AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic - STOP! Don't touch me there-- Rules Review.

I'd like to move that we make an official rule against said topics and the insinuation of said topics completely so.

I'm not sure what you're referring to, PassionateShadow. Link?

Alaria- wrote:

I'm not sure what you're referring to, PassionateShadow. Link?

Yeah. - Explain?

She refers to the sensetive topic of forced sexual interaction. Ie, rape.

IMO this causes way to many issues. I feel that if a rule that was completely against it being mentioned would solve all the problems. IMO the topic is unacceptable.

If there's something that breaks the rules or toes the line, report it.

gorgometh wrote:

If there's something that breaks the rules or toes the line, report it.

I have.Each time. Most often nothing seems to be done with it or it gets dismissed. I would rather move to have a new rule added that erases the gray lines.

That's fine, but are you reporting this to anyone on the actual team? - I could be missing something, but doing a cursory search of our super top-secret DM forum shows no filed reports on this topic.

Allow me to clarify something: Are you stating that even the mention of rape is something that should be banned? Or actual (fade-to-black) rape as part of RP?

We do have an adult setting, and I'm against barring even the mention of it. We talked about this recently amongst a few DMs, and enforcing a rule that rape cannot even be mentioned or IC considered as a threat means that any character who womanizes, or leers, or demeans a woman or sexually harasses them because they're misogynistic is not against the rules even though they didn't do anything graphic or physical. They just play a character that has a goal of making a PC uncomfortable.

Now, misogyny has a place in FR. I know, I run Ruathym. But rape also has a role in making most of the monster or half monster races in FR, like tieflings and half-orcs. That's just how it is. We already bar active rape from happening, and enforce it must be glossed over in any background, even if it should be known that a human woman would not consent to intercourse with an orc.

If someone is making you uncomfortable with a misogynistic character, let the player know it's making you uncomfortable. If they push it or actually crodd the line beyond being lewd, let us know.

gorgometh wrote:

That's fine, but are you reporting this to anyone on the actual team? - I could be missing something, but doing a cursory search of our super top-secret DM forum shows no filed reports on this topic.

Yes I have reported them to members of the DM team each time and still have responses in my PM box.
In one response I was essentially told it was because it holds some relevance to D&D Lore and that it shouldn't be blurred out completely. I disagree and I feel that tip toeing around the topic does nothing about it. There is no good reason for this to be discussed IC or other wise. There is always a alternative for a background. All this does is leave gray areas and create issues that leave people offended upset or disturbed on an OOC lvl and makes the community seem distasteful to allow this sort of thing to continue.

There is a big difference between misogyny and rape. There is no good reason for rape to be mentioned.

Naivatkal wrote:

Allow me to clarify something: Are you stating that even the mention of rape is something that should be banned? Or actual (fade-to-black) rape as part of RP?

Rape as a topic in character.

Tough one. I see where you're coming from, PS. The problem here is that, as disgusting of a topic as it is, it actually has a relevant place in FR lore. BoB put it best, actually. We do have rules in place to bar the act itself, but saying it can't even be discussed ICly is a bit far, imo. If it makes you uncomfortable, and the player doesn't lay off after you've requested it, that's when the staff should be involved.

Now, at that point, you're alluding to actual events that happened ICly. That's the point where you don't want to discuss it on the forums, but through PM's. In a general sense, though, the talk of the act itself can't really be banned from IC interaction. It's a pretty integral part of some lore, and even some characters on Amia.

Generally speaking, I don't think this can be done. But I see something is making you uncomfortable, so something DOES need to be done about that. Just not on the public forums, I don't think.

davis114 wrote:

Generally speaking, I don't think this can be done. But I see something is making you uncomfortable, so something DOES need to be done about that. Just not on the public forums, I don't think.

Well said, Davis. - But if someone is doing something to directly make you uncomfortable or harass you, then we need to be informed so we can crack some heads.

I choose, as a player, not to mention or allude to it in my own personal RP if I can abstain from doing so. The best we can do is ask others to respect our decision in not wanting the topic suggested either explicitly or implicitly.

