I think we need to cut the desired areas on the chopping block, first. Right?

That is one thing that I think was said before; that we have too many areas for the module to be one server.

Then again, another server seems to have a ton of areas on their main server. But, then, idk what the limit is haha.

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Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming

The only way it's possible, is using NWNX Areas and dynamically loading areas based on reference files on command. This of course is asking for a significant amount of testing (if it's even compatible with the platform) to see if it's even possible, before even thinking about it, really.

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a.k.a. Audrey Zinata

We have always informed people who asked for a review of their ban of the result. Should we have missed one by accident, which I am currently unaware of, please feel free to send me a reminder.

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Posts like this are not constructive. Please refrain from attacking people like that. If the topic has become to emotionally heated for you and you feel the need to make posts like that then I suggest you take a step back from the topic and come back later on.

Msheeler, I've got to say while true I'm not sure I see the point of you calling out a post from a day and a half (and a fair few posts) ago for the sole purpose of calling it out.

I'd rather late than never, tbh. Otherwise people might read it and see that it's acceptable.

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I Am:
Derrin: 'Nothing to see here'
Beck: Hard working dwarf paladin.
Naela 'Widow': Wandering priestess.
Celinor Triellian: Paladin of Corellon.

Regardless either way, although in context that comment was responding to the other player claiming IronAngel "would crap on people who disagree with him and be completely rude" which was the initial escalation of tone anyway as well as objectively being somewhat hypocritical to claim that about a player while in the same sentence disparaging them likewise (all without getting into the subject that IronAngel while sometimes abrasive was also a damned good lore monkey and former DM and was often objectively "correct" in his disagreements with others on lore at least).

However the main point being, it was a post purely about the conduct of a post (specifically a part of it quoted out of context), directed at a particular player (rather than just being general) and without any adding to the thread itself. Which to add to the thread I see as an issue.

I acknowledge that we've been instructed not to respond to forum conduct infractions personally and instead tug on a DM's sleeve. I've been doing that, and just had to watch bitchy comments go by over the months because I shouldn't be the one policing the forum. I made an exception because otherwise it would have just slid by. Now what concerns me is that no reprimand was offered to the triggering infraction regardless. What sort of message does that send? "Better late than never" they say of msheeler's response, but I find I am still waiting on something that may never come.

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@Thanatopsis#6293

This also is inappropriate and the entire community should strive to hold ourselves to a higher standard.

We all know Iron is hard to get along with and that he is extremely argumentative. I didn't personally follow his banning because dealing with bannings is not what I do for the team, normally, but I can tell you (the community) that he was warned way beyond a reasonable amount of times to tone it down and he never did for long. Typically, once you've spoke to some one so many times about a behavior and they still refuse to change that behavior you realize that your attempts to change the behavior through explanation and disciplinary attempts simply are not going to work. Add this to the fact that it is not the DM team's responsibility to to change those behaviors and you find that there is a point at which its simply better to tell some one to go away.

Because, quite simply, I am tired of seeing people speak to each other like that here. I don't read every topic here, I simply don't have the time, but you can be sure that from now on when I see posts like those I will call them out. We all should call each other out on these, respectfully, and remind each other that it is not constructive.

I honestly am not sure what you point you are trying to get to there TGE.

See this I have an issue with, especially when then the descision for that is entirely made by DMs, the minute you start banning people for non direct offensses you have to take responsibitlity, because you are then Subjectively deciding those things as a team you go beyond the ability to say "the rules say we cant talk about bans" when you go beyond just perma banning for actual destructive players who mean to cause harm rather than ones who are are simply kind of dicks but who want to be constructive and do add to the server positively.

Futher my issue with your initial comment was two fold, firstly because it directly quoted part of what a player said which made it sound worse and also didnt at all adress the core issue of purposefully somewhat inflamatory comments led to a similar reaponse, if both are in the wrong talk to both of them. Secondly is just the issue on dwelling on such minor things, I mean honestly niether of what they said was that bad, and with them both being one off coments that had passed and likely cooled emotionally all the public posting did was draw attention to it more than it would have anyways.

Lastly is just the fact that if you read that then I assume you read other comments as well and yet your one and only comment to make as a DM was on a players slightly rude comment, honestly that is still my primary issue. That of all the things you could also have done to add at the same time with your comment you chose only to comment on the nature of a post and not any of the comments in the thread itself.


And so my initial comment remains, I dont have anything against your comment itself, but I dont know why you chose to ONLY say what you did. And honestly just found it odd and slightly disapointing that out of all the honest opinions and comments and issues brought up, it was instead minor rudeness that you found it most pressing to comment on.

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I'm not a DM, but that kind of thing is not constructive at all, and it's pretty offensive. I don't know how you read it otherwise as 'slightly rude'. That kind of comment should not be on this board. I thought we are all aspiring to act mature.

