A lot has certainly been done. Requests and evil RP chances (vampires) being the biggest. Certainly some DMs are more active, but they've also had a recent flux of retirement too. Nivo, Glim, Silent, Analog, Hudson to name five off the bat. Righteous is on hiatus and so are a few others in more subtle ways. They still need to promote a few more people for it to be the balance originally intended, and the work still needs to be done on the underlying issues of communication and the way to establish an OOC lounge or some way of handling the OOC side of what was asked for.

And I may be wrong, but I assume Yoss is disappointed because the list gorgometh put together in the first post said that bans and transparency were being looked at by the Team as a whole, Amarice, and that we would get updates as a playerbase- which has not happened. Yoss had to beg it out of you and Alanna/Burning are the lone wolves giving the players true transparency. STGS and Mercedes to an extent, too!

It is actually in reference to a very specific permanent ban. What you bring up is a concern all the same, but not what had me disappointed.

I'm with Yoss on this one. Unless there are factors beyond what came up at the meeting, punishing Kawaiian and his group at all seemed very unfair, nevermind permabanning them.

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Currently playing:
Aven Brinyflask
Safaya Dalai
Riyit
Chsera Hile

(Credits to Raua for the sprite, sauce -here-.)

Oh, right on! I was wrong and right at the same time! I agree with those two on that point, too. Let the cheaters come back and try to cheat again- we need people who want to play with us more than we need to permaban everyone who may break rules that we don't like.

The thing is, they didn't knowingly cheat. The exploit they used was incredibly easy to do by accident. In fact, the DMs (at least the ones present) didn't even know about it until the cheaters themselves figured it out and told them.

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Currently playing:
Aven Brinyflask
Safaya Dalai
Riyit
Chsera Hile

(Credits to Raua for the sprite, sauce -here-.)

I do not know much about their case, so I was not referring to them. I am actually observing the DM Team desire for us not to discuss the specifics of bans on the forums, so I hope they recognize I am doing a little dance while evading misinformation at the same time.

I strongly disagree with this. I am not willing to spend my time having to watch over players who will take advantage of such things knowingly to gain a upper hand.

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Life should be prolonged only when it serves the greater cause of the death of the world.

Well a thing to consider here is are our bans punishment or discipline. Temporary bans are likely intended as discipline, in the hopes that the player won't do whatever action lead to the ban in the first place, be it cheating, misconduct, what have you. A permanent ban is more of a punishment, as there is no further attempt being made to rehabilitate the player or get them back into the mix of things. There's reason and good instances for both to be used. But my guess is we need to investigate what we feel deserves one or another as a community.

At this time there are players who have been punished(permabanned) and some of their peers feel the case would have been better handled through discipline, if anything was warranted at all. What I recall is permabans are used for "repeat offenders," but certainly habitual loitering shouldn't land you with a life sentence, simply because the cops got tired of dealing with you. And certainly not when no one else seemed to make a huge deal out of the perceived offense(s) in the first place.

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I think that's a great point to make, DI. It's not only up to you, Silke. isn't that what this thread's whole point was? Focusing on player-first leadership? If players think some should be revisited, how come it can't be discussed (in a proper manner)?

Then you should abdicate your position in favor of someone with a less dogmatic and more pragmatic approach.

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bad man

But some crimes require more DM attention to deal with and more over sight of watching over them to make sure they don't try and do it again such as cheating, duping items, muling......ect where as cases like say Metagaming NPCs...ect you can just vito it and say it never happened.

A few cases come to mind, like when the bug that was exploited that when mass clicked nonstop could spawn tome of mystras and said person slowly flooded the server with them, they knew they were exploiting when they did it and the DMs has to waste tons of time tracking them all down to see what ones were legit or not, and if the players traded for them...ect That in my mind is worth perma banning because the man hours wasted correcting what they did.

You can use in game items to glitch bosses and solo them safely if a person was caught doing that I can only assume DMs would keep checking in on me to make sure they are not repeating it as the only evidence is if someone screenshots it or they catch said person..


