /role playing game/. Simple.

Well... it's been said a million times, and gets ignored every time, but... what if we just got rid of the +/- 5 level party limit. That is the #1 reason for the rush to 30, just so you can hang with the rest of the server. If we are a roleplay server, why does a level 30 have to make an OOC based IC excuse as to why they can't show that level 2 around the dungeons? And, yes, I know they certainly can, and there's no gold, no xp for either person. I just don't understand why anyone would really do it, and they just don't. I also don't understand why we even have this limit. It just degrades roleplay and segregates people by level, which is an OOC concept anyway.

Analog Kid wrote:

One does not have time unless one takes time. There is no /need/ to level in this, or any other RPG. It is a /role playing game/. Simple.

You cannot roleplay a master catburglar with a hide skill of 7. So...

Great if you want to be a pig farmer with no aspirations, but adequately for a game? Not so much.

MightNMagic wrote:

You cannot roleplay a master catburglar with a hide skill of 7. So...

....Nor does one become one in a week. Soo....

Wow. No!

Analog Kid wrote:

One does not have time unless one takes time. There is no /need/ to level in this, or any other RPG. It is a /role playing game/. Simple.

What Analog said.

MightNMagic wrote:

You cannot roleplay a master catburglar with a hide skill of 7. So...

Even a master catburglar have to start as a newbie pickpocket. There has to be a character progress, nobody's born an epic.

This is so wrong.

EDIT: So ninja'd by AK.

Ti'avel wrote:

Well... it's been said a million times, and gets ignored every time, but... what if we just got rid of the +/- 5 level party limit. That is the #1 reason for the rush to 30, just so you can hang with the rest of the server. If we are a roleplay server, why does a level 30 have to make an OOC based IC excuse as to why they can't show that level 2 around the dungeons? And, yes, I know they certainly can, and there's no gold, no xp for either person. I just don't understand why anyone would really do it, and they just don't. I also don't understand why we even have this limit. It just degrades roleplay and segregates people by level, which is an OOC concept anyway.

Not a bad idea, I'd say. While it wouldn't boost xp, it'd certainly make xp easier to get, and make the grind there less frantic and stressful. Even as a 30 I'd be more motivated to grind high level areas if I knew I was helping others get there.

No. Please just no.
Removing lvl limit for party is also stupid idea imho.
Just leave it as it is.

Seriously, you could just give everyone lvl 30 on creating a character so everyone feels extremely powerful.

Can pretty safely say that none of my characters had a great deal of meaningful "character progression" while dealing with the grind. Their "character progression" was the result of larger story arcs, not fighting through broken dungeons repeatedly while avoiding the boss hunter squad of the month. I always RPed their "newbie days" as off screen backstory, which I can write far more creatively than the limited Amian locale can provide, and try my best to pretend they never had to endure the immersion-breaking process of doing the same quests every other person seems to have done.

Getting levels is fairly easy and when we see people reaching lvl 30 in mere days the time spent we hope they had a journey too.

Besides, we've already lowered costs of DCs in case of level progressing not that long ago. And DCs are earned through roleplay.

So if you wish not to grind, just roleplay, then do and progress through DCs.

What AK, Guardian and Bertnard said about this...

a) Certainly not raising XP rates, just because you do not want lvling.

b) PLEASE DON'T! say that it is a good idea to allow 30 lvl characters group up with lvl 2, this is just wrong.

Let me explain... Almost whole time of Corin Reyes crisis (aka Monster World plot few months back), I was RP-ing in Kohl with Reynard. I started this character at the very beginning of this plot and almost immediately I was accepted by Pony to ranks of Kohlingen, just because of the Character Concept. Even after the Crisis, I wasn't full level, I didn't have the best gear, etc. I was just doing everything via RP. (So what, you can't hang out with the army of heroic 30 lvl characters in battle against extremely, almost god-like powerful mage? Think different!) -> And with that I was doing the simple thing. Because of the background, I was helping with a drills for newly formed NPC militia. I was thinking about the Counter-intelligence matters, because of being Inquisitor. I was trying to handle the reinforcements from the mainland, because cooperation with certain churches, etc.

Everything is about imagination. When someone will try to PvP you, why think in a way (ok, he will KD me and f*ck me off, because he is 30 and I am just 15!) and not about the fact, that your character can have some kind of experience from that? He beated him to the ground? Good, I know his tactic, next time when I will meet him, maybe I will be equal and can show him who is boss! (Revenge is answer! :twisted:

)

No seriously - Everything is about imagination. Think different, not in a certain said ways and you can be the winner, instead of blaming the mechanics.