Oh, I agree with Burning and the others on this. The R-word is something that I personally shiver a bit at when I hear it, but there is no denying it has a place IC. Liz and I had a recent IC encounter when such a thing was mentioned and discussed. It's difficult to prohibit the subject entirely without watering down the lore to the point where it's only half-FR.

There is ALWAYS an alternative for stories and background and the like. Time and time again I've seen that this community is not mature enough to handle it as a topic. Several times I've seen people pull it out as a 'get out of trouble free card' when something completely unrelated is being discussed because their character is in trouble. To cause a fuss about such a topic just to get your character out of legitimate in character trouble is in my opinion pretty petty. Or to force their character on to another to 'get out of trouble' card. I've also seen players get down right offended and loose their cool even wen politely asked to drop the conversation as it has made several people in the area uncomfortable discussing or being involved in. On top of that the jokes that get made of it is most un becoming and I do not wish to support this behavior in the community any longer. Even after politely removing my self from the situation I've been berated with tells of people wanting to justify shoving the topic down my throat. I'm honestly appalled that from what I've seen of the reports I've sent in nothing has been done about them. This sort of behavior is, in my opinion, no way showing me that our community is mature enough for this to be a topic. On several accounts I have asked player politely on an out of character level to please not include me or gear their roleplay towards such topics and conversely they have only really seemed to have continued.

All this seems to do is cause problems needlessly so. This is why I am motioning that this be made an official ruling.

There is always an alternative. I'm sorry but saying that it's for lore sake doesn't seem to be a good reason to me at all when our Community behaves like what I've seen.

I'm with BoB and Davis there.

It is a bad topic yes, but forbidding it to be mentioned even remotely won't really fly. I mean there's no law in RL either to forbid mention such entirely. The act is forbidden, yea. The same applies to Amia. The act is forbidden. Detail mention is forbidden. It is forbidden to be "faded to black" or happen altogether in the Amia timeline. But to forbid the topic full and entire won't really work. If someone breaches the rules as they are we will act. If people IC feel their charas need to briefly mentioned it for whatever reason and you/your chara feels uncomfortable say so and leave the conversation.

Censoring the topic completely just because you claim to have had bad experiences about it (not saying that you are lying, I just don't know exactly about the situations which made you uncomfortable) seems rather tyrannical for the rest of the server tbh.

If something bad has happened, I'm sure the DM team will help you, especially after seeing how this affects you apparently. And they will speak with those who have mistreated you OOCly concerning the topic coming up IC. Having screenshots of the incident(s) will help very much!

Amarice-Elaraliel wrote:

I'm with BoB and Davis there.

It is a bad topic yes, but forbidding it to be mentioned even remotely won't really fly. I mean there's no law in RL either to forbid mention such entirely. The act is forbidden, yea. The same applies to Amia. The act is forbidden. Detail mention is forbidden. It is forbidden to be "faded to black" or happen altogether in the Amia timeline. But to forbid the topic full and entire won't really work. If someone breaches the rules as they are we will act. If people IC feel their charas need to briefly mentioned it for whatever reason and you/your chara feels uncomfortable say so and leave the conversation.

I am with Amarice.

First thing: rape is completely disallowed, even in fade-to-black instances between two agreeable players? I don't really care, mind, I just can't recall knowing that before so want to clarify.

I do agree that the topic of rape is very controversial, and the act itself is, indeed, reprehensible. However discretely talking about it having happened shouldn't be disallowed. We're (mostly) all adults, let's be adult about it. Seriously. And if someone is offended by it, treat them nicely; I frankly don't care if you dislike the player or not just be a responsible roleplayer/person.

If someone is made uncomfortable by any topic (within reason, nothing silly should be reported) and the parties refuse to stop (and, indeed, berate another over tells) then it should be reported. And something should be done about it especially if proof is shown, regardless of if it's via tells or any other form of communication. Protection of our players should be something offered to everyone, and backed by the DMs 100% (again, within reason; don't say that talking about lollipops offended your sensibilities ;p).

Silkelock wrote:

Amarice-Elaraliel wrote:

I'm with BoB and Davis there.