So I can see where Silkelock is coming from, the investment of time to deal with the problem or watching them like a hawk after to ensure they cant/wont pull it again because it takes away from running events,watching RP... or what ever the DM is doing, in effect punishing the law abiding players by having to spend so much time on the unlawful ones...

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================-<Cory ShadowFlame>-================
Risenlord-Shifter(OMG a Non-Dragon Shifter that can hold his own in PvE)

Unfair, and unhelpful......


history is doomed to repeat itself it seems. :/

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I Am:
Derrin: 'Nothing to see here'
Beck: Hard working dwarf paladin.
Naela 'Widow': Wandering priestess.
Celinor Triellian: Paladin of Corellon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07So_lJQyqw




You're right, some offenses do require different levels of response, this particularly alluded event is the unintentional [and very compliant once brought up] issue of the shifters, whom even had a fair explanation as to why they were doing what they were. They were almost entirely outright banned without further word and the ones that did try to repeal were treated with a stone wall response "try again next year", even if their "crime" was small and resolved.

When I say pragmatic I mean looking at a situation like that and realizing that group created roleplay for SO many people, and they were on the cusp of organizing a much more cohesive and formulated system to further provide for the server what it has not only historically lacked, but condemned. "Biting the hand that feeds" There is a rich history of Amia doing away with conflict in favor of the babydoll socialite RP that proliferates the server.

The draconian response was to ban these people, the pragmatic response would've been to provide them with tools and supervision to let them provide for the server in a way that far surpasses the variance allowed in DM -> PC plots.

As for investiture of time: Well, without breaking persona I'll bluntly say that you need to invest time to events before you can deviate time from them.

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bad man

This is simply untrue - the players that were banned had a history of exploiting mechanics. This history combined with using the mechanical advantage in PvP, thus directly cheating other players, is why their ban is permanent rather than temporary. And they did realize the exploit, from all the screenshots I've seen of the incident. Our server rule is still that individual bans are not discussed in public, and I won't be commenting further other than to correct the misinformation

The rule itself is a tricky double-edged sword. While it can be understandably frustrating to not know why someone (especially a friend) was banned or to be able to have a discussion with the staff about it, the reason we do it is to protect people's privacy and to prevent spreading more ill will towards players. Remember that it's often not just the person who is banned who would be affected by making it public - there are also the people who reported it or who were victims of an abuse, who might feel forced to defend themselves to the community at large, and a million other factors.

And please watch your tone, OTR. I appreciate differing viewpoints but keep it civil.

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This was sent to the staff on Feb. 12th. These are the truths that are shadowed by the lack of transparency. I can't see how this group of people after responding in such a way as this warranted anything other than an apology and assistance in their work.

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bad man

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Elwyn Sabel - Laura Jarshall - Mordoc Ebonhand

Discord: Bhaalorian#5715

Thanks for the emphasis, Richard_Edmund. I'm sure all these past perceived offenses are as cut and dry as this one.

Probably not. But hey, do the crime, do the time as they say.

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Elwyn Sabel - Laura Jarshall - Mordoc Ebonhand

Discord: Bhaalorian#5715

now that we've established that the dms aren't perfect and that the whole story doesn't get aired. let's next look at the crime fitting the punishment.

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bad man

Yeah, because the DMs have a history of aptly punishing their playerbase. Like permanently banning people for merely speaking their mind in a civil manner (See: IronAngel).

IronAngel was far from civil in voicing his opinions.

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Elwyn Sabel - Laura Jarshall - Mordoc Ebonhand

Discord: Bhaalorian#5715

whatever you say champ.

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bad man

IronAngel was only banned from the forums, and that was because he would crap on people who disagree with him and be completely rude. He can log into the sever in game any time he wants. You can have a conversation without this down with the proletariat style bashing.

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Gerald Edmund
Discord: Metal Viking Guy #5433

DC taxation is theft!

