AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

Why is the cart / boat system so very dumb?

I suppose there may be individual IC reasons for these things that I don't know about, but:

The headquarters of Amia Cart Services (at the Nexus Falls) has no carts leading to it.
Captain Guston refuses to take people to Wharftown.
The boat across the bay from Kampo's to the Salandran Temple quit running.

These things all seem pretty lame to me.

How about we fix them?

(P.S.: I am sympathetic to the argument that there should be no cart / boat system, and we should all have to walk everywhere. This argument belongs in another thread.

If we're going to have a transport system, it should be a non-dumb transport system.)

Yeaaaaaah, those were all removed due to various plot things that I'm not entirely privy to share (And don't remember all the details myself >.>).

But, there used to be a cart to the nexus falls (which was removed sometime last year). Another captain will take you to Wharftown, most easily reached by going to cordor south, then going the next dock over. And the boat from the salandran temple was replaced by the boat to Kohlingen due to a plot sometime last year.

I'd say make an IC initiative to fix them, because making updates like this on the fly because they're minorly inconvenient is just something we don't do. They were changed due to plot and will need to be changed the same way.

If you can get things rolling, I would be more than happy to hook things up in the toolset for it and/or poke around our sneakret forums about it, but until something happens IC, our hands are tied!

EDIT: Totally making this clear: Yep I agree there's some awkward old gaps in the cart/transport system and support fixing them. Just saying that a lot of the changes happened due to some plots and'll need an initiative to fix!

I usually love the "fix it IC" response, really, but I'm not sure it's appropriate here. The boats and carts are run by NPCs who are apparently not stupid, who make their living at transporting people and stuff to places where people want people and stuff transported to. They would easily recognize an unfilled demand and leap at the chance to make money filling it, right?

Also, petitioning teamsters and sailors to change their routes is just the silliest thing to expect PCs to blow their time on, seriously.

Raua wrote:

I'd say make an IC initiative to fix them, because making updates like this on the fly because they're minorly inconvenient is just something we don't do. They were changed due to plot and will need to be changed the same way.

This is a bit excessive, I mean, honestly.

What do you want really, Mr. Cart Driver? A new cart? Yeah, here's 1,000 gold to buy the nicest 2 wheel cart in the land, it even has spring shocks. There you go. Don't put up a box demanding 12 million gold, 50 golem parts, a clockwork giant dire hamster, and 500 ironwood planks for a cart - I've been mugged enough already.

And convincing a man to land at a town with a dock he's already passing by 12 times a day already seems... needless.

I mean, sure for giant, consequential changes ask for giant consequential gestures. But you're convincing people who are in it for the money to take logical actions anyone wanting more money would take naturally. It's like if Rashad wasn't stocking swords for some reason and someone came up to him and asked him for a sword, then suggested he start stocking them to perhaps sell them only to get: "I don't know, I'm just not sure they'd sell at all."

It's not natural or logical at all.

About the Carts. I just want the "being kicked out" script to be removed. Because first, a ten people party being kicked out makes no sense. And second, and I think it's the most important thing, it gets -REALLY- -REALLY- -VERY REALLY- boring after the 1000th time! And I am not exaggerating the number of times it happened to me...

Or make it cooler and more interesting. If everyone in the cart is above x level than you get tossed into some orcs, where they're looting another cart. Beat them off in time and claim the treasure, or run while they're distracted. Something like the old pirate attack chance, something that will make a good story to get rp going.

MightNMagic wrote:

Raua wrote:

I'd say make an IC initiative to fix them, because making updates like this on the fly because they're minorly inconvenient is just something we don't do. They were changed due to plot and will need to be changed the same way.

This is a bit excessive, I mean, honestly.

What do you want really, Mr. Cart Driver? A new cart? Yeah, here's 1,000 gold to buy the nicest 2 wheel cart in the land, it even has spring shocks. There you go. Don't put up a box demanding 12 million gold, 50 golem parts, a clockwork giant dire hamster, and 500 ironwood planks for a cart - I've been mugged enough already.

And convincing a man to land at a town with a dock he's already passing by 12 times a day already seems... needless.

I mean, sure for giant, consequential changes ask for giant consequential gestures. But you're convincing people who are in it for the money to take logical actions anyone wanting more money would take naturally. It's like if Rashad wasn't stocking swords for some reason and someone came up to him and asked him for a sword, then suggested he start stocking them to perhaps sell them only to get: "I don't know, I'm just not sure they'd sell at all."

