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I'll start the discussion, but this thread is meant as a way to incorporate elven high magic on Amia.

I personally see this as a tool to get people interested in role-playing elves. If NPC groups actually use it, that would be awesome.... but I don't think they do.

Players seem to be interested in it, and I really don't think it's because of power. I think it's because it sounds elven, and people that like elven role-play and things that sounds elven.

We have plenty of factions doing world-changing things, why can't we have a faction (or two or three) that does the same thing, putting in the same amount of time effort and resources, except they call it "elven high magic" instead of "a building project"?

The main arguments I've seen against Elven High Magic is that it's too powerful. This argument makes no sense to me, since they would just be doing things other factions do, except they call the way there "Elven High Magic."

What's the difference? The name. That's pretty much all.... and names mean a hell of a lot. If you don't think names mean a lot, just rename everyone on Amia Vuz'lyn, and be done with it.

High Magic isn't simply 'Elven magic' as in rolling an elven wizard, it is a specialised and highly secretive discipline taught only by other High-Mages and their selection process is even more picky.

FRCS wrote:

In ancient times, before the Weave took on its present form, the rules of magic were different. Many beings experimented with powerful dweomers that produced larger and much more potent effects than are possible today. Many minor and major artefacts date back to these times.

High Magic is capable of literally murdering gods and shattering continents. It is way, way, waaaaaaaay too powerful to be in a PC's hands.

Liz wrote:

High Magic is capable of literally murdering gods and shattering continents. It is way, way, waaaaaaaay too powerful to be in a PC's hands.

No PC's have murdered a god or shattered a continent here? And, btw, everything PC's do project wise has to be approved by DM's anyway...

No PCs have ever slain true gods or destroyed entire continents, no.

The argument that it's too powerful is preposterous. High mages are limited in what they can cast alone, firstly. Secondly, they're limited in what they can cast at all, until they're deemed ready to proceed to another tier of power. Which takes decades. The lower high magic spells aren't capable of anything more than a 9th level spell, or perhaps a weak epic spell. It's those lower tiers that I believe should be requested by someone, and allowed.

If anything, a point brought up by Naiv is a more sufficient argument against the inclusion of high magic, that being the time it takes to even be able to cast a single spell using it. The age an elf must reach before beginning the study of high magic is 300. It takes a very long time after that beginning to cast the first spell. I don't believe it would be improbable to have elves that old on Amia. I do believe it would be improbable to have elves that old begin at level 2 when trying to be high mages, considering they have to be powerful mages in their own right before the study of high magic even begins.

Because of the potential for entirely too much power being placed in a PC's hands, to my knowledge, a high mage PC has never existed. This is the basic reasoning behind a fully psionic PC not having been approved before either. The chance for that power to be abused is simply too great.

However, psionic abilities HAVE been approved. Just not all of them. Therein lies my argument. I don't think the lower levels of high magic shouldn't be attainable based on the premise that they're too powerful. Now, the fact that they can't be logically reached on the Amian timeline, that I can buy.

There's a handful of players lurking around who obtained the ability to use arcanum style blood magic from the last megaplot. Blood magic being a magic capable of combatting gods and slaughtering cities.

If elves wanna learn to do a kind of magic that's that kind of powerful, by all rights they should be allowed to try. Just keep in mind that most of this sort of mega-magic seems to have been treated (at least as far as I've observed) to be more akin to the ability to cast 'dispel plot device' than it is to have any sort of real mechanical advantage in combat.

Murkoph wrote:

There's a handful of players lurking around who obtained the ability to use arcanum style blood magic from the last megaplot. Blood magic being a magic capable of combatting gods and slaughtering cities.

If elves wanna learn to do a kind of magic that's that kind of powerful, by all rights they should be allowed to try.

I think this is my point... and really the point of all progressive role-play. Sometimes the path to the goal is the best part. Having elves running around role-playing the practice of High Magic is just... the way things should be, in my mind.

davis114 wrote:

The argument that it's too powerful is preposterous.

I mean seriously... Saying elven high magic is too powerful is saying that the request system is too powerful... It's saying role-play is too powerful... It's saying something ... silly... Which I do! from time to time! But... seriously... role-playing a high magic caster is not too powerful.

I mean, worst case scenario, we (or I) would need to write out own handbook of rules for elven high magic for Amia that gets approved by the DM team. It wouldn't be that big of a deal, though it would take some work and time.

Looking at the words "Elven High Magic" and just saying "No" is.... LOL.

