Using tells for whispering is giving the defender in that situation way too much leeway.
And not doing so passes all control to anyone simply within the radius, even if the RP is person A whispering directly into person B's ear which would obviously make it next to impossible to be overheard, certainly incredibly difficult to do so without being noticed in turn.
As I said if there is a toss up between the "defender" and the "attacker" advantage to the defender is often the rule, certainly it is so in many wargaming and rpg rules and I see no reason to alter my stance to that here, whispering is hardly a malignant act, but meta gaming hearing something because of a mechanic that is not based on the IC skills, or situations as to whether a listener should even get a chance to overhear certainly could be.
Nah, the whisper radius is utterly IC, as is the skills and sneaking, and you should be using the Whisper channel if you are whispering. That's pretty much the end of the argument, as far as I am concerned, barring a few very very specific examples.
In that case then given that the "whisper radius" is exactly the same for every character, race and class, as it is a mechanical function of the game engine and not in any way based on the actions of the whisperer, what "skill" should a whisperer roll to be able to whisper in someones ear whilst standing in the open away from any carts, trees, large rocks and other forms of cover / shadow production in order to counter a sneaking character hiding behind that blade of grass?
Also given that in the vast majority of that this will even be relevant how do you propose to balance the sneakers class skills vs the whispers entire lack of whispering skill check class or cross classed, will there be equipment a character can model to look exactly like their day to day clothing in order that they can quickly switch clothing before attempting to whisper in order to stack more of any putative whisper skill to counter the no doubt equally stacking sneaker?
Right now just seems like people want to use and abuse a mechanical facet of the game engine to get an IC advantage without any RP input, the old "roll" play vs "role" play argument.
I think it's obvious which side I fall in to.
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what "skill" should a whisperer roll to be able to whisper in someones ear whilst standing in the open away from any carts, trees, large rocks and other forms of cover / shadow production in order to counter a sneaking character hiding behind that blade of grass?
A good question! I can think of only one answer: The Whisperer doesn't roll. Anyone can speak almost unhearable.
However: The Whisperee should roll Listen!
So the Whisperer sets a DC. The Whisperee gets take20 and a +20 bonus or so for having his ear right there (which seems to me in the right ball park). Anyone else can roll Listen to overhear it.
In that case then given that the "whisper radius" is exactly the same for every character, race and class, as it is a mechanical function of the game engine and not in any way based on the actions of the whisperer, what "skill" should a whisperer roll to be able to whisper in someones ear whilst standing in the open away from any carts, trees, large rocks and other forms of cover / shadow production in order to counter a sneaking character hiding behind that blade of grass?
Nothing, because in the DnD system, the way you whisper is then assigned a static DC that the listener then rolls their skill against. In this hyperspecific, hyperbolic, theoretical situation, the PC would then roll. This is the basis for a great deal of interaction in DnD - the DC vs the Skill. see: PHb 3.5, Skills, Listen
Next.
PS: A real Amian Answer: This is the (hyperspecific hyperbolic) situation in which you use Tells, but 99% of the time, it is simply "two people talking quietly" and not "two people alternately cupping their hands back ad forth to each others ears in broad daylight in the middle of town". Normally people get an inn room a thta point if the need for privacy persists.
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.. Is this really that broken? Sure, there's no "whispering" skill. But the people trying to be quiet have spot, listen, and other means to ensure that their quiet conversation is indeed private. Furthermore, they get bonuses to those detection skills based on how close the sneaking character is. There are other situational modifiers too, such as being behind a character (For spot) or having objects between the character (Listen).
Furthermore, high detection skills always beat high hiding skills-- so it already is in the favor of the 'defender', so long as he or she has invested in rooting out sneaks. For a character to be comfortable sneaking against an opponent, he needs to have at least 20 points of Hide and Move Silently more than the potential detector (And this isn't counting any situational modifiers, like a character moving or being behind a spotter). If he even has only 19 points higher, in the course of maybe a few minutes of eavesdropping he'll be detected (By the simple act of the detection phase continuously rolling a d20). Remember also that every skill has a +50 gear/spell cap, and that for every bonus feat one could take to enhance their hiding and moving silently, a person could take just as many (If not more) for detection.
Furthermore the detector has an advantage over the sneaking character because the sneaking character must maximize both Hide and Move Silently (To prepare for both types of detectors) while any given detector need only focus on one of the two detection skills.