Now about the group with 2-30 lvl... You think it will help? Most of the players got almost closed society here, which is separated to few different groups/guilds/etc.
These guys/girls usually hang out with each other on Skype or Facebook, being a friends in RL (Nothing wrong with this!) and now comes to issue.
One will come with the awesome concept for a new character, but it is hard to grind it to top level (because without levels, he is nothing :roll:

) and asks this fellow - "Hey, you got a 30 lvl mage/fighter/or whatever else... Can you group up with me and make few circles around the dungeons?
What do you think - What will be the answer?
Now, this only leads to tragical raising of OOC, because he doesn't want to turn his back on his friend, so he will take his paladin, who definitely doesn't know this new character, throw in some kind of necessary RP like "Hey, my name is XXX, I see you are new here, let me help you in the name of my god, blah blah blah" and hurray to the dungeon!
And it doesn't matter, if this character is also paladin, or banite or servant of Orcus, orc and whatever else, because... He is a RL friend. And friends usually help, right?

Yeah you could level to 30 in a week or two with minimal effort, I think even a coma patient could manage it and that was before the devs threw out easy EXP in the form of the job system to top it off..

Also I hope this is not how this is shaping up

Analog Kid wrote:

Strikeclone wrote:

Good luck with this, I just hope it doesn't devolve (as such things tend to do here) into powerbuild powering power trips and god mode rp to provoke idiotic pvp with no real rp basis. From what I have witness and experienced directly this is a very real problem which often generates counter god mode rp...

SC

due respect, but you know we're all thinking it. Also, i'm curious if those involved plan on getting their toons to max level as a priority before anything substantial comes of the RP. Don't take this the wrong way though. It's just another thought that I know we're all thinking.

OpenTheRift wrote:

no offense but if you aren't interested in playing in the faction, then you're not posting for the right reason. :lol:

Followed by a thread to increase the rate that people can zerg rush to 30.......

Leveling on Amia is a horrible pain in the ass. It's not fun, it's not innovative, and nearly all the dungeons are geared towards level 30s anyways. The reason people rush to level 30 is because there is all the incentive to be at the same par as the rest of the community, which has been level 30 for a billion years. There is too big of a distance between new players and characters vs. the older ones.

I never denied that Amian leveling is my absolute least favorite part about it all, because it really is. People find ways to exploit the job system and otherwise because grinding through the same five dungeons a billion times is no better. But at the same time, developing new dungeons in general takes a whole hellish process on its own. The most recent dungeons have been mostly geared towards the higher levels, so we are inherently giving to the incentive of getting to that point quicker.

SamTheGiantSlayer wrote:

Leveling on Amia is a horrible pain in the ass. It's not fun, it's not innovative, and nearly all the dungeons are geared towards level 30s anyways. The reason people rush to level 30 is because there is all the incentive to be at the same par as the rest of the community, which has been level 30 for a billion years. There is too big of a distance between new players and characters vs. the older ones.

I never denied that Amian leveling is my absolute least favorite part about it all, because it really is. People find ways to exploit the job system and otherwise because grinding through the same five dungeons a billion times is no better. But at the same time, developing new dungeons in general takes a whole hellish process on its own. The most recent dungeons have been mostly geared towards the higher levels, so we are inherently giving to the incentive of getting to that point quicker.

corypx wrote:

Yeah you could level to 30 in a week or two with minimal effort, I think even a coma patient could manage it and that was before the devs threw out easy EXP in the form of the job system to top it off..

Also I hope this is not how this is shaping up

Analog Kid wrote:

Strikeclone wrote:

Good luck with this, I just hope it doesn't devolve (as such things tend to do here) into powerbuild powering power trips and god mode rp to provoke idiotic pvp with no real rp basis. From what I have witness and experienced directly this is a very real problem which often generates counter god mode rp...

SC

due respect, but you know we're all thinking it. Also, i'm curious if those involved plan on getting their toons to max level as a priority before anything substantial comes of the RP. Don't take this the wrong way though. It's just another thought that I know we're all thinking.

OpenTheRift wrote:

no offense but if you aren't interested in playing in the faction, then you're not posting for the right reason. :lol:

Followed by a thread to increase the rate that people can zerg rush to 30.......

Glad I wasn't the only one to notice....

