AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

As a player of a merchant character, one thing I've always found curious in my dealings and surveying what's available is the fact that there are quite readily available and accessible from NPC vendors weapons and armors beyond plain +4 enchantment (IE, +4 with other bonuses), but I've searched high and low and have never found plain +4 weapons and armors for sale anywhere. There's a curious gap where vendors offer +3 armors/weapons, no plain +4 version, and then +4 (with things on top).

I think it'd be very handy and helpful to find a spot to add these armors in the vendor field somewhere as plain +4 weapons/armors offer a reasonably useful level of power at a reasonably low-level availability (usually about level 9 to 11).

Rashad tends to stock these as he finds them for lowbies, but it's rather incongruous that to get them I have to farm monsters for them when +4 w/ other bonuses armors/weapons can be bought from non-epic NPCs if one knows where to look.

I never thought about it, but I don't miss them either. I rather have curious weapons at all levels.

Regards
Ts

Here's the problems with that.

1. It makes no logical sense that any mage would simply not make them and no vendor would not sell them, simply because they'd sell well.

And

2. Character progression makes little sense when you get to +3 at say - level 7 then cannot upgrade anything til level 17 because your next available step up is a +4 (with a bunch of other junk on it) that costs a small fortune to buy.

I guess people make them and sell them. Just not on Amia, where limited shop storage means that the higher end shops focus on high-end stuff. Or any other reason.

Here's why I think those are not needed:
* That difference of 1 AB / 1 dmg isn't that big. +5 AB is the interesting thing, but for that people have GMW. (Which progresses nicely with you.)
* You can buy random, useless +4 loot drops from players for 30k most likely. If you can't use the item yet, just ask someone to remove some properties with the MCS.
* You can buy a plain weapon and a greater mythal for at most 50k. Then make a +4 weapon yourself.

I know, a shop would be convienient and the developers could add some +4 gear without thinking. But why bother? I like not having boring items. And I like going to strange places for interesting gear. And I would be disappointed to go to a newly added Nth Layer of Hell to find a plain +4 shop.

Regards
Ts

Every single one of your points is easily handled with "..and no low-level character can do/afford that" or "we've shops aplenty stocked with plain +1, +2, +3 armors/weapons and +4 ones jacked up with high magic bonuses any character can simply walk to in/near settlements at present - having a plain +4 'blind-spot' is bizarre, non-sensical in a realistic sense, and makes no sense in the metagame.'

No mages' council just up and decided 'we'll make plain +1, +2, +3 items, and +4 items.... BUT only with lots of junk on them. Screw plain +4 stuff, it'll never sell!"

It makes no sense and appears to be an oversight. There probably was a +4 merchant somewhere that got nuked along the way and never re-dressed.

And, a plain +4 weapon doesn't have to be magically enhanced, it can also be the reflection of mastered craftsmanship.

I guess if one really wants that +4 instead of a +3, a level 10 can cough up 30k. It's probably not the best investment, but so be it. At level 15 you can be a millionare, if you grind the easy places of the +3 loot bin, where you get close to 500-1000 gold /kill (on average after selling to merchants).

Also, according to the toolset:
Weapon +3 costs roughly 16k.
Weapon +4 costs roughly 30k.

So what is there to be gained by offering +4 weapons for those people that, according to you, cannot afford 30k? Or are our shops set to significantly less than toolset prices?

Mind you, I'm not opposed to a +4 shop. I've just never seen a need for it and wish for other shops to be added instead.

Regards
Ts

Just to add my two cents, I myself have needed a simple +4 armor and weapon before. Typically i have to look around, beg other players, and plan massive amount of times just to get the coin needed and the time ready to get to said players just to buy it. Not everyone likes to deal with 3+ weeks of waiting for a single item that only gives +4 armour/damage... But at the same time, leveling sometimes is too slow to just get that +4 with blahblah on it because why pay for that extra if you are just going to remove it..? waste of money.