And that's just skill vs skill advantages that favor the detector. There are also easily accessible auto-win abilities that reveal sneaks. There are also failsafe methods of losing someone who might be following you in hiding.
And -then- let's talk about the RP punishment from being caught eavesdropping on a private conversation. My characters have on more occasions than one been trapped inside a private house with hostile necromancers. I've also had characters open fire on sneaks they've detected, as well. Not only is the eavesdropper in immense physical threat often times, but if he's discovered word will spread and his ability to operate in the future will also be severely diminished.
All this talk makes it seem like the sneaking character is like... taking advantage of players by abusing a mechanic, when the very mechanics are working against their favor in literally every instance. There are so, so many available ways to detect or prevent a hiding character who might be able to overhear your whispering.
Last edited by Mr. Hackums on Sat, Jul 18 2015, 21:01 PM, edited 1 time in total.
It's not really a debate. When the DM team is ready, they'll issue a final statement on it and that will be that. But there will be (and already are) other players disgruntled with the way that's turning out, and may or may not try to argue that the ruling isn't justified.
Which is why I said what I did.
As cool as it might be, too, I also don't think that the listen-skill helping with a radius for listening will do anything in favor of the defender. Because as long as they're trying to whisper to another person and not just themselves, someone else will still have to be able to hear it. And if the intended target can get close enough to hear it, so can a rogue! I mean.. I still think it'd be hella cool to stand in Cordor square as some blind listen monk and hear the whispers of the city from afar. But it'd probably just be sorely resisted by the camps that already think the defenders are less-favored.
Isn't this one of those WYSIWYG things? If you can see the whisper, you heard. If you can't, you didn't. Seems pretty straight forward.
I've never used tells for any sort of IC, except for very specific situations. Sending up signals to coordinate attacks, or Sendings, are the only real examples that come to mind off the top of my head.
Eh. Personally I am in favor of leaving the whisper system just as it is. With shadowdancers threatening to pop out of every pot plant, I don't think we need any more barriers to trying to communicate privately. A lot of players already show a strong level of caution when talking quietly, like suddenly shifting into umberhulk form to look for any eavesdroppers.
I think a listen/whisper radius would be counter-productive. Having RPed with a strong number of groups based on subterfuge, the more the mechanics try and make spying on people easier, the more shut-in those groups become and end up taking their conversation somewhere more quiet. I have seen a endless amount of players shut-out because of that.
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Last edited by Drakos_Vek on Mon, Jul 20 2015, 14:34 PM, edited 3 times in total.
Aren't there many many other things we could work on before we get to adjusting the whisper radius?
Precisely this.
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Drakos_Vek wrote:
Eh. Personally I am in favor of leaving the whisper system just as it is. With shadowdancers threatening to pop out of every pot plant, I don't think we need any more barriers to trying to communicate privately. A lot of players already show a strong level of caution when talking quietly, like suddenly shifting into umberhulk form to look for any eavesdroppers.
I think a listen/whisper radius would be counter-productive. Having RPed with a strong number of groups based on subterfuge, the more the mechanics try and make spying on people easier, the more shut-in those groups become and end up taking their conversation somewhere more quiet. I have seen a endless amount of players shut-out because of that.
I understand the concern for inclusiveness but in regards to subterfuge based activities, being inclusive means opening yourself to a LOT of *$@#%$ risk. I know when I carried out a specific mission with Tuomas in the further past (one of his first acting for the Greater good) , Tuomas really had to be careful who he trusted, and he didn't have near the connections he did. THankfully in the end, the mission went off to plan and all went well.
Hell, I've put my own damn foot in my mouth when it comes to inclusiveness but now I see that the IC vs. OOC balance and nescessity for very carefully minding who you choose to work with when it comes to certain endeavours is important.
This all being said, having to go elsewhere is an inherent nescessity to such work. It could however serve as a detriment in some cases not just for the reasons you have cited Drakos.
It is kind of unfortunate you can't emulate in-ear-whispering, without it being OOC. I always found it rather silly that people can hide right next to you, if for example, you're in the middle of an open field in broad daylight.
To me, that's an example of something that wouldn't fly in PnP (as you generally have to plan what objects you're hiding behind). But in NWN, the hide system is pretty bland to say the least, and often gives spies access to extremely private conversations with almost minimal effort.
When the only notable alternative to this, is turning into a freakish underdark creature, then somehow pretend to learn how their antennae work in the span of .5 seconds, you point at them and go "THE SPY IS THERE!", or well, you get the picture. That, of course, and there are some characters you just wouldn't be able to spy on as easily as people do it on Amia. For example, special characters with heightened eyesight and / or smell.
