AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

As a community we’ve spoken a lot about the apparent toxicity the server suffers from. In this post I am speaking purely about conflicts between players that arise from the game - that is not meant to be dismissive of staff and player conflicts, it’s simply a separate discussion (one I think we’ve had and many of the staff are now actively working to fix.)

In the last two weeks a few player conflicts have taken up literal hours of the staff’s time. And I mean hours like a second part-time job hours. There are pages and pages and pages of manuscripts and screenshots and things for us to sort through. Conflict mediation is a necessity in a community like this, but it has gotten to the point where adults more than capable of talking it out civilly amongst themselves are pulling the DM team to listen to each side scream at the other at the drop of a hat. This is not how all conflicts play out - many people are able to resolve things amicably with mediation. But the ones that are not amicably resolved take up such a disproportionate amount of resources it’s become ridiculous - and often over problems that are relatively simple and could be solved with some courteous discussion instead of immediately resorting to an OOC slapfight.

I am going to be encouraging the staff to take a more hands-off approach to conflict mediation. My hope is that if we stop being available to “fix” every little conflict, people will be forced to relearn how to deal with it on their own.

For some reason in the context of this game people tend to forget that they’re adults, who work through these sorts of conflicts in everyday life all the time without apparent issue. If you can’t interact with these people, it is fine to step away. Even if ICly your character wouldn’t, if it is causing OOC strife to you or to others, opt out of the interaction, preferably in a manner least disruptive to roleplay. Communicate with your fellow players, and actually listen when they speak back. We all have our own perspectives and reasonings. A little understanding goes a very long way.

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The second thing I wish to bring up is a relatively unexplored concept on Amia, but one I think many of us intuitively understand. Many do not, however, so I will cannibalize a rule from a fellow NWN server:

Ravenloft: PotMAlways prioritize the OOC overall enjoyment of your fellow roleplayers higher than IC. This doesn't mean that you can't ever impose negative consequences or loss - a conceivable line of events and an element of risk can be in the benefit of the general experience - but remember that we as players and DMs decide OOCly what we bring into the game, so ultimately we are responsible for it too. Never use IC as an excuse to lessen the OOC experience of others. Don't create characters that will only become a nuisance or aggravation. And when going into conflict with others, strive to make it an enjoyable experience for the player, even if it's despair and frustration for the character.

Always prioritize OOC enjoyment. I cannot stress this enough. I have seen so many situations wherein players doggedly pursue lines of conflict not to create story for others, but so that their character will “win.” This is on both sides of the alignment spectrum. At some point, and I am not sure which point or why, this basic OOC understanding - that Amia is a place for shared storytelling - got lost. I encourage players to more consciously strike a balance between what their characters would do, and the OOC enjoyment of the players you are interacting with.

Sometimes, embrace defeat. Without it, our characters, and the overall story of the server, stagnates. When you do win, make sure you do it in a way that doesn’t ostracize players OOC. Sometimes, try and be open to your characters taking risks in the spirit of generating more RP for more people. And above all, always, be respectful to your fellow players. Even if you don’t like them. It doesn’t cost a whole lot to be nice even when you don’t want to.

* applause * nicely done.

Hooray! Smart stuff.

I hope everyone thinks this way! This is why we play this game! To generate story, drama, creativity and fun. If it was supposed to be about -you- winning we wouldn't even have servers. Go play the OC.

Shoot, I must be a masochist or an attention whore or something, because I'll roleplay out anything so long as I'm getting some sweet sweet story. Isn't it better to have your character suffer or lose, than to just be safe and bored and not do anything at all? I would be very thankful.

Blue Moon wrote:

...Shoot, I must be a masochist or an attention whore or something, because I'll roleplay out anything so long as I'm getting some sweet sweet story. Isn't it better to have your character suffer or lose, than to just be safe and bored and not do anything at all? I would be very thankful.

OMG My best and favorite stories are when my PC gets /w-r-e-c-k-e-d/. I just went to Cyrene's Mill today for the first time since this happened. I literally had flashbacks, and a tiny panic attack when I stepped off of the boat there!

Just, you know... keep it within the frame of the story. We all have to make OOC concessions for the game. In short - Just be excellent to each other! <3

Thank you Alanna.