SamTheGiantSlayer wrote:

Leveling on Amia is a horrible pain in the ass. It's not fun, it's not innovative, and nearly all the dungeons are geared towards level 30s anyways. The reason people rush to level 30 is because there is all the incentive to be at the same par as the rest of the community, which has been level 30 for a billion years. There is too big of a distance between new players and characters vs. the older ones.

I never denied that Amian leveling is my absolute least favorite part about it all, because it really is. People find ways to exploit the job system and otherwise because grinding through the same five dungeons a billion times is no better. But at the same time, developing new dungeons in general takes a whole hellish process on its own. The most recent dungeons have been mostly geared towards the higher levels, so we are inherently giving to the incentive of getting to that point quicker.

This could be used to petition for a level max of 10. Which would reduce the gap between min, and max level toons, and reduce the time grinding.

/Everything/ here that is /for/ the OP is focusing on getting to max level, and leaving out everything in between.

"The point of the journey is not to arrive."

You know, I see people hand-wringing about the handful of people who powergrind to 30 whenever we have this discussion, and it's less and less convincing every time I hear it. Even setting aside the fact that it's just complaining about people doing things you subjectively don't like, they're not the ones who'd benefit. Powergrinders are set, they have what they want, not changing anything won't change anything about them. The people who want change are the ones who don't powergrind.

I have abandoned characters who were fun to RP with because leveling became unbearable. It's not an active choice, I just gradually log in less and less with them until one day I just stop. You might tut-tut that and say that I'm a lesser roleplayer for it, but I can't just stand around and gossip in cities, that doesn't keep my interest. We're playing adventurers, but when adventure loses its appeal, that's it.

I've been here on and off for seven years. In that time, I've made over 70 characters. Only three of those has reached epic levels, and I cheesed the job system for all three. To date, I still have only one at level 30.

SamTheGiantSlayer wrote:

Leveling on Amia is a horrible pain in the ass. It's not fun, it's not innovative, and nearly all the dungeons are geared towards level 30s anyways. The reason people rush to level 30 is because there is all the incentive to be at the same par as the rest of the community, which has been level 30 for a billion years. There is too big of a distance between new players and characters vs. the older ones.

I never denied that Amian leveling is my absolute least favorite part about it all, because it really is. People find ways to exploit the job system and otherwise because grinding through the same five dungeons a billion times is no better. But at the same time, developing new dungeons in general takes a whole hellish process on its own. The most recent dungeons have been mostly geared towards the higher levels, so we are inherently giving to the incentive of getting to that point quicker.

Yeah but we need some kind of a distance at some point, because at is stands amia has none makingg everyone is the same, and that's not how IRL or FR works and degrades everyone to a joke and no value placed on time and dedication to a character as the more focused to a single person one is the more persistent the world feels, not have 10 alts per account and you hopping around like a bunny rabbit..

A random example (Sorry in advance) is say Malandria Arch druid of amia forest grove been around for year and years and was/is her main char (level 30 druid I assume). The idea that I could finish posting this message and make a druid and be on par with her in a handful of days as it currently stands is sad, now if it was even quicker a 1-2 days would be down right stupid. Because OOC balance rules prevents her from requesting stuff and increasing in power to a noticeable degree, so am I the only one who thinks its wrong if I could be poping out pseudo-arch druids at sweatshop speeds or what ever char/class you can dream up?

At least with a slower leveling speed they have to put a tiny bit of effort to grow up be big and strong and not just join the server and be basically level 30 on creation.

Sure, there should be a natural difference. But it isn't fair to have that difference be so utterly unattainable that new characters shouldn't even bother trying to get some spot light for themselves. And I see the argument against people who play more than one character a billion times; honestly, no one should be punished for moving on from a ten year old character and try something fresh. Arguing that the leveling system is great when you have only been playing one character for ten years and haven't had to grind for like eight of those...hard to see the plight that way. (I say you as in a hypothetical, not you you).

People hardly find leveling as the experience to make anything unique or particularly pertinent to their character's development. It's often the off-time in between, and thereafter. Ask those of us who don't only play one main.

Quote:

People hardly find leveling as the experience to make anything unique or particularly pertinent to their character's development. It's often the off-time in between, and thereafter. Ask those of us who don't only play one main.

That is for the individual, the minority, not the whole. I've taken numerous toons to max, or near max level.