And yeah, I do play a sneak, I am aware of how you require both H/MS, versus just listen OR spot, but lets be real here. Everyone has multiple sets of gear.. and the "I'll stand freakishly close to you" set doesn't even need fort save or whatever, thanks to the leniency of the PvP rules, even if you did get miraculously spotted with your 110+ H/MS.
It seems like minimal effort, that's true, but I kind of feel like that's well balanced (overcompensated for, actually) by how preposterously easy it is to get an automatic win button against stealthers. An ancient argument, I know, but a stealther with +1,000 Hide/MS is infallibly beaten every time by a 1st-level wizard with a pseudodragon familiar, or anyone with access to wyrmling or umberhulk shape, which (via scrolls/wands and UMD) is almost every character ever rolled. I hesitate to even mention it here, because it's an argument for another thread, and one that's been quite thoroughly beaten to death with nailbats and then its corpse raised into zombiedom and beaten to death again, but "stealthing is too easy" is not a viable argument. But pretty please, if we want to argue that point, let's start another thread for it. (For the twentieth time.)
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Sure. Yeah. But I think some of what I'm saying really still applies to the earlier discussion in this thread.
Hypothetically speaking, if you are spying on someone you have absolutely nothing to lose, even if you get caught, really, which is why I said what I said, mostly. This of course, is off-balance with what should actually be the case; thus, you have people sending tells. (See, problem A.)
I'd say a stealther has exactly the same thing to lose if she gets caught as does a whisperer if she gets spied on: maybe your plans get blown, maybe your secrets get outed, and maybe you're stuck with some RP of a type you might not have planned for.
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Everyone can argue how it's all the fault of sneakers all they want. I'b be happy for some sort of penalty to the people that claim they had a "whispered" conversation IC, but did so in a large group of people using tells.
One of the reasons I don't play a sneak anymore is a certain type of player on the server. One day I was tracking two players in the UD with a sneak. After successfully following them for almost 30 minutes, they rented a house and went in. Expecting to glean some really good info, I managed to slip in and avoid detection by the scroll empowered Umberhulk and settled in a corner to eavesdrop. After almost 90 minutes of absolutely no activity, no talking, no whispers, not even any emotes, I found out from another player on Skype that they had been discussing "IC'ly" their plans in tells and on another skype channel.
Naturally I killed them both and left. I haven't had the desire to play a serious sneak since. If we're going to make a show of differentiating IC and OOC action, then a whispered conversation should be in the whisper channel. If need be, grab a DM to adjudicate when that shouldn't be the case.
_________________ Thine taste in horrid footwear not withstanding, I did not say that thou were in fact an idiot, I merely implied that such things were self evident.
At first, Bravo, I thought that what you're describing just sounds like straight-up cheating. But then I considered it some... is what you're describing there really qualitatively any different than a couple of characters having a conversation on the forums in their faction folder? Like, I've carried on dozens of "conversations" in the Winya Council forums and the Jarl-Warden forums (when I had access to them, which I at this time do not) which I wouldn't have wanted people to "overhear." I mean sure, those "conversations" were ostensibly in the form of characters leaving physical notes for each other to read, but still, a sneaker should be able to read just as easily as to listen, right?
Now I'm kind of torn on the issue, really. If we're going to say that using the /tell channel for IC communication is verboten, shouldn't we also have to say that using any OOC means of communication at all is likewise beyond the pale? Faction forums? PMs? Emails? Would we have objected to two characters using Skype to talk to each other if those two characters didn't have their avatars in game at the moment when the conversation was taking place? I doubt it.
I'm going to have to ponder this. I may have thinked myself out of my original opinion.
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Well since I've considered the value of conducting covert raids on faction bases to acquire their copious written records I think it's fine for people to have that false sense of security.
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For Bravo's scenario I think he was a slight fault. Being he didn't ask them OOCly can he eavesdrop. He just walked in HiPings and did it. Which I think to a degree is unfair.
I disagree; it's unfair to expect him to ask permission. Once the people being listened to know OOC they're being listened to, they'll alter their RP to compensate, whether intentionally or not. If they don't know he's there IC, they shouldn't get to know he's there OOC.
(edited for spelling)
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Last edited by Liz on Mon, Jul 20 2015, 21:07 PM, edited 1 time in total.