In what way are you wanting it implemented? Mechanically? And if you did have access to it IC, what would you do with it?

Murkoph wrote:

There's a handful of players lurking around who obtained the ability to use arcanum style blood magic from the last megaplot.

To note: they lost the ability to use blood magic with the end of the plot, as blood magic was deemed by the DM team as a whole to be too powerful and unsuitable for PCs to be able to continue to use. Any use of blood magic by PCs was pretty much only in the scope of a

Murkoph wrote:

dispel plot device'

and wasn't able to be used outside the bounds of the specific plot that introduced it.

Just to bear in mind in frame of this discussion of high magic, since it was brought up.

Yossarin wrote:

In what way are you wanting it implemented? Mechanically? And if you did have access to it IC, what would you do with it?

Well, if there was going to be a new elven community created, I would enjoy it if Elven High Magic played a part in its creation. If there were changes to Wynya, I would like it if Elven High Magic played a part in that.

If I was going to role-play a high elven mage, I would just like to be part of the rituals, but a few ideas come to mind.

Like if the elven community discovered they were under imminent attack from some outside source, high elven magic could be used to stall the attack, prevent the attack, or help defend against the attack. I think the most "elven" example I've ever heard of relating to this is creating a vast illusion that makes the elven community appear to be an unsettled forest instead of a large city.

If an elven community becomes corrupted by spies or interlopers, it would be nice, and very "realistic" as far as an elven community goes, if the elders could expend the resources, time, and energy to perform a high magic ritual to discover the source of the corruption. Sure, they could do it the mundane way, by role-playing investigators, but that just doesn't seem like the elven way to me... It would make more sense if the elders used high magic to know for certain where the corruption started and/or who the interlopers are.

Mostly, I would like to see Elven High Magic used to solidify a sense of security that individuals living in elven communities are supposed to have anyway. If I was role-playing a mundane fighter/soldier, it would be nice for him/her to know that the orders given to him were backed by knowledge gained from elven high magic. It also gives a sense of "thoroughness" to an elven community to have magic within it that is as thorough as Elven High Magic.

You know, elves always struck me as the biggest mary sues in the setting, and this... isn't really dispelling that notion for me. Becoming invasion-proof is bad enough, but at least that's only feasible against DM-driven antagonists (because, let's face it, there's never going to be an evil faction powerful enough to mount that sort of attack). Getting an "Intrigue-B-Gone"-button against any sort of infiltration, though? Really? Do you really want to neuter any and every threat towards Winya like that?

good luck writing up an request for a elven high mage, cause you cant learn it in this servers lifespan, it takes centuries from what i understand

Larsaan wrote:

You know, elves always struck me as the biggest mary sues in the setting, and this... isn't really dispelling that notion for me. Becoming invasion-proof is bad enough, but at least that's only feasible against DM-driven antagonists (because, let's face it, there's never going to be an evil faction powerful enough to mount that sort of attack). Getting an "Intrigue-B-Gone"-button against any sort of infiltration, though? Really? Do you really want to neuter any and every threat towards Winya like that?

also this, very much this, any threat to winya including an entire attack from every other city could easily be stopped by elven high magic

Nivo wrote:

Murkoph wrote:

There's a handful of players lurking around who obtained the ability to use arcanum style blood magic from the last megaplot.

To note: they lost the ability to use blood magic with the end of the plot, as blood magic was deemed by the DM team as a whole to be too powerful and unsuitable for PCs to be able to continue to use. Any use of blood magic by PCs was pretty much only in the scope of a

Murkoph wrote:

dispel plot device'

and wasn't able to be used outside the bounds of the specific plot that introduced it.

Just to bear in mind in frame of this discussion of high magic, since it was brought up.

Oh thank God, lol

HAAAAAAAAIIIIIIII NEEEEEEVVVVVOOOOOOOHHHHHHH

Okay. I'm going to have to provide some examples here. Once again, I'm not talking about some all powerful castings to change to the course of events or the fate of Winya. What I'm talking about is a flavor change between elves and humans when it comes to using the Weave. It would be very, very easy to set a limit on what could be done, since there are a ton of IC limits on the usage of high magic in the first place, all over canon lore.

Only the lowest form of high magic, Rituals of Solitude, can be cast by a single high mage. And only the lowest forms of THAT magic should be considered in a spell request. There are still forms of those Rituals that would be too powerful for PC's to really wield here on Amia, and that's totally fine. But there are some uses of high magic that are well within the scope of power for a PC.