The grind is annoying, boring, and tedious. Higher levels allow for more flexibility in all aspects; that is not to say that you still can't RP being 'weaker' while still higher level. Personal growth and level are not correlated. Easier EXP gain allows players to enter a more equal interactive playing field overall. Whether it takes people two weeks or two hours to reach 30, the time is irrelevant. The journey does not end at level cap. For some, it is just the beginning. For others, it is their sign to stagnate and social RP for years on one character.

Suhjet wrote:

The grind is annoying, boring, and tedious. Higher levels allow for more flexibility in all aspects; that is not to say that you still can't RP being 'weaker' while still higher level. Personal growth and level are not correlated. Easier EXP gain allows players to enter a more equal interactive playing field overall. Whether it takes people two weeks or two hours to reach 30, the time is irrelevant. The journey does not end at level cap. For some, it is just the beginning. For others, it is their sign to stagnate and social RP for years on one character.

This.

Yes, it's boring and tedious but characters can't and shouldn't start as level 30 superbeings. It should be a journey.

I levelled a char solely off the Job system and DCs, and it was not a bad experience, but I admit that's just me. I hate the combat grind too..

Grymia wrote:

characters can't and shouldn't start as level 30 superbeings. It should be a journey.

That doesn't stop people from grinding to 30 now, through the tediousness, only to grow their stories after they hit 30 anyway.

Don't forget to ask for epic gear too. Because DAMN, I can't be bothered to grind that shit all the time, yo, it ruins mah RP!

I think we need to EARN level 30. Your character literally goes through serious changes, not just mechanical but RP. Depending if you grind via the usual leveling you face many monsters, and much death. If you level through harvesting e.t.c then you're going through the same just not violent. There is no use to just raise the EXP when it's perfect now. Does it take a while to hit 30? Yes. Is it worth the time? Sometimes. I have a level 3 that has rebuilt 2 times from 30ish and I don't bother to level him again. He is level 30 and all I do is hang out and rp. Do I outmatch people in rp via levels? Nupe. Shouldn't stop you from enjoying your time. You only /need/ level 30 if you think you need it.

Props to Fymor for doing the same!

LibrisMortis_666 wrote:

If you level through harvesting e.t.c then you're going through the same just not violent.

Well, I have always found the idea of two warriors, one trained on the battlefield, and one trained by pressing juice from apples, facing each other in combat, hilarious. Even more so if that juice making guy would win.

Amia - you're so "special" :mrgreen:

I am hearing that the journey is 3-30. I always thought the journey was the RP we created, and how it shaped our characters and the world. No one has yet disagreed that time spent grinding is clearly inferior in production of roleplay than time spent actually roleplaying.

The journey isn't 3-30. The journey is the roleplay. If I want to be level 30 with my roleplay, then that's what I want. I will have that regardless of what XP rate you give me. Just like you'll have your RP no matter the XP rate.

I'd take your argument of the job system and mechanical builds/levels a step further and say a master spy somehow learned his skills killing 4000 balors, kobolds, and dragons.

Pretty sure if a burglary can kill a Balor he has enough skill to skill / spy / e.t.c on a common human. .

Ti'avel wrote:

Well... it's been said a million times, and gets ignored every time, but... what if we just got rid of the +/- 5 level party limit. That is the #1 reason for the rush to 30, just so you can hang with the rest of the server. If we are a roleplay server, why does a level 30 have to make an OOC based IC excuse as to why they can't show that level 2 around the dungeons? And, yes, I know they certainly can, and there's no gold, no xp for either person. I just don't understand why anyone would really do it, and they just don't. I also don't understand why we even have this limit. It just degrades roleplay and segregates people by level, which is an OOC concept anyway.

^This. It gets awkward to have to stop and do the "Sorry, but you'd learn nothing/ I'd learn nothing if we went out together" thing icly. Getting rid of the +/-5 level would help people to RP easier and perhaps even cut down on the rush to thirty.

I think we could stand to have more quests, rather than less. Don't worry so much about refurbishing or rebuilding new zones - a grind is a grind. But quests - especially enough branching quests to make it different for every trip to 30 - make things more interesting. I'm aware that coding in quests is difficult so it's unlikely we'll ever get that many, but still, maybe something should be done to restore quests we've lost. There's no shortage of lore to work with or writers to throw ideas in, it just needs to be assembled.