It is a bad topic yes, but forbidding it to be mentioned even remotely won't really fly. I mean there's no law in RL either to forbid mention such entirely. The act is forbidden, yea. The same applies to Amia. The act is forbidden. Detail mention is forbidden. It is forbidden to be "faded to black" or happen altogether in the Amia timeline. But to forbid the topic full and entire won't really work. If someone breaches the rules as they are we will act. If people IC feel their charas need to briefly mentioned it for whatever reason and you/your chara feels uncomfortable say so and leave the conversation.

I am with Amarice.

The issue isn't stemming from it being mentioned. The issue is stemming from characters saying things like 'He/She said I was going to rape them' or when a character takes another character to the woods and says 'You know I can rape you right now and no one will hear you', or forcing them-self on to another character who has clearly said No, or a character taking two characters and locking them in a room and telling them to make out else they will gut them like a fish, or 'I had to do it he said he was going to rape me'. Especially when things like the last line are said in game to get other character in-trouble when nothing of the sort happened is really petty or to divert attention of of one's own character. The other instances which have all happened in game disgust me and I'm appalled nothing has been done to correct these players to to tell them this is NOT okay. This is not okay by any means and I'm tiered of seeing such a topic used in such a manipulative petty manner, made light of, or used to cause drama. It's not mature of the community at all and From following through with the usual proses Ive seen no changes, nor action taken. My suggested course of action is to bar it from being mentioned as I haven't seen anything remotely mature about this topic being handled in game.
There is always an alternative for story and background. I still see no good reason for it. In my view nothing of value will be lost with such a rule implemented.

No thanks. This sets a stupidly dangerous precedent.

"I don't like torture, because it's terrible and this and that. So we can't talk about torture anymore, even if it's vague."

To me, this sounds like a harassment (IC or OOC) and a personal issue. Not a rule one.

PS, if this has happened, take screenshots, inform someone on the DM Channel, then remove your character from the area. Send the screenshots to several DMs, or send them to all of the DMs (sorry guys, but rape 'is' a worthy topic to have you blasted with PMs). If something that a character, or player, says that offends you so greatly, then remove yourself from the situation and avoid contact. Just remember that a handful of immature people should not label the entire community, and those of us who are capable of handling the topic, may not appreciate that.

I should add, too, that using it as a IC 'get out of jail free card' is just that... IC. It's just like people screaming (false) rape in RL, you can't stop them from doing it (though getting caught doing that IC should have just as many repercussions as doing it in RL). So making a rule to stop that is a bad idea.

However, it doesn't excuse people from making anyone uncomfortable for any serious reason. Be it belittling someone over asking them to stop making rape comments or harassing someone about trying to get in a relationship with them or making continued advances towards them IC. Some things are circumstantial, of course, but there's a wide array of avenues of harassment. We should be doing everything in our power to protect our players.

Sometimes, it's good to take a page from what other servers are doing. Just a thought.

Looks like a sizable portion of the staff has already weighed in unambiguously, so I don't think anything is likely to change. I feel there's some room to elaborate on triggers. Rape is not the only thing that can trigger people. Some people could have lost children IRL, but bringing a child NPC into the setting comes with the very real risk of horrible things happening to the kid. Some of us have lost loved ones, but characters in a relationship are not suddenly off-limits from being murdered.

Let's be frank. Murder is a more dire crime against humanity than rape (though it's a pretty damn slim margin, admittedly), and the setting positively drips with blood. We already have a rule to avoid the worst of the triggers (no RPing rape, or implying that rape has happened during play), and to try and completely whitewash everyone's backstory, or alluding to such a backstory, is doing a great deal of mature RP a grave disservice, on top of being extremely unrealistic. I don't know a single woman that doesn't have some measure of abuse in her past IRL, and it's just not believable for that -not- to carry over into an even darker quasi-medieval setting. I find trying to censor the topic to be disrespectful to survivors, actually. Total censorship is more jarring, brings it closer to the forefront of the brain and puts a weird fear and stigma to the topic that empowers abusers moreso than it does victims. You give it more power by making a bigger deal of it.

A great many female PCs are going to have elements of abuse in their backstories. There are quite a few misogynistic male PCs that walk right up to that line and stop. It's what make these characters sympathetic or reviled, respectively, and cutting out that storytelling element would be cutting out a very real element of the human condition, to say nothing of the slippery slope that you approach in regards to trigger RP in general.