That's why the power level discussion for high magic is preposterous. It's easily regulated. As to the actual learning curve? That's the reason I don't think anyone could actually successfully become a high mage on Amia. And nobody in favor of high magic being a part of the elven culture on Amia has been able to show me an answer for that. So there you have it.

This discussion was begging to be had, though. I mean, basically the elven mage school in Winya is called the Selu'taar. That word literally means high mage, or "art's disciples." I got all excited when I first came back and saw that, then when I went in to read it, it's just a normal mage school. That just kind of killed my elven rp senses a bit.

Larsaan wrote:

You know, elves always struck me as the biggest mary sues in the setting, and this... isn't really dispelling that notion for me. Becoming invasion-proof is bad enough, but at least that's only feasible against DM-driven antagonists (because, let's face it, there's never going to be an evil faction powerful enough to mount that sort of attack). Getting an "Intrigue-B-Gone"-button against any sort of infiltration, though? Really? Do you really want to neuter any and every threat towards Winya like that?

Keep in mind that most high magic can only be performed once or twice in the lifetime of any one particular elf. On Amia, this translates into creating a character that role-plays as already completing their training as a high magic acceptance and training, role-plays the gathering of personnel and magical components to perform a ritual, then does nothing but a ritual for a few days or a week, then, that's it. No more high magic for them, but they are still an elven high mage, they just can't perform the rituals anymore.

I don't think it's really a button against any sort of infiltration. It is more of a very expensive button, that takes a really long time to press, against a kind of infiltration that is worth using all those resources to combat.... once in the lifetime of the elves involved in the ritual.

davis114 wrote:

That's why the power level discussion for high magic is preposterous. It's easily regulated.

It's easily regulated at first, sure, but this is the sort of area where power-creep and slippery-slope arguments apply. It's far more sensible to just draw a bright line at the top of the slippery slope and just say, "nope. This is not a thing for PCs."

joe15552 wrote:

Keep in mind that most high magic can only be performed once or twice in the lifetime of any one particular elf. On Amia, this translates into creating a character that role-plays as already completing their training as a high magic acceptance and training, role-plays the gathering of personnel and magical components to perform a ritual, then does nothing but a ritual for a few days or a week, then, that's it. No more high magic for them, but they are still an elven high mage, they just can't perform the rituals anymore.

Cite a source for this?

Liz wrote:

Cite a source for this?

http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/vortexsha ... magic.html

This only mentions limited lifetime castings under "Rituals of Solitude."

But I don't see why we can't put that limitation on the High Magic Seed itself. It would help the DM's regulate the spell usage better.

Sorry, I should have clarified "cite a canon source," not just some random dude's homebrew website.

Limited lifetime castings are compelled into the more powerful Rituals, though. The lesser ones are the ones we'd be focusing on, and could theoretically be instilled on Amia.

I totally get that argument, Liz. I just think it applies to a time when the playerbase was much larger than it is now.

If it were to be done, here's how I'd see it being done. You'd have to force the PC to take PrC High Mage levels. The PC would have to be a fully leveled wizard; no other levels but wizard and High Mage. You'd have to enforce certain things on that PrC, such as ESF: Concentration in order to mimic the skills of a High Mage.

Then, the PC would be allowed to select High Magic spells, in place of epic spells or 9th circle spells, depending on their power. They can't surpass the power of currently selectable epic spells, in order to maintain balance. And no High Magic spells will be allowed to be cast PnP style, or to control a plot without -express- DM permission. Which I don't see coming, because of that very notion of a slippery slope.

The IC reasoning: After the loss of yet more high mages during the Crusade, Evermeet has decreed that the use of High Magic on Faerun is to be strictly monitored. Any high mages wishing to progress past the point of the Rituals of Solitude must return to Evermeet to do so. This is to avoid attention being brought to their presence from outside the Quessir, thereby protecting their Art, particularly if any mistakes are made in the casting.

Something like that is what I'm saying. I just find it doable. Now, with scripting down, it's really NOT doable at the moment. But I do think it bears consideration. There are some super cool Rituals that would just shine in elven rp on Amia. Most of them aren't incredibly powerful, at least not more so than what a powerful mage can reach through just normal use of the Weave. In fact, there are only one or two that are even usable in combat.

davis114 wrote:

Most of them aren't incredibly powerful, at least not more so than what a powerful mage can reach through just normal use of the Weave. In fact, there are only one or two that are even usable in combat.