Aw, Iron. If that's who Yoss was speaking to I get it. That one makes me especially sad. Times have changed and are definitely more harsh in a way. I still get your points, though, Alanna. There's a lot we don't see and it would most definitely change some opinions. I tend to think I still wouldn't be as harsh in a lot of circumstances, and the reason I challenge is because so many challengers have been banned or moved on for doing so (re: Iron- ha!). Someone had to pick up the slack. The server was and is sliding. I'm fine being the bad guy sometimes. I actually often wonder how close I am to being discussed for one myself...

But OTR, she is a nice one- so be nice.

Estara has the right of it in regards to the server. It's been happening slowly for years now, at a pace so gradual it hasn't hit a lot of people. I've seen it stated 'I don't understand why people say the old days were better' and I understand it, though to a point. When things were crazy, yeah that's just silly. But I came here in 2010 and things were jumping. We had players out the ass and everyone was contributing in a more or less positive atmosphere. Those were my 'good old days'. And then... something happened. I don't know what, perhaps it was some server changes (I remember a lot of people leaving when we messed with the economy), perhaps it was a change in the DMs, perhaps it was just people getting bored. I don't know.

But what I do know is that the DM team as a whole needs to be mindful how we progress. And that they need to be very careful with how they treat the players on this server. Slight one person and you risk loosing one if not more of their friends as well. It's been said before [by a DM] that Amia is run by a dictatorship and I believe that underscores part of the issue. No one is stuck here, and to be honest there are other servers out there that prove NWN is not a dying game. It saddens me to see what has happened to Amia, because I love this server. It's the only NWN server I have ever wanted to really play on. But something has to change. We have players being general asshats and berating others, and we have [apparently] little policing being done to protect people. I understand about the need for 'privacy', however things have to make sense at some point. We are not at the behest of the team leading the server, and what will happen when everyone is fed up and moves on? There won't be a server left, and where is the fun in that?

I'm not all doom and gloom about this, for I see positive change, but when I see the sort of OOC issues that I have over the past few months (there have been many, and more over the past couple of years), well... something has to change. Can't we all just work together to make Amia fun again? There seems to be no direction for the server anymore, the Reye's Plot was the driving force (for better or worse, not arguing on that) for so many years that with it gone... what's left?

I am tired of how Amia is turning out. I am tired of players hating on each other. I am tired of OOC cliques spurning others. I am tired of seeing the server become stagnant. I am just tired. But I am still hopeful. Please, let's make Amia fun and thriving again.

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Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming

A gentle warning: try to keep things from getting personal. Or, even if they don't get personal, from getting unnecessarily combative.

I'd like to point out that, given someone could read the tone of my post incorrectly, that the tone of my post is one of reason and caution. I don't want there to be any misunderstandings. I just want things to get fixed, even if we have to make difficult decisions.

@Yoss: This isn't directed at you, I figured you were making a general observation to everyone

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Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming

Eight adjectives that vest the DM Team with the authority to permaban anyone? I know we are meant to trust you guys, as you are part of the community and all that, but that there leaves the enforcement of these rules completely liable to arbitrary behaviour. Furthermore, there is no system which enables the playerbase to call into question the validity of your decisions, little of which are being shared with the playerbase by virtue of the very same rules. By referring to the rules, you plainly state the fact that you can do whatever you want.

You can always rationalise and validate your bans, and never be subjected to criticism that would allow us to hold you accountable for anything. When bans are being made, you refuse to discuss the situation at length with the person banned, and when someone is prying for more information, you flatly state that our message has been conveyed to the team for further discussion without ever returning to us about how the "complaint" has been handled. (Although truthfully, I've never actively asked for how they turned out.) Naturally in a community this small you're entitled to a more or less autocratic rule, but you also direly need our absolute vote of confidence for it to succeed. You, as DMs, should be more engaging with the players and bolder to speak your own mind, and to publicly disagree with your peers. It's ridiculous that you have to present yourselves like a united front like some newly elected government, as if everything being done behind the scenes was systematic and adhering to some common ideology and goal. Because you don't have to be - I can remember plenty of conversations and threads where the DMs have vehemently disagreed with each other, publicly or otherwise. You may, and indeed, you should, represent multifaceted and ambivalent ideals in order to highlight your individual authority over the collective authority of the DM Team. The confluence of the DM team and the rest of the playerbase, I believe, which will enshrine you with the aforementioned vote of confidence, is that you can freely express a greater diversity of opinion without the consent of your compatriots.

