AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

Charisma being the least useful stat is a fallacy. It's entirely dependent upon class selection.

Balancing encounters and PvP we can't really escape in this game.
Reading back over my own suggestion, I admit it's somewhat naive to think nobody would have a problem with it.
The suggested Daylight Adaption was from an RP perspective; were I playing a Vhaerunite or Shriney, it's something I'd want to pick up for character progression purposes, and it would combat this technical -2 situation. Er.. slightly.
The ECL stuff... ¬.¬ Yeah.

The thing with 'more powerful races' in my mind, is they're... more powerful. Denying max level is a crude way to combat this reality. It certainly wouldn't stop me playing a human, or something else. I mean people playing half-elves know they're sub-optimal from the very start... But they want to RP a half-elf so... They take it on the chin.
I guess the same argument can be reversed 'people play drow now, so why change it'. Shrug!

I don't play one regardless, I just think loosing a cool epic ability is harsh, but Tormak's suggestion is pretty good as a compromise.

Just gunna nudge my on two cents in.. while Sure, drow being as they are have bonuses an negatives. For some cha is actually incredibly needed. look at barbs for intimidate, bards, clerics, and sorcs. All need cha in one way or another.

But if you lower the ECL penalty, then you should flat out remove the one think that makes Drow broken and why people even play drow( mechanically speaking of course, Rp wise some play them well and do a damn good job!): spell resistance. Not much effects a drow at late levels unless you are built to kill the damn things which means wasting on spell pen feats or begging the drow rolls ones while you roll high. This lead to a lot of issues IG as they sometimes just attack cities and makes them a nightmare to deal with if they are playing PVP or such(Which happens a lot I've seen).
I mean.. Look at last time. A group of five drow took down ten people of various levels, some even better then them, just because of SR making them nearly immune to half the things being tossed at them at the time.

Drow are made to be back stabbing, sneaky little twits. It was how they were 'raised' from birth. Power and a sharp silver tongue is everything. That said I highly doubt ANYTHING will change any time soon.. maybe a few years from now, but certainly not now. The dm's have plenty they are working on currently and I doubt they want to fix something as trivial as this.

Sure, they dont get a few things. heck I say let them choose. epic spells or SR & better stats? What would you choose? If i was a wizard id still keep the SR, less likely to be melted by another caster? heck ya. dont get hellballs? well dang, ill survive.

-That- is why i feel the ecl if anything should stay or -be increased- for drow... if you lower it, remove or limit the SR in return.
The 'lesser' drow idea was interesting however.

I mean no harm or any such silly things, This is just my personal thoughts after playing against, with, and as drow.

kalcibone wrote:

But if you lower the ECL penalty, then you should flat out remove the one think that makes Drow broken and why people even play drow( mechanically speaking of course, Rp wise some play them well and do a damn good job!): spell resistance

I don't think that I recall ever hearing of a Drow player (at least not any who were around for long) choosing to play for the SR, or really even the stats for that matter. Further Drow are hardly broken, unless you mean by having a +2ecl. There are some optimal builds designs that many Drow characters have used, but variety is limited on those and even then generally have some Achilles heel. That or they fail to optimize and are often somewhat under powered.

The ECL also Removes a ton of variety of builds that would be weaker than some of the current optimal Drow builds simply because as it is now Some builds are Great and some that are basically trash because they fall short. Shifting ECL down increases playable class options far more and while the entire race would skew up, the gains to the already optimized builds is quite a bit less than the gains you would get on a lot of the current "weak" builds, which would shift many to also actually build those which keeps the overall race from just all going up in power as well.

Then just remove the ECL and then (crucial step) rebalance it by removing SR and one or two of the superfluous ability bonuses (I say superfluous because it's wasted unless you need at least two of those abilities at 14+). If the SR is somehow important for your RP, apply it via items - there's plenty around. No one's ever complained about moon elves or half-elves, because despite being underpowered they have the advantage of that build flexibility over drow.

Really, you're underplaying the benefits already-optimised drow would receive from lowered Level Adjustment. If the SR is unimportant, let it be removed. If they aren't rebalanced, you end up with a significant disparity with ECL+1 and lower races.

