Well as I said you can ignore our feedback and our priorities all you like and that's your prerogative, but I honestly don't think the old place was that ugly.
Unless someone actually begins posting specific problems and/or screenshots to help work on fixes, this thread should be locked. It's going around in circles.
If you are not actually posting specific things to improve, you are wasting our time and yours. If you are posting specific things to improve, then this clearly doesn't apply to you and I thank you for your helpful feedback.
_________________ ~Diana de Priondragas - Enigmatic druid, Arbiter, Counselor, Bear. ~Corinn Aldaine - Just a girl with a big heart... who can turn you into a newt. ~Vigdis Haldorsdottr - Walk softly and carry a big axe.
Unless someone actually begins posting specific problems and/or screenshots to help work on fixes, this thread should be locked. It's going around in circles.
If you are not actually posting specific things to improve, you are wasting our time and yours. If you are posting specific things to improve, then this clearly doesn't apply to you and I thank you for your helpful feedback.
****Now for the actual suggestions,keep in mind that i'l also be adding what i'd like to see extra, i know i'm greedy but you asked for suggestions so here gows!****
-My suggestion is rather simple, Put in more spawns and closer together, make multiple pawns at the same spots like we had before , remake those scary spots with 2-3 spawns hording you at ones -Make the area brighter, put in more natural light sources like the Gliberling caves for example. -Redo the Climb things(already working on that) -Put in something like separate monster spawns, like a bridge only spawning warriors and on the two sides only spawning archers, AKA like the Bendir Orc caves things like that make the area interesting. -Make the boss stronger maybe give him two special designed bodyguards -Add a Quest regarding the new caves and add a Cool Rp item as a reward, or a handy item for lvl 15'ish toons again to attract players and give more reason both OOC and IC to go there -Dm Event promote the place....if that makes sense
***Here's my two cents on why folks don't like it*** ***This is just my opinion and therefor not the truth take this with tons of salt***
With all due respect for your work, and i'm personally a fan of the looks of the new place Most hunting parties left for Khem, i went there with 3 different hunting parties one rp focused even!!they all left OOC raging after 5 min for Khem........., there seams to me atleast a general dislike to the new Area, be it for whatever reason folks tend to ignore it even going that far its impossible for me to find players interested in hunting there anymore and i think that's a shame as i personally like it. Even WORSE it now turned Khem into a farming place for gold , nearly every time i go there with a party lvl 30's are gathering loot there
msheeler wrote:
6. Reading through all of these posts I can not help but hear - "The old areas we predictable with spawns always in the same spot, and had a map I knew by heart. Now you have messed my plan up and I can't zip through them for gold/xp as fast as I could before and you are killing my gold/xp per hour rate."
I tend to agree with the notion that it was a good XP/GOLD farm and that it was one of the main reasons why folks went there, you removed that so folks are upset let me refrase that 90% of the players i know are upset. 10 % like me is So/So about it On the other hand i also loved the looks of the old dungeon but that's more out of sentiment to the old days. *Edit* One thing i did forget to mention is most players i went there with complained about how dark and narrow it was making it almost unplayable.
_________________ Account name's: Holydeath The Five Corners Active characters: Alandril TruebornBlake Rift
The Baphitaurs called, they want their area back...
I guess I get the argument that the area needed to be brought up to current standards, but there was an area that looked like this already over on B: The Baphitaurs have the same tileset with the descending hallways, lava flow, and all.
So, what has actually happened here is that two unique areas have now been made to look identical extremely similar and generic.
Last edited by angst360 on Fri, Oct 02 2015, 9:20 AM, edited 1 time in total.
The place already has more spawns than the old area, though. It literally is worth more gold.
Ah, for some reason it feels less , or rather it feels to spread out
angst360 wrote:
The Baphitaurs called, they want their area back...
I guess I get the argument that the area needed to be brought up to current standards, but there was an area that looked like this already over on B: The Baphitaurs have the same tileset with the descending hallways, lava flow, and all.