A simple shop with +4's should be fine, i mean.. look at the abyss shops.. they all are +4 with +5 or even +7(if RNG gods are with you) to something or another.

Also id LOVE to see a warriors helmet & boot shop somewhere sometime. MY level 22 barb still has a cordorian helmet since i can't find anything ever that doesn't require spellcraft/spot to get to.

LunarBloom wrote:

And, a plain +4 weapon doesn't have to be magically enhanced, it can also be the reflection of mastered craftsmanship.

No, this is what Masterwork is. Anything +1 and greater is magic.

Isn't there a ton of +4 stuff sold in the Gauntlet and Abyss Shop? I'd assumed the notion was you don't find anything that magical just lying around. You have to go out into the wilds and ancient places to find anything like that or be lucky enough to beat it out of a monster. Even for our higher-magic setting, it's a bit of a stretch to have "normal" people peddling near-epic weapons and armor.

Even still, I can think of at least two settlements where you can buy +4 armor. Not all weapons and armor types, but some +4 stuff at least. I could see the need for a near-epic shop or something though, possibly out in the wilds as well. I can't remember, but that might have been the point of the Abyss Caravan, but it's not like people made use of it by the time they could get there anyway.

TormakSaber wrote:

LunarBloom wrote:

And, a plain +4 weapon doesn't have to be magically enhanced, it can also be the reflection of mastered craftsmanship.

No, this is what Masterwork is. Anything +1 and greater is magic.

I never got the logic behind that, one would think that hardness of the substance would grant it the power to increase, bypass or block damage.

Random BS numbers I made up.
Wood=1
Stone=2
Iron or steel=3
Mithral=4
Adamantine=5

So that sure you could magic your stick to be stronger like steel but a normal Adamantine non-magiced should still be better. Or does it count as because its a rare magical like substance auto counts as "magiced" so could be higher then +1 without finger waving?

Durability (different materials have different hardness) is different than magical enhancement. Different materials also provide weight reduction, too. +1 through +5 all have to do with magical enchantment.

In Magic of Faerun, items crafted from Adamantine provide an enhancement bonus. Heavy armours +3, medium +2 and light +1, all weapons have a +1 enhancement. In D&D an enhancement bonus is not necessarily a magical bonus, it just signifies an item has been enhanced some way whether by magical or mundane means. Of course it is always up to the purview of the DM to rule what sort of enhancement provide what kind of bonus. A DM could rule that a sword has been so well crafted that it provides a +1 to attack and damage bonus, thus a +1 enhancement bonus.

I have seen precedent with this in Amia in the DC requests for weapons and armours. Some people find crafters who make their +5 equipment without magical means and the RP been approved by the DM team.

A mundane forged Masterwork weapon only gives you +1 AB. Anything more than that is a magical enchantment according to the srd. In saying that, all magic weapons are also considered to be masterwork.

From the SRD.

• show

Fair enough if thems the rules, though it does seem like craft quality and material become almost irrelevent because if it. I remember playing a smith who put a lot of work into quality, and it was great fun roleplaying the differences in materials - exploring properties and smithing methods. But when it comes down to mechanics or potential buyers, it isnt really represented satisfyingly. Sure you get a fancy tag in the description, and mithral gets weight reduction (which is awesome), but could it be more?! Must all the cool stuff be confined to the realms of magic and beyond the grasp of a warrior?!

Edit: come to think of it, other materials had properties too.

Luckbringer wrote:

In Magic of Faerun, items crafted from Adamantine provide an enhancement bonus. Heavy armours +3, medium +2 and light +1, all weapons have a +1 enhancement. In D&D an enhancement bonus is not necessarily a magical bonus, it just signifies an item has been enhanced some way whether by magical or mundane means.