Yep. Players have never had any compunction against wholesale copy-pasting of a faction forum without consulting with faction leaders or DMs about how those records are actually kept and secured ICly, so they aren't exactly policed heavily!
Liz, the logic problem you got yourself stuck, though you might not have a finger on it, is that forums have (or are supposed to) DMs supervising them. Skype or tells does not. That's what makes the difference for me.
EDIT: why the flying fark should a sneak have to ask OOCly to spy? Absurd! There's -more- than enough ways to counter stealth. Nothing unfair about it.
Liz, the logic problem you got yourself stuck, though you might not have a finger on it, is that forums have (or are supposed to) DMs supervising them. Skype or tells does not. That's what makes the difference for me.
Hmm... that's a strong argument.
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It's just how I've always RPed I guess. Sneak or not. I ask permission if it's anything like that. Being gathering information, possible PvP, e.t.c. Now I'm not saying I metagame and the like. I don't alter RP when I find out something OOCly like someone's spying. But I just always ask permission so players don't get irritated or agitated someone's possibly spoiling IC plots.
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Liz wrote:
At first, Bravo, I thought that what you're describing just sounds like straight-up cheating. But then I considered it some... is what you're describing there really qualitatively any different than a couple of characters having a conversation on the forums in their faction folder? Like, I've carried on dozens of "conversations" in the Winya Council forums and the Jarl-Warden forums (when I had access to them, which I at this time do not) which I wouldn't have wanted people to "overhear." I mean sure, those "conversations" were ostensibly in the form of characters leaving physical notes for each other to read, but still, a sneaker should be able to read just as easily as to listen, right?
Now I'm kind of torn on the issue, really. If we're going to say that using the /tell channel for IC communication is verboten, shouldn't we also have to say that using any OOC means of communication at all is likewise beyond the pale? Faction forums? PMs? Emails? Would we have objected to two characters using Skype to talk to each other if those two characters didn't have their avatars in game at the moment when the conversation was taking place? I doubt it.
I'm going to have to ponder this. I may have thinked myself out of my original opinion.
I think what you're looking at there is an issue with the faction base system we use, rather than a justification for IC conversation that are 100% un-overhearable.
I don't think someone should have to ask permission to eavesdrop either. That's really going down a road to a very non-fun multiplayer game.
For Bravo's scenario I think he was a slight fault. Being he didn't ask them OOCly can he eavesdrop. He just walked in HiPings and did it. Which I think to a degree is unfair.
The point of eavesdropping is that the victims don't know.
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TormakSaber wrote:
LibrisMortis_666 wrote:
For Bravo's scenario I think he was a slight fault. Being he didn't ask them OOCly can he eavesdrop. He just walked in HiPings and did it. Which I think to a degree is unfair.
The point of eavesdropping is that the victims don't know.
I found it avoids a lot more drama to OOC ask. But that's just me.
It's just how I've always RPed I guess. Sneak or not. I ask permission if it's anything like that. Being gathering information, possible PvP, e.t.c. Now I'm not saying I metagame and the like. I don't alter RP when I find out something OOCly like someone's spying. But I just always ask permission so players don't get irritated or agitated someone's possibly spoiling IC plots.
I think it's fine that you do this, Libris-- it's a very personal decision that you've made based on your own code of ethics-- but it would be unfair to expect others to do the same. We are perfectly within our rights to try to keep In-character activities (Even such as spying or PvP) strictly in-character. Sometimes, I've found, by involving any OOC into it can blow up in my face instead. People who I thought would be able to handle the loss end up biting my hand, and it's no good for anyone. I'm all supportive of fostering a positive atmosphere between players who play characters in conflict with one another. But I find it's healthier to talk about it after the fact, rather than before (If you have to at all!)
Quote:
And yeah, I do play a sneak, I am aware of how you require both H/MS, versus just listen OR spot, but lets be real here. Everyone has multiple sets of gear.. and the "I'll stand freakishly close to you" set doesn't even need fort save or whatever, thanks to the leniency of the PvP rules, even if you did get miraculously spotted with your 110+ H/MS.