Besides, the main contention against the argument of changing it is: drow are already balanced, reduction from ECL+2 would make them OP. Even though the entire ECL+ system is dumb (it was designed for a very different style of play, and it was so bad for that that they tried to change it later), you're still going to have to argue a compromise if you want the people holding the reins to give a damn.

Or convince dissenters to play drow and see how gruesome it really is, I guess.

But (at the risk of turning this into a lore discussion) drow currently are how drow are *supposed* to be. They've had resistance to magic and strong DEX / INT / CHA for thirty years of D&D. They've been described as weak fighters but good magic-users that entire time: they're not *supposed* to have as wide a range of build options as other races. They're intended to be a race of wizards and priestesses and DEX fighters, and the stat bonuses they get are definitely useful to those classes. Start futzing with the race's definitive fundamentals and we're not really playing drow any more, it's just some half-assed quasi-drow compromise designed by buildmonkeys for the purpose of minmaxing.

Watering down the race's abilities isn't a great option, I think. The only open question, in my opinion, is: are the bonuses a drow gets worth +2 ECL? If yes, then the discussion is over. If not, then drop the ECL to +1.

Where have drow been described as weak fighters? I'm honestly curious to see the source of that.

Also, on the topic of mechanical power, I'd personally happily trade the SR (which is massively overrated) and +2 ability for 2 extra levels. Maybe I'm just weird.

That's "weak" as in, not huge and burly and STR-based, not "weak" as in "incompetent."

You're not weird. 39 SR is almost useless in PvP, and only mildly useful in some PvM whereas 2 levels can make all the difference in the world.

I really don't think arguing the lore does anything other than send this in circles. ECL works completely differently in the lore, it has no ceiling.

I disagree. On an RP server, the lore should be the foundation from which we build the mechanics. If Amian drow don't have the fundamentally definitive abilities of the drow, then they are not drow. They're something lesser, something vaguely drowlike but not actually drow.

Drow should have all the abilities that drow are supposed to have. If those abilities are powerful enough to warrant a +2 ECL, then so be it. In that case, choosing to play a drow means you tough up, take the hit, and suffer with the +2 ECL, so that the essence of what it means to be drow can be preserved. So that drow can be drow. Preserving the basic nature of the drow is way more important than concerns about certain builds being inconvenient or impossible under a +2 ECL.

Your points (Liz's and Faded's) aren't mutually exclusive, especially since ECL is really a pure mechanical balance not a reflection of lore (as stats and abilities tend to be).

I personally agree with trying to keep it lore accurate and also that ECL is an awfully implemented mechanic, thus my own reasoning for just dropping the ecl one and upping daytime penalties if needed (including lesser night penalties on the surface maps should also be possible if you really wanted to target balance things) as it keeps lore accurate and is incredibly simple to implement (in relative terms).

A quick reminder: Light penalty doesn't just apply to Drows! Therefore, such a solution might or might not be easy to implement.

A good point to bring up although a racial check is easy enough to put into place, especially considering they are already used elsewhere.

As I said, part of the reasoning for my given possible options is that they would all be simple enough measures to implement, but also allow for quite a bit of flexibility or balancing specifics if wanted.

Liz wrote:

I disagree. On an RP server, the lore should be the foundation from which we build the mechanics. If Amian drow don't have the fundamentally definitive abilities of the drow, then they are not drow. They're something lesser, something vaguely drowlike but not actually drow.

Drow should have all the abilities that drow are supposed to have. If those abilities are powerful enough to warrant a +2 ECL, then so be it. In that case, choosing to play a drow means you tough up, take the hit, and suffer with the +2 ECL, so that the essence of what it means to be drow can be preserved. So that drow can be drow.

Then we should also start using ECL as it was meant to be, which is different from Level Adjustment (which is how we currently implement ECL). +ECL races are not limited on how many levels they can take, they are given an XP penalty and it takes more XP to get to the next level than it would a different race.

Unless I misread something.

Liz wrote:

Preserving the basic nature of the drow is way more important than concerns about certain builds being inconvenient or impossible under a +2 ECL.

Also, ECL prevents this. Drow cannot be mechanically equal to any other race due to how gimped the ECL makes them. So that, actually, makes them not live up to their basic nature.

What Naiv said pretty much sums up my opinion on it as well.

But they can be mechanically equal. Just not identical, which is what people seem to be clamoring for.