A good post. Bit ranty, but...I would recommend players avoid adversarial relations with other players. I have seen so many of my friends deconstruct their ethos doing just that, or just otherwise ruining their gameplay by assuming things of other players, or worse, getting sucked into another player's grudge. Sure, it's inevitable that people do things you do not like in or out of character. I mean, I've even seen things friends of mine have done, both IC and OOC, that make me think, "Why the hell did they just do/say that thing?" But in the end, I tend to do my best to keep it cool (these days, anyways) with most people because everyone has varying tastes. Ultimately, what it really boils down to is the maturity to recognize that this is still a game. Things like gossip are a waste of everyone's time and energy and only serve to drive people away, which is something we do not want on an aging and somewhat dying game, grudge holding ruins great RP opportunities and causes you boredom, and behaving inappropriately with someone else only serves to salt old wounds and to carve new ones. All I can really say to sum things up is, "Don't take things too personally." Everything that happens to your character is, for the most part, an opportunity for your character to grow or at the very least some kind of experience for them to remember or regret. I will admit that I have on occasion run into people who are using IC means to jab at me in some way OOC, but frankly, it's hard to respond to that angrily anymore. Not exactly a "Feel good" post, but it has been on my mind for a while now, so I apologize if it's ranty and all over the place.

Alanna! *hug*

This is disappointing to read. I like to think that we've moved past this silliness. But then maybe I just like to pretend we have and keep my head in the sand.

Sadly, Yoss, I'm the same way. Unfortunately immaturity OOC is a rampant thing lately, and really for a while now.

Let's just all freaking have fun and build epic stories together. Seriously, please?

Impose dunce caps on all the characters involved. Tell them they all have restraining orders, and are not allowed to interact with each other for 30(0?) days, IC or OOC. On pain of suspension.

I hate playing mediator between people that are ostensible adults.

I like the 'grow the fuck up' response, too, personally. However you have to recall that people nowadays are groomed to believe they are precious little snowflakes whose feelings must not be hurt and if something bothers them they must scream for mommy. And I'm only half-joking about that, it's a societal thing that creeps into IC/OOC interactions, unfortunately.

Though, Sinfar is as blooming as ever, so they seem to be doing it just fine. I hear they have a very no-go policy on too much OOC drama, and general asshattery. Which is not a bad thing at all.

Mostly I see people take IC personally, and then start to have some sort of OOC vendetta of "You wronged me!" against a player, and it gets tiring to see and deal with. And the more and more I interact with them ICly and OOCly, the more fuel it seems to add to their hatefire. Often it just leads to me ignoring them, and usually making a point of it to ignore them ICly, and never contact them OOCly. Is it letting OOC bleed IC? Yes, but it's much healthier than continually "giving" someone a "reason" to hate you. Because if you can't control the response, you can at least control your own actions and reactions. And ultimately it makes playing on this server more fun. Which, by the way, is why we're all here. FUN!

I think what usually is a problem, is people get too petty to be "The better person" and let grudges die, and refuse to foster them. The best way to end the conflict, I guess is to refuse to partake in it. Don't let yourself stoop to that level of immaturity. Negativity is draining. Which is something I'm pretty sure some of my friends see in me whenever I have issues with negativity. It makes me tired and unwilling to do anything. And what kind of community is it to have a ton of burnt-out players? (The answer is: No community) We're all a community here, I think it's best if we all try and act like it from time to time.

I think there's a lot of really good content here, but unfortunately I still think it falls under 'there's no such thing as bad press' - which is sad. I really hope it changes something, but my gut tells me it will fall flat the same as many other posts. It sounds as if Alanna means this one to be the last DM acknowledgment of petty shit, though, and then STGS's and Kobra's can be taken down at some point. And then, hopefully, finally, we can move on from the petty shit and the giving attention to petty shit and all the peoples will return gloriously in a wave of good fortune and we will shine bright like diamonds ! And the petty shit people can keep to their petty shit and we will be too shiny to notice or care except to smack em back down with shiny diamond sticks! Alright alright too far. Anyways, maybe a lock on this, Alanna? Unless you were inviting the lauds and criticisms and whatnot! It just doesn't seem like it needs any. It's a solid standalone piece of Please STFU.

AlannaMolov wrote:

Always prioritize OOC enjoyment. I cannot stress this enough. I have seen so many situations wherein players doggedly pursue lines of conflict not to create story for others, but so that their character will “win.” This is on both sides of the alignment spectrum. At some point, and I am not sure which point or why, this basic OOC understanding - that Amia is a place for shared storytelling - got lost. I encourage players to more consciously strike a balance between what their characters would do, and the OOC enjoyment of the players you are interacting with.

I have been talking about exactly this mindset for a very long time, in my experience this is nearly always coupled with a steroid pvp munchkin powerbuild, but I have been categorically told that pvp power building does not happen in Amia by several DMs and had some outrageously mean and bullying private messages sent to me for having my say.
So even though I know some of these power builders personally I have to keep telling myself that they don't exist :lol:

Obviously not all power builders are munchkins, but all munchkins are power builders.