So then, essentially, it would just be the usual ritual casting but called 'High Magic' instead for flavor?

Naivatkal wrote:

davis114 wrote:

Most of them aren't incredibly powerful, at least not more so than what a powerful mage can reach through just normal use of the Weave. In fact, there are only one or two that are even usable in combat.

So then, essentially, it would just be the usual ritual casting but called 'High Magic' instead for flavor?

That's how I see it...

That's what I've been saying, yup. I'm not talking about god-like power here. Just elven flavor. Something to help separate and define elven rp in terms of magic use.

Flavor is something I can get behind. If it's pretty much stated that High Magic = normal ritual casting and that's it, then there shouldn't be a worry about power creep since Elven and other PCs are at the same capabilities. Hell, could even, for fun, have it so anyone that progresses further becomes a retired PC that goes off to Evermeet.

But yeah, that makes it sound a lot more reasonable.

And there's a list of canon lore rituals somewhere. I think it was in Elves of Evermeet?

Essentially, PC's could be given choices among current canonized high magic spells that don't give anything more powerful than what we already have. Give them some flavor. Or they could create their own, within certain boundaries.

I still think the PrC would need to be enforced, though. At least 10 levels of it. Along with SF: Spellcraft and SF: Concentration, plus maybe a spell focus or two to qualify for the PrC. Then maybe even ESF: Spellcraft or Concentration to qualify for high magic spells.

dosnt change that you need a preapproved high mage, likely approved for high level, and im honerstly uncertain if we can be high enough level, as it was once stated by an dm that we are not really level 30, we dont reach the power of say elminster and high mages are the arch of archmages.

In the past what the DMs have said is that we are 30 however the high-level NPCs like Elminster are scaled higher accordingly, like 40+.

Liz wrote:

High Magic is capable of literally murdering gods and shattering continents. It is way, way, waaaaaaaay too powerful to be in a PC's hands.

Ta da. This is mostly the end of the conversation.... or should be, imo!

PC's shouldn't be doing High Magic, imo. And to scale down High Magic to the point where it's just a fancy named ritual destroys the sanctity and importance of High Magic in the first place. Not to mention, the listed examples of uses seem to do more to destroy opportunities for roleplay rather than advancing it, in the name of making High Magic doable. At some point there must be a line: elven High Magic is good elf RP,yes, but at what cost? You cast Protective Plot Device, and thats the end of it. I doubt the DMs or the players involved feel very much involved after that, and then it becomes a magical arms race: the DMs must be able to neuter High Magic at awhim to properly give the PCs an adversary, at which point High Magic becomes a joke. And if it does not, then the question is raised of why only DM NPcs can break past High Magic, leaving adversary PCs out in the dust.

the solution, IMO, is specialized magic rituals developed by the PCs themselves, which will have an effect on the story and the history of the server, being directly connected to Amian Lore, and are not beheld to any High Magic standards or expectations the players, or DMs, may have. These, instead of canned High Magic, will inspire more roleplay and ground PCs in the intrigue and RP of the server better than a circle of elves screenshotting High Magic, and then the DMs saying Winya looks like an impassible forest for the next 2 months. At which point, what happens? they re cast the spell? The DMs end the event? Who knows? It doesn't seem much like a win for any side involved here. Or they cast a spell, and the DMs are then "obligated" (i use quotes here) to tell exactly who all the spies and adversaries are because of a High Magic Divination? That is a heavy handed crushing of RP, all for the sake of 'Elven Security".

I understand a desire for special Elven RP, but I don't personally believe PC High Magic to be the way to go about it. Forcing less powerful, less impressiive things to be called high Magic simply for the sake of saying "we allow High Mage PCs" is doing the concept a disservice.

TormakSaber wrote:

I understand a desire for special Elven RP, but I don't personally believe PC High Magic to be the way to go about it. Forcing less powerful, less impressiive things to be called high Magic simply for the sake of saying "we allow High Mage PCs" is doing the concept a disservice.

Fine. So can we have some non PC High Magic, please?

Still sounds like a bad idea to me. City factions are too powerful as it is, if anything they should all be made more vulnerable.

Larsaan wrote:

Still sounds like a bad idea to me. City factions are too powerful as it is, if anything they should all be made more vulnerable.

Let me get this strait, DM controlled High Magic, cast by DM controlled NPC's, that the DM team decides will be something helpful to the storyline and elven roleplay sounds like a bad idea to you?