LibrisMortis_666 wrote:

I have a level 3 that has rebuilt 2 times from 30ish and I don't bother to level him again. He is level 30 and all I do is hang out and rp. Do I outmatch people in rp via levels? Nupe. Shouldn't stop you from enjoying your time. You only /need/ level 30 if you think you need it.

No, some people really do need it, unless they want conflict-less RP. Or don't want to grind for epic gear. Or don't wanna be a badass.

That's not to say I think the road should be cake. Because if you have a character that can grind beholders, it's cake. An issue is finding groups. Most builds can't solo, and it takes some time to get a group. Then how long can they stay? How long can you stay? The #grind30journey is dependent on various things. And often it becomes a silent clicky quest of kill everything asap. What kind of journey is that? I'm in favor of at least a slight to mild xp boost, or decent alternative way to get xp. Maybe randomly generated quests like some jobs offer, but worth fair xp. Couple K. Because what's 3-5k stacked against 435,000? Still would take some time.

I kinda dislike the common trope used on people who want level 30 quickly. Honestly, if it fits your character concept, then really you shouldn't be chided for it. It bothered me relentlessly when I finally managed to get my special character, Gevevieve approved. She's a war wizard, who spent years training. It seemed ridiculous to me for her to start at level 2. So, I ate a crapton of DCs and grinded some levels for her until she was in her mid-twenties. And eventually 30. Meanwhile she doesn't go about flaunting her power, and I don't intend to make my powerbuilt Mage into a PvP mongerer.

And why? Because grinding levels isn't fun and I didn't think that leveling her the normal way is the kind of development I was looking for with her. Sure you can use the time from 2-30 to change how your character mechanically develops, but to say that's the only way to do it, or tha we all should adhere to that mentality promotes a stagnant, homogenized, and downright boring style of role play. That said, again, if you want to use the time to level the slow way-- go for it! If you think it'll be fun, then more power to you. Forcing your style of role play on others is not only unfair, but should be discouraged. We all aren't the same.

Personally, I'm all for increasing XP rates. It doesn't force anyone to level faster than they want to, and allows people who want to get leveling over with faster to do so. Plus, not everyone has the time or will to grind. We're here to have fun, why force an out of date system on others simply because you like it the way it is?

Guardian wrote:

Besides, we've already lowered costs of DCs in case of level progressing not that long ago. And DCs are earned through roleplay.

So if you wish not to grind, just roleplay, then do and progress through DCs.

Oh please. Don't even pretend that gaining DCs is a matter of "just roleplaying". We all know it's not.

Larsaan wrote:

Oh please. Don't even pretend that gaining DCs is a matter of "just roleplaying". We all know it's not.

I agree, most of my DCs have come from development work. Which is why the DC adjustment, while nice for vet players, is not viable for everyone.

I actualy like the idea of increasing XP rates by 5-10% (It's literally as easy as sliding a bar in the module options up a notch to increase XP gain rate, from what I recall).

It would make leveling faster, less grinding means you're not spending an hour hunting goblins and Orcs, but in Cordor or wherever, interacting with players and the world.

It's a far more viable, and easy fix than revamping the xp system, and it encourages DM's to see and interact with all that RP everyone is talking about.

Raua wrote:

I kinda dislike the common trope used on people who want level 30 quickly. Honestly, if it fits your character concept, then really you shouldn't be chided for it. It bothered me relentlessly when I finally managed to get my special character, Gevevieve approved. She's a war wizard, who spent years training. It seemed ridiculous to me for her to start at level 2. So, I ate a crapton of DCs and grinded some levels for her until she was in her mid-twenties. And eventually 30. Meanwhile she doesn't go about flaunting her power, and I don't intend to make my powerbuilt Mage into a PvP mongerer.

And why? Because grinding levels isn't fun and I didn't think that leveling her the normal way is the kind of development I was looking for with her. Sure you can use the time from 2-30 to change how your character mechanically develops, but to say that's the only way to do it, or tha we all should adhere to that mentality promotes a stagnant, homogenized, and downright boring style of role play. That said, again, if you want to use the time to level the slow way-- go for it! If you think it'll be fun, then more power to you. Forcing your style of role play on others is not only unfair, but should be discouraged. We all aren't the same.

Personally, I'm all for increasing XP rates. It doesn't force anyone to level faster than they want to, and allows people who want to get leveling over with faster to do so. Plus, not everyone has the time or will to grind. We're here to have fun, why force an out of date system on others simply because you like it the way it is?

Trained war wizard scome out at about level 9-10, putting them at roughly 3rd level in the class.

not level 30.