Anyway when the the nonexistent power build issue comes up in threads it is amazing how many players and DMs will ride in to defend a players right to power build (and in the next reply deny the phenomenon even occurs) sure they sometimes refer to it euphemistically as "strong build" or words to that effect.

So I still find it somewhat confusing that threads like this still pop up from time to time decrying other peoples decrying but yet we have had for sometime now an entire area where people can discuss and swap power builds min maxing their little hearts out. This is a complete contradiction to the concept of role play and what in any sensible p&p game would result in DM intervention preventing builds that are completely sundered from the RP.

And yet we are surprised or in denial that any of this plays its part in some, maybe a lot of OOC conflicts.

I think many players and DMs are sending out mixed messages about what are the community priorities, pvp (encompassing the munchkins as well as the genuine rp build pvp) or RP. Both can't be at the top and one will have to give way to the other.

But if players are perfectly free both rules wise and culture wise to pvp power build, wrap it in a mono-molecular veneer of hostile RP to justify picking a fight they are mechanically going to win do not expect OOC conflicts to ever really be reduced, but what will be increased is the amount of people like me who avoid certain players regardless of what character they are on based on their previous OOC attitudes.

P.S. I know that this is still not the popular theory but it is merely based on my in game and forum experience of Amia, other experiences may vary and I am in no way saying these thoughts are applicable to all situations or all players, only that they are often a factor of my experiences.

AlannaMolov wrote:

Always prioritize OOC enjoyment. I cannot stress this enough.

VitalTouch wrote:

I think many players and DMs are sending out mixed messages about what are the community priorities, pvp (encompassing the munchkins as well as the genuine rp build pvp) or RP.

That's a false dichotomy. Not because of whether RP and PVP contradict each other or not, but because Alanna got it right and that option isn't even in your list.

Regards
Ts

Ts_ wrote:

VitalTouch wrote:

I think many players and DMs are sending out mixed messages about what are the community priorities, pvp (encompassing the munchkins as well as the genuine rp build pvp) or RP.

That's a false dichotomy. Not because of whether RP and PVP contradict each other or not, but because Alanna got it right and that option isn't even in your list.

Regards
Ts

What option have I missed out?

Also dichotomy means things two contrasting or opposite things, I have made no such statement.

What I am talking about the fact that there is a certain propensity of some in this community to feel that winning pvp itself is a worthy goal on this RP server and that anything that promotes their winning of pvp is their "right" and "entitlement" and that its for no one else to speak about or argue against.

I am suggesting that is it so far from most of our way of thinking that as an RP server that sure pvp has it's place as a tool of RP but that things like builds should be relevant to IC influences and experiences not soley OOC mechanical considerations with a mind of constantly provoking pvp with those they know they can rofl stomp into the ground. Back in when I started here that was referred to as griefing, but today it is a "right" to play as they want to play and damn everyone else.

Or to put it in very simple terms absent any nuance, whilst all RP can lead to PVP, not all PVP leads to RP.

I hope this clears up any confusion as to my meaning. (regardless of whether you agree with my experienced based assessment)

VitalTouch, while I realize you feel strongly about this issue, it's not exactly relevant to this topic. Prioritizing OOC enjoyment over IC absolutely encompasses PvP as well. If you want to have a discussion about the build form, please make your own thread about it - it is not related to this one.

The reason I'm not locking this is because posting announcements or locked threads without giving the community a chance to interact with them in some way means they're quicky forgotten and not absorbed very well. After a little bit I'll likely lock and sticky (or much sooner if it goes up in flames.)

AlannaMolov wrote:

VitalTouch, while I realize you feel strongly about this issue, it's not exactly relevant to this topic. Prioritizing OOC enjoyment over IC absolutely encompasses PvP as well. If you want to have a discussion about the build form, please make your own thread about it - it is not related to this one.

The reason I'm not locking this is because posting announcements or locked threads without giving the community a chance to interact with them in some way means they're quicky forgotten and not absorbed very well. After a little bit I'll likely lock and sticky (or much sooner if it goes up in flames.)

This. So much this.

As a powerbuilder and relentless defender of my right and entitlement to powerbuild, I funnily enough heartily agree with VitalTouch on the matter that powerbuilding makes no sense on an RP server. My only defence is that it's a great deal of fun, crunching those numbers and coming up with new concepts, like solving a sudoku with a creative twist. While powerbuilding certainly doesn't improve the quality of our RP, some people get a kick out of it. I'd like to think it's merely a pastime to most, making it relatively harmless in terms of RP quality, whatever that means. Also, I dislike imposing restrictions on the players. I hold the ideal of the playerbase being responsible enough to govern themselves for the most part, and rules to restrict powerbuilding would compromise that (partly encompassing the attitude of "no-one should tell me how to play my game"). If I'm not terribly wrong, I think this stands in agreement with the gist of Alanna's post.