It doesn't usually, no. But I'm not really sure that a gear-set point provides us with any real meat in the argument. Are you trying to say that the character's build is what determines his level of consequence? You can technically cram it all into one gear-set, even. I've had a sneak character with 110 Hide/MS, 108 Spot, and 36 Fort, and proper dex AC all in the same gearset. But every time I was following someone into a private house, my heart was always racing. And though you picked up on one point of my general Stealth vs Detection argument, you still seem to have the opinion that it requires miracle-level luck to detect the sneak-- when I've demonstrated how skills, items, and abilities each have an advantage over stealth. The splitting of skills for the sneak compared to the detector isn't always seen in gearsets, but more often in epic feats selected. And in truth, it's not that big of a difference. The biggest skill-based difference from sneak to detector is that in order for a sneak to feel completely comfortable hiding from someone, he has to have +20 hide/ms over the opponent's detection skill. Because if not, he's going to be discovered in a matter of minutes. It's just as easy (If not moreso) to get 100+ spot as it is to get 110 Hide. And that 98-100 spot character will always be sneakproof.
Maybe your experience differs from mine when it comes to consequences for eavesdroppers. I've had immediate Wails dropped on my rogues, I've had a character sacrificed to a cult, one held at knife point and interrogated. From good guys and bad guys alike. I've also discovered sneaks eavesdropping and responded with a wide range of reactions-- from outright murder, gruesome sacrifice, to recruitment!
Still, even though I'm a frequent sneak player, I definitely sympathize with the frustration that someone could be right behind you and unseen in an open field. It's silly, and I have no real justification for it rather than simply saying "It's the way our bland sneak system works. " I -am- more okay with still doing it, though, because I understand how the disadvantages to sneaking are.
I would be more open to trying to fix and make our hiding system more appropriate, but only if those working on it appropriately understand the current balance. And if the fixes made aren't one-sided. There's a looot to be changed if it's going to be improved at all, but it would have, have, have, have to be approached more objectively than it is here.
I've mathed it out in my head time and time again, and the only conclusion I can come to is that D&D is broken, and any system will always have that "Spotter always wins" or "Sneak always wins". Amia is currently at "Spotters always wins" because "Sneak always wins" makes people all kinds of angry.
I mean, as a player of sneaks and spotters alike, I don't personally mind the challenge of "Spotter always wins." It makes my gut clench whenever I'm following someone in a home, and I enjoy that feeling. It makes the rewards of espionage feel all that more rewarding.
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So, if Amia is 'Spotter Always Wins', which it is, why do people feel the need to communicate outside IC methods if they want to preserve their IC privacy?
I think honestly a lot of folks don't really realize how unfavorable it is for the sneak. I mean, there are a ton of IC lessons and tutors that instruct sneaks-- but there aren't really any similar ways to be ICly educated against sneaking! And that kinda makes sense. Spies enjoy keeping their trade secrets.. well, secret.
And even if you do know how tough it is, the feeling of general insecurity can very easily make folks want to be more secure. Especially if they thought it wasn't breaking any rules.
I found it avoids a lot more drama to OOC ask. But that's just me.
This consideration is all that I ask and I suspect all anyone really wants, because it turns a potential pvp munchkin meathead trying to abuse a game engine not designed for pvp of any kind into a fellow player and we assume fellow RPer looking to collaborate on some story telling.
Sadly many players and DMs do not get that point.
I mean really I can't role play my characters actions because the game engine says that when I whisper at my quietest directly into someones ear at a range of 1 inch that I am actually talking at a normal level and can be heard from 20 feet away, but its in grey text so its "OK"...
#roleplaybeforerollplay
P.S. I am not sure how "unfavourable" it is for a class skill stacked up with gear vs in most cases a cross class skill not stacked up with gear, I do not think I have ever seen a blinky character mincing about trying to stealth except for those comical occasions when a War Knight does it in full plate for RP giggles, I'm fairly certain that someone trying to be a sneak is more than capable mechanically of easily evading being spotted by someone not skilled and geared as a spotter.
Furthermore I would consider it massively cheesy if without due cause a character were to be hanging around Bendir in full spotting gear whilst doing the shopping or chatting with friends. (especially as its likely that that same gear would cosmetically look exactly the same as their fighting gear and so they could switch OOCly without doing so ICly for moar cheese)
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So now stealth is lumped in with Vital touch's endless crusade against people that play the game. Lovely. There's plenty of chatroom RP out there if NWN isn't your cup of tea.
I'd actually be -extremely- annoyed to receive the OOC request for permission. All you would have accomplished is A; putting me into an annoying position of having to second guess everything to make sure I'm not changing my dialogue with the knowledge it's being overheard, and B; made it so that my usual anti-stealth measures look a heck of a lot like cheating. Immersion all the way please, no OOC!
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NinjaClarinet wrote:
So now stealth is lumped in with Vital touch's endless crusade against people that play the game. Lovely. There's plenty of chatroom RP out there if NWN isn't your cup of tea.