So, what has actually happened here is that two unique areas have now been made to look identical and generic.
Curius me and some others had the exact same feeling when i finally got them to fully explore it.
_________________ Account name's: Holydeath The Five Corners Active characters: Alandril TruebornBlake Rift
The place already has more spawns than the old area, though. It literally is worth more gold.
That doesn't actually matter, though. The place has always been big enough that the beasties would have respawned if you're in need of more by the time you're done. Now, however, the place is less enjoyable to go through, so even though each individual trip might yield more gp/xp, the required effort is greater.
It's not just a numbers game, the place also needs to be inviting enough that your brain can handle going through it again and again and again and again and again and again and again, because that's what leveling is on Amia. It's the reason so many of my own characters tend to disappear around level 19, because the dungeons after that exhaust me in a way that earlier areas don't.
TormakSaber wrote:
I'm not going to lock it, sorry.
I love you.
_________________ Currently playing: Aven Brinyflask Safaya Dalai Riyit Chsera Hile
-My suggestion is rather simple, Put in more spawns and closer together, make multiple pawns at the same spots like we had before , remake those scary spots with 2-3 spawns hording you at ones
Sprinkling in a few more spawns is on the list. There will not be a change in the randomness, so it's possible you may get multiple groups at once.
Holydeath wrote:
-Make the area brighter, put in more natural light sources like the Gliberling caves for example.
It's intentionally very dark. Gnolls (and therefore the derivative Beastmen) have Darkvision. It made no sense for the previous caverns to be so lit up.
Holydeath wrote:
-Redo the Climb things(already working on that)
Being worked on, should be in soon.
Holydeath wrote:
-Put in something like separate monster spawns, like a bridge only spawning warriors and on the two sides only spawning archers, AKA like the Bendir Orc caves things like that make the area interesting.
Not possible with the way we spawn monsters.
Holydeath wrote:
-Make the boss stronger maybe give him two special designed bodyguards
Also not possible with the way we spawn monsters, plus we're not going to tinker with monster balance.
Holydeath wrote:
-Add a Quest regarding the new caves and add a Cool Rp item as a reward, or a handy item for lvl 15'ish toons again to attract players and give more reason both OOC and IC to go there
Might happen.
angst360 wrote:
The Baphitaurs called, they want their area back...
I guess I get the argument that the area needed to be brought up to current standards, but there was an area that looked like this already over on B: The Baphitaurs have the same tileset with the descending hallways, lava flow, and all.
So, what has actually happened here is that two unique areas have now been made to look identical extremely similar and generic.
This was a complete accident if it's true. Oh well. This is one of those 'get over it' things.
TormakSaber wrote:
I'm not going to lock it, sorry.
You weren't supposed to. The comment was to get people to post specific things to fix, something that seemed to fly right by a few people. Happily, someone got it.
Larsaan wrote:
TormakSaber wrote:
The place already has more spawns than the old area, though. It literally is worth more gold.
That doesn't actually matter, though. The place has always been big enough that the beasties would have respawned if you're in need of more by the time you're done. Now, however, the place is less enjoyable to go through, so even though each individual trip might yield more gp/xp, the required effort is greater.
Then give specific examples of things to change or fix, and how to change them. Otherwise, you are pretty much barking at a wall.
_________________ ~Diana de Priondragas - Enigmatic druid, Arbiter, Counselor, Bear. ~Corinn Aldaine - Just a girl with a big heart... who can turn you into a newt. ~Vigdis Haldorsdottr - Walk softly and carry a big axe.
Then give specific examples of things to change or fix, and how to change them.
I'd honestly either bring back the old caves or redo the whole thing from scratch, because most of my problems are tied to the design of the dungeon itself. The climbing section, even after being fixed, is still just an injection of extra loading screens into the dungeon run. The tileset is dark, dreary and no fun to look at. The layout is cramped and linear.