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a.k.a. Audrey Zinata

It was a respose to a rude comment about a former player/DM that was about how they were rude, it was hypocritical by definition. The trash comment was an escalation but no more than several of the proceding comments. Also irelevent to the point i was making since I persoanlly dont care about lapses in manners as long as it doesnt get out of hand. Which it really didnt.

My point is that we should show enough respect to each other that we don't use derogatory language like that.

There is nothing subjective about a permanent ban that follows many warnings and temporary bans. You make it sound as if the DM team just randomly decided to apply that ban. It was not at all random, nor was it given lightly. There is always discussion, even if the offence is blatant, and in the case of Iron there were many, many warnings and temporary forum bans.



You seem to imply here that what Iron had a habit of doing was not destructive. It was. Using language that creates an atmosphere in which numerous people no longer feel comfortable participating in a discussion is destructive to the purpose of the forums.



There were much better ways to constructively say what he wanted to say. The issue was with that part of what he said and so it was quoted. The original message was not erased and is still available for anyone to read in its full context.



You're right and upon seeing how you and others felt about that I also made a comment about Bob's post too.



I feel differently. I think a big problem with the forums, and the Amian community, is the way that some people treat others. Now, neither of those warranted a banning, warring or any other action, but I feel that pointing out to them that not only were they not being constructive, but that they were leaning towards destructive was an appropriate measure. I hope that in the future they will remember to keep their use of language more civil. I think it would do us all some good if we all strove to do just that.



Yes I read many of the posts here, I commented on the point that I had the strongest feelings about. I have every right as a member of this community to do that, the same as you do.

First off thanks for replying to the many points, appreciated. Although I will say that it seems you and I have a fundemental disagreement in what is of most importance to the health of a community, your stance seems to be that civility should come above all else, as it is negative or positive feelings that shape the discussion. Paraphasing and simplifying Im sure, but I hope along the correct lines.

My own view however is that open communication is the most important apsect, regardless of the negativity or possitivity as being constructive is seperate from being nice or polite about it, that said I do agree that civility is important and that it should be worked towards since good points are lost amid anger, but you also need to actually adress issues rather than just have everyone act nice as that doesnt address the underlying issues that cause the negative feelings that make people lose civility in the first place.

People should both be nice and actually engage in discussion about the issues and grievences that still remain.

And you do have every right to choose to say only what you did but as a member of the DM team you are also part of the body that many of the issues are with, and at the same time one of the people with the ability to actually see to effecting change on issues. So you have the right to say what you want, but there will still be a greater expectation since you chose to take on that aditional responsibility and power.

Dude, msheeler did exactly what they're supposed to do. Telling someone to calm down when they have made a post that can be even remotely considered a breach of forum etiquette, as any moderator could, as any concerned player could.

What are -you- contributing to the conversation other than doing exactly what you chided Heeler for doing? Calling them out about a single post and then arguing for the sake of arguing. That's your first posting here since the initial notes were posted.

As the OP, who crunched through tons of transcript to compile these notes and gather team discussions and impressions on those notes, how about we all stick to positive contribution to the discussion and not posting just to post? Better yet, get in game and contribute to the server and the other players.

That's all I'm going to say, because yes, it's my prerogative to do so.

Yes.



If you are not civil, your point is lost in the negativity, so civility is indeed first and foremost.



I agree.



My place on the team is as a developer and facilitator, and so I choose to act rather than debate. If you notice there are currently more updates being made on a regular basis, and a larger focus on bug repairs. The development team has also grown significantly and a back log of projects is currently being worked through (no less than 10 current on going projects are underway). There are times I feel the need to say what's on my mind, and I do so, but mostly I just focus on the work at hand. Lately though one thing has been eating at me, and that is the way people seem to not care if they are rude to others here. I don't think it's helpful at all. Even if they post an idea that is spot on and very helpful, when they do it while disparaging other players the benefit of that idea is not fully realized. So, yes, civility is very important, and often more important than the idea itself.

That was particularly well said. I'd have to agree. Say what needs to be said, but do it respectfully. That will get us a lot further than getting irate with each other.

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Sometimes it's alright to be angry on the forums, and a little less civil. But those times are so incredibly rare that most people won't ever encounter them. What's important is to ensure that priorities are in place, compromise is never taken off the table, and that if you absolutely have to get angry over something, make sure it's a battle worth fighting.

In most cases, and in the recent example, I would say it wasn't.

I don't think so Hackums. I do agree that its alright to be angry or mad or passionate, however, anger and civility are not opposite sides of the same coin. You can be angry/passionate/furious and still be civil.

poor example: You couldn't be more wrong you moron! What I said was the right way to handle it, what you said was stupid and idiotic!

good example: I completely disagree with you. I think the best way of handling the situation is to do so just how I laid it out. I do not think that the way you laid it out will work at all.

best example: I completely disagree with you. I think the best way of handling the situation is to do it so just how I laid it out because (supplied example or reason). I do not thing the way you laid it out will work at all because (supplied example or reason).