Elminster is level 35.

If you're going to attempt to make arguments with an appeal to canon, please correctly cite canon.

Raua wrote:

Personally, I'm all for increasing XP rates. It doesn't force anyone to level faster than they want to, and allows people who want to get leveling over with faster to do so. Plus, not everyone has the time or will to grind. We're here to have fun, why force an out of date system on others simply because you like it the way it is?

That can be said about everything.

I don't like farming for gold to buy stuff = make more gold drop/make stuff cheaper
I don't like boss farming = make all monsters have a chance to drop from the epic loot table
I don't like writing a small novel for requests = relax your standards on RP needed to pass for all thing request related.

Your not forcing anyone to get more gold, epic loot or requests passed then they want so why not just let people get said part over with faster if they don't have the time or will to grind, We're here to have fun, why force an out of date system on others simply because you like it the way it is?

Since I am tentatively back to Amia after a couple years away, and having voted, I suppose I should add my opinion too. I have recently played on a NWN2 server with an average of 115 XP per enemy if you fought in areas appropriate to your level, which dropped to an average of 25/30 xp per enemy after level 25 (for non ECL races). You would get up to 250 xp per enemy if you fought things a little above your level. The most apparent consequence of that (to my eyes) was that the "central RP hub" was always packed with people RPing, people who joined the server could easily get to a level where they could explore more freely, and were always in adventuring parties after a couple days, since almost everyone was of similar level and could adventure together for gold, fame and materials that much faster.

As you can tell my vote was for bigger XP rewards.

DC rewards require two things, something to reward and a DM to reward them. Regardless of how good someones personal RP might be, it can only be rewarded by a DM so telling a new player to burn DC to get levels doesn't really work if you can't get the RP to be rewarded or happen to be on when a DM is!

Personally i didn't think i would mind the level grind, however, running the same area over and over after you have completed the quest is just... well it's boring. 'Oh look i'm an adventurer... stuck running the same area over and over'. This actually gets to a point you know where the spawn points are and can position yourself so you can walk it. But wait... then you start getting 1xp per kill meaning your at the level limit for that monster/area. hmm.. time to move on, but to where? It genuinely isn't obvious where you can go after finishing one quest.

You hunt round for a new place to level and straight away find yourself out classed by the creatures you are facing. So, party up... sadly this only works if there are people within your level range(and timezone) to party with and free to do so! Actually i lost count of the amount of times i did find a party only to go back to the same Orc caves over and over again!! To be fair i have now found a lot of the quests i could have done while at a lower level, now that my hide is above 60 and i can wander round fairly sure if i come across something i can't handle i'm free to let my animal companion take a beating as i retreat away.

I actually like soloing through areas when there isn't any RP! Seriously if the mod was smaller and everyone was in one place to actually be together and RP then saying that level doesn't matter would be great, but you have two servers here and a shit load of places people hide away in... RP isn't always an option!

My character walked the road from Kohlingen to Cordor because i couldn't find anyone to RP with. It was nice seeing all the areas but at level 15 none of the fights were that rewarding. Oddly at times i struggled to beat them yet for this i get 1xp? These areas i have run through with other players when my character was level 3 but i couldn't help as the spawns were too strong, but now they can provide a challenge at 15 but i see no reward from them? I get the odd loot drop but beyond that, it's not much.

You don't need levels to RP, really if this was true then everyone should have the same level and re-balance the mod so that every encounter is a challenge for all! I've been dragged along with high level characters into areas i would never be able to do by myself and guess what, watching other people fight for you isn't fun or rewarding. ICly i can say i'm learning but not actually leveling any means technically your learning nothing.

"Do you want to hunt with us?".. yep, great. Then straight away the mage casts invis on you and your ICly told to stay behind everyone else as they cut a path through a dungeon. Don't get me wrong i enjoy RPing but the balance of that on a sever which actively encourages RP as well as PvE is that BOTH aspects have to be rewarding. You can't have a world that gives you the areas to explore and hunt, drive characters to near death in fights, then slap them in the face and tell them... 'this is an RP server!' :shock:

Worried about high level characters just crushing everything? Do what my last server did, create an epic dungeon that isn't meant to be finished and challenge the players to party up and try to conquer it!

If your wondering, i burnt through DC coins to level after i hit 10 purely because i got tired of not being able to venture out with the people my character had made connections with!