There is something to be said for -taste- in how such things are handled, however, and it seems you have had some experiences with just really gross people. You can't police taste, but you can make your lines very clear. It's every player's own prerogative to dictate what they are and are not comfortable with, and clearly communicate that to other players if a session seems to be approaching that territory. You cannot expect other people to just know. And you cannot expect the DMs to be able to flit around like little censorship butterflies to protect every individual player's particular tastes. The reality of being a gamer is that you have to protect yourself, and immediately remove yourself from situations that make you uncomfortable. Continue taking screenshots and filing reports if you're getting continued harassment from the same people if you've make your lines clear to them previously.

I must say I agree with Amarice et al. regarding this whole deal. We got what we got, and trying to police words is (for the most part) an exercise in futility.

I'm not touching this with a 20-foot pole.

It took me a while to debate whether to touch this or not. In truth I try to avoid posting on these forums like this to stick to purely in game. Recently though I am finding I have issue even looking at some of our forums for posts like this that in my opinion miss the point. Everyone has their in real life stories. There are things that make us uncomfortable and things that feel very wrong and out of place. This will be something you run into time and time again in real life and on this game where a community gathers in mass.

While I do not agree with or endorse such things as rape in any way or form. I do find that posting things like this all the time to be discouraging and in truth spamming the forums. You are also speaking of the act and word itself being offensive and yet in the Cordor guard forums you have a posting that made a target of another player with the word itself typed out in large letter in red twice in the same post. I know my opinions are my own, but I do think personally topics like these if you are offended are to be handled privately with DM's and people you trust.

You can always walk away from players that make you feel uncomfortable. I know I have. I have even spoken to DM's on personal things when I had to remove myself from a player or two or even a quest. I pm'd all the DM's at the same time in the past due to an unfortunate incident in my family one that in truth Ninja hit dead on. Glim and Mana both offered their symphonies to me in a PM and gave me an IC reason out with my character. That would be one of the few reasons I even returned after dealing with it.

So honestly what Amarice said is dead on. As well as a lot of the other DM's on this and some good players. I would seriously think before posting stuff like this and honestly consider the fact that there is a better way to bring awareness then this way. If this offended you I am sorry but I speak for myself when I say it is disheartening to try to look at the forums and finding topics in a pattern posted quite often like this where they need not be. Well that is my personal opinion, just please be respectful to those around and people please keep it clean seriously..

I have had to experience rape both personally and at work where as a prison guard in a male's prison I've had to stop rapes in progress.

Rape is about power, control and dominance, not sexual gratification. Is it a horrible topic and experience? Yes. No one should ever have to experience it. Does it occur both in RL and in a fantasy setting such as FR? Sadly, yes. I have had both of my characters at some point be threatened with rape. Once was as a means of control. The other the person was threatening it as a means to achieve sexual gratification for their character. The first time was handled with maturity; my character managed to get out of the situation and nothing further was emoted along that lines. The second situation I informed the player oocly I was not comfortable with the way things were heading and that I did not wish any further RP in that area. I also screenshotted it and left the area away from the player (ported). The player grumbled a little, implying i was being immature for not wanting to RP further (not the actual rape, just the situation), but dropped it. Nothing further happened.

While it was not a comfortable nor accepted issue for me due to previous experiences, I also realize that what is not comfortable for me might not be an issue for others. While the use of a rape threat in the first situation was something that I could see as having happened in such a circumstance IRL, the second situation was a case of someone not understanding what rape is and was much more offensive and worrisome to me. While I might have a problem with a topic, others might not and my discomfort does not justify having everyone else not be allowed to speak of said topic in game.

Rape and the threat of rape is sadly a reality for many (not just females). While I fully agree with banning it from being RP'd out, even as a "fade to black" I do not agree with it being banned as a topic or threat IG. If people are oocly giving you attitude about leaving such RP, screenshot it, make sure they know you are screenshotting it and turn it in promptly. You have the right to say "NO" and walk away, and if someone oocly is giving you attitude over it, then screenshot and ignore them. They're not worthy of a response.

I'll continue the "I was debating whether to post here at all" theme.