Enhancement bonus mentioned in MoF is not a varying + enchantment but rather varying DR bonus on armour items and weapons get the ability to sunder things with up to 20 hardness. "Enhancement bonus" is a mechanical term for a number different bonuses (note since enhancement bonuses wont stack with other enhancement bonuses of the same type).

Well yes and no, it refers to a "natural enhancement bonus" (note enhancement, not enchantment, as enchantment bonuses is not a thing) only for adamantine armours and weapons in both MoF and DMG. Nothing is mentioned regarding sundering and DR, which are two separate things unrelated to enhancement bonus. I can't remember exactly the source but I think in 2ed armours received a DR bonus, but no longer in 3ed. But yes different types of mechanical enhancement bonus do not stack with one another. ie the +1 an adamantine weapon receives does not stack if it is magically enchanted to give +5. You get +5 and not +6. And like you said an enhancement bonus is a mechanical bonus and not necessarily a magical bonus. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#enhancementBonus

Anyways, just my way of explaining how +4 items do not necessarily have to be magically enchanted to receive that level of bonus. So the above poster was correct, unless the DMs rule otherwise. But they don't seem to have looking at DC requests.

p.283 of the 3.5 DMG Or just here adamantine items only have and enchantment bonus because anything made in adamantine basically requires an amount of work that it always classifies it as a Masterwork item. So as with other masterwork items that bonus is due to the crafting, all higher enhancement in D&D pretty much require magic (unless you can source a material or other source that provides it).

Thats the one, thanks. I knew I saw that somewhere. I was quoting 3ed rules. DMG pg 242. and Magic of Faerun pg. 177. Adamantine gives enhancement bonuses +1 to +3, instead of DR for armour in 3ed. And up to +2 for weapons. I guess they retconed that for 3.5ed.

No worries, 3.0 to 3.5 has a lot of things like that change. Although nwn makes a real mess of things especially with its handling of Craft Magic Arms and Armor.

The system seems pretty sensible to me. +4 gear is simmering you either loot, buy, or mythal craft. It adds a sort of challenge to getting what qualifies as pseudo end game equipment that isn't met with a simple "get it at zeek's". Though that's my interpretation of it and I have no idea how the system was developed and with what inventions.

As a levelling addict I'd say plain +4 weapons are utter crap for the requirement/oomph ratio and I've not missed their removal from the loot bins at all. It's not worth going from N+(1d6 damage bonus) to N+1, where N is enhancement. This is very different to bike ownership, where N+1 is always correct.

Plain +4 armours are technically a different story, but there's so many flavoured +4 armours with cheap additional properties that me and the Mythal system have never had a hard time getting good value for money. In any case, vanilla +4 still drops.

bobofwestoregonusa wrote:

The system seems pretty sensible to me. +4 gear is simmering you either loot, buy, or mythal craft. It adds a sort of challenge to getting what qualifies as pseudo end game equipment that isn't met with a simple "get it at zeek's". Though that's my interpretation of it and I have no idea how the system was developed and with what inventions.

And here's the problems where this line of thought falls apart:

1. I can wander into the proverbial "Zeek's" in several places and walk out with Full Plate +4 with a bunch of other things on it quite easily... yet I can't buy just plain +4 full plate anywhere? Makes zero sense.

2. You want to know what you have to kill to get +4 plain equipment? You have to run around farming the top tier loot table encounters just to get a shot at ILR 9 to 10 equipment. That's right, you want a morningstar +4 you have to be epic and run around killing yetis, fire giants, and sahuagin. Stuff so far beyond that equipment, anybody who is killing it has already walked into "Zeek's" and bought that morningstar +4, +d6 cold dmg, and onHit: fear.

It's a goofy oversight that makes no sense.

That seems like a fairly convincing argument to me, MnM, though I'm skeptical that reorienting the loot bins is high on the priority list at the moment.

Wholeheartedly agreed with MightNMagic: it's silly! Pimping up one of the basic +3 stores, of which there are several, into +4 shouldn't be a massive toil.

+4

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