I'd actually be -extremely- annoyed to receive the OOC request for permission. All you would have accomplished is A; putting me into an annoying position of having to second guess everything to make sure I'm not changing my dialogue with the knowledge it's being overheard, and B; made it so that my usual anti-stealth measures look a heck of a lot like cheating. Immersion all the way please, no OOC!
I can see your point. Happy I don't play a sneaker to spy on you lol.
I'm fairly certain that someone trying to be a sneak is more than capable mechanically of easily evading being spotted by someone not skilled and geared as a spotter.
Usually, yes. But that sneak invested skills in hiding, while the other person did not skill or gear to be a spotter. So.. why should that person be able to spot an epic sleuth? Why has he earned the ability?
But even that un-invested, un-geared individual has many tools available to instantly detect a sneak with really only luck available to the sneaking player to evade that in time. Quickly, he has to search a room for some object to hide behind (A measure that can be simply defeated by a Polymorphed detector simply moving around the object anyway).
It's not just that the argument doesn't really apply-- but that it's also exactly reversed.
~~~
Edit: Unless you meant that an unskilled Sneak vs an Unskilled Detector would result in the sneak winning. In this case still, the detector holds every advantage described above. If you're trying to say that an unskilled, but geared sneak tries to go undetected against an unskilled, ungeared detector then.. sure I guess he could get 50 points in hide/ms and hide from the guy. But the only advantage that sneak has is that the detector doesn't know he's being spied on. If the detector wanted to avoid that situation, he would simply gear for it? An unskilled, geared detector wouldn't be able to detect an invested, epic sneak with skills alone (He would have to rely on all the available spells, items, wands, scrolls, summons). But.. well... an uninvested character shouldn't be able to foil a character who invested in sneaking.
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Faded Wings wrote:
Yet another amazing instance of NWN not being accurate to what would lorewise be applicable from your example!
Playing devil's advocate: Tremor Sense doesn't care about Line of Sight, so there's no way they'd of missed you! :
Accurate how? And tremorsense is beatable when not used properly, it's not an auto win mechanic.
LibrisMortis_666 wrote:
For Bravo's scenario I think he was a slight fault. Being he didn't ask them OOCly can he eavesdrop. He just walked in HiPings and did it. Which I think to a degree is unfair.
As Ninjaclarinet pointed out, once you have certain OOC information, it is virtually impossible to act as if you didn't have that information. While certain situations should require permission from all players involved, forcing OOC information making it more difficult to RP without metagamming should be avoided at all costs. It always amazed me how even really good players all the sudden changed their habits the second they got a tell that an assassin was targeting them. For the player, it is then immpossible to not take into account that you're going to get attacked pretty soon and not take steps.
In addition, in my experience, a majority of players are psychotically paranoid of being spyed upon to begin with making my actions irrelevant. Except the griefing of two AFK players that is.
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One of the reasons to play NWN is exactly to let a computer handle some of the mundane checks and rolls that get annoying to keep track of. It's pretty crazy how many of those rolls it handles, and sometimes it goes a bit overboard (6 spot checks a second, for example). But that still doesn't create a reason to go around the game. If a character had a way to simply ignore those spot/listen checks, you'd most definitely call it cheating, so why is ignoring the whisper mechanic any less?
Also, for clarity, the whisper channel travels 2.5 meters, while the talk channel travels 20 meters. You really have to be right on top of someone to hear them whisper.
I'd take the argument of cross-class skill investment more seriously if 15 of the 23 classes and PRCs didn't have access to either spot or listen, and you couldn't save skill points from level to level. It may even be more, with Amia modifications. The class combinations that don't have one class with access to either spot or listen are a very small group.
Even cross classed, with gearing and magic ANY character can reach 66 in either spot or listen, without even a wisdom mod. Which is enough to spot 100% of the time anyone that isn't extremely dedicated to sneaking. The sneaker *has* to reach 87. Even with full gear, giving +50, that's another 37 they have to come up with (so -at least- full level dedication plus a good dex mod). Do you realize an amplify potion alone gives you +20?
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And if the intended target can get close enough to hear it, so can a rogue! I mean.. I still think it'd be hella cool to stand in Cordor square as some blind listen monk and hear the whispers of the city from afar. But it'd probably just be sorely resisted by the camps that already think the defenders are less-favored.
" I -am- more okay with still doing it, though, because I understand how the disadvantages to sneaking are.