It's not natural or logical at all.

I think this is a case where I agree with the situation here.

Yah. Asking PCs to coordinate shipping lanes is kind of just barely this side of asking them to burn IC time on filling potholes and replacing worn-out planks on the Minmir bridge.

Raua wrote:

I'd say make an IC initiative to fix them

Okay. viewtopic.php?f=3&t=84023

Please fix.

if it was that simple to RP make a change, then I fear the capacity to change the server is devalued to who can write the best story.

Liz wrote:

I usually love the "fix it IC" response, really, but I'm not sure it's appropriate here. The boats and carts are run by NPCs who are apparently not stupid, who make their living at transporting people and stuff to places where people want people and stuff transported to. They would easily recognize an unfilled demand and leap at the chance to make money filling it, right?

Also, petitioning teamsters and sailors to change their routes is just the silliest thing to expect PCs to blow their time on, seriously.

Well..Uhm is gone so there is no point to run the cart service. The Salandrans didn't want a ship between their temple and Kampo's so now that ship goes to Kohlingen. I'm not sure why the rafter is gone from between the Nexus Falls.

As for Guston...I doubt that he has a problem with Warftown anymore. In fact several DMs said that it should have been fixed since the end of the Amnish/Reyes event.

The same standards that apply to one should apply to all. To fix something IC it should be handled IC.

It takes some work to just 'add in' a new station in game the least you could do is offer some roleplay / work towards what you want aside from a single forum post.

If they make an exception for one then suddenly it's okay for every one to just say they did something and skip the hard parts.

I currently have plans to pursue roleplay that will deal with such a system but I've not had much luck with prior concerns and catching a dm ready and willing to do that simple interactions needed.

For now something a bit more substantial has been asked for. If there re no qualms about it I'll happily put in te work for such changes to be made. If I may request a dm to help me see to it such changes can be made wih some rp I would very much appreciate it. Just send me a pm or a poke on skype and I would be more than happy to try to work with your time slots.

Lutra wrote:

Well..Uhm is gone so there is no point to run the cart service.

There should be a cart from the Falls to Kampo's. (There should have been, even when the Uhm cart was still there.)

Honestly, the Salandran temple is the biggest offender. It's just so stupidly annoying a trip to take that it's basically forcing everyone who goes there even semi-regularly to bind to the portal node. And that defeats the purpose of removing the raft entirely.

DerkDerkistan wrote:

Honestly, the Salandran temple is the biggest offender. It's just so stupidly annoying a trip to take that it's basically forcing everyone who goes there even semi-regularly to bind to the portal node. And that defeats the purpose of removing the raft entirely.

Yeah I basically don't go there ever now, it's so far out of my way. Used to be a good spot for incidental RP when the server is quiet (which is often), not so much anymore.

I've found there to be quite a bit of Salandran grounds RP, my character is there fairly often, and I know of several others who frequent the place as well. I'm not sure of the IC reason the ferry to there from Kampo's was removed, but for emergency situations, it sure was convenient.

Is it a problem to sail to Kohlingen and then go 1 location from Kohlingen to catch cart for Salandran?

It is for people/races which are banned from Kohlingen. The carts are inside the gate. Nothing is accessible from the docks without entering the city proper.

The Salandran temple is supposed to be neutral and open to everyone. Currently the only way for certain PCs to get there is to go to Kampos or take the lamp to Nexus Falls, run through the areas of Minmir Bridge, Tristam's Path, Benwick Graveyard and to the Salandran Grounds... which also means moving past NPC Silver Dragon guards. -- And yes, I'm speaking from personal experience. --

Anatida wrote:

It is for people/races which are banned from Kohlingen. The carts are inside the gate. Nothing is accessible from the docks without entering the city proper.

The Salandran temple is supposed to be neutral and open to everyone. Currently the only way for certain PCs to get there is to go to Kampos or take the lamp to Nexus Falls, run through the areas of Minmir Bridge, Tristam's Path, Benwick Graveyard and to the Salandran Grounds... which also means moving past NPC Silver Dragon guards. -- And yes, I'm speaking from personal experience. --

Yes. As a matter of fact it's serious enough problem that my drow has been working for months to get the Shrine to have either it's own hospital or have a Salandran outpost. Unfortunately, there was a recent set back to this intuitive, heh.