If more DMs would run impromptu events and small-scale plots while people hunted, it would give us a good reason to roleplay more often away from the hubs, not to mention allow low-level characters to feel useful and develop as individuals. That's the solution, not increasing EXP gain or whatever. Instead of more local plots where newer, less experienced characters have a chance to influence events, it's turned into a goddamn DC grab where the only chance for lowbies to get DCs is to get their asses kicked by level 30+ monsters and not have any bearing whatsoever on the plot, while the regulars (frankly, myself included) get to hog the spotlight. I've said this a dozen times before and I'm getting tired of repeating myself every time this comes up.

And that's all I have to say about this.

I actually in theory agree that DM events and quests are the better alternative solution. However neither of those are feasible, both of these solutions are rendered unfeasible by the condition of inactivity. Not blaming any group, just calling it like it is.

TormakSaber wrote:

Trained war wizard scome out at about level 9-10, putting them at roughly 3rd level in the class.

not level 30.

Elminster is level 35.

If you're going to attempt to make arguments with an appeal to canon, please correctly cite canon.

C'mon now, Amia isn't really full of level 30 characters. Not lore-wise, it's too ridiculous.

It's about relative power levels, right? A trained war wizard should be more powerful than the average city guard, and the average city guard on Amia is an epic level demigod of war. That's the scale of power we're dealing with. Canon doesn't apply here. Aven charges a thousand gold coins for a bottle of wine, and once paid fifty thousand gold for a cartload of barley and herbs. Those are ridiculous numbers in canon, but not on Amia.

*cracks knuckles*

Got the cheerful music on today, so lets dig into this meat and contribute my own nickles into the discussion. As a somewhat newer player still, not even a year I think I can offer a good different'ish insight into the conundrum that is leveling.

The First LvL 30The first character, and the main character. This was FUN, I mean, a great blast, new places to see, new enemies to encounter, hell, early leveling was so fast I missed out on tonnes of exploration, often finding a cool new place and enemies I hadn't encountered - only to find out they were a point-click kill fest. Still, I had a whole BRAND NEW server to explore, and it was TONNES OF FUN.

The path to lvl 16 was painless, pure fun. Then, I noticed the grind get harder, the party volumes thinned, so I started wandering, I found more quests than I thought existed and soon enough I was epic level. Khem was the godsend of places to level.

However, the hump showed itself again at lvl 22-23. I ran out of quests (that I knew of) so the grind on beast men continued until they were worth nothing valuable, even then I grinded them for gold and items.

How did I close the gap to lvl 25? Painting... I sat there and painted until my inventory was full and the trashbin full too... I mean, 150-300xp every five minutes was way better than 5xp a beastman, my build was so weak and items so poor that I couldn't kill /anything but beastmen/ unless I was with a partner. I try not to think about the mindless hours I sat there tabbing in and out every five minutes in a secluded location, without interaction. (but hey, same thing as grinding solo right?)

But when I hit lvl 25... it was the best feeling ever... but... there was a cost to adventuring with the 30's. They knew all the spots, all the bosses, all the high end areas... between 22-30 THE ADVENTURE ENDED. I wasn't able during those times to go on my own and find new things, my character literally couldn't unless it was an empty clickfest. Even after I hit lvl 30 - those beastmen? Still wiping my character without proper potion use. Eventually... I stopped fighting NPC's and ended up becoming a RP bloodhound... I had seen the places and enemies the server had to offer.

My brief case of Alt-SyndromeTrying to liven my life up during my slow grind to 30 on my main character, some buddies of mine proposed crazy schemes and quirky characters that would be great to experiment with, without the goal of grinding.

So, first up was a Banite with two panthers, the half-elf butler priest, the old halfling (which was nearly perma-death'd to old age on his first appearance) and finally a hobgoblin designed to level up knight commander as quick as possible.

Three of the four were fun for me. (sorry Popa, RIP)

The playstyle of the Banite was incrediblely fun, even alone. Three summons that were literally fodder and he couldn't care less. The RP was solid, it brought something new to the table, and it was temporary, I could cause conflict with consequence just by BEING somewhere, it was great, and no one ever had grounds to complain because it was an innocent conflict, no long term effects. Eventually, I ran out of cities to pester and the fun stopped, as I knew repeat visits would start going towards a more meta, unfriendly feel as a player.