I'm not a level designer, so I don't know for certain how I'd solve these things. I'd probably start with not having a climbing section at all, though. I'd also use different tilesets for each level, to give each of them its own visual flair. Add more distinct areas, like a slave quarter. Tighten the pacing, add more ambush points, possibly some traps. I'd probably ditch the huts, they don't make sense for gnolls anyway. If I were to keep them, though, I'd actually put something in them, make it so they actually have a point.
Something tells me these are things I'm just supposed to "get over", though.
Eurgiga wrote:
Otherwise, you are pretty much barking at a wall.
Yes, that's what it feels like.
_________________ Currently playing: Aven Brinyflask Safaya Dalai Riyit Chsera Hile
I'd probably start with not having a climbing section at all, though. I'd also use different tilesets for each level, to give each of them its own visual flair. Add more distinct areas, like a slave quarter. Tighten the pacing, add more ambush points, possibly some traps. I'd probably ditch the huts, they don't make sense for gnolls anyway. If I were to keep them, though, I'd actually put something in them, make it so they actually have a point. Something tells me these are things I'm just supposed to "get over", though.
Completely agree with this , specially more Ambush points, Also a slave quarter sounds wonderful, heck you could even tie a quest around rescuing someone from there, then kill the boss
PS : Forgive my enthusiasm
_________________ Account name's: Holydeath The Five Corners Active characters: Alandril TruebornBlake Rift
It's intentionally very dark. Gnolls (and therefore the derivative Beastmen) have Darkvision. It made no sense for the previous caverns to be so lit up.
There is dark, and then there is dark so dark it inconveniences even the players, rather than the PCs. Shadowscape errs so close to the latter for me that I have to wear light items as a DM to function there. The beastmen caves aren't quite so close for me. Darkvision really doesn't do TOO much in nwn, and mostly just slightly cranks up the ambient light, like if someone had turned up the gamma a few notches. It's not like pnp where it's actuslally useful or sight increasing.
Quote:
Also not possible with the way we spawn monsters, plus we're not going to tinker with monster balance.
Incorrect (to my knowledge) - you just make the bodyguards spawn in the same bit as the boss. That said: Probably not necessary.
Quote:
This was a complete accident if it's true. Oh well. This is one of those 'get over it' things.
Actually, if true, perhaps we should look at either the Beastmen Caves or the Baphitaur area and consider changing them. Probably the latter, considering the work that just went into the former. I would also appreciate you not telling people to "get over it" after you invited the criticism. There are better ways to tell people that something isn't changing.
_________________ Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
We're kind of selling the Baphitaur caves short here - it's actually a really good example of what I find to be a well-designed area. The spawns are interesting, in that there is some strategy involved and they kinda do something different. Helps that baphitaurs themselves are an unusual mob to begin with. There is one map of twisty tunnels (this is the part where it resembles the new Beastmen lair), a teleport that leads to a really cool spot (I have for many years desired to turn that into a faction base, but never held all the right cards to make it so), and going further into the baphitaur area takes you to a dungeon/fortress with a little boss at the end. A varied location, with a bit of a mystery surrounding the teleport section. And I think that transition from a zone with one appearance to a completely different style helps to keep the area seeming fresher. Quite a few dungeons do this, but that area in particular kind of sticks out to me.
In contrast though, the old beastmen area was just a bunch of empty cavern rooms, with some water near some of them. On the lowest levels you had some walls to run around, you fall in a hole, and then at the very bottom you fight around some stone platforms. There's nothing at all like you say what made the Baphitaurs interesting, in the old beastmen cave designs. It really was just vanilla, open rooms, no placeables or 'mystery', stock NWN tiles. As an academic curiosity :Why did you find that more interesting/better looknig than the current incarnation?
_________________ Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
It was easier on my poor eyes, and the spawns were less far apart. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that the old beastman caves was a good zone visually, I just didn't think it was bad and since neither of them really win out in the "visual spectacle" department, I'll err for the convenience advantages of the old ones if I had to pick. My feedback is more towards what I feel should be applied in general when designing areas, including the Beastmen lair. Not that I expect it to be redesigned so soon, I just feel it was a bit of a missed opportunity that can be learned from.