Remember the portal crystal there is alignment restricted.

So... er... apologies if I've needed DM oversight for being invis and running past those guards.

I have no qualms with adding a cart to the Salandrans from Kampos. It looks like there's an IC need, there can easily be an IC initiative to do it. But since the old ones got removed, there needs to be something that goes into getting it to run again. I'm opposed to the idea of just "Loldoingit" because it's inconvenient, but not to the concept in general. I think it's more than fair to ask players to sacrifice a little bit of their time for a convenience. Area work is hard, and very, very tedious at times.

Again, I am not opposed to making improvements to the cart system, I am just leery about doing it without a real IC reason for the routes to exist. when they were removed for an IC reason, they should have one to return. I'm sorry if you think that's unreasonable, but it remains my stance.

And even then, it remains to the DMs of those areas to approve of the changes. You should ask them if they can support it.

I do not disagree with Raua's stance that there should be IC efforts. My post was only in answer to the question "Is it a problem to sail to Kohlingen and then...".

I knew the boat from Kampos was removed for plot reasons. The above post was the first I had heard that it was the Salandran's desire to not have one. I thought it was because the Amnish fleet would have been blocking the ship route, and/or it would have been too dangerous.

As Maze posted, we have been making IC efforts to some ends. Our solution was just different than setting up a travel route. :wink:

*Creepily watches over the shrine's goings on more intently...*

Yay! Initiatives!

Nalkanar wrote:

Is it a problem to sail to Kohlingen and then go 1 location from Kohlingen to catch cart for Salandran?

Needlessly complex when a ferry literally goes past it every time they make a kohl trip. Wasted money. Wasted business. Why?

Last edited by Nalkanar on Wed, Oct 14 2015, 19:35 PM, edited 1 time in total.

Anatida wrote:

...

Thx, did not occur to me.

TormakSaber wrote:

Nalkanar wrote:

Is it a problem to sail to Kohlingen and then go 1 location from Kohlingen to catch cart for Salandran?

Needlessly complex when a ferry literally goes past it every time they make a kohl trip. Wasted money. Wasted business. Why?

Goes past it? I understood it, that the ferry in Kohlingen is some sort of local branch that goes only between Kohlingen and Salandran (let's say for safety reasons). And no other route goes through this track right now, or does it? I dont count boats going around the coast, because there might be a reason why docking in Salandran is impossible.

EDIT: just to make it clear - I am not against the idea of making better cart/ship connections. I just think that it makes sense IC-ly. Contrary to what have been said here.

I was told very explicitly by the staff involved that the routes were changed for entirely OOC reasons rather than logical IC ones. The argument falls apart with that in mind.

Bear in mind that the way this transit network has been constructed ICly - it is PRIMARILY goods transport, it is simply that passenger transport happens to be more relevant to players. I would say the argument is less "I'm lazy, make my life easy" and more "The carts/boats are going there anyway (the onus would be on disproving this, eg: why wouldn't the Salandrans need raw materials or manufactured goods transported from more points than Kohl?), might as well represent the carts IG so we can use them".

Nalkanar wrote:

Anatida wrote:

...

Thx, did not occur to me.

TormakSaber wrote:

Nalkanar wrote:

Is it a problem to sail to Kohlingen and then go 1 location from Kohlingen to catch cart for Salandran?

Needlessly complex when a ferry literally goes past it every time they make a kohl trip. Wasted money. Wasted business. Why?

Goes past it? I understood it, that the ferry in Kohlingen is some sort of local branch that goes only between Kohlingen and Salandran (let's say for safety reasons). And no other route goes through this track right now, or does it? I dont count boats going around the coast, because there might be a reason why docking in Salandran is impossible.

EDIT: just to make it clear - I am not against the idea of making better cart/ship connections. I just think that it makes sense IC-ly. Contrary to what have been said here.

A boat form Kampos to Kohl, by simple line drawing, has to go by Benwick Hollow. refusing ot stop there and then running a line just between Kohl/Benwick is wasted money, time, and a bad business venture all around. Why would Kampos stop going to Salandra's Temple? They're famously the most neutral, helpful, peaceful spot on the entire island. Docking can't be impossible simply because there's docks and a ferry there - that means docking must inherently be possible.