EDIT: Or then there is some other set of forum rules elsewhere and the one above is obsolete, whereupon you can ignore much of what I said.

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Every time you clock in the morning, I feel you just want to kill
All my innocence while ignoring my purpose to persevere as a better person
I know you heard this and probably in fear
-Kendrick Lamar, good kid

I think everyone is being a little careful, because the last time we had this discussion it went terribly for players and DM's alike. I know there are some people, myself included, who feel as if the wound in regards to these bans haven't yet been healed or properly addressed. But I'm too worried of causing further harm in addressing it. I don't think anyone here wants to upset the server, or the upbeat mood after all the positive changes that are going through.

I think the best message that can be delivered right now is that these old wounds still exist, and that at some point, when we're able as a community and staff-- they should be addressed. For the time being, I think we all just need to recognize the legitimacy of concerns and feelings on the subject.

But I'm not going to do any further than that, myself. Like Iron, I can get pretty passionate sometimes. And I don't want to be so adversarial again, to the extent I was.

IronAngel should never have been banned. I lost my faith in the DM team then, and decided to leave the server. Came back because I had friends here. Some of the DMs have kinda regained my trust but I still remember what you did.



You know better than to write this hypocritical trash.

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@Thanatopsis#6293

I'm sorry to say this but it I also find it ridiculous from the player side to demand this form of transparency. I mean, this is a game, you are not fighting with the government here but with people who spend their free time trying to bring more life to this game.
It is really hard to get a permaban here and those who received such probably worked hard to receive it. If anyone takes a game too seriously to begin a "freedom fight" against the DM team, addressing them as a collective body, then the person probably forgot the fact that they are also people, who are not here to ruin your day. If someone can get so frustrated about the game to become unreasonably rude or even abusive to the DMs and other players, then it is probably the best for person take a break for the sake of the community, because it not a healthy behavior.

The DM team is not an evil government and rules are there to protect players from abuses. We are just people here who are trying to have fun, while living our life.

People need to chill

It would be cool to enjoy the awesome stuff we got. I understand the past does shape the future and not to discount it, But we have an awesome server, team and playerbase as it is, Lets enjoy it!

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Xalibossk, Body Tamer & Terror Of The Underdark

Khuul should walk around and enforce chill!

Awesome stuff is great (and it is awesome) but it doesn't take away the underlying issues. There are uncomfortable things going on under the surface and they are just creating more and more issues for people. I just want to see things healed, and I think respect (player to player, player to DM, DM to player, and DM to DM) for others needs to be given all around.

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Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming

I get that part Naivatkal but there is a fair amount overreaction here too. Again, this just a game, not the real world.

It's certainly unnecessary to start a freedom fight, but one could say that walking around saying "chill out" and "relax" and "it's all so great" is just as damaging, because there are clearly things eating away at trust and communication and such in more than one player/DM. It should be a healthy in between.

Life is indeed too short to get stressed over things, Although its understandable with these frustrations and being at the meeting I can empathise with the concerns.

However, We can stare at these forums all day and say about the bad parts, Letting it seep in. Definately if theres concerns its been raised and with confidence they will get resolved.

Allowing the feelings from past experiences seep into todays enjoyment where we all come here to chill/conflict/politics/Hug a sheep isnt the most progressive thing.

We're all here to have fun, Lets enjoy the now, Have confidence in each other and the team. Worry less and play harder!

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Xalibossk, Body Tamer & Terror Of The Underdark

The one thing I truly miss about those who were in fact banned is that I believe they were very good RPers.

Without commenting on the Shifter thing(I don't know anything about it, thus consider it none of my business) I do believe that the absence of those players makes the server a bit less rich RP-wise. They knew their lore, and while my own last PvP instance with them wasn't very enjoyable on my end(RP after was, though) I believe that nobody was really out to ruin anything for anyone. As such I mourn them, even now!