Said critique is tempered by my understanding that I'm an armchair critic with very little understanding of dev work so y'know I'm not gonna be mad if my words aren't taken to heart.
We're kind of selling the Baphitaur caves short here - it's actually a really good example of what I find to be a well-designed area. The spawns are interesting, in that there is some strategy involved and they kinda do something different. Helps that baphitaurs themselves are an unusual mob to begin with. There is one map of twisty tunnels (this is the part where it resembles the new Beastmen lair), a teleport that leads to a really cool spot (I have for many years desired to turn that into a faction base, but never held all the right cards to make it so), and going further into the baphitaur area takes you to a dungeon/fortress with a little boss at the end. A varied location, with a bit of a mystery surrounding the teleport section. And I think that transition from a zone with one appearance to a completely different style helps to keep the area seeming fresher. Quite a few dungeons do this, but that area in particular kind of sticks out to me.
It's a great area. If my bringing it up leads to it being changed I would be quite saddened by this.
As an academic curiosity :Why did you find that more interesting/better looknig than the current incarnation?
Well, every level in the old caves had its own identity, with at least one "point of interest" each:
The first level had the narrow walkways across the water, culminating in a big brawl at the end with double spawns and two doors that allowed for a bit of bottleneck strategy.
The second level marked an increase in difficulty by introducing the beastman Heroes and Shamans (the new caves throw them at you almost as soon as you enter, due to the climbing section), although overall it's probably the least interesting one.
The third level started off with a big, scary double-spawn brawl (I've had so many wipes or near-wipes there), gave you two choices of twisty hallways to navigate through, and ended with another huge brawl by the exit. Also, while much darker than the previous areas, it still had several sources of coloured light. It was visual shorthand for "this is where things get serious".
The fourth level had its hot red colour scheme, and while the first half of it was pretty standard, the second half was set in big halls where you'd often have massive brawls against several spawns at once. If you were to describe dungeons as narrative, it would be the action-packed blow-out of the second act.
The last level likely started you off flat on your face after failing to climb the rope, which if nothing else would usually inspire a bit of RP interaction. It was also a point of no return, giving the situation that extra bit of dramatic flair. The bridge at the beginning looked good, being lit by regular torches which contrasted the dark caves that followed. You then had the barricaded area, which could be reached through the trapped side tunnel, or just gave your ranged party members a time to shine. The area right after that had gorgeous purple lighting, and was also a good old double-spawn brawl. The king's chamber also had different lighting, using a lot more orange IIRC.
I mean, I'll admit that outside of a select few spots it didn't have the level of detail of, say, Darkhold (the second and fourth levels in particular were a fairly monotonous), but they still had more overall variety.
Edit: In hindsight, this may be the cheesiest post I have ever written.
_________________ Currently playing: Aven Brinyflask Safaya Dalai Riyit Chsera Hile
Why not re-purpose the new area for a new dungeon-- and reinstall the old. I bet it will be much better received and used as some place new. I'm willing to bet there's a dev or two ready to work on and help with mob balancing.
Just a suggestion of-course.
_________________
❤ Amia is Fun Again! ❤ #GreenisNotACreativeColour "It's easy to feel like a hero. It's a little harder to be one."
Joined: 02 Jun 2015 Location: Georgia, United States.
I didn't make this original post to over work the team, or insult the design. The original post was for it's just a huge inconvenience for Shifters. Which was / is my main concern being my main is a shifter. I didn't like how our group got to the Beastmen cave and in 4 spawns realized we're never coming back until it's slightly adjusted. There are minor issues I had with the design, but the major one, as said, that made this post was the Climbing system. It's very annoying to attend DM events, or go hunting and have to unshift constantly to go through portals. Some DMs say it's no issue and their happy to teleport Cory and myself, but I have a feeling /it/ really is a issue. Not only for the players but the DMs.