If they can be mechanically equal explain to me why a Drow cannot be a 12 fighter/16 wm/2 rogue. Or a 30 Wiz/Sorc. Or a 24 cleric/4 fighter/2 Rogue. Or any other build any other non-ECL race can get. Mind you, before you mention stats (on the WM):
Human
26 13 12 8 13 8 (gross powerbuilder version)
Drow
26 13 12 9 14 10

As you can see, the Drow gets a whole +1 to WIS and +2 CHA in order to meet the same stats as the Human build (and to get the same skillpoints, 144). Of course, then you have to account for the fact that Drow also get -AB and -1 feat AND -Evasion on that build. Oh and -2 max skill ranks.

The wizard build looses a bonus wizard feat and Hellball access AND the 2 max skill ranks. Stats fair a bit better:
Human
10 14 14 8 26 8
Drow
10 16 12 8 28 10 (unless you don't want 28 INT in which case things are even)

24 cleric/4 fighter/2 Rogue:
Human
14 8 10 20 14 18
Drow
14 10 8 20 16 20

Let's see here now. The stats are a little better but let's take a look:
Dex is worthless to a cleric save that it makes potioning easier (not a huge deal as I have found on my cleric). The -CON has to be offset, so it's a good thing the +CHA is there so we end up the same. Oh and the +INT is nice because it makes it so you have the same number of skillpoints again.

But oh wait, what's this? The Drow is not immune to Greater Dispelling? Ouch. And it looses AB as well as an epic feat? Ah yes, and let's not forget the fact that they can't max their skill ranks like a non-ECL race.

Drow are not mechanically equal. And before you bring in SR, it's hardly worth it. The only thing that made it valuable is when we made it immune to Mord's. Drow would need more SR to make it effective given mages stack Spell Pen feats.

All you're doing is proving my point. You want them to be identical to other races, not equal. They're already equal, just different. -Unique-.

I'm going to have to agree with Liz here.

If by "equal and different" you mean "severely crippled versions of the same builds 30 level characters use", then yes. You're absolutely correct.

"Severely crippled" is so filled with bias. I think people are willfully underselling the drow race to make a proposed change look like a necessity.

Actually you are blatantly ignoring the facts that I presented in my post. I listed the ways in which a drow build is inferior to a build of a non-ECL race. The fact that you are ignoring it speaks volumes.

Stay on target now, guys.

I'm not necessarily for removing/lowering the ECL(even so, I'd like to see the other adjustments made first before we try that), but let's entertain it for a moment. It doesn't work in PnP as we have it set up on our server, this is true. Ours is essentially a level cap. If we were to remove ECL, would/should we then put in an actual way to do it right? Meaning, Drow would bet harder to level, because they would be treated as 2 levels higher than they actually are for the purpose of gaining experience. That would be the change and the required downside to removing it, and it's not something I really have that much insight on, as my own drow has been maxed for years now. But it's something to think about, especially for us that have max ones. The fear is, I suppose, that leveling on Amia is so easy where it wouldn't matter and Drow reach 30 with little more effort than another race. The opposite side of that coin is that that is not in fact the case, and with true Level Adjustment, it becomes such a slog no one bothers with it. It's been forever since I've leveled a character, but I don't remember their being that much difference in the XP you receive from a kill between 2 levels, so it might have to be cranked up a bit if we wanted our level-cap-less level adjustment to have real weight.

ECL already has the effect of making drow slower to level as ECL effectively acts like actual blank levels (with none of the upsides of acual levels), so not only is it slower and more work to level currently it still also caps out at 28. Even if you like the ECL capping the race at 28, currently it also includes a slower progression as well as that.

Dark Immolation wrote:

The fear is, I suppose, that leveling on Amia is so easy where it wouldn't matter and Drow reach 30 with little more effort than another race. The opposite side of that coin is that that is not in fact the case, and with true Level Adjustment, it becomes such a slog no one bothers with it.

I imagine we'd see a lot of DC's dumped into drow PCs to get past this quickly, especially now that DC levels are cheaper.