I'm starting to get the view that NPCs are not like logical people. That they don't have basic profit motive. Either that or Captain Guston is an idiot and there's not one simple hillbilly farmer with a donkey and cart who cannot realize that charging rich adventurers 50 gp a pop is a lot more profitable than selling turnips.

I'm arriving at this conclusion because I've been told copy/pasting NPCs and clicking "Save" is hard.

Well Mr. Cart Driver, you're going to have to stick up someone else for that 12 million gp and clockwork dire space hamster, I've already rebuilt a library and Okappa's without much fanfare about it. And judging by the bookstore and foodmart in West Cordor, you'll be waiting awhile.

MightNMagic wrote:

I'm arriving at this conclusion because I've been told copy/pasting NPCs and clicking "Save" is hard.

It's not hard, and that's not what Making new routes is, it involves a lot of scripting, conversation editing, variable changes, triggers. I'd appreciate it if you didn't devalue the work that our Devs do for the server simply because you aren't getting what you wanted right away. Regardless, the ease of the project has no weight on the issue of doing something that doesn't make IC sense. Demonstrated very clearly here,

Lutra wrote:

The Salandrans didn't want a ship between their temple and Kampo's so now that ship goes to Kohlingen.

Adding a stop there would naturally require that the NPCs be convinced they need to have the route. Arbitrarily adding it because enough loud people whined about it spits in the face of what this server is about. A responsive environment. An environment that responds to what the characters do. Not the players OOCly getting huffy something is the way they don't like it.

I can see where you're coming from if you're discoruaged, and it's easy to think "Oh, the devs just don't do anything" No, it's a result of a serious communication deficit we have. I've actually personally asked about Okappas getting rebuilt because of the state of the chest. But, this thread isn't the place to discuss that. This one is.

It's attitudes like that that will make a Dev disinclined to do anything for you, Please refrain from treating us like we're lazy asshats. It's discouraging, and discouraged devs means nothing gets done. Everyone loses.

Normally, I would apologize for bluntness, but it's warranted here, unfortunately. Understand I want to help, but there are certain protocols we follow. And right now I remain unconvinced this follows it. And it's at the discretion of those higher up than myself to approve or disapprove. (Specifically the DM that runs those areas)

Liz wrote:

Lutra wrote:

Well..Uhm is gone so there is no point to run the cart service.

There should be a cart from the Falls to Kampo's. (There should have been, even when the Uhm cart was still there.)

There was the raft service instead of cart service if you remember

Raua wrote:

MightNMagic wrote:

I'm arriving at this conclusion because I've been told copy/pasting NPCs and clicking "Save" is hard.

It's not hard, and that's not what Making new routes is, it involves a lot of scripting, conversation editing, variable changes, triggers. I'd appreciate it if you didn't devalue the work that our Devs do for the server simply because you aren't getting what you wanted right away. Regardless, the ease of the project has no weight on the issue of doing something that doesn't make IC sense. Demonstrated very clearly here,

Lutra wrote:

The Salandrans didn't want a ship between their temple and Kampo's so now that ship goes to Kohlingen.

Adding a stop there would naturally require that the NPCs be convinced they need to have the route. Arbitrarily adding it because enough loud people whined about it spits in the face of what this server is about. A responsive environment. An environment that responds to what the characters do. Not the players OOCly getting huffy something is the way they don't like it.

I can see where you're coming from if you're discoruaged, and it's easy to think "Oh, the devs just don't do anything" No, it's a result of a serious communication deficit we have. I've actually personally asked about Okappas getting rebuilt because of the state of the chest. But, this thread isn't the place to discuss that. This one is.

It's attitudes like that that will make a Dev disinclined to do anything for you, Please refrain from treating us like we're lazy asshats. It's discouraging, and discouraged devs means nothing gets done. Everyone loses.

Normally, I would apologize for bluntness, but it's warranted here, unfortunately. Understand I want to help, but there are certain protocols we follow. And right now I remain unconvinced this follows it. And it's at the discretion of those higher up than myself to approve or disapprove. (Specifically the DM that runs those areas)

NinjaClarinet wrote:

I was told very explicitly by the staff involved that the routes were changed for entirely OOC reasons rather than logical IC ones. The argument falls apart with that in mind.