I thought your point was that PC should be able to cast High magic? Because you now say "DM controlled High Magic, cast by DM controlled NPC's".

If we are incapable of making Winya exciting, unique, and interesting by ourselves then incorporating what would essentially be a very limited, gimmicky High Magic won't change a thing long term. It is already bad enough at times with the fact that almost any mage or cleric can toss around Wish or Miracle to 'resolve' problems in an instant.

Amarice-Elaraliel wrote:

I thought your point was that PC should be able to cast High magic? Because you now say "DM controlled High Magic, cast by DM controlled NPC's".

I began the discussion talking about PC's casting high magic, but the title of the post is "Elven High Magic Discussion", and I also talked about how nice it would be to include High Magic involvement in any changes that happen to Winya or the creation of a new Elven settlement.

Basically, I just feel like Elven High Magic is too far removed from elven role-play, and I feel it should be just as present as ancient elves are. If there are a group of NPC's that are ancient elves that are NOT practicing Elven High Magic in some capacity, I would consider that to be very odd.

We have/had NPC who can cast it. That's how the Lifestone was created. And how the city was hidden from sight in dire times twice. The last time only a few months ago.

That was never the discussion though.

Amarice-Elaraliel wrote:

We have/had NPC who can cast it. That was never the discussion though.

We just made it part of the discussion, starting now.
Can we have more NPC involvement in that capacity?

I think it would give elven PC casters someone to look up to, give enemies of the elves a reason to be afraid of them (other than being shot by 1000 arrows), give PC non-casters a sense of in-character cultural security. Also, the nature of high magic, being a ritual by several ancient elves, adds a sense of mentorship, and unity. The elven words for High Magic: Arselu'Tel'Quess, meaning Great Art of the People, just sounds like something that should be a very present piece of the lore, history, and daily life in an elven settlement. I just don't feel like it is here in that capacity on Amia.

joe15552 wrote:

Let me get this strait, DM controlled High Magic, cast by DM controlled NPC's, that the DM team decides will be something helpful to the storyline and elven roleplay sounds like a bad idea to you?

Yes. It doesn't matter if a PC or an NPC has the power, the point is that the power is available to the faction at all. If Winya ever did get into a serious conflict, the DMs would have to come up with some excuse for why they aren't just using the High Magic instawin-button.

Same way any big conflict with Tarkuul will have to have a reason why they don't just nuke everything with their Annihilators, or how any conflict with Wiltun will end up with their ridiculously huge navy curbstomping the opposition. Players have no way of dealing with that sort of power, and the factions themselves aren't going to pick a fight with each other because of mutually assured destruction.

I kind of feel like you're maybe coming at this from the wrong direction, Joe. If you think there should be a thing in Winya Ravana which is not presently there, then log in an elf and do something about it.

Hosting a forum debate on it kind of feels to me like we're either asking the DMs to wave a magic wand and fix the problem for us, or asking the DMs to preemptively confirm that we'll get what we want before even a moment's RP has been invested.

If you want High Magic, go chase it down IC.

Liz wrote:

I kind of feel like you're maybe coming at this from the wrong direction, Joe. If you think there should be a thing in Winya Ravana which is not presently there, then log in an elf and do something about it.

Hosting a forum debate on it kind of feels to me like we're either asking the DMs to wave a magic wand and fix the problem for us, or asking the DMs to preemptively confirm that we'll get what we want before even a moment's RP has been invested.

If you want High Magic, go chase it down IC.

This OOC part of the forum is meant to be a place for OOC discussion. I started this discussion, because I wanted to see how players and DM's felt about Elven High Magic OOC. I started the discussion here in a public place, because I feel other players are interested too, as well as DMs. I thought it would be cool to share ideas, thoughts and feelings, compare notes, and such.

Sorry, but that is not wrong. I'll tell you what is wrong, though: trying to find a way to discredit the entire existence of such a discussion. I have learned a lot from this discussion, and I think other people have too. That is also, not wrong. It is probably wrong to attempt to prevent the facilitation of such a discussion in which people learn things about their characters and about the game, though.

Tormak's point is solid. I suppose it would be doing the concept an injustice to water it down, just to be included on Amia.

Adavar was the High Mage in Winya, Joe. He's gone now. Even if we replaced him with another, which would be neat, there's only so much a single high mage can do.

In fact, Adavar having done what he did is probably too powerful for a single high mage. That sort of magic is generally reserved for circles of three or five, by my understanding. That might be why High Magic at its lowest levels is still viewed as an all-powerful tool.