I'd rather find a way to let drow have access to all the feats with out removing the ECL. That or allow players some sort of a choice, for example you can play a drow with all the bonuses and detriments drow currently have or play a drow with out the ECL limit but also with only the same bonuses and detriments of normal elves.

msheeler wrote:

I'd rather find a way to let drow have access to all the feats with out removing the ECL. That or allow players some sort of a choice, for example you can play a drow with all the bonuses and detriments drow currently have or play a drow with out the ECL limit but also with only the same bonuses and detriments of normal elves.

Man, I really hate the -2 CON my elf gets and really would like the extra feat humans get at level 1.

Maybe we should just make every race a human.

If you dont mind my asking what is your "defence" of the ECL? What in your mind makes a level cap more favourable than rebalancing? ECL is a rather badly implemented mechanic frankly, even Bioware realized it and tried to move away from it in the NWN expansions.

There is also the fact that its imlpementation on NWN servers as a way to deal with subraces was (while logical based on the name) never really the same as how Bioware used it, which was more as an easy tool to balance class difference in power at various stages in leveling.

DerkDerkistan wrote:

Man, I really hate the -2 CON my elf gets and really would like the extra feat humans get at level 1.

Maybe we should just make every race a human.

I've got a better idea! Let's give your elf Circle Kick as a free feat and add a +2 ECL on it.

I'm trying to keep the conversation on the level, actually. Giving drow one level may not make a humongous difference, but giving them two gives them way too much compared to other races. And yes, I know the current argument is "but let's take away their bonuses for the two levels". That's not a good argument, though. We should not be striving toward homogenization. We should be embracing what it is that makes each race unique. Drow have a leg up on nearly every other race in that regard.

The best thing to do right now is give them Hellball, Winterwight, Wildshape IV, and Shadowfiend scaling. Even throw in an easier XP gain, because they do already gain XP slower. I was talking with someone else and the idea that they should be made immune to Darkness so they can properly use their spell came up. That's also a good idea.

After that, things should be reevaluated. But anything more is just too much of a swing the other direction. Drow Spell Resistance is a hell of a lot better than people are pretending it is. Three stats having +2 is also good, no matter whether it's only charisma. Just because you can't make your standard, cookie-cutter builds doesn't mean you can't make very good builds at all.

To echo Liz from earlier, we're here for the RP. Embrace what it is that makes drow different. Don't rely on "But I need my 24-4-2 build!"

slkNihilus wrote:

I've got a better idea! Let's give your elf Circle Kick as a free feat and add a +2 ECL on it.

Are you seriously comparing drow bonuses to Circle Kick?

DerkDerkistan wrote:

To echo Liz from earlier, we're here for the RP. Embrace what it is that makes drow different. Don't rely on "But I need my 24-4-2 build!"

Omg this.

DerkDerkistan wrote:

We should not be striving toward homogenization. We should be embracing what it is that makes each race unique.

And OMG this.

^^ This, even if part of what makes a race unique is that it doesn't have as wide a range of build options as some players might wish. Supreme flexibility in build options is a hallmark trait of humans, not drow. If drow don't make for awesome STR fighters or whatever, then *good*. Being able to achieve a 24/4/2 build is way less important than being able to portray drow as they are meant to be portrayed.

Racial traits are there for that, and that is a large part of their value. ECL is not lore reflective, it doesnt restrict builds to be more lore accurate, all that it does is currently break some class' abilites by making them completely unreachable even for lore accurate and sensible choices, palemaster springs to mind notably.

ECL level cap has nothing to do with portraying drow properly from either a mechanics or lore standpoint.

Two conversations going on here, keeping drow lore reflective and balancing them. Once again (and I realize I am repeating myself) that Is why I support a single ECL drop, no racial stat or feat changes and the option of increased light/surface penalties to balance if needed. It maintains lore accuracy on spell resistance and their stats, while fixing the issues the plus 2 ecl causes (which I believe is not the case with plus 1) and is of minimal overall impact to implement compared to most other options.

It's kind of the same thing, inasmuch as being capped at lvl 28 restricts a lot of build flexibility.

But be that as it may, I'm totally sympathetic to the idea that a drow's bonuses aren't worth +2 ECL. Alls I'm sayin' is, *if* the bonuses are worth +2 ECL, then tough luck, you're stuck, drow players. That's a super significant "if," though. It's perfectly plausible to me that drow racial bonuses are only worth +1 ECL. I don't hold myself to be enough of a balance master to competently comment on the matter.