With that said, I have faith in the masters of the dungeon. If they decide to allow the players a second chance, so be it! Everybody makes mistakes and do indeed learn from them. That goes for all sides, including me as a player! Everything aside, I think communication is very healthy and therefore appreciate this thread a lot.

Given some things might be misconstrued on my intentions I would like to make the statement that I am not talking about previous bans at all. I am talking about the rampant issue with our current server culture and the reaction (or lack thereof) from the team. I've stayed silent for a long time now, and I can't help but post now in an effort to curb what is happening and have everyone take a good hard look at what is going on.

Past issues are some of what I am concerned with, yes, but the greater problem is the issues I see occurring right now. That is what I am most concerned about, and the perceived attitudes that are given.

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Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming

I think everyone is relatively chill in this thread. It's just that some people have very strong personalities and communicate in a "high-powered tone", as Dwagin once coined. In fact if you look back you can read as I do that Silkelock's response is an escalation of tone (it sounds moody, whiny, and a little belligerent) that incurs OTR's blunt but otherwise calm response of "if you can't take the heat get out of the kitchen".

These kinds of interchanges can be uncomfortable for some people to read, especially when we all still have sore spots. And some people are more sensitive to the perceived sense of conflict than others, and thus it bothers them a lot more. As a moderator, I stepped in to say something because another player (thank you for letting us know!) flagged a post. It didn't warrant a shut down of the thread by any stretch as DMs used to do by this point, because sometimes you just have to let "the community" control itself until it gets really heated and a heavier moderator hand is needed. Thus far, it hasn't been, in my estimation, though I am probably the most lax moderator you have. If you shut down an interaction like that out of hand, you may let tempers cool for the moment but you rob the community of the chance to exercise deescalation.

The takeaway should be that progress has been made, and that the progress that has been made should be recognized and lauded in the very same breath that the persisting problems are pointed out, even if only to assauge the inevitable wounded ego. And that those persisting problems will not go away, and the playerbase is struggling to find a way to show the DM Team that they do not have to do it alone.

I agree with Yoss statement which is more diplomatic that my phrasing, which is just that progress has been made in some areas (which is great) although it came in no small part because of players voicing their issues, and that is how it should be. Issues aren't a condemnation in of themselves, they are simply issues and as such can be addressed and fixed. However the process only works when the issues still unresolved can be voiced openly, new issues come up and old ones can remain it is always an ongoing process, so transparency and communication from all sides is key.

I resonate with your sentiment almost entirely. The DMs' job is to protect the players and ensure a safe and enjoyable atmosphere for everyone.

But I wouldn't go as far as to claim that every ban enforced has been a ban well-deserved with regard to appropriate sensibility and responsibility expected from the position. The ability to revise past decisions made by you or other DMs is salient for the development and deeper understanding of our standards. Reasons have to be transparent and justified, (a) because we make mistakes, emotional and logical, and we should express the mutual will and effort to discuss them at least to some extent, and (b) because we are entitled to know what the reasons are behind the decisions concerning us. So we can rest assured we're in good hands. Of course not every decision has to undergo an in-depth analysis and not everything has to be spilled with the playerbase, but we need to at least understand the standards being enforced to us. Further, I'd like to point out, why not? Is it somehow difficult to communicate these things properly, for instance when someone is permabanned that you would go through the rationale with them and wish them good luck? A bit more pertinent and less touchy-feely point to make is that the server is for the players, so why not make sure they get to decide as well? Isn't that the best way to ensure we can play in a server we all appreciate? We are mature, capable and willing enough to discuss these matters openly to our heart's content. It's also certainly possible that my standards of decency would be wildly unmanageable for the server.

With the above in mind, the real question is what level of transparency should be maintained? In my humbledore, when tough questions are asked and someone refers to the server rules, I feel like they're just matter-of-factly saying that they don't have to explain it to us. The rules regarding forum behaviour are essentially a very strange authorization rather than any general guideline as to how you should treat us as players; we know you can ban anyone, but why? If there really were some statutes to tell us the exact law whereby we could peacefully and safely enjoy our RP, sure. I don't think that level of technicality is required, though, since it would be arduous and annoying for all, increasing the workload of everyone. Therefore, openness and good rapport are the key components of both the players' and the DMs' enjoyment.