Why should we have to convince an NPC away from behavior that was not IC to begin with???

To my knowledge it was IC. The Salandrans refused to have a boat docking at their temple after the war. I remember that we even asked them if the ferry route should go back to as it once was and they said no.

Aside from Guston avoiding Warftown and the end of the raft service between Kampo's and the Nexus falls, I don't see anything that would be beyond IC logic.

Addition! Even the end of the raft service make sense due to the nature of the Minmir bridge. When Yaston rebuilt it there was no other bridge model so it is a low hanging bridge and a raft with passengers may have hard time going past that one!

Is there really any value to RPing out *goes around asking cart and/or raft drivers to stop at the Salandran temple*? The whole idea that everything has to be an IC initiative is preposterous. The world can change without PC input, especially PC input that is 5 minutes of effort and the DM who listens to the proposal can probably better spend their time doing -fun- things.

You want to build towers around some tree that's special to you and your peeps? Sure, PC initiative. Make your players plan and build that up.

You want to have carts and rafts make areas on the module more accessible? Have the NPCs think for themselves. There's money in it for them. They can't be that stupid.

At this point, the dead horse is thoroughly beaten.

TormakSaber wrote:

A boat form Kampos to Kohl, by simple line drawing, has to go by Benwick Hollow. refusing ot stop there and then running a line just between Kohl/Benwick is wasted money, time, and a bad business venture all around. Why would Kampos stop going to Salandra's Temple? They're famously the most neutral, helpful, peaceful spot on the entire island. Docking can't be impossible simply because there's docks and a ferry there - that means docking must inherently be possible.

I disagree Derk and gonna do that with Tormak here. Again, aside from the cart service between Winya and Kampo's the missing routes make sense ICly. In fact, I doubt that Winya has much added value to the island's economy so the cart route there may not worth it in the eyes of the ACS?

If you were sailing in RL then you would know that stopping on a short route, such as the Sallies and Kampo's or Sallies an Kohl is a big deal and it is a pain in the ass especially with a sailboat that is full with goods and passengers. No, it is not impossible but it does not worth the money.

I would just generally remove any ship route within the Amian island aside from the one between Cordor and Kohl because the ship routes are just too short. I honestly think that Warftown is not worth the stop because there is a cart route between them and Cordor and they also have the lamp. The routes to other islands make sense though!

To use Tormak's words, that's needlessly complex. There's a line where quality of life should take precedence over real life economics. You want the module to be accessible or people simply stop going to places.

We agree on the player enjoyment part. However, you and others said that it would be beneficial for the NPCs to run those transport lines. I just made a counter-argument that it is not the case. That's all.

Quote:

There should be a cart from the Falls to Kampo's. (There should have been, even when the Uhm cart was still there.)

Seriously? I mean its that inconvenient to walk through 1 area? Wow....

I don't see an issue with either adding a boat stop or cart to Saladran Temple area. One of the biggest issues was the whole system was hodge podged together and used like 4 different scripts to do the same thing since they were wrote over a period of like 5 years, and a lot of it was cleaned up.

Guston won't go to Wharftown, another ship runs that route now.

We'll take these things into consideration. For right now, we can all portal close to, if not directly to, most of these places that people want boats and carts to. The Cordor portal system also makes use of going to areas within short walking distance of many of the places you all are talking about. Some of the areas that have been donated to and neglected (our fault) have been given to myself and another dev to work on. Please be patient and bear with us

Raua wrote:

It's attitudes like that that will make a Dev disinclined to do anything for you, Please refrain from treating us like we're lazy asshats. It's discouraging, and discouraged devs means nothing gets done. Everyone loses.

msheeler wrote:

Seriously? I mean its that inconvenient to walk through 1 area? Wow....

I'm just going to post these with each other and reply to Raua. It goes both ways, you know.

Yep, You're absolutely right! It does go both ways!

Could we perhaps look to move the red lantern on the once-Triumvir portal system from the Temple of Love and put it at the Salandran Temple?

I doubt anyone uses it now that the hub got moved to Cordor.

That one would fall under the category of player-character initiatives, I think. It's not as simple as asking rafts to stop at a set of docks on the way.

Murkoph wrote:

Could we perhaps look to move the red lantern on the once-Triumvir portal system from the Temple of Love and put it at the Salandran Temple?