True enough Liz I think that is a very fair stance. Personally from a pure mechanics stand point I think NWN ECL is poorly done and so am for the removing and lessening of it where ever possible in favour of other means.

From my own experience Drow while not weak currently often trend behind the curve. The combination of several restrictive factors make leveling legitimately more of a pain as well, so its a long road to few gains. I have had a far easier time both building and actually leveling non-drow, especially since it is easier to balance a build concept with the viability of it in combat.

I dont think rebalancing the racial bonuses will have any effect even remotely approximating homogenisation. The sheer cultural distinctiveness of drow prevents that. Drow arent special because they have SR and some fool's gold stat bonuses. They are special because they are an outright evil civilisation where murder is almost socially acceptable and treachery is a daily fact of life. And because they live in caves.

If you are fine with them as they are, great. I was too, though I acknowledged it was not balanced. But you can see that so many players would like a change and I think we're better off risking this imagined "homogenisation" for their sake. I can understand the argument against simply lowering the ECL because it does affect the playerbase at large if they get imbalanced. But rebalancing for ECL+0 leaves no risk of that and it seems a few drow players at least can get behind it.

Liz wrote:

Being able to achieve a 24/4/2 build is way less important than being able to portray drow as they are meant to be portrayed.

You are failing to keep in mind that ECL does not do this in DnD. ECL doesn't mean you have less total levels, LA does. Drow have ECL which means it's slower to level them, but they have the same max levels as a human or elf. So, in essence, on Amia you cannot portray drow correctly because they (somehow) cannot be as skilled as another race.

You keep saying that Naivatkal but it's wholly incomparable, because in the vast majority of P&P games you're not expected to "max out" and stay there. If you were playing a high level campaign that went to average party level of 20, chances are your drow and other level adjusted PCs would be at 18. And then either stop gaining exp, end the campaign or everyone would progress into epic levels (which can go on forever and ever). Effectively it's the same as it is in NWN. Sure, in theory you could just give the drow more exp, but originally when they designed it in P&P they honestly believed that level adjustment should work as it does in NWN.

But it doesn't matter because it's still lame, to the point where WotC (or whoever was in charge at that stage) started releasing supplements that offered an alternative to level adjustment.

I disagree because my brain can't fathom why one race cannot be as skillful as another, especially a race geared towards war. I don't agree with ECL on any race, because it's a ridiculous gimping of them that doesn't make sense. +1 races don't have it near as bad as +2 races, but it still comes down to being unable to explain why they can't get all the max skill ranks and spells and feats and AB and such that a non-ECL race can.

DerkDerkistan wrote:

Are you seriously comparing drow bonuses to Circle Kick?

That was just a joke.

For one, Naiv is right that in D&D drow do not "work" the same as they do on Amia. They require more experience to level up, but have no "maximum level cap". So, if you're arguing that drow should be played as intended, then you're actually in favor of removing the ECL. Besides, as serbiris said, people who play drow play them because of the lore not because they're mechanically good (God knows no drow player picked the subrace because they thought they'd be able to make the best build ever. I hope).

Secondly, the bonuses they do get might seem good. I mean +2 in three different stats? Wow! 39 SR? Better than anyone but monks can get! The truth is that those bonuses are very deceptive and the penalties they get in return are far, far more harsh than any other subrace.

What build can effectively use Dex, Int and Cha? Virtually none. At most, you'll be lucky if your build can benefit from 2 of the 3. And the -2 Con will hurt every build out there. Spell Resistance is, again, massively overrated. In PvP it's basically worthless and in PvE it's useful in all of two, maybe three areas. And for those bonuses, they get the following penalties: -1 AB, -1 saves, -2 HD worth of HP, -1 feat, -2 to the skills you'll be using, inability to access Hellball or the Winterwight.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: mechanically they are crippled compared to most any other subrace. The bonuses they receive are, as serbiris put it, fool's gold and in no way even begin to compensate for the unreasonable penalties they're saddled with.

Naivatkal wrote:

I disagree because my brain can't fathom why one race cannot be as skillful as another, especially a race geared towards war. I don't agree with ECL on any race, because it's a ridiculous gimping of them that doesn't make sense. +1 races don't have it near as bad as +2 races, but it still comes down to being unable to explain why they can't get all the max skill ranks and spells and feats and AB and such that a non-ECL race can.