I kind of think optimizing a build fits with a real life narrative in our setting. I.E., some characters are simply better at fighting than others. If you're making a bookwork research type, they obviously wouldn't have a lot of battle prowess. If you're making a soldier, they would.

As long as your build fits the character concept, I don't see much of an issue with that. I'm very guilty of nearly always optimizing my characters as much as I can, though I always keep the scope of rp in mind. My latest character is gimped, to an extent, because Master Scout fit his concept better than anything. That class doesn't fit the build super well, but it fits the rp.

Basically, if you're meant to be a warrior type, you should have a build that reflects that. If you're not built to be that, your build should reflect that as well.

As I said, this thread has absolutely nothing to do with the powerbuilding debate. Please make a separate thread for it or I'm gonna have to lock.

Okay

Stupid DMs...

Well said, Alanna. Agreed.

I'll just throw my two cents in here. Dealing with OOC drama is one of the most boring, weary activities out there, as well as one of the main reasons why people quietely drift away. I get shivers thinking that THIS has become the Amian DMs second job, instead of questing and storytelling, something the server could greatly benefit from.

DMs should not be disturbed for anything that is not a blatant violation of the rules, such as hefty metagame, OOCly abusive players (and no, not players telling you you're a jerk, that's an opinion at best. I'm talking about players straight out threatening or badly insulting you and can't be absolutely deal with, which happens once in a blue moon) and similar dire straits.

I also feel that this part of the community, whoever they are, should be educated to think of arguments as something rather beneficial. Arguing is not a bad thing. Disagreeing is not a bad thing. I've badly argued with some folks out there, and on Amia, that then turned out to be pretty awesome people and I consider friends to this day.

Moreover, everytime you file a complaint, unless it's really, really warranted, you will end up making a poor figure as well. Airing dirty laundry -does- come around. And almost no one is ever completely on the side of reason, unless you're dealing with a borderline insane rabid dog.

Next time you argue, do this: be really really nice, and take screenshots. Be patient and understanding, and stash the exact time, date and piece of log away. If the argument dies out, just leave it there. If they pile up and doing your best to be nice turns into yet more insults over the span of months, sometimes years - which again is a very rare occurrance - bring down the banhammer and lever look back. Makes it easier for the staff too to see the contrast between behaviours.

*Rearranges her secret CIA archive of years old player arguments. Rubs her hands and bursts into evil laughter.*

AlannaMolov wrote:

VitalTouch, while I realize you feel strongly about this issue, it's not exactly relevant to this topic. Prioritizing OOC enjoyment over IC absolutely encompasses PvP as well. If you want to have a discussion about the build form, please make your own thread about it - it is not related to this one.

My comments were more directed at power building and DM / player responses (and denials) as a source of OOC conflict, just wanted to clarify that. But I shall respect your wishes and will say no more.

It's really a shame and disappointing every single time I try to put my best foot forward, put differences aside and try to have fun only to get spit on.

PassionateShadow wrote:

It's really a shame and disappointing every single time I try to put my best foot forward, put differences aside and try to have fun only to get spit on.

This.
QFT.

It's especially saddening to be excluded from public events, due to OOC attitudes of other players as well.

Since we're being passive aggressive on the forums, I'll just be...aggressive-aggressive.

Yeah, I'm not comfortable RPing with certain players. I've seen way too much forum drama, and been involved in far too many incidences of RP being taken immediately ooc, or other metagaming. I just don't enjoy having to deal with that, so I avoid being in those situations if I can help it. I know for a fact that I'm on the receiving end of the same treatment repeatedly, and I know it sucks. I also never use the ooc channels to make passive-aggressive remarks when it happens, either, and I like to think my forum bitching is a little less transparent. You sorta...validated my whole point by doing it.

Tangentially to the whole point, yes, my character did have legitimate IC reasons to not want to put herself and her companions in a vulnerable position with a known evil/fallen character. Inclusion would have been bending character far too much in this particular regard. Rather than pursuing possible RP about it later, the players in question decided to make a remark in an ooc channel and log off, and then make the above forum posts.

Sorry if I seems like I'm calling ya'll out, but I'm gonna poke back if poked.

PassionateShadow wrote:

It's really a shame and disappointing every single time I try to put my best foot forward, put differences aside and try to have fun only to get spit on.

Don't meta, don't take IC stuff OOC. You'll like the results. I guarantee it.

This thread needs a cool down.

Cooldown period over. Remain respectful to each other, peeps. Disagreeing/arguing is fine, just don't get too personal about it.

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