I was debating whether to post here at all, but then this:

CrazyCatLady wrote:

You have the right to say "NO" and walk away, and if someone oocly is giving you attitude over it, then screenshot and ignore them. They're not worthy of a response.

... said the thing I would have said anyway. If you're uncomfortable with the tone or topic of an IC conversation, keep it IC. You can manufacture some flimsy pretext to justify your character just walking away from the conversation, and no harm done. The thing I would not advise is to be the first to take the matter OOC. Unless you already have a preexisting positive OOC relationship with that player, don't send a /tell saying "I'm leaving because I don't like what you're doing." That's just an invitation to escalate. Keep it IC, always keep it IC. If the other player breaks that IC/OOC wall and starts harassing you or insulting you via /tells, *then* that's the time for screenshots and invoking the DM banhammer. But my guiding philosophy is that unless someone's just blatantly and egregiously in violation of an explicit server rule, don't be the first to go OOC.

Just stop RPing with the person who's being a dick? There's shit all they can do when you just walk away, and totally ignore them for the remaining entirety of their life.

Wow, that is so incorrect it does not even register upon my hilarity meter. Players should never be told to 'keep it IC' if they are disturbed OOC. As long as you are politely telling them something like 'hey, I have an issue with these sorts of topics, can we change the subject or be less overt about it please?' then you are in no way giving grounds to escalate. If you are a straight up ass about it, then yeah you are going to push the other person's buttons but, not, if you feel the need to say something OOC do so.

That is nearly as bad as saying 'if you don't like it, leave'.

No, you shouldn't screenie and report someone just for the conversation. But no one is saying that. What is being said is that if someone is harassing you about it via tells (or any form of communication, seriously) then worry about reporting it.

I used to feel exactly that way, Naivy, but then every time I tried to send that polite OOC "hey, no offense, but I get twitchy about these sorts of subjects," it just worked out badly. I think you'd be perfectly right if we lived in a perfect world where everyone was a fine upstanding lady and/or gentleman, but in my experience, people tend to take even the most civilized and polite expression of "I'm not comfortable with what you're doing" and extrapolate it into "I'm not comfortable with what you're doing, so therefore you must be an asshole who's out to destroy the server." This is the internet; tone is not easily communicated. People inflate even the gentlest criticism into grievous personal attacks, and it's better not to be the one who started the fight.

Last edited by VKB on Fri, Jul 24 2015, 21:01 PM, edited 1 time in total.

I've taken part in a plot where one of my characters was under threat of being raped. While I sincerely doubt she would have actually suffered it had things gone differently, in a very odd thing to say, it nonetheless was a very important part of her developing as a character, one which I'm grateful for.

Obviously it's not something that should be brought up frequently - this is Forgotten Realms, not Game of Thrones - but if two players want to go through with it and roleplay the consequences, I think that's their prerogative. As BoB said, this is an adult server, and thus the DMs and players alike should be allowed to tackle adult themes, within the constraints of the rules. But at no point should someone be pressured or outright harassed into allowing such a vile thing to happen to their character. It stinks that some people push hard for it, but OOC communication is important, and if you're deeply uncomfortable with the direction someone's taking their RP with your character, then by all means, talk to them and work something out. If they dismiss you or insult you, and force you to do something you're very uncomfortable with, then that's when you should screenshot and report to a DM.

Nonetheless, restricting even the mention of rape is misguided at best, and outright lore-breaking at worse. Faerun's seen a lot of wars and civil strife, and that's before we add monsters like orcs to the mix. A big part of one of my character's backstory is that she wasn't the product of a loving relationship, and unless I'm told otherwise, I won't tippy-toe around that if it's brought up in-character.

Well imho threatening someone IG to rape someone is another matter and I would say it also is against the rules we already have. Rape is forbidden so threatening to rape is too. (same in RL even). Rape in the amia timeline is forbidden in any kind and threatening to do it is very much a happening in our timeline and is additionally a completely different story than just discussing the subject.

Amarice-Elaraliel wrote:

Well imho threatening someone IG to rape someone is another matter and I would say it also is against the rules we already have. Rape is forbidden so threatening to rape is too. (same in RL even). Rape in the amia timeline is forbidden in any kind and threatening to do it is very much a happening in our timeline and is additionally a completely different story than just discussing the subject.