Well we actually agree, but your point seems to be that level adjustment is OK in P&P, but it's actually pretty bad even there. Let alone here where there is a max level that PCs are expected to sit at. And when the P&P designers saw how terrible it was, they gave options to fix it. The same thing should be done here. They never once said to just drop level adjustment and leave the powers where they are - they threw in the "Lesser drow" variant (yeah, so it's technically "in the lore"), and gave options where you could spend levels to get the other features (in a way that slightly mitigated the hefty drawbacks).

slkNihilus wrote:

DerkDerkistan wrote:

Are you seriously comparing drow bonuses to Circle Kick?

That was just a joke.

For one, Naiv is right that in D&D drow do not "work" the same as they do on Amia. They require more experience to level up, but have no "maximum level cap". So, if you're arguing that drow should be played as intended, then you're actually in favor of removing the ECL. Besides, as serbiris said, people who play drow play them because of the lore not because they're mechanically good (God knows no drow player picked the subrace because they thought they'd be able to make the best build ever. I hope).

Secondly, the bonuses they do get might seem good. I mean +2 in three different stats? Wow! 39 SR? Better than anyone but monks can get! The truth is that those bonuses are very deceptive and the penalties they get in return are far, far more harsh than any other subrace.

What build can effectively use Dex, Int and Cha? Virtually none. At most, you'll be lucky if your build can benefit from 2 of the 3. And the -2 Con will hurt every build out there. Spell Resistance is, again, massively overrated. In PvP it's basically worthless and in PvE it's useful in all of two, maybe three areas. And for those bonuses, they get the following penalties: -1 AB, -1 saves, -2 HD worth of HP, -1 feat, -2 to the skills you'll be using, inability to access Hellball or the Winterwight.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: mechanically they are crippled compared to most any other subrace. The bonuses they receive are, as serbiris put it, fool's gold and in no way even begin to compensate for the unreasonable penalties they're saddled with.

I'd definitely disagree with drow's SR being worthless in PvP, especially now that it's irreducible. I've seen PvP won by drow because of the SR, where enemy casters just couldn't reliably effect their opponent enough to win. It's an absolute nightmare to go up against with your typical spellblade builds, as well as other splash builds, such as the (in)famous 23/1/6 Sorc/Ranger/SD build. With that one, you have to roll a minimum 16 on your spell penetration roll to have any effect, AKA a 75% chance that any spell that requires SR does nothing at all. You can mitigate this with one of the spell penetration items, but you have to take a gear slot for it, and with such a build, you've only managed to up your penetration percentage to 35%. That's not something you want to rely on.

Even with a regular 2 levels splashed caster, you only get a 50% chance, or 60% with spell penetration. Again, those are not the greatest odds.

For PvM, it's still strong because a lot of mobs don't have maxed CL, and scripted spells use bare minimum, such as the guantlet.

As for builds using all the stats, true, not all of them can. A standard drow STR WM (20/7/1) is going to be 3 AB behind a regular WM (12/16/2), though the SR means a lot to them since WMs usually have bad resistance to hostile magic. Then again, builds like the 26/1/1 Sorc/Ranger/TumbleClass work very well with drow. I find a lot of caster types do. Just the same, Aasimar, despite having some great stat bonuses, also wouldn't make a good WM.

I wouldn't discount how powerful the SR can be. There are ways around it and it won't affect most melee characters, but a caster is likely going to run into some trouble. Same with a caster cleric (though EQ ignores SR, so they have a powerful option).

Naivatkal wrote:

Liz wrote:

Being able to achieve a 24/4/2 build is way less important than being able to portray drow as they are meant to be portrayed.

You are failing to keep in mind that ECL does not do this in DnD. ECL doesn't mean you have less total levels, LA does. Drow have ECL which means it's slower to level them, but they have the same max levels as a human or elf. So, in essence, on Amia you cannot portray drow correctly because they (somehow) cannot be as skilled as another race.

I'm not failing to keep it in mind, I just don't see that it's relevant. So the early dev team named Amia's race-balancing mechanic ECL when they should have named it Level Adjustment. Who cares? We're not playing D&D anyway, we're playing a similar but different game, where we have to try to plug D&D concepts and lore into a system that's almost but not quite designed for it.