I doubt anyone uses it now that the hub got moved to Cordor.

Actually it does make a measure of sense, but yes it is a bit more difficult, not impossible though

Interestingly, many of the areas mentioned and the systems used to get there i stumbled across by pure chance and during a server lull when i was OOCly bored! However, i still don't know how to get there and certainly wandering a road as a low level character is and of itself... dangerous! I often see people going to 'this place or that place' then promptly take out a portal wand and disappear! Not everyone, certainly not new players, have the luxury of a fully functioning, stocked and locked portal wand to travel to most nodes!

ICly and partly OOCly i have used the lanterns to wander and seen some far off and deserted places, but asking people ICly about the lantern and the places it visits normally ends with people not actually knowing where the portals go! Running from cart to boat and then perhaps through several areas, can be fun but ultimately time consuming if your trying to reach a place the RP is happening... and normally only works if you ICly/OOCly know where that place is anyway.

I agree, if something is ICLY removed for whatever reason, something should be done ICly to get it back but beyond petitioning on the forum ICly for an NPC group to do something about it then OOCly convincing DMs to run with it... or even players to go along with it, is perhaps a lot of work for all involved for something that perhaps draws little IC and OOC reward! If the cart system is used mostly to transport goods, i'm curious how the 'injured' people get moved to the temple, i mean if the temple and the people there in are meant to offer aid and healing to people... shouldn't they be that little more accessible to all?

As for the 'dumping' thing the carts do, yeah that is annoying, more so when its the first time you have used that route and you have no idea which was is up when you lost on a road as low level character! The road between Cordor and the Dale is fairly easy, the one from the Dale to Kampo's took a little more understanding and nervous walking! Interestingly, a third (a route i forget goes from one place to another) had some areas off of it i had never heard mentioned before and only saw because i was forced to walk the road in the wrong direction while trying to find my way out of the mess the cart dropped me in! :twisted:

... plus I doubt the devs are lazy, from what i have seen so far they work tirelessly to keep this place going! :wink:

I can respect that getting around when you are new to the server can be difficult to do given just how big of an are the maps represent. Like I previously mentioned, I also agree that we should add the boat drop off back to the Saladran Temple area, however given how the script was written that is no small fest and will involve not only the rewriting of scripts, but also NPCs work in no less than 7 areas. As a guesstimate it's in the range of 6 hours of work to get it done correctly, 6 hours of work that are hard to come byby. It's also not something that can be passed off to just anyone since it involves certain generic conversation actions and variables that are not the easiest to understand, so there are perhaps only 2 people other than myself that could do this and 1 of them doesn't do much work for the server anymore.

The other request was not something I don't agree with at all. There is simply no need to run a cart from Nexus Hills: The Falls to Benwick Hollow: The Silent Bay since there is exactly 1 area between the two of them and it does not have any spawns. It's approximately 20 tiles of walking through safe terrain - not needed.

msheeler wrote:

The other request was not something I don't agree with at all. There is simply no need to run a cart from Nexus Hills: The Falls to Benwick Hollow: The Silent Bay since there is exactly 1 area between the two of them and it does not have any spawns. It's approximately 20 tiles of walking through safe terrain - not needed.

See this i didn't know, from my point of view every road i have traveled i've ICly and OOCly been told not to leave the road for fear of something attacking me. From a new players point of view there are no sign posts saying what area is safe to wander around in and investigate things. Certainly my playing with the lanterns was seen as relatively safe as i figured you wouldn't put something in that just dropped you into a hostile area without warning!

Its all by the by though, any change is certainly a lot of work for someone, however, does the possibility for such exist? Not that i know the ins and outs of what people are wanting (certain things before my time) but telling people to RP out trying to arrange the change or addition isn't good if such a thing is unlikely to happen even if the petition, request, support or incentive ICly is found.

I have no real vested interest in it, i will merely do now what i have been doing for most of my time here so far and tag along to such places when and if the RP includes me in such! :mrgreen:

I think it makes sense to add the boat stop to the temple and intend on doing that, but it will have to wait a while as I have other things already lined up to finish first.

Add an extra lense to the Triumvir lamp for it?

We have the gnomes and the technology!

Strom wrote:

Add an extra lense to the Triumvir lamp for it?

We have the gnomes and the technology!

That is something that was created by PCs and would require their direct effort to update/modify/change.

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