I'm successfully blurring the line between forum rules, in-game rules and some unspecified functions of various unspecified members in some faraway unspecified circumstances, and although they're in many ways contingent upon each other, I guess I'm chiefly targetting the policy (policies?) regarding bans and then expanding to the dynamic of the whole server's decision-making. And Lutra, of course they're not an evil government, I said it's ridiculous to pretend that there were any "alignment" within the DM Team, because they're probably just as divided on many occasions as the playerbase itself is, and they should maintain a rapport by way of expressing their opinions freely.

EDIT: By the Queen and her beautiful children, this is chill. Do you not realise how authoritarian it would be to censor chill criticism? Much.

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Every time you clock in the morning, I feel you just want to kill
All my innocence while ignoring my purpose to persevere as a better person
I know you heard this and probably in fear
-Kendrick Lamar, good kid

Please do not think a ban is never reviewed by us. We have a few players who have been and given another chance. Bans have been reviewed regularly in the past. They always get reviewed when a person approaches us about it and asks for a review themselves. Some bans have been lifted that way. Others not.

This mostly depends on these factors:

1. How grave was it what they have been banned for? (what have they been banned for)

2. How risky is it to have it happen again? (could it put our players at risk? e.g. sexual haressment, stalking; could it harm our server? e.g. hacking)

3. How did they approach the review? Mainly how did they act, did they seem to understand why they have been banned?

4. How many "second chances" did they have already?

5. Did they try to circumvent their ban? How often? When?

6. To a smaller degree: Were they minors when they did it and by phrasing and acting seem to now have come past the "troll" phase.

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Sorry, I guess it was implied there. That's good to know, though. I'd suggest replying something to the person who's asked for the review whether or not it bore any fruit.

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Every time you clock in the morning, I feel you just want to kill
All my innocence while ignoring my purpose to persevere as a better person
I know you heard this and probably in fear
-Kendrick Lamar, good kid

From my experience, when a person asks for a review of their ban the DM team at least gives it a talk over on the forums and provides a reply to the player. Though in some rare cases I suppose, replies get lost in the waves of PM's.

The DM team doesn't (Again, from my own experience), review bans on their own, however. Bans are only ever reviewed when the player comes to the staff and asks for it. But this breeds a certain problem, in my opinion-- and I was just as guilty of it when I was a staff member, I'm sure.

The problem, as I see it, is when pride clashes against pride it always errs in favor of the DM team decision. It is always expected of the player to be regretful and sympathetic to the reason he was banned-- which is a fair and just criteria in most cases! However, if the DM team legitimately made an error in their judgment there are times that the player will be unwilling to say "Sorry" for something he or she feels was an unjust ban. When that player isn't willing to apologize, (in my experience) the DM has a problematic tendency to refuse consideration that they might have been in the wrong.

As a former DM, I know how difficult it can be to look back at previous decisions by staff members (And especially my own decisions) and say, "I was wrong," or "They were wrong." Because when I do say that, it feels like I'm in a way dismantling the very legitimacy that I once acted upon. It's so easy to get into that mentality-- but it can have a detrimental effect on player discipline and punishment, especially.



As a disclaimer, please-please-please understand that I'm not attacking the staff here. What I'm trying to do by this post is highlight a systemic flaw and a trend that would occur in any organization.

I think one of the ways to help break the incentives to unconsciously build the mentality that the DM team as a whole always has to be right is to do as Opustus suggested earlier-- by having more individualized DM opinions being made, and less of a need to have a "united-front" voice at all times.

I thought it was very well said, Hackums.

Is it possible to re-combine the servers, with the lower player counts and faster processors? It seems like it would solve some of the problems in the OP, and other problems.

I searched around and didn't find a discussion of this but I've been gone for a while and haven't been reading the forum.

It's long been on my mind, and it's perhaps, possible, but would take an extraordinary amount of effort. I'm not saying no, but it's not something that can just be a snap of the fingers.

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a.k.a. Audrey Zinata