I'm confused.. How is 39 SR that can't be debuffed by mords (news to me!) not amazing?

dc 39 vs CL + 1d20

So.. if a lvl 30 wizard wants to cast a spell at a Drow, he has a FORTY FIVE PERCENT chance to do nothing at all. If he invested in the largely bad Spell Pen feats, he still has a fifteen percent chance for do nothing at all. Now let's keep in mind there are not many CL 30s out there. Most of the elves i think are 24. So now a drow has a SEVENTY FIVE percent chance to ignore them. Wiz/SD? seventy five.

If this is not amazing, i would really like to know how. Maybe my math is wrong?

It appears that I was incorrect about LA and ECL: Neither affect max level. So we are doing the system entirely wrong.

So Liz, while I admire you trying ot be pedantic to make a point, that is still incorrect information. All ECL subraces on Amia are gimped. And yes, we are playing DnD. Everything in the Forgotten Realms is the DnD system.

Xenos wrote:

largely bad Spell Pen feats

Except against anything with SR, right? >_>

Naivatkal wrote:

It appears that I was incorrect about LA and ECL: Neither affect max level. So we are doing the system entirely wrong.

DnD was also not intended to be played at the max level, so the system we have in places makes the best of that while letting us fill our 'end game' mmo type needs.

Naivatkal wrote:

Xenos wrote:

largely bad Spell Pen feats

Except against anything with SR, right? >_>

The Spell Pen feats are good against one thing, the Drow. SR Monks still have so much SR i can't touch them. We're talking two feats here and one epic. Thats pretty heavy investment just to reduce the chance of drow SR eating your spells by thirty percent. Can you really say that a three feat combo that is only useful in one place, PvP with Drow, is all that great?

If there is something Drow simply can not reach at all, like hellball, then changes maybe should be made to resolve that.

The fact that the drow's SR is useful against a handfull of builds doesn't make it good. For one it's utterly useless against anything other than casters. Secondly, even a 28th level caster has a 50% chance to beat a max level drow's SR, with a bonus 10% for each spell penetration feat. Thirdly, there are spells that ignore SR.

Also, on the topic of monk's SR: since a high level monk can get their SR up to ~50, that means they're utterly broken, right? I mean any caster build will only have a 5-20% chance to beat it, ever.

Let's face it: SR is useful against a few builds, at the most. Also, given that casters are typically the strongest classes on the server, it's like I said before: I won't cry them a river, given there's precisely one subrace and one class that give them any kind of trouble (allegedly).

This really isn't that important.

slkNihilus wrote:

given that casters are typically the strongest classes on the server

This was true, 2005. It is faaar faaar from true now though when immunities and hardcounters has been powercreeped into server and all the things good about mages got nerfed. You don't need to cry them a river, just laugh at them instead because thats where they're at.

Xenos wrote:

The Spell Pen feats are good against one thing, the Drow.

And regular monks. And clerics (Spell Resistance spell is awesome). And insurance against Arcane Defiance.

hideaway wrote:

This really isn't that important.

That's not beneficial to the discussion, please refrain from posting unless you are going to contribute to the discussion in some way.

Terra_777 wrote:

This was true, 2005. It is faaar faaar from true now though when immunities and hardcounters has been powercreeped into server and all the things good about mages got nerfed. You don't need to cry them a river, just laugh at them instead because thats where they're at.

No, I'm fairly sure it's still the reality of today. Yes, some of their tools have been severely nerfed: Greater Sanctuary, Time Stop, Bigby's Forceful, IGMS. But let's all just admit those spells were broken from the word go. Spellcasters still have all the tools they could ever need or want.

But let's get back on the topic of drow and their ECL. If you want to discuss changes to casters, open a new thread.

hideaway wrote:

This really isn't that important.

That's not beneficial to the discussion, please refrain from posting unless you are going to contribute to the discussion in some way.[/quote]

Sure it is. People are arguing in here like its a battle for civil rights. If the ecl +2 is whats keeping you from playing a drow, then don't play them. Also Nait you're a developer not a forum moderator or staff with perview over what people say here, so stop acting like you are.

[Old Discussion] Drow ECL

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