Yes, but- Sometimes civility is ignored. This is shown in the real world by the examples of civil rights movements and things. In smaller communities, there are voices that go unheard and disrespected, too. (Obviously not to the same degree. It's a dramatic example.) In some cases people deserve to be able to express the feelings that creates, as long as it's not directly insulting. Your examples give no room for feelings and for discussion on the deeper side of the human experience, msheeler. I love the logical structure, but it's unrealistic to expect humans to ignore half of their brain (their feelings and impulses) and is why America has an amendment of free speech.

That doesn't mean I support the nasty things said in this thread (I don't), but I would hazard you from trying to encourage a posting style that disregards someone's feelings so dismissively as the examples you gave. Not to mention players are not always given the information to be able to defend their possible opinion- players are the underprivileged comparatively.

I never said don't express your feelings. What I said was to treat each other with respect. If a person can not express their feelings respectfully, then they should step away from the conversation. My examples were kept simple, but I think the point they made was clear... and none of this is really a matter of free speech, its a matter of respecting the people you are interacting with. This is a tiny, tiny niche in the world, and if people can not be respectful to others here, then they should go somewhere else.

But there's the rub. The second we call ourselves capable of defining some "behaviour" wanted or unwanted, it's a step down a slippery slope fraught with unintended and unneeded monitoring and moderating. These restrictions should only apply for the most extreme cases of abuse, not for an accumulation of minor offences and insubordination, because there's no evidence of insubordination to begin with or then it rests on shaky ground. By saying that someone's style or tone or way of expression isn't appreciated here, we enforce behaviour that is normative by our own amorphous standards. At best it succeeds in establishing a more polite or civil environment where people, who would otherwise come off as somewhat overbearing, either change their behaviour of their own accord privy to the norms upheld by the community, or they (a) openly and directly disagree with your definitions of civility and politeness repeatedly, or (b) completely miss your point, either not understanding the enforcement or the need thereof.

If we really want to moderate how freely (or unfreely) people are allowed to express themselves on the forum, I'd strongly suggest coming up with a set of rules for that with the reasons itemized point by point. My personal opinion of the matter is that behaviour on the forums should be controlled as humanly little as possible in order to avoid having to appraise what kind of behaviour we want to see here; on the one hand, the morality of it is infinitely problematic in itself, on the other, it entails a laborious process of coming up with rules all the DMs are happy to enforce, all for very little result. More control will enforce more norms and smother the rich diversity of personalities here on Amia, some of which if we cannot for one reason or another appreciate, we should at the very least learn to tolerate and accept despite their proven lack of tact.

I'm not implying that certain people should deserve "positive discrimination" on account of their personal merits. I'm saying that deciding what kind of behaviour is or isn't welcome here without clearly defined ground rules for everyone to knowingly abide by is a dangerous path to tread.

EDIT: Also, banning someone would demand a degree of control from me, which I would never wish to have to hang over someone I didn't actually know. How can you (in the general sense of you; anyone) know how important this community is to someone, and how can you put stock in your wisdom to make that estimation and decide if that person is no longer fit for us? You'd have to measure the relevance of our values against the importance of the community to the person being banned, and the latter is something we cannot possibly know. Someone might be somehow dependent on us, and the ban might be detrimental to that person's life. I would take making such decisions with utmost seriosity and sensibility, because you never know how much you can hurt someone.

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Every time you clock in the morning, I feel you just want to kill
All my innocence while ignoring my purpose to persevere as a better person
I know you heard this and probably in fear
-Kendrick Lamar, good kid

You seem to be under the impression that I or The DM Team as a unit is saying that we will begin banning people over being what we consider to be rude, and that is not the case. I am encouraging, suggesting, that people treat each other with respect and when I see that they aren't I am saying that I intend to call them out for being rude. That's it.

If you were implying that this is why Iron was banned and bringing up that issue then I will tell you flat out that he was not banned for being rude, it was a matter beyond simple rudeness.

I guess I'm implying that there are issues underlying the current forum rules, their enforcement, and their relation to bans. They're all this tangled skein, seeming very relevant to each other, or at least relevant enough to have a conversation about. I understand that my interpretation of the situation is highly speculative, implicit and devoid of any fact to refer to, but if I want to criticise the current system, which I think exerts arbitrary control over the player, I sort of have to talk out of my arse to talk about it at all. I have very little knowledge about what actually happened with Iron, so I'm not making any direct remarks to him. I can only make half-assed assumptions, and I suppose he lives in them somewhat.

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Every time you clock in the morning, I feel you just want to kill
All my innocence while ignoring my purpose to persevere as a better person
I know you heard this and probably in fear
-Kendrick Lamar, good kid