The half-elf butler priest, man, I never knew I could have so much fun /not attacking things/ in combat, just offering support and logistics when requested. That made me feel like I was something, not a click-bot, but a /team member/. However... this design stops being fun when you realise there's no one to play with, and you can't feasibly go out on your own and still have fun the same way, so I stopped once more.

That hobgoblin, oh man, HE was powerful. Level 7 and I had built enough of a powerhouse to take out the Malarites (with a mage to blast things of course). Improved Expertise and the KCAura's (which are clearly designed for midrange play) way too potent early on. 1d10 when struck at level 7? Yes please. His RP was fun too, considering his quirky personality and unique race, as well as the small goblin following that came and went... he was a candidate to stay. But... he was a flat character, what I mean is that he was built to reach KC as soon as possible and that's it. He was a mechanical experiment and ended as one. I stopped playing him, I knew the grind would be just as painful as the first lvl 30 character.

By now, my friends who suggested these idea's to try had moved on. They didn't feel like grinding, they wanted adventure, roleplay, fun... and at the same time.

The people they kept meeting for RP... it was a wall of ECL 30... a wall of inadequate stats that ultimately detered two players from playing outright.

RP meant no xp, no xp meant gated RP options.

Dreamcoins? No, for me as a new player, those things are like small priceless kittens you keep bringing into the house and can't let go of.

The time I learned to stop worrying and RolePlay at lvl 4.So crazy had I gotten trying to spice up the rp around me I ended up commiting to a path that required a rebuild. I had few regrets, I was changing my feeble lvl 30 build into something feeble, but much, much stronger RP wise. The capacity to give me a taste of that Banite without being kicked out of towns right away. It wasn't pvp power, it wasn't secrecy or deals, it was a story, something I could create curveballs for, but with a few outcomes that I mostly had the choice to commit to.

And I spent so much time dedicating myself to the character, there was no time to reach a new higher level, or even a reason to. I was happy with what was going on, that underdog status engrained in my playstyle for the character. A big mistake in my books is to play a 'professional hero', as such a low level feeble feeling will disuade you away from play, sometimes for good.

Eventually, there was a feeling that I needed to 'enable' further role play, I began leveling. More levels, more options. Even at lvl 30, sneaking was such a gamble, a skilled thief or sneak is almost always foiled by players who arn't afraid to stack spot to crazy ranges and swap items when they feel combat approaching. No qualms over that, its in the game and should be used - no? I loved what sneaking did for the character, but really, without those items to help you hide anyone can spot you with a decent roll, if they even need to roll.

So trying to get back some level of roleplay I sacrificed when I took lvl 4, again... I met the grind head on. This time, without quests and with a disabled job log... just... please... not again. Not only had the fun been drained from the first time around, but the pacing was halted even further. I went to those other untackled places only to find them difficult, unmanageable and unrelated to player concentrations or even unique dungeon loot. I was afraid even, to go where I hadn't been leveling before because of a possible and sudden challenge rating spike that would end me in a few seconds.

But even then, the road to 16 wasn't bad. But now I'm in a similar position as before, but the build is too weak solo to kill anything than a few rather harmless enemies. Soon enough they won't grant me XP anymore. I've done the numbers and the numbers arn't changing until I reach the end of the 20-30 range. The player volume for this 20-25 zone is pitiful, no one likes grinding at this range, few people stay with one character for this long. Reach 25 I say to myself, then it'll all be better, I can play with lvl 20's and lvl 30's - infact, why should I even go past 25? I get more players at 25, why should I level? RIGHT, so I can sneak again, so I can get the Epic items that I have only just started to get, not because of adventure, but because of finding the right amount of mythals and IC connections.

What am I trying to say with all this? Heh... nothing, just my own tale on Amia so far on an OOC field on the subject of grinding.

Take from it what you will, I'm not trying to discredit anyone, sway the argument from one side to the other. This is what I went through on a personal level.

So how about we ask Fymor?

"My opinion?

Don't make it quicker, solve the issues that make it unfun to begin with. I see an answer and that's something that no one would like unless it was there to begin with.

Making grind faster would be like ripping off a bandage faster.

It still hurts, and it will always hurt."

Didn't we have a similar discussion a while ago which resulted in the DC XP raise?

Just leave things as they are in my opinion. I don't think the arguments posed for this one goes all the way. I personally don't like characters who show up, rush to 30 and only then start RPing. Giving them easier access to it supports 'altitis'(which I also don't like!) and the prior mentioned behaviour. This is just my personal opinion.

Experience Rates and Time Efficiency

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