I'm comfortable with the counterarguments against PC's holding High Magic. I still think elven magic should differ from other magic users. But I also think this won't be the way to do that. Getting after different ritual castings and custom spells IC by the Selu'taar is probably the better way to go about it.

High Magic. Mmmhhh. An elf can dream, eh? It IS the sexiest of all magic, after all!

Sure, Joe, but nothing about this thread has felt like a discussion just for its own sake, or an exploration of lore, or an opinion poll. I *love* lore discussions, and if we were in the Lore forum, I'd be all up on this like Kim on Kanye. I wouldn't dream of questioning the purpose of something like that. But this has been a discussion with a fixed agenda, not "what do you guys think" but "can we have this please." That's just a non-starter.

I think Tormak and davis just summed up my feelings about it rather nicely.

Liz wrote:

But this has been a discussion with a fixed agenda, not "what do you guys think" but "can we have this please." That's just a non-starter.

The fixed agenda I had for this discussion was to discuss Elven High Magic with other players and DM's. The question "What do you guys think?" was implied, but I actually asked "Can we have this please?" a couple times. And this wasn't a non-starter. People had things to add. You are just trying to take away. Which I appreciate, obviously, because I am defending my thread against you.

Liz wrote:

Sure, Joe, but nothing about this thread has felt like a discussion just for its own sake, or an exploration of lore, or an opinion poll. I *love* lore discussions, and if we were in the Lore forum, I'd be all up on this like Kim on Kanye. I wouldn't dream of questioning the purpose of something like that. But this has been a discussion with a fixed agenda, not "what do you guys think" but "can we have this please." That's just a non-starter.

First of all, I think I speak for the entire server when I say that we all want to see you get on something like Kim on Kanye.

But! I don't think that's entirely accurate. It was supposed to be more a discussion about how and why High Magic should be included on the server and available to PC's. We got a few counterarguments, ranging from decent to pretty damn solid. So I think it was pretty constructive.

Tormak, you actually encapsulated my feelings on this pretty well. You glorious bastard.

davis114 wrote:

First of all, I think I speak for the entire server when I say that we all want to see you get on something like Kim on Kanye.

.mpgs are available on my website for a reasonable monthly fee.

Agreed with Tormak.

I think the setting is already ridicuously high-magic, and PCs have the tendency to wield it like a cudgel. It makes having plots with any amount of mystery or intrigue nigh impossible.

Elves can already make elven flavored rituals. Not having High Magic isnt taking something away from elven RP. It's already more or less laid out in the sourcebooks that it's an NPC only device.

AlannaMolov wrote:

I think the setting is already ridicuously high-magic, and PCs have the tendency to wield it like a cudgel. It makes having plots with any amount of mystery or intrigue nigh impossible.

This.

While I'd love to have High Magic around, it's just not practical. People already use magic as the be all-end all solution for every single plot ever. Can't find someone? Scry them! Need to talk to someone right now? Sending! Have to know the answer immediately? Legend Lore!

This is really just a sneaky discussion about epic magic in general, isn't it?

AlannaMolov wrote:

I think the setting is already ridicuously high-magic, and PCs have the tendency to wield it like a cudgel. It makes having plots with any amount of mystery or intrigue nigh impossible.

I've always thought that the error was in letting PCs get to the level where they can conceivably wield high magic, rather than being frustrated at their level-reasonable agency. Some of the biggest complaints I've ever heard center around how easy it is to use magic to solve problems. Oftentimes the players are presented with problems that require magic above their caliber to solve, which doesn't make much sense from a lore perspective. If you guys don't want people playing with high magic, don't give them access to every requirement for high magic, including time.

And then on the other hand, you have this wealth of options for people to make stuff up entirely from scratch that you can't possibly accommodate for in your plots. I have purposefully avoided plots for a long time now because my primary character has an ability that I guarantee you would not like to see involved. There are people in this setting who have magical powers they have had verified by the DM team as not even being magical in the first place. All of this is because epic level is a farce on this server, good for nothing and basically a glorified level 20.

Just make epic level beyond players' reach. I would never run a D&D game with epic magic for more than just a handful of people for exactly this reason. Since the alternative is to go against the setting and pretend like you need even more ungodly power and just disregard what people already have, I'd prefer if the setting was just lower level. It would solve so many problems. #CapLevelsat20

Elven High Magic Discussion

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