I concur with some other people on minor issues such as it's to dark, too. But once the whole climbing system is fix I'll revisit the area and see if there are any further issues I feel should be mentioned. Currently I don't have a character strong enough to go through the Cave, aside from Nicholas. I've only made it to the 4th spawn before we quit the area.
I haven't seen any updates so I thought I would throw my 2 cents in. Other than the shifter issue (which is really unfair to shifter pc's btw), can we just get the lights turned up a little? I know, it should be dark, but, I've gone there with pc's with darkvision and it's still pitch black. It makes navigating very difficult and frustrating while adding nothing to the dungeon itself. Dark and moody is good, pitch black is just annoying. Even with light items on, the blackness doesn't let you see very far, and the design makes it that much harder to get around. Just fix the shifter issue and turn the lights up a little and I think myself and many others would be happy again.
I haven't seen any updates so I thought I would throw my 2 cents in. Other than the shifter issue (which is really unfair to shifter pc's btw), can we just get the lights turned up a little? I know, it should be dark, but, I've gone there with pc's with darkvision and it's still pitch black. It makes navigating very difficult and frustrating while adding nothing to the dungeon itself. Dark and moody is good, pitch black is just annoying. Even with light items on, the blackness doesn't let you see very far, and the design makes it that much harder to get around. Just fix the shifter issue and turn the lights up a little and I think myself and many others would be happy again.
if ts pitch black then it might be a dynamix area bug.
Type /s f_playertools then go to your radial menu to find a new feat and use it for a black area fix if you can.
_________________
❤ Amia is Fun Again! ❤ #GreenisNotACreativeColour "It's easy to feel like a hero. It's a little harder to be one."
Do you really think changing the gamma on my monitor where I've played here for 5 years or so is necessary when I've never had to do that before? I mean, sure, it's a bandaid, but... why should I have to make workarounds to play in a dungeon? Shouldn't it just be usable? Sorry to go on a bit of a rant here, but... let's face it, I'm not the only one to say it's too dark. That might mean... it's too dark? With all the changes being made to Amia, why won't someone who actually has some authority accept that a mistake may have been made and just fix it. I don't know how much work it is to change this, but... I can tell you that many people simply avoid the area now. Wouldn't it be better to alter it to be more appealing than expect people to adjust their gamma?
RE: Shifter Issue. Sorry, had no idea, don't play shifters.
Lights: It's really dark. I've played this server for years, and others, and never had anything this dark, not even on Ravenloft. Strange you don't, but, others have had the same trouble. Thank you for looking into it!
I don't have an issue with the lighting. I like how you can see a little to know it's a cave but not enough to think that you might be outside. It's not like Darkhold, at least.
_________________ Remember when I knew a boxer, baby
I rather enjoy the new one. Loved the old one too, but the new one is just fine. The climbing works fine, darkness feels okay, but i do use Ultra Vision a lot. I would not mind more spawns, but i cant really say how it compared to the old one. Feels like the last floor with now spawns is kind of odd.
Really like how descriptive it is, second time i checked it out i figured id see what happens if i try to open one of the hutts and was pleasantly surprised by a very good IC excuse not to go inside and check it out.
I'm only on the second floor, but my impression is very positive so far. The environment is far more interesting and echos the events that took place there.
More importantly, it is WAY more manageable for people to use the environment tactically. The old Beastmen cave really hard to do that with except in a few spots. This makes it was more merciful for people who actually need to be leveling there and aren't ECL 30s making cash runs. Beastmen can actually be reliably solo'd by non-optimized builds now. I'm eager to take an appropriate-ECL sneak through solo and see how it goes, because I have a feeling it'll be way more viable than it used to be.
(I CAN RUN INTO THE WATER? THIS IS THE BEST THING EVER. :D :D )
Found the magma. A little surprised at the lack of fire damage on the bridge crossings, disappointed! But I guess I'm a masochist. Got to the King, it was still just him. Real unlucky for him that his guards failed to spawn with him. Sang Snake Eater to myself on the way up the ladder because damn, that must have been a while...
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