Exactly what Amarice said and if any one player does this it should be reported with haste. I sincerely doubt this has to be said once more but for complete clarification the rules are here http://www.amiaworld.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?p=918584#p918584

Prohibited on Amia on any and all channels (including the Tell-channel), and prohibited to be included "off-screen" in ongoing storylines of characters on Amia (but may have happened before the character's arrival to Amia):
- Rape
- Paedophilia

So if a character says "I will rape you with your own femur." he's breaking the rules?

EDIT: Also is it against the rules to say "I will stick that halberd up your ass." ?

Dead wrote:

So if a character says "I will rape you with your own femur." he's breaking the rules?

EDIT: Also is it against the rules to say "I will stick that halberd up your ass." ?

I'm thinking "I will ass-fuck you with your own femur", as it doesn't specifically mention rape (and the ass-fucking could therefore have been assumed to be consentual) is fine.

I really think this whole conversation about banning any specific word or mention of rape is pretty silly. If someone does something that is making you uncomfortable, and refuses to stop or alter their behavior, that's one thing.

But trying to completely remove all mention of the word, thought, or deed is really lame.

O dear, let's stay a little mature about this. How about we not say rape or ass-fuck? That seems nice to me. I miss when insults were creative, rather than modern day!

"I'm goin' to rip your arm off and bugger you with it?"

That's a little more in keeping with more archaic language.

Yes, I'm quite alright with that one.

But, in all seriousness, if someone is harassing you and refuses to stop, screenshot it and report them. Once you've made your discomfort clear, they're just being dicks at that point.

I just want to clarify that the conversation that the events between taranath and lyra were not against the rules, it did not extend past picking up, hugging, and kissing her head like she was a child, that was it, nothing else was implied, at all, it was simply meant to be harmless RP. I just wanted to add this, I don't know if this is releavant, but I just wanted everybody to know that. I don't seek to cause trouble, and I don't want it. If this made others uncomfortable, I apoligize, it won't happen, and I'll be mindful in the future regarding the implications of such.

I said something else to silkelock, because I thought it was different than it was, but that's what really happened, I have terrible memory problems at times.

Kenneth wrote:

But, in all seriousness, if someone is harassing you and refuses to stop, screenshot it and report them. Once you've made your discomfort clear, they're just being dicks at that point.

That ^ and what DM's said. I can see this thread escalating. Can it be locked?

Seventh Heaven wrote:

Kenneth wrote:

But, in all seriousness, if someone is harassing you and refuses to stop, screenshot it and report them. Once you've made your discomfort clear, they're just being dicks at that point.

That ^ and what DM's said. I can see this thread escalating. Can it be locked?

It's all IC related, OOC'ly I have no beef at all with these people.

I agree with the above. (Er.., couple posts above) Personally, I don't see this thread becoming constructive, as displayed by how people have generally responded. A lock would be appropriate, unless there is anything else that needs to be discussed that hasn't already been clarified by members of the DM staff?

EDIT: Derp, spelling.

Hasn't it always been against the rules to bring that up in RP? I remember way back in the 'good old days', my character told a tiefling that they look like what happens when a farmer rapes his favorite goat one too many times. I got a polite tell from a couple players(Gillaria and Mirhun, if you want to get nostalgic) to let me know it was against the rules to even use the word in RP.

After my long break/rage-quit, I came back and found that all the 'fecks' people had been tossing around before in character had turned into full-on fucks. The server was a festival'o'fucks out of nowhere. It caught me a little by surprise, but after asking around I learned that the rules on language use had been eased off over the years.

So, being that my character enjoys detailed threats and insults, he threatened to strap bounty hunters to rocks in the forest of despair and have them violated by werewolves. A week or so later, I got a polite message from a DM asking me to remove that bit about werewolf humping from the post..so.. I did. Now I'm just confused.

Did this rule change at some point or was it always just one of those unspoken rules?

Questions like Krin's should be answered before this is locked. There could be a more detailed ruling on the use of the word itself. The ruling prohibiting the action is quite clear. But it seems that general talk about the word rape is frowned upon, which would make this entire post moot in the first place.

STOP! Don't touch me there